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Jim Summers
02-16-2007, 10:23 AM
Hello All,

I have been toying around with the idea of getting a new cabinet saw. Actually started looking last year, but after the old central A/C decided to give it up I had to divert funds.

Anyways at that time I was looking at Delta X5 Unisaws. Now after finding this forum last fall, it seems that deltas are not held in the high esteem as they used to be. It seems that SawStop and PM2000 are the ones most talked about.

Unfortunately the budget isn't going to allow for a SawStop. So, I am looking at the under 3k group.

Does anyone know of some online reviews of cabinet saws? The reviews posted by people that have purchased a particular saw (pm2000 or unisaw) seem pretty similar in that they can have manufacter defects and setup is sometimes more painful than necessary.

The pm2000 has the built-in retractable wheels vs. the delta needs a base (extra cost). But then it seems that the accessories for pm2000 are not there, such as fold down outfeed table, etc.

Opinions welcomed.

TIA

Jim Becker
02-16-2007, 10:28 AM
The features and price of the PM2K make it a very attractive option. For just over $2K, you get a very capable machine with mobility, riving knife and better dust collection all built in. As to the outfeed table...you should build your own, anyway. There is one plan for the same on my web site and many other variations available to you.

David Wambolt
02-16-2007, 10:37 AM
I own a Sawstop but almost bought the PM2000. If I were to do it any other way, I'd have that saw. The dealer I purchased my Sawstop from said at their four locations they did have several returns on the PM2000 due to problems. Many issues related to the wheel system where the used the bevel or blade height adjustment wheel instead of installing a dedicated one. They said they felt it was a good saw but recommended to potential customers they wait for some of the smaller bugs to be worked out.

I don't think you'd be disappointed in the PM2000.

Ted Miller
02-16-2007, 10:42 AM
Jim, Are you dead set on new, have you looked around for slightly used like craigslist and auctions. With a little fine tune slightly used will last a lifetime...

Rob Bodenschatz
02-16-2007, 11:10 AM
I'm happy with my PM2000. The retractable casters and riving knife are great features. Even if you aren't going to be moving the saw around much, having the casters is nice for those times when you do need to move it. The riving knife is great for reducing the likelyhood of kickback & only a few US saws offer it now (the SawStop has one as well). Every once & a while Amazon offers free shipping on it. Wait for that if you wanna save $199.

As far as accessories go, Jim's right, build your own outfeed. In fact, make your own ZCIs as well. Not sure what other accessories you'd need that can't be built quickly & cheaply.

BTW, from what I've heard & seen, you can't go wrong with the SawStop either. Just be prepared to pay more.

Kyle Kraft
02-16-2007, 11:22 AM
I checked out the Extrema saw from a link on SMC somewhere, and based on the photos, it looks pretty nice.

3 belt drive 50" fence, "four bolt mains" on the trunnion brackets and a box-style trunnion like the old Powermatic.

I have a Jet cabinet saw which doesn't merit high regards in many discussions, but I love it, and it works well for me.

Mike Goetzke
02-16-2007, 11:47 AM
Hello All,


Anyways at that time I was looking at Delta X5 Unisaws. Now after finding this forum last fall, it seems that deltas are not held in the high esteem as they used to be.


Wow - this is news to me.

BTY you can get the Delta 36-L31X-51BC for under $1700 curb-side delivery.

-or-

36-L31X-U50 for under $1550 delivered.

(right tilts are about $100 cheaper)

both at toolsplus dot com

wayne ateser
02-16-2007, 12:04 PM
Wow - this is news to me.

BTY you can get the Delta 36-L31X-51BC for under $1700 curb-side delivery.

-or-

36-L31X-U50 for under $1550 delivered.

(right tilts are about $100 cheaper)

both at toolsplus dot com
and it will cut cucumbers

Kyle Kraft
02-16-2007, 12:08 PM
Yes, but how well does it cut hot dogs? I hear some fancy saws can't cut 'em very well.:D

Mike Goetzke
02-16-2007, 1:48 PM
and it will cut cucumbers

...and fingers if you don't use safe shop practices/precautions.

Actually since I purchased a blade guard that is easy to use (Shark Guard) I seldom make cuts w/o one and I always use a splitter for all through cuts. In other situations where I can't use the Shark I'll use a pair of Grippers.

Mike Hill
02-16-2007, 3:58 PM
Jim: I have the Grizzly 1023SL left tilt, 3hp, 220Volt single phase cabinet saw. They also have a 5HP model if you need it for slightly more. I use the WoodworkerII blade for most cuts. It sells for $1,175 plus shipping and tax. I have had it since last May and once set up accurately it has performed in an excellent manner. I will never upgrade unless I hit the lottery and even then would probably only go for the Sawstop due to a little more safety. I added a large outfeed table and sled for cutting panels and a Biesemyer splitter (I now make my own for each blade). Ask around, I think you will find that the more expensive tools from Grizzly are well respected.

Here are some pictures and more discussion

Mike
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=386217#post386217

Gary Keedwell
02-16-2007, 6:05 PM
Went to woodworking show last month and checked out the Steel City saw. Looked real nice with that titanium top. It was alot flatter then my Unisaw. My Unisaw top didn't look very good when I put my Starrett 4 foot straight-edge on it. Eckkkkkkkk:(

http://www.cjohnhebert.com/sawspin.gif Gary K.

Jim Summers
02-17-2007, 11:35 AM
Thanks all,

From what I am reading it sure seems that the saws I am looking at will all be good saws. Everyone seems happy with the saw they use. After the setup that is.

Does anyone have experience tuning different saws? I am currently using an old dewalt 2.5 hp contractor saw that is very painful to adjust. It is a direct drive system and it seems the blade is out of alignment with the miter slot and the rip fence has never been a joy to work with. It was gifted to me and has served well, but I have definitely outgrown it.

I wonder if I will see a noticeable difference between 2.5hp and 3hp? Should I really be looking at the 5hp models?

And then the quality of materials is the thing I think will annoy me over the years, table surface not flat, etc...

My current setup for dust collection is just hooking up my shop vac hose to the tool in use.

Thanks again.

David Wambolt
02-17-2007, 12:11 PM
A 3hp cabinet saw should be more than enough for most all home shops. Now having said that, I bought a 5hp Sawstop. Why? Because I was already spending a large amount of money on the saw, so another $200 wasn't going to make or break the deal. Do I need 5hp? No. Also direct drive saws can sometimes be rated in developed horsepower and not actual horse power.

I would decide if you want a riving knife. If so, look at the PM2000. Accessories as you say are limited, but building an outfeed table is a fun project and allows you to configure it to fit your space. If not, I'd look at the Grizzly 10" cabinet saw as a bang for the buck purchase. Steel City also offers a very nice 10" cabinet saw. You have a lot of choices out there, but if it were my money and the Sawstop was out of the budget, I'd buy the 3hp Powermatic PM2000 with 52" extension. It has new school upgrades like multi-rib belts and the riving knife. Plus it's been reviewed well in most cases and usually it's the wheel system that knocks it down.

Dave Falkenstein
02-17-2007, 12:15 PM
...From what I am reading it sure seems that the saws I am looking at will all be good saws. ......Should I really be looking at the 5hp models?...

Jim - I think that you are correct - you will get a mighty fine saw no matter which one you select in the cabinet saw class - it is very hard to make a bad decision. I chose Jet myself, several years ago, and have been totally happy.

I assume you are a home shop woodworker. You should be perfectly happy with a 3HP cabinet saw. Whatever you choose, be certain it uses single phase power.

Jim Summers
02-17-2007, 12:43 PM
Yep the PM2000 has definitely moved into the top 2-3. You mentioned the wheel system? Is that the retractible wheels for moving it, or the heighth adjustment? I will need to move the unit around and I like how the PM is built in doesn't have any undersaw obstructions as opposed to a mobile base. I will be on a concrete slab so that helps with it raising up only 3/16 or so. Anyone have input on how well tuned the PM is out of the box? How difficult is it to tune?

I have always wondered about my current saws hp. Even when ripping some 6/4 pine it really bogs down. I will definitely make sure it is the single phase as you recommend.

Thanks again

David Wambolt
02-17-2007, 1:12 PM
Most people seemed to be fairly happy with how well tuned the PM2000 is out of the box, but every saw is going to be different. A PM2000 owner can chime in on adjustments.

When I bought my Sawstop, the dealer also sold Powermatic tools. I originally was interested in either the PM66 or a Delta Unisaw. However after doing my research and learning more about cabinet saws, my two primary choices became the PM2000 or a Sawstop. I was 90% set on the PM2000 until I actually went and looked at the Sawstop. The dealer told me that the PM2000 had some issues and they had several returns at their four locations. The Sawstops had a flawless track record at their location. Mind you, this was a zero pressure dealer and I walked around in the showroom for over an hour looking at equipment without anyone bugging me. As soon as I went up to the counter, they answered all of my questions. So they didn't ignore me, just let me look, touch, and gather information. Just the way I like it.

The PM2000 issue seemed to be with the caster system and I don't know much more than that. I believe the front hand wheel has two positions. One to raise and lower the blade and the other to raise and lower the wheels. It could be the bevel wheel - again not positive. They said if Powermatic had done a dedicated wheel just for raising and lowering the saw, it would have been near perfect.

I still would buy the saw if the casters were the only minor issue. All told I really liked the Sawstop and went that direction. I can honestly say that outside of the added safety of the Sawstop, I am positive I would have been completely satisified with the PM2000. I was going to buy one with the 52" extension and router lift all in one. The riving knife alone is a big step forward in safety.

As for Single or 3-Phase, 3-Phase motors are typically better. However most residential and even many commercial spaces do not have 3-phase power available. Single phase is the easiest and most cost effective for home shop equipment, not that single phase makes a motor perform better than 3-phase. If I had a professional shop, most of my equipment would be 3 phase. That might make single phase sound bad, but it's just dandy too. I only own one piece of 3 phase equipment and use an AC Drive to gain full variable speed over the 3 phase motor, along with braking.

Roy Fleming
02-17-2007, 4:32 PM
I have a 3hp all north american made General 350 and could not be happier. Quiet, flat table and very good fit & finish. The only negative is the dust collection could be better. Some people shy away from this saw because ther are not may dealers but with the internet, if you need something it is not a problem.