Festool Circular Saw? Something else?

[Dave Avery]

All,

I do a fair amount of veneer work these days, most of the time on a 3/4" MDF substrate. I usually rip and crosscut oversized veneered panels to final size, then apply simple or decorative edge treatments.

Anyway, my 40T WWII does a fine job with cutting the panels to size - on the top side. On the bottom side, I get quite a bit of tear-out and chipping of the veneer. This is OK for most applications such as a table top where nobody will see the bottom. There are times, however, when I want to be able to use both sides.

Potential solutions...... a Felder with a scoring saw - a little more than I care to spend. An 80T ply/melamine blade....... opinions? Also, in an effort to have an excuse to buy another cool Festool tool, has anybody tried cutting veneer with the Festool circular saw? It would have the added benefit of making wide crosscuts much easier as well. Other ideas?

Thanks...... Dave.

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Dave

I used my Festool circular saw for ripping and crosscutting birch veneer plywood for a furniture project. The side under the guide was flawless (as flawless as anything can be) on both rip and cross cuts. The other side was much better than I expected, although it does not have the benefit of the guide holding the wood fibers tight against the substrate. I will hobble up to the shop after lunch and see what the bottom side looks like, but if I recall, it was an excellent finish.

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi again Dave

I went up to the shop and dug a scrap out of the bin. I don't know if this will be good enough for you to make a decision, but I can try and get a better angle if you like.

<img src="http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/festoolkerf01.jpg">

This is (I think) the underside of the off cut, probably the worst of the cut surfaces. The little bits of fuzz that you see would most likely come off completely with a fine piece of sandpaper and a light pass or two.

<img src="http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/festoolkerf02.jpg">

This is the other side of the off cut, and the cut is even cleaner. The few bits of fuzz you see are actually on the other edge. As you can see by the grain, this is not strictly with or against the grain, but I think it serves to illustrate the kind of cuts I am getting with this saw. I went straight to a glue joint with the edge banding, which was a solid piece of birch molding I made, with no sanding, or other fussing with the edges.

One of the huge advantages to this saw and its setup with the rails is exactly the kind of cuts I had to make to build this piece. The job called for an irregularly shaped trapezoid platform for a big screen TV. The one side was 44" deep and the other was 18" deep. There was no way I was going to push a piece of this shape through my unisaw, and I do not know if I would be able to do it with the Minimax I have coming. The cut took a matter of minutes with the Festool saw, and the measurements when I was done were off by less than 1/64" with what the computer drawing calculated. That was close enough for me. ;)

Bill

[Ron Meadows]

Dave,

I have a pair of WWII blades. I've found that when the bottom of the cut starts to splinter a little that it's time for a visit to the Forrest sharpening doctors. One other possible cause could be pitch build up on the sides of your blade.....any crap on there and the glass cut that a WWII usually provides begins to suffer.

You may be having neither of these problems, but I've seen similar results caused by them. Just something for you to check out before goin tool shoppin'


Ron

[Jim Becker]

I have a pair of WWII blades. I've found that when the bottom of the cut starts to splinter a little that it's time for a visit to the Forrest sharpening doctors. One other possible cause could be pitch build up on the sides of your blade.....any crap on there and the glass cut that a WWII usually provides begins to suffer.

I very much agree with Ron on this...sharpness makes a big difference and I've always gotten a clean cut with the WW-II, especially when sharp. To add to it, a "fresh" zero-clearance insert is also helpful with critical veneered cuts. The tighter the slot, the less chance of tear-out.

Of course...who are we to discourage you from buying a new tool??!!
:D

[JayStPeter]

I agree with the blade sharpening and ZC insert suggestions
But, I've got 2 ideas of things I've done in the past. Unfortunately, neither involves purchasing new tools.

First, the old masking tape trick. Should take up whatever sharpening and ZC don't.

Second, run the piece through with the blade really low for a scoring cut, then run it again for the through cut. This does require much raising and lowering of the blade. But, you're probably not running hundreds (or even tens) of these veneered panels through at any given time that need to be good on both sides. If you are, I vote for the Felder.

I can't really see the Festool being a better solution than a well tuned table saw with a quality blade. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have the Festool rig and am not discouraging you from getting one.

Jay

[Dave Avery]

Thanks guys...... your thoughts and time (particularly Bill for taking the shots), are greatly appreciated. Masking tape and a zero clearance insert cost nothing..... I'll try them first. It's probably time for a sharpening, so I'll do that after the holiday gift making season when I do without the blade. If all else fails, I'll try the Festool - I can always return it if it doesn't work. A Felder is an entirely different story.....

Thanks again. Dave.

PS I think the new Jim Becker avatar is the best yet :)

[Todd Burch]

I will chime in with Jay St. Peter's 2nd suggestion - lowering the blade until only about 1/16th" to 3/32" is exposed. I use this technique ALL the time. Even with a dull blade, you can get an excellent cut with zero chip out, even on junk plywood with micro-thin veneers, ripping AND crosscutting. As Jay says - it takes 2 passes, but when it has to be perfect, and you have no other way to do it, it will work every time. Also, try not to set a land speed record when pushing your stock through.

I don't use the masking tape technique, as it just seems like a "grab" waiting to happen. I have used masking tape before, and the cut went OK, but pulling the stupid tape off took wood fibers with it, so I might have just as well not used it.

Primarily, I use a saw blade designed for cutting delicate veneers. It has 80T (I think) and has a negative rake. Works great.

Oh, and no zero-clearance insert is required either for the above technique. The only time I use a zero-clearnance insert is when working with thin stock that would otherwise fall between by blade and my tablesaw's stock metal insert.

The only material I can think of that has not performed well with this technique is cheap cheap cheap white particle board melamine.

[Bill Grumbine]

I can't really see the Festool being a better solution than a well tuned table saw with a quality blade. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have the Festool rig and am not discouraging you from getting one.

Jay

Hi Jay

I can see the Festool being a good solution over the TS with a well tuned blade for a number of reasons. First, as I mentioned in my post above, there is the issue of cutting odd shapes. Second is not having to horse a huge panel through the saw. Third is not having to worry about some unseen grit or other object either on the surface of the saw or the panel causing a big scratch along the panel while it is being shoved through the saw. I regularly run large pieces through my unisaw, and I get a glue joint quality cut off the blade, but since I bought the Festool, I can't see putting plywood through it again. It is so much easier to handle the material, with a lot less operator strain, and in some instances, it is also faster to set up for the cuts.

That is not to say that your methods don't work because they do. I use the lowered blade method for dados with good results.

Bill

[Gene Collison]

Hi Jay

I can see the Festool being a good solution over the TS with a well tuned blade for a number of reasons. First, as I mentioned in my post above, there is the issue of cutting odd shapes. Second is not having to horse a huge panel through the saw. Third is not having to worry about some unseen grit or other object either on the surface of the saw or the panel causing a big scratch along the panel while it is being shoved through the saw. I regularly run large pieces through my unisaw, and I get a glue joint quality cut off the blade, but since I bought the Festool, I can't see putting plywood through it again. It is so much easier to handle the material, with a lot less operator strain, and in some instances, it is also faster to set up for the cuts.

That is not to say that your methods don't work because they do. I use the lowered blade method for dados with good results.

Bill

Bill,

I would have to agree with you. I have the small Festool 55E plunge saw, it has quickly become my favorite tool for cutting sheet goods. I have cut Melamine and Oak veneer ply repeatedly with excellent results and no tearout. And better than my WWII blades, it's been more reliable. The only sheet goods I cut with the tablesaw anymore are small parts. I set the blade so it just peaks through the bottom and you got it, couldn't be easier.

Gene

[JayStPeter]

Bill,

I agree with pretty much everything you said. As I mentioned in my post, I'd like to have a festool setup. In fact, it is on my short list of tools to get specifically for the reasons you mentioned.
I just meant the quality of cut. It seems Dave is doing the "fairly simple" job of trimming a panel to a perfect rectangle. Nothing odd or oversized. I don't think this requirement alone leads to the necessity to part with the money when there is a perfectly good tablesaw around.

Dave,
I partially agree with Todd. I have had more consistent results with the scoring cut method than the tape method. Slow feed rate is also key (think how fast your planer takes in wood). But frankly, I haven't had to use either method since I got a WWII and ZC insert. Unlike Todd, I think the ZC insert is the key to consistently good cuts with little tearout. I have made 7 or 8 inserts now. Each is labeled with which blade it supports or the dado setup it supports. I very rarely don't use a ZC insert anymore.

Jay

[Jim Becker]

I think the ZC insert is the key to consistently good cuts with little tearout.

The ZC insert provides support for the fibers right up to the edge of the cut (when it's new) and with a sharp blade, should normally be all one needs to get a very clear cut. Scoring first with this setup will even decrease the chance of tearout!

[Byron Trantham]

Dave, I use a circular saw to divide and conquer large panels. In the past I used a cheap carbide blade and of course the edges were terrible. Someone this forum talked about a Forrest Duraline Hi-A/T for a circular saw. I bit the bullet and paid the $100 for it. Well what can I say, I can cut melamine with no chip out! While I used to add 1/4" or more to allow for chip-outd, now I can cut to the final dimension reducing one more step in construction. I can't saw enough about this blade.

[Gene Collison]

Interesting all the different methods of getting through a piece of veneer or melamine. 2 or 3 Forrest blades and 7 or 8 ZC inserts and your already in Festool pricing . And it's still harder and less reliable than cutting with the Festool. A Forrest circular blade and a decent PC circular saw and your up to $220 plus tax or S/H and your not even close to Festool plunge saw capabilities and versatility.

Gene

[Dave Avery]

Thanks again guys...... even if the sharp blade / ZC insert / scoring process works, a new Festool saw really would be nice for those long crosscuts :)

Really appreciate all the time and effort answering my questions.... this is truly an excellent source of information and, more importantly, a fine group of people. Dave.