Minimax CU 410 Elite dilemma - need your help?

[Stan Cope]

Hello all, I’ve been mostly lurking in the shadows here at the creek for some time now and haven’t felt the urge to make a real post here until now. I have a big dilemma/involved question. I have pretty much decided that a Minimax CU 410 Elite is in my future but haven’t quite convinced my accountant/LOML as of yet. Being a cost conscious individual I also have concerns about investing in such a large item and have been looking in the used market, ebay, exfactory, craigslist, woodweb, forums, want ads, etc to see if anything shows up. I have found a few smaller units but only one 410 and it was over 1500 miles away and it was priced very near its original sales price and there in lies my question. What are you thoughts on buying a used combo machine? Do they really hold their resale value like that? These machines seem to be built like Sherman tanks and I know some items may wear out over time but people don’t get rid of a combo because it shimmies when go over 80 or it’s terrible on gas. I would think more along the lines of, didn’t work well as my one-man shop expanded or the market wasn’t there for my business, etc. but I’m open for discussion.

Lastly, what has been your experience of moving/shipping such a large item over a few hundred to possibly a few thousand miles? Would you make an extended road trip if the pricing was right and you had the time, say over a long weekend. Do you drive your own truck/trailer out to pick it up, fly out and rent a truck/trailer/van and just do the drive back? What about the shipping/freight options, has anyone used freight quote, forward air or similar? I’ve done some preliminary pricing and this figure can quickly add up to $1000-$1500 and then there is the crating/palletizing that’s required and most individuals just don’t want the hassle of this and the freight companies I’ve contacted don’t provide this service? What would you do?

Thx,

Stan…

[Steven Wilson]

These machines are large, heavy, and have somewhat fragile parts. Large enough that normal liftgates shouldn't be used to lift one in a truck (there are liftgates that will do this but you have to check it out first). One question in searching out a machine is the availability of a loading dock at the source. If the machine was in a building with a loading dock then it makes it very easy to place it in a rental truck. At your end you might consider the services of a rigger to get the machine out of the truck and into your shop (i.e. you'll have them bring and operate a fork lift). Another option is if you access to a flatbed trailer (dual axel) like a long car trailer then you have some options on how to get the machine on and off (fork lift, homemade ramps, etc). Many normal single axel trailers don't have enough capacity to carry these machines or their weight. When I had my CU350 (8.5' slider) I had the machine delivered to a rigger, I unpacked it there and then they loaded it onto an 18 wheeler along with a forklift onto a large tilting trailer. We looked over their forklifts to find one with the shortest vertical rails (so that it would fit through my garage door). The rigger charged me $65/hr and 2$/mile. Total cost was around $200 which wasn't too bad. Yes, you can spend $1K and up to package and ship these large machines but you need to look at that in the context of the total machine cost. I usually budget 10-15% of the cost of an item to ship it. So yes on a $15K machine you should budget $1500 for each move.

[Jeff Wright]

I own and love my MM 410 Elite (not the recent S model). If it's of any value, I created a photo-journal of my machine's delivery . . . a very detailed description of going to the local shipping terminal, fork-lifting onto an oversized rollback truck (it also included a MM20 bandsaw), and the 15 mile ride to my 2-car garage workshop and its unloading. E-mail me if you'd like a copy. It's kinda like a how-to manual. The machine weights 2100 pounds and is nearly 9 feet long, requiring it to be loaded lengthwise with a forklift equipped with longer forks onto the van. Due to its length it must be loaded lengthwise. Liftgates will not handle the 410 Elite.

Buying used certainly introduces added risk in the purchase. As in stocks, the higher the risks the higher should be the expectant returns. Small cap stocks should return more than large cap due to their higher volatility/risks. I would want a significant discount to accept those risks (no warranty, was the machine miss-used?, are all the accessory parts included?, all the documentation included?, rust issues?, etc.). It is comforting knowing MiniMax is there to handle any warranty issues or answer what can be an endless number of "how do I . . . " questions.

On the other hand, if you get a good price and the machine is in good condition, maybe an added bonus would be getting some additional tooling along with the machine. The cost of that stuff can sure add up fast!

[Jim Becker]

Yes, these high-end machines hold their value very well and also don't come on the market all that much. You may want to talk with MM directly about any show specials if the "savings" on the used machine isn't that substantial, especially after frieght charges. (Which may tend to be more than from the manufacturer) But as far as buying a used one? I think there is far less worry for a number of reasons. Most folks who sell them seem to do so relatively "soon" after buying, relatively speaking, rather than after many years. Many times, they are barely used at all for a variety of reasons. If you can deal with the logistics, it's a nice way to aquire a machine and give it the love it deserves!

[Todd Solomon]

Hi Stan,

A couple of things to consider. Mini Max has recently been upgrading their entire line, so you may want to find out if the used machine has all of the latest features, before buying. For example, some of the older machines don't have dado capability, and some newer models have beefier sliders. I don't know about the CU410 model specifically, but if you find out the age of a used machine, MM could tell you if anything's been improved recently. And even if you're okay with the older machine, you could use this to help negotiate a lower price.

A friend of mine bought a used Felder combo, and has had a lot of problems. At first glance, it didn't look like the machine had been used much. But once he got it home, he found the owner had messed up the jointer/planer (bent dust collection shroud and some other funky problem), and the height of the jointer tables was incorrect relative to the height of the saw/shaper top. He spent months trying to get it up to snuff. He said that he personally would not buy a used combo again.

Another friend of mine recently bought my old MM jointer/planer, which I had sold and shipped to someone else a few years ago. The new owner only stuck with woodworking for a couple of years, then he sold the machine to my friend (small world, eh?). My friend has had some problems with jointer table alignment and proper feeding. I did not have any problems when I owned it, it functioned perfectly. I guess all that shipping and such had thrown something out of whack.

I guess my feeling is that, unless I was able to spend hours going through the combo with a fine-tooth comb, and milling wood with every function, then was able to trailer it myself, I wouldn't buy a used one. They are complex enough that I wouldn't want to inherit someone else's machine with potential abuse or idiosyncracies. In the case of MM, warrantees are not transferable (unless they've changed their policy). I would want the protection of a warranty.

Todd

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Stan,

When I buy anything used I try to spend less than 60% or less than a comprable new machine. This has to include everything to get it to me and set up. If it is really far away you have to include the time and cost to go and look at it, the cost of shipping it back home and getting it set up.

The other thing you have to consider is the risk of something being wrong. Check out the cost of parts for these machines and how long it takes to get them. If it is older are the parts even available? Are you willing to look at an expensive boat anchor everytime you walk into the shop until the part arrives?

There have been a few threads about the frustrations of dealing with these companies even with a new machine now imagine their disinterest in helping you with their used macine.

It would have to be a really good deal from a reputable dealer or a long standing member of the creek or few other sites I visit for me to be comfortable buying used.

[Paul B. Cresti]

My opinion is not to buy a used machine of this nature. Yes they are built very well but they are not the simplest of machines either. When you spend the kind of money that you will be spending having the company behind you in helping you set it up (via phone if need be or other ways), FULL warranty, and knowing that it will work perfectly and if it does not the company will make it right....is a big plus for me. Sorry but in order for me to buy any used machine no matter what it is, it has to be a SUBSTANTIAL savings plus I need to see it in person and test it out. I would say for most hobbiests this type of investment will be a once in the lifetime buying experience....do yourself a favor buy it right the first time and you will never have regrets..

[lou sansone]

My opinion is not to buy a used machine of this nature. Yes they are built very well but they are not the simplest of machines either. When you spend the kind of money that you will be spending having the company behind you in helping you set it up (via phone if need be or other ways), FULL warranty, and knowing that it will work perfectly and if it does not the company will make it right....is a big plus for me. Sorry but in order for me to buy any used machine no matter what it is, it has to be a SUBSTANTIAL savings plus I need to see it in person and test it out. I would say for most hobbiests this type of investment will be a once in the lifetime buying experience....do yourself a favor buy it right the first time and you will never have regrets..

I second pauls comments. I buy lots of used machines, but sliders would not be one of them, unless I personally used it for a while to completely check it out.

Lou

[Jim Flynn]

Just remember to check it out well and to get a real sense of how the machine was used. I bought my CU300 Smart used when it was about 2 years old and couldn't be happier with it. At the time I paid about 65% of list for the new machine. It is missing one feature as an early 300 Smart in that it doesn't support dadoing but I tend to do that with a jig and freehand router or the router table.
In the case of my purchase I went to visit the machine at the sellers shop and went over it closely to assess it's condition. It was very clean and everything was flat/square/true to the best of my ability to measure. Test cuts of all functions but the shaper which he hadn't used at all and I was sold. I picked it up with a trailer I had brought along that was a tilt bed 2 axle dump trailer. Winched it onto the trailer, strapped it down tight, blocked it and secured all moving parts then drove it home.
With the mobility kit I tilted the trailer and wheeled it down the ramp with the only challenge being at the bottom when a Johnson bar helped get it down the last few inches. Unstrapped, ran it through the test cuts and it has been making sawdust successfully since with no problems.
The guys at MM were a great help once I got the machine home as I wanted an extra hold-down and opinions on Powerfeeders, mortising bits, etc. and you'd think I'd have been an original customer by how well they've treated me. I sincerely couldn't be happier with the product and the purchase. My only regreat is that the slider isn't the 8.5 foot model as I love ripping raw lumber on the slider and the 5.5 foot is a little short for many boards/sheet stock forcing me to rip using the rip fence and various contraptions to get a straight edge to joint on raw stock.
If the price is right and you can get your hands on the machine to check it out and test it yourself there can be substantial savings but as always you are taking somewhat of risk that there will be something you didn't catch requiring parts/help from the manufacturer. With MM my experience as I said above has been top notch. A pleasure to do business with them.
Good luck whatever you decide.

[John Lucas]

... If it's of any value, I created a photo-journal of my machine's delivery . . .

Is there a URL for this?

[Ted Miller]

If I was to spend that kind of money for a used machine you bet I would know everything about the owner and how it was used. First I would find out from the manu everything I could about the machine so when I went to look at the used item I would have enough knowledge to know if it is a good deal or not. I have purchased 80% of my shop tools used, and with fine tuning I have been not had many problems. I actualy own one machine I bought brand new and its nothing but a headache, luck of the draw...

[Jeff Wright]

Is there a URL for this?

I have the publication posted on the MiniMax Yahoo users' forum. If you are not a registered user there, email me and I will send it via e-mail. It is in .PDF format, something you should be able to easily open on your computer. It is 10 pages of many photos and captions.

[Steven Evans]

If you are going to buy a used one, make sure you save enought money to cover your headache. I had a used 410 and I swear I had to calbrate everything on it. It took days for me to get everything lined up. I wonder how anyone used it like that. Maybe that is why said person sold it. I now have a new Elite S version and love it. After fiddling with the used machine I was starting to wonder if I had bought a good machine. I could tell the used machine had seen many mile though. I would contact MM and see if they have a trade in. That way it will be crated good and there tech can go through it for you. It is all the goodies that take a beating, like the fences, etc.. Ask me how I know.

As for delivery, I rented an escalading trailer from my local equipment rental. I hear landscapers use them quite a bit. The whole bed of the trailer lowers to the ground. I was able to borrow two pallet jacks from work. At the freight dock I put on jack in the front and had them load it with a forklift. At home I put the second in from the back and rolled it off the trailer. It was harder to get it off the pallet for me.