blacksmith making chisels and request for ideas for tooling

[Clinton Findlay]

G'day,
I'm currently living in East Timor, doing a 12 month stint over here.
I had some chisels made at the local blacksmith's and here are a few pics.

I'd also like to ask the blacksmiths to have a think about what tooling these men should get access to. At the moment they only have hammers, anvils, files, a hot cut chisel, bellows, firepit and a few files and saws.
Additional tooling that they can make from scrap leaf spring or other scrap metals would be appreciated. Average wages are US$50 - 80 per month, and I don't think these men are even on that sort of money, therefor additional tooling has to be 'free' and able to contribute to earning money immediately.
Thanks.

Pic 1 - the bellows and charcoal firepit

Pic 2 - The end of an auto leaf spring being flattened.

Pic3 - Cutting the leaf to size

Pic 4 - Forming the shoulders of the chisel, where blade meets tang.

Pic 5 - shoulder forming continued

[Clinton Findlay]

Pic 6 - raising shoulders

Pic 7 - raising shoulders continued

Pic 8 - making the handle
The ferrules are made from water pipe. The handle was knocked up to shape, very quickly, with a machete only. After the handle was fitted with ferrules, a hand drill was used to drive the hole for the tang, and the handle was knocked down. As the handle was being made the chisel was hand finished with a file.

Pic 9 - Handle fitted and chisel being brought to final hardening temp

Pic 10 - finished chisels

They hadn't made a chisel before, they mostly make farming hand tools. So, not bad for a first crack at a bevel edge and a pigsticker mortice chisel.

A few people suggested showing them a japanese 'sen' and someone else gave me a pic of a 'spring fuller'. Anyone else know of some appropriate tools?

Hope you enjoyed the pics

[Dave Jeske]

Thanks for sharing. I guess they don't have OSHA over there! I'm not much of a blacksmith but Todd Hughes is. I'm not sure if he hangs out here at all or not but you could search for him at WoodCentral.com on the hand tools forum. He may have some good suggestions. How did they heat treat and temper the spring steel. My guess that it is since it is a high carbon steel they could quench in oil and then carefully temper it to an appropriate hardness.
Dave

[Mike Henderson]

Perhaps what they need more than tools is marketing help. They could position themselves as a "green" hand-made alternative to Lie-Nielsen and sell through some of the environmental organizations. Woodworkers could compete to have the most green shop.

This is only half in jest.:) Japan sells us tools made using primitive techniques at very high prices - it's all in convincing buyers that there's something special about "hand-made" using primitive methods.

Mike

[harry strasil]

As a blacksmith, I wonder if they would know how to use some of the more advanced tooling. Seems to me they know what they are doing and are competant at it. You don't need a whole bunch of toys to do good work, after all its the Blacksmith that makes the Tools, Not the Tools that make the Blacksmith. Just like our own Woodworking past, the product was made by their skill and aptitude with what tools were available.
.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Japan sells us tools made using primitive techniques at very high prices - it's all in convincing buyers that there's something special about "hand-made" using primitive methods.

I suppose I could go through a lot of mumbo jumbo about why I now perceive quality, expensive or not, Japanese tools to be bargains; but I'm not going to right now. I'll just say this seems like a critical condescending comment that is unjustified. If not, please correct me and I'll take this back.

Pam

[Mike Henderson]

I'm sorry if my comments offended you, Pam. I did not in any way intend to offer offense.

However, the statement is accurate and in the context of the thread, I feel appropriate.

If you wish to address this further, let me suggest that you send me a PM so that we do not involve the rest of the Creek in this discussion.

Mike

[Added note] The comments I made were about the process of making tools and not about the tools themselves. I would not say anything about quality because the judgment of quality is a subjective judgment - there are no objective measurements of quality (you can't get a pound of quality). Blacksmithing, by definition, goes back to the beginning of the Iron Age (about 1500 BC). In reality, smithing was required in the Bronze Age (about 3500BC) so the techniques are even older than the Iron Age. Perhaps I should have called the techniques "prehistoric" rather than primitive.

[Dean Lapinel]

Not the same expensive but high quality 400 plus layered product shown in the image. Not even close to the level of craftmanship that I have seen worked.

[James Mittlefehldt]

That is really interesting, I love stuff like this. What I don't know about blacksmithing and metalworking is a lot. However I agree with Harry in that they seem to be highly competant craftsman, and he does know, they are doing well with what they have. That bellows is ingenious I have never seen anything like that.

What has been pointed out by many is that it is always amazing to our western and modern eyes how much can be done with little. I am always amazed at the level of work done in the Hay shop in Williamsburg and the number of tools they do, it with, or the Dominys shop.

It looked like the saw that one fellow was using had a fairly agressive set was the wood particularily hard. Also are there any woodworkers where you are Clinton and how do the chisels work?

[Michael Hammers]

Clinton,
If you can look up Don Weber. He is a smithy and a bodger and is one hell of a nice chap. Last time I was at his shop he was telling me about his going overseas and helping under develpoed villages. Makes a good homeade bread also (thanks Don:D ) He is a busy guy but also very knowlegable.
Cheers, Michael


http://www.handcraftwoodworks.com/greenwood.html

[Clinton Findlay]

Harry,
These guys have asked for assistance in getting more (suitable) tooling and learning new techniques.
There has been a huge loss of knowledge due to massive deaths (as a % of population) incurred during WWII and during the Indonesian occupation. A lot of the deaths were in the male population as well as the very young and elderly, and the surviving members often had to focus on food production.... leading to other skills not being used and more knowledge loss.
So, I'm asking for pointers on their behalf, and any pointers would be gratefully received, I'm sure.... and extensively worked at till they felt confident in trying to make a $ out of the new knowledge.
There guys are not practicing a culmination of centuries of carefully and painstakingly aquired knowledge..... they are trying to aquire knowledge as a lot of it has been lost. :( Forge welding being an example.

Agressive set on the hand saw:
No, the wood for the handle is actually 'too soft'. Its just the only saw they have, and they don't know about saw sharpening or re-jointing.
To put it in perspective, a triangular file would cost $5 of a $80 monthly wage, and the nearest library (and internet cafe) is a 4 hour, $3 bus trip away. Pretty hard to pick up knowledge, and the library is mostly history and novels written about the independance struggle. I'll certainly pass what I know on, part of the reason I'm over here.

Michael - thanks for the nudge towards Don Weber. Skills development is what these guys are after, not a hand-out but a hand-up. I wish I could transplant one of Australia's trade and agricultural colleges over here....

Tempering - tempering is done in water, as there is no such thing as waste oil over here.... oil is expensive and so you just add it as the oil level on the dipstick goes down. I tried to get waste engine oil for another project.... but its near on impossible.

OSHA - just common sense. I noticed that they shared the only pair of socks, 1 per man, on the foot most often nearest the heat.

Mike - I'm thinking along the same lines, re selling in another country although I'll have to send them to my country (Australia) without handles due to quarrantine restrictions and treatment costs.

The chisels work reasonably well, better than some cheap and nasty boxed sets I've had.
The pig sticker has held up well to some agressive work.

The local cabinetmaker/carpenter makes his own planes, and would give some 'high end' western-country planemakers a good run on useability and presentation. Pics and a thread when I get time to get one made for myself. Again, an issue of market access and lack of marketing.

The cabinetmaker/carpenter has to buy blades that are made out of the country as the local blacksmiths can't make their blades flat, but we'll see what happens when they have access to some diamond stones. We considered using scary sharp, but a flat surface is hard to come by and sandpaper is comparatively expensive.

Thanks for your interest.

[Wilbur Pan]

Perhaps what they need more than tools is marketing help. They could position themselves as a "green" hand-made alternative to Lie-Nielsen and sell through some of the environmental organizations. Woodworkers could compete to have the most green shop.

This is only half in jest.:) Japan sells us tools made using primitive techniques at very high prices - it's all in convincing buyers that there's something special about "hand-made" using primitive methods....

However, the statement is accurate and in the context of the thread, I feel appropriate.
Mike,

Japan is not the one engaging in this marketing campaign. Out of the four major sources for Japanese tools in the U.S., one is run by Harrelson Stanley, and another is run by are run by Fred Damsen, neither of whom is Japanese, last time I checked. (I'm not sure who is the head of Hida Tool, and certainly Kayoko Kuroiwa from Misugi Designs is of Japanese descent.) Garrett Wade and Tools For Working Wood (Joel Moskowitz) are two other American sellers that also are bringing Japanese tools to the market, and the hand-made nature of these tools is used as a selling point by these two comapnies. Even the Grizzly catalog, purveyor of all things power tool, makes it a point to state in their catalog that their Japanese chisels and gouges are "hand finished". Many other U.S. companies (not just tool companies) also extoll the benefits of their products being "hand-made", using techniques that are also "primitive", by your definition.

Issues of primitive techniques and quality aside, you should rephrase or retract your statement. To suggest that the entire country of Japan is somehow engaged in a marketing scheme is definitely inaccurate, condescending at best, and xenophobic at worst.

[harry strasil]

When you put it that way Clinton, below are drawings of 4 basic tools that simplify and speed up work when a striker is available.

1. A Side Set - makes short work of starting a shoulder with a square side and a tapered side to make drawing out easier. Generally a square head with on side tapered as shown and with a small radius on the working end.

2. A Fuller - to speed up drawing out or used the other way to speed up spreading. Generally a square head with the sides tapered on the working end and with anywhere from a 1/8 to 3/4 radius to the working end, makes the metal move mostly in one direction to the sides as shown.

3. A Set Hammer - Generally a square head with the bottom working surface dead flat and square with the sides, used to define a shoulder and to flatten small areas.

4. A Flatter - A square head with the working surface flared, used to flatten large areas, the flare is usually 2.5 to 3 inches square.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/smithing/BMtoolsbasics.jpg

5. Top Tools, those tools held on top and struck by a Striker, do not need to have an eye punched and a handle put in, but can be Rodded as shown below, its just a small steel rod wrapped twice around the head and twisted then a handle is formed to make positioning it easier. A couple of dimples are put in the head to make sure the rod stays in one place, and its much easier than punching a handle eye, and lessenes the shock to the hand versus a solid steel or pipe handle welded to the tool.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/smithing/mnkytl03.jpg

The anvil looks in pretty good shape, but to avoid damaging the surface, they should use a cutting plate between the anvil face and the piece they are hot cutting to avoid accidental damage to the face.

I have seen smiths in Southeast Asia using feather bellows like they are using and also many just have a round shaft set in the ground as is shown in one of the pictures.

Hope this helps.

Jr.

[Andrew Homan]

Japan sells us tools made using primitive techniques at very high prices - it's all in convincing buyers that there's something special about "hand-made" using primitive methods.


I don't take issue with the "primitive" term so much as with the "it's all in convincing [...]" bit -- is it really "ALL" in "convincing"???? So it's just some kind of shell game??? The statement actually implies that there really is nothing special about it, but that these things are sold because the sellers manage to "convince" the buyers that there is.

Even if they point out the laborous processes required by individuals to make these tools, it does not "all" revolve around this, any more than artists bios, explanations, etc. in galleries. And last I checked, people use these tools care about the way they handle.

I agree with others that the statement should be retracted. I understand that no offense was intended, but it reminds me of the way I've heard some people say things that are racist or sexist without realizing they are doing so. Certainly the point of view could be expressed in another way -- at least with a bit more humility -- or not posted at all. :(
-Andy

[Clinton Findlay]

Thanks Harry.... I'll print your last post out and take it down to them.
I'm sure that they will be very appreciative.

At the moment they are making a spring fuller from a coil spring I got them, and my language skills got a work out trying to explain a spring fuller. Eventually got there with the help of a model made in wire and a few diagrams.
Toward the end I managed to convey enough info that one of the men pointed to the hairpin bend of the sprng fuller and remarked that the clamping effect this gives the tool is the same as having another pair of hands to hold the bars in place. :D
They intend to experiment and if they don't like it, will turn the coil spring into something to sell.
As an example of their "can do" attitude, at the moment they are using an old truck motor head as their swage block... using the holes for the mounting blocks for upsetting and heading.

They asked me if I could take a large leaf spring down to the capital city and get it drilled with a range of holes... small to large... I assume that it is to use as a type of swage block.

Would it be beneficial to get another piece done with the holes chamfered out as well?
So that they can use it to upset a head with a chamfer under the head?

Fortunately, through contacts, I can get hold of a set of leaf springs, to cannibalise, for this (so that it isn't from their stock).
Is this something (leaf with holes drilled and chamfered) that you think is useful?

[Clinton Findlay]

I agree with others that the statement should be retracted.
I don't agree that it should be retracted.

I would much rather the issue of Mikes post and word usage be laid to rest, or continued elsewhere.

I'll be happy to give the issue of Mike's word choice the attention it deserves in another thread.

[Andrew Homan]

I don't agree that it should be retracted.


Sure, I changed my mind, too, let it stand as a testiment to what it is.
-Andy

[harry strasil]

a piece with holes is either used as a header or as a bolster, A swage block has depressions around the outside normally half a hole usually round and on one side square. Old style swage blocks had round, square and rectangular holes clear thru the center, modern swage blocks usually have various depressions on both sides of the middle for dishing spoons, shovels and ladles etc.

If any chamfering is done it should be just enough to break the sharp edge.

[Mike Henderson]

Wilbur Pan and I have been having a discussion via PM - a very polite and reasonable discussion. If I'm choosing the right words, Wilbur's position is that I was making an accusation against the whole country of Japan and its people. He suggested that I change my statement and provided a correction that he felt was better. Althought I certainly did not mean to imply anything against the country of Japan, I'm more than willing to change my statement to more accurately reflect what I was trying to say.

The statement that Wilbur would prefer, and which I agree to is:

"Japanese tools are made using primitive techniques and sold at very high prices - it's all in convincing buyers that there's something special about "hand-made" using primitive methods"

I also offer my sincere apology to Wilbur and to anyone else who was offended by my slight to the country of Japan and its people. Absolutely none was intended.

Mike

[harry strasil]

High prices, because the making of tools in Japan is steeped in traditional ways of doing things, thus it takes more time to make a tool.

Damascus or patten welded does not necessarily make a better tool, just make is look different, I prefer the older chisels made by the old timers in this country, with the hard blister steel forge welded to the soft wrought iron body. they seem to stay sharper longer. also the old tapered plane blades made the same way.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Japanese tools are made using primitive techniques and sold at very high prices - it's all in convincing buyers that there's something special about "hand-made" using primitive methods"

I also offer my sincere apology to Wilbur and to anyone else who was offended by my slight to the country of Japan and its people. Absolutely none was intended.

Thanks, Mike, I was hoping this was what you meant.

Pam

[Dave Burnard]

"Modern tools are made with labor and time saving mass production techniques and "space age" materials and can be sold at very low prices - it's all in convincing buyers that nothing significant was lost in the transition to modern techniques and materials"

;)

Hooray for those smiths Clinton is trying to help out - wish I had something useful to contribute. Harry's assortment of sets and your spring fullers should go a long way.

Leaf spring steel wouldn't benefit much from lamination, but they could consider it - if the steel is in very short supply compared with iron there. Obtaining flux could be a problem, but they may already be doing fluxed forge welding in their regular work with an improvised version from local materials. Cross that bridge when they get a feel for whether edge tool making will be practical for them.

I would guess chisels, small knives, and carving tools would be useful locally - but that all depends on what is available from elsewhere and what is in short supply locally.

Very interesting - please keep us posted on their progress...

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Clinton,

Ask what they want to use the bar with the holes for. They may want touse them to make various sized dowels. Spring steel will have to be softened before it is drilled. There are several blacksmithing site that could be of use to you. I can provide you a list if you would like.

[Clinton Findlay]

Charles,
I will ask tomorrow when I go to see them.... I think it is for making dowels and also heading/upsetting, but I'm only assuming.
I'd like the list of blacksmithing resources, so if you could pm them to me I'd greatly appreciated it.


Tomorrow we'll be making the spring fuller and sen.
If we get the time we will make a few sets of Oval Bolstered Mortice chisels, "pigstickers", ... I've got a few orders for them, amongst other chisel sets.
Drawknives are next of the list.
Its all good!

Thanks,
Clinton

[Dave Burnard]

Shoot! I entered a long post about sen making and usage hoping to catch Clinton before he left - somehow it was lost in the ether (possibly in the ether between my ears).

I can reconstruct the post, but maybe I'll wait and adjust it depending on how the sen-making project went.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I'd love to hear about sen making and using, Dave, but no hurry.

Pam

[gene wiedenroth]

I have worked metals a large part of my life perhaps i can give a few pointers. high carbon steels may be annealed by heating to none magnetic or slightly higher then burying in ashes, dry sand ,or dry clay if a small piece ,bury w/ a large, also hot piece of metal to slow the cooling.annealed high carbon may be made into files&rasps of all shapes & sizes by cutting the teethw/ a chisel then heating to none magnetic & quenching. drill bits may be made by making a spade bit or a ''D'' bit as viewed from the end of the tool even a tap or reamer may be made this way vegtable oils also work for quenching also oil on water will slow the quench

[Clinton Findlay]

I've been rather busy with a few things over here, so apologies for 'being away' for so long.

Here's a pic of the Pig sticker style chisel all polished up via an oilstoine and to 500 grit Wet and Dry sandpaper.

I'm getting there with presentation... currently have orders for 5 sets and a few other items, so its all good.