Request advice on workbench design details

[Eric Sink]

Greetings all,

It is time for me to build myself a proper bench. I am at the design stage. I am also not an expert on workbenches and would like to request some input from folks with more experience.

I do have the books by Landis and Schleining, as well as one by Sam Allen. They've been very helpful. Apologies in advance if I'm asking something that is covered in these books. I've read them, but I find that these books don't really work so well as a reference. They're great books when you just sit down and read them, but if I'm looking for some arcane detail, it's hard to find.

Here's an overall picture of what I have in mind:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench_01_mainview.png


It's a "tray in the middle" design. Of the many outstanding benches I have seen here on the Creek, I suppose my design is most similar to Chris Del's.

I'm right handed, so I've got the front vise on the left and a tail vise on the right end. For now I plan to simply build a shelf down below, not a cabinet.

The tool tray in the middle is a removable piece of 3/4 inch plywood.

The top slabs are 4 inches thick. I want this bench to be really heavy. Estimated weight right now for the whole bench is about 412 pounds.

The slabs are 14 inches wide, so I can run them through my 15 inch planer, and because I don't think they need to be any wider than that anyway. I plan to build the top slabs myself, laminating from pieces of 8/4 or 12/4 oak turned on their side.

The top slabs are 80 inches long. I'm not completely settled on this yet. I might go down to 72, just because I'm not sure I need lots of length and I AM sure that I hate working with long heavy boards.

Total height of the bench is 36 inches. I might change this to 35 inches.

The tray is 8 inches wide, so the total width of the bench is 36 inches. I'm aware that this is wider than average, but I'm okay with that. This bench will sit in the middle of my shop, not up against the wall, so I'll have access to all sides.

In my day job I am a computer programmer. The software I used to draw these pictures is a hobby project of mine. The light colored wood for the top is maple. I plan to build the supporting structure (the brown wood) from red oak, since I've got quite a bit of it sitting around wanting to be used. The software draws endgrain in yellow.

The software can't draw a vise, but I've included the jaws. So you can see the front vise on the left side of the bench and the tail vise on the right end. The tail vise is going to be a Veritas twin screw. I'm not yet sure what the front vise will be.

I've got 4 rows of dog holes, which will be round. They're spaced 6 inches apart.

The right end cap (also the rear jaw of the vise) is attached to the top slabs by cutting a tenon in the slabs and a dado in the endcap. I won't glue the whole length, so the top will have room to move.

The vise jaws are 8 1/4 inches, based simply on the thickness of the top and recommendations from the instruction manual for the Veritas twin screw vise.

Here's a picture from underneath:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench_02_underneath.png


The trestle has feet and bearers with two sets of long stretchers and one set of short stretchers.

I've got about 16 inches of overhang on the right side to give room for the vise hardware underneath.

Question 1: Is this too much? Is it a bad idea to cantilever that far?

Question 2: Are dog holes supposed to be drilled all the way through like this? I think so, but the books don't usually show pictures of the underside of a bench.

Question 3: What about the dog holes in the vise jaws? Should they be drilled all the way through as well?

Here's a picture of the left end:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench_03_leftend.png


(My software draws plywood edges in red.)

The tool tray is supported by dadoes cut in the side of the top slabs. The dado is an inch deep, cut one half inch up from the bottom of the slab.

Question 4: Is this is a good idea, or should I be supporting the tool tray in some other way? I've seen plenty of other benches with a center tool tray, but it's not always clear what the tray is resting on. I don't like the idea of just supporting it on the trestle bearers, since then it would be cantilevered at the ends.

Here's a picture looking from the front at the lower part of the bench:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench_04_front.png


I've got a set of long stretchers down low with a plywood shelf between them. The shelf is supported by another board glued onto the inside of the stretchers. The shelf will be two pieces of 3/4 inch plywood glued together, for a total thickness of 1.5 inches.

Above that, I've got another set of long stretchers. I got this idea from Schleining's book IIRC.

I decided not to put an apron all the way around the bench. If the apron is taller than the thickness of the top, I'm worried it will interfere with clamping stuff to the top.

Question 5: Is this wise? I've seen other benches here without an apron in front, so I'm guessing that I won't get myself into TOO much trouble with this choice. Still, I'm not sure I fully understand the tradeoffs of this particular design issue. I've seen benches with a row of what appear to be dogholes in the front apron. Is this the feature I'll be missing out on?

Here's another shot from below:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench_05_dogholesfrombelow.png


This picture shows that the dog holes miss the bearer on the right side but I still need to tweak something on the left side, since the dog holes are hitting the left bearer.

Here's a picture of part of the trestle in progress:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench_06_leg.png


All the joinery in the trestle is done with mortises. The stretchers will simply be inserted into the mortises shown in the picture above. The legs, feet and bearers are 4 inches by 4 inches.

Question 6: Is this a bad idea? Is there any reason I need to actually cut tenons in the stretcher, rather than just inserting the end of the stretcher into a mortise?

I don't plan to actually cut these mortises. Rather, I plan to laminate the legs and build the mortises by simply leaving out wood when I laminate.

The following picture is a shot of the foot with mortises for the leg tenons. Unlike the stretchers, the legs will actually have tenons (built from laminating them).

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench_07_foot.png

Here's a shot of the completed trestle before the top goes on:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench_08_trestle.png

One thing I haven't figured out yet is how to attach the top slabs to the trestle bearers. I know I need to be careful about expansion of the top, I just haven't figured out exactly how I want to do this.

Question 7: Are the short stretchers overkill? I want this to be really sturdy, no racking at all, but if I'm overbuilding this to the point of absurdity, I don't mind hearing somebody say so. :)

Question 8: I'm planning to glue the whole trestle together. Should I not? Should I be using bolts through the mortises and stuff like that?

The final picture is a shot of the top before the endcap goes on. The tenons for the end cap are cut in the slabs, and you can see the dadoes in the inside sides of the slabs for the tray.

Question 9: Is there some better way to attach the end cap? I know I can't glue it all the across because of the cross-grain joint, but I'm open to other suggestions.

Question 10: Any other advice?

Thanks in advance!

[Roy McQuay]

Nice effort, I wish I could learn to use my design software like that. Anyway, I just wanted to suggest that when you attach the top to the base, you can use metal clips that are made for tabletops. There are different types, but all will allow for wood movement. Something of this size will definitely be moving. You can also use slotted holes and screws with washers. Depends on how you decide to attach. Wood movement is across the grain, insignificant with the grain. Good luck. Also, my opinion of dog holes is that they will be much easier to keep clear if they go all the way through. It wouldn't take very long to fill them with wood chips and sawdust.

[Dan Forman]

The only thing I feel qualified to suggest is to have your dog holes go all the way through the top so that you can use a hold fast. The dog holes in the vise don't need to go all the way through, I just use a section of dowel for the vise dog, and remove it when not needed.

I think the idea of cutting tenons into the stretchers is that the shoulder of the tenon adds strength to prevent racking.

Dan

[Mark Stutz]

Eric,
Just a couple of thoughts after my first read thru. I agree, the dog holes will fill up with chips and will be a pain to clean out...so all the way thru. I would also consider making the bottom of the too tray removable, and in several pieces. This will allow you to clamp to the bench in the middle of the bench. Put the end sections in the dadoes, but rest 2 or 3 middle sections on cleats for quick easy removal. As far as attaching the top...gravity will work just fine. Mine simply has a dowel in each trestle that fits into the mating hole in the underside of the top, to prevent it sliding off. If you ever contemplate moving...either you or the moving company will appreciate a trestle base that comes apart.
However you decide to go, good luck with the project.

Mark

[Andy Howard]

Eric,

I will try to answer your questions and give you feedback on your bench based on the fact that I built one very similar to this about 9 months ago.

1. With a 4" thick top a 16" overhang will not be a problem. I did an equal overhang on each side of my bench, but just because That Is what I wanted.

2. I drilled my dog holes all the way thru. This gives 2 advantages as I see it. Stuff will fall thru and not accumulate, and you have the option to use a holdfast. I got a pair of Gramercy holdfasts and they are wonderfull. I went with 3/4" holes, and have not regreted the decision. a 3/4' dowel and some wood scraps will make you all sorts of stops and dogs plus the veritas brass dogs and wonder dogs are 3/4" and you can get some holdfasts.

3. The holes in the vise jaws do not need to be thru holes. Drill them as deep as you like, but make sure not to hit any of your vise hardware! You wont be using holdfasts on the vise jaws, and you can clean out the few holes in the vises if needed.

4. I used the dado method to hold my tool tray, and it works great. I think 3/4" plywood is way overkill for the 8" span your tool tray will have. I have about a 5 1/2" span, and I used 1/4" plywood. The main reason I had for using thinner plywood was to preserve the depth of the tool tray. If you use a 3/4" tray bottom vs a 1/4" you loose a 1/2" of depth in the tray. I wanted to make sure some items would fit in my tray and be below the surface of the bench. Lay out some items you think you will hold in the tray and measure how high they sit, the 1/2" may matter to you, and it may not. Just something to think about.
Also, I have 2 pieces for my bottom. Makes it easier to slide out and clean when you need to.

5. I have no apron. The apron is to make up for a lack of benchtop thickness, which you will not have with a 4" top. Most benches with an apron have much thinner tops. I really like not having an apron, as it give you much more clamping flexibility.

6. I would use a tenon on the end of your stretchers.

7. In your current design I think your short stretchers are not needed. I personally think you are making the base of the bench more complicated than it needs to be, but that is just my opinion. I chose to get my legs as close to the corners as I could to help with stability, and my base has been great so far. I can barely get the thing to slide when I want to!

8. I personally glued and drawbored all my joints for the entire base on my bench. Also, my top has mortises on the bottom of it and the tops of the legs were tennoned, so those joints are also glued and drawbored. My bench is mobile, but not as seperate pieces.

9. I have a twin screw, and while you could do as you have planned, it is not necessary. The end cap with the twin screw is held on with 4 bolts and barrel nuts. I think trying to do the endcap like you have it would just lead to more difficulties.

10. Ask lots of questions, and if you have anyone around with a bench ask if you can try theirs first. I really like mine so far, and it is getting a lot of use. I think yours may be a bit high, but this is very personal. Remember, you could always make a little riser for under the legs, but it is very hard to cut all the legs once it is assembled!

And, since you asked, I will offer this last suggestion.
On my bench, I made sure to have the long stretcher relatively close to the ground. This does one major thing for me......it provides for my mobility option. If and when I want to move my bench I just lift one side up a bit and kick a furniture dolly under the middle. This gets all four legs off the ground and allows me to move it very easily. $20 to $30 will buy a nice heavy duty furniture dolly.

Here is a picture of what I made. I wasnt quite thru yet, but I do have four rows of holes on my benchtop now.



Andy

[Alan Turner]

Eric,
Andy's comments are right on target. I have two suggestions. First, consider a very short tenon on the lower stretchers, and use a through bolt and captured nut. In this way you have a bench that can be disassembled for moving, and you can tighten them if need be based upon the change in seasons, or drying of wood. I use 1/2" by 6", grade two with square nut.

Second, use a top cross stretcher attached to the leg tops with a recessed bridle joint. This is easy to cut on a table saw, is quite strong, and will let you use one lag screw on each side of the top. Easily removable. No wood movement issues.

I am not a fan of the twin screw, and prefer a traditional tail vise, but this is a matter of taste, of course.

[Jeff Johnson]

Do you want to consider capping the open end of the tool tray? It might give additional structural stiffness to the two pieces of top.

'Course - that makes it harder to clean the tool tray, but you could consider ramps in the tray to ease clean-out and avoid having to dig into the corners for small bits dropped in there.

Are the upper stretchers and the short cross-pieces structurally necessary?

[Robert Trotter]

Andy,

Looking at your bench picture am I right in that you have no top stretchers in either direction. Just four legs with botom stretchers and the legs morticed into the top? So the stability is from the mortice into the top?

It's a bit hard to see clearly but am I right in that your legs and the front of your bench are in line?

If so, how do you find this?

And... is your bench made from pine? Has it got enough weight for hand planing?

I am in the process of thinking about my bench design and construction also. I am wondering if I need the top stretchers with a thick top. If there are no stretcher at the top will the table be stable against racking?

Eric, I am thinking about the twin screw vices for my bench, too. One on the end and one as a face vice. The regular size on the end and the larger size for the front vice. I was thinking this for the front vice as I thought with the 24" centre to centre spaceing between screws it would allow me to support drawers and the like like a scandanavian shoulder vice would. Anyone's thoughts on this would be very helpful for me and maybe Eric too as he ssaid he hasn't decided on his front vice yet.

On the front vice, looking at your drawing Erice, I would suggest that you put the rear jaw of what ever vice you choose in-line with the bench. So set it back into the bench. And if you were laminating your top yourself and using the twin screw then decide and and then laminate the rear jaw into the bench or just leave a section out there so you could use the bolt system to atttach it and then you could remove it easily for maintenance or replacement.

I'll be watching others' advice since I am interested as well.

Robert

[Eric Sink]

Thanks for all the responses. I'll be making a few changes based on the feedback I have received here.

I'm looking forward to the day I can post actual photographs of the finished bench. :)

[Eric Sink]

Do you want to consider capping the open end of the tool tray? It might give additional structural stiffness to the two pieces of top.

I'd like to cap it, both for strength and to hide the plywood edge. But I really want the tray to be removable.

[Luke McFadden]

Thanks for all the responses. I'll be making a few changes based on the feedback I have received here.

I'm looking forward to the day I can post actual photographs of the finished bench. :)

I'm really interested in the changes that you make to the table via your program. So, maybe when you get to a final design, if you could post some more pictures like in your first post, that would be great!

L

[Ron Brese]

Eric I like your design. I don't think you need an apron with a 4" thick top, in fact I think you wouldn't need one with a 3" thick top. The only other thing that you may want to consider is to enclose the open area under the bench. It will afford a lot more storage and a good 3/4" back panel will make this bench like a rock. My bench is not built on a stretcher base but is based on a very strong 3/4" plywood cabinet and it is heavy and stiff. If you opt for the enclosed storage and are going to incorporate vertical support for workpieces, make sure you put this feature on the side without the doors and drawers. If you do everytime you clamp something to the side you will block your access to the tools in the storage cabinet. I know I made this mistake.

Ron

[Eric Sink]

9. I have a twin screw, and while you could do as you have planned, it is not necessary. The end cap with the twin screw is held on with 4 bolts and barrel nuts. I think trying to do the endcap like you have it would just lead to more difficulties.

Hmmm. Let's make sure I understand what you're saying:

"Don't bother with the tenon/groove joint on the endcap. Just attach the
endcap with the bolts and barrel nuts as explained in the vise instructions."

Is that right? Will that approach be safe in terms of expansion/contraction of the top?

[Eric Sink]

So, maybe when you get to a final design, if you could post some more pictures like in your first post, that would be great!

Will do. I'm making modifications to the plan now. I'll post the result when I get all the tweaks completed.

[Ruston Hughes]

First of all, very nice design. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. Buy your vises before finalizing the overhand you'll use on each end. Knowing exactly what the clearance requirements are can save a few headaches.

2. As others have suggested, use a drawbore on your M&T joints. I'm sure a well executed M&T may not need the reinforcement, but I don't have enough confidence in my abilitity to execute so it seemed like easy insurance to pin the joints.

3. For the dog holes in the vise jaw, I drilled mine about 3 inches deep and then drilled a 1/2" hole through the ouside face of the jaw to the bottom of the dog hole. This allows chips and debris to be cleared easily.

Most of all, have fun building it!!

[James Tattersall]

Greetings all,

It is time for me to build myself a proper bench...a "tray in the middle" design. ...tool tray in the middle is a removable piece of 3/4 inch plywood.

Thanks in advance!

Instead of a tool tray, consider building a separate tool bin/caddy on locking casters, sized to roll under some other table surface when not in use. That way, the tools you are using are at your side within reach when working; and you can later roll the bin/caddy back to your tool cabinet when you want to put the tools away. That simplifies the construction of the bench and provides one continuous flat bench surface if needed when assembling something.

[Andy Howard]

Andy,

Looking at your bench picture am I right in that you have no top stretchers in either direction. Just four legs with botom stretchers and the legs morticed into the top? So the stability is from the mortice into the top?

It's a bit hard to see clearly but am I right in that your legs and the front of your bench are in line?

If so, how do you find this?

And... is your bench made from pine? Has it got enough weight for hand planing?

I am in the process of thinking about my bench design and construction also. I am wondering if I need the top stretchers with a thick top. If there are no stretcher at the top will the table be stable against racking?


Robert

Robert,
I do have stretchers across the top. This was mainly done since I built my top as 2 large slabs plus 2 "ramps", and then assembled it all in to one main piece. If my top was all one slab before mounting it on the legs the top stretchers would probably be useless.

The front legs are flush with the front edge of the bench. I like this. It allows the use of the legs and bottom stretcher for clamping if the need ever arises. Also, the deadman is in the same plane, so it can also be used for clamping, supporting, etc.

And yes, my bench is made from almost 100% southern yellow pine. I did this for a few reasons. 1. Cheap. I think all the wood in my bench ran me about $120 from lowes. Now, I didnt waste much at all, and I had all my parts and cut list laid out for maximum utilization.
2. Easy to find. - Go to nearest Lowes, Home Depot, etc. I do live in the south east, and I understand this is harder to find up north?
3. I dont feel bad using the bench for what it was made for.....work! If i nick or accidentaly cut in to my benchtop its not a big deal. Now, I dont do this on purpose, but its for working and not admiring. I didnt spend a lot of time getting the top super smoth, or making it look really nice. If that is what you want then go for it, but it wasnt important to me.

As for the weight of the bench. It became very apparent that it was going to be heavy early on in the construction. One day I took my bathroom scale out and measured the components (stretchers, legs, top slabs, etc) right before I started glue up. The 4 legs, 2 long stretchers, and 4 short stretchers weighed in at 140lbs. The two top slabs weighed in at 80lbs each. That is 300 lbs before adding the two ramps, both vises, vise jaws, and deadman. I know the anant alone is 38 lbs.
I figure I am being very conservative when I say that bench weighs in at 350 lbs. That combined with the very stable base and it isnt going anywhere unless its on wheels.

Here are some finished dimensions if you care.
The legs are 5" square.
The stretchers are 4.25" square.
Top is 3.25" thick and 86.25" long. There are two main slabs that are each 10.75" wide. There are two filler blocks that fill about 20" in from each end, but they are only 2.5" thick. The tool tray is 5" wide, and 46" long.
Bench top is 34.25" high.
Tool tray is removeable by sliding the plywood out the left end of the bench. The end of the plywood is not seen, as it goes about 12" under the bench due to the 20" long filler block above it.

I have attached 2 pics that hopefully shed some light on how the stretchers are.

Hope this helps someone out....took a long time to type and compose. Let me know if I can be of more help. If anyone ever passes thru you are welcome to look at it.

Andy

[Andy Howard]

Hmmm. Let's make sure I understand what you're saying:

"Don't bother with the tenon/groove joint on the endcap. Just attach the
endcap with the bolts and barrel nuts as explained in the vise instructions."

Is that right? Will that approach be safe in terms of expansion/contraction of the top?

Exactly. The Veritas instructions have some details on how the end of your bench should be so seasonal movement does not change the allignment of your vise jaws. The main point they make is that the sides of the rear jaw can not be covered with any aprons. Your twin screw drawing looks correct in this regard.

Also, as Robert suggested make the front edge of the bench the rear jaw. It is easy to do, and gives much more utility in my opinion. If you have a long board or a wide panel you can clamp one end in the vise, and use a clamp on the other end to hold it firm againt your bench. I dont see much of a reason for the rear jaw that protrudes from the front of the bench on a front vise. If you need a pic of this let me know.

Andy

[Luke McFadden]

If you need a pic of this let me know.

I'd like one!

L

[Andy Howard]

I'd like one!

L

Ok, but just remember you asked for it. :)

You can see in the first picture I am using the front edge of the bench for the rear jaw of the vise. I did have to build up some thickness underneath the bench in this area to get the needed depth for mounting this particular vise. I also just recently routed a rabbet in the top edge and glued in a piece of cherry. The pine was getting a bit compressed and I chipped out a piece on accident while doing something in the vise. (cant remember what it was :mad: )

The other pictures show how a clamp can be used at the other end to really secure a board, panel, etc that you are working on. It really is amazing how much of a difference it makes vs. having only one end in the vise. The clamp could go all the way across the bench top, or the middle tool tray can be used as you see here. If it were a very large pannel or for some reason needed to be at an angle I can also clamp to the front legs as they are in the same vertical plane as the bench front.

Andy

[Andy Howard]

One last pic of the front vise closed.

The rear metal jaw of the vise is in a slot cut on the underside of the bench.

Sorry to monopolize or hijack your thread Eric. Hopefully I have added something usefull to the discussion.

Andy

[Eric Sink]

Sorry to monopolize or hijack your thread Eric.

Not at all. Threads should be monopolized by "people of clue".

:)

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks Andy, Very helpful to have other people ideas and explanation for organising your own thoughts. Thanks for the effort in typing it all out.

Robert

[Ruston Hughes]

Andy,

Help me out with one question. What's that small black tool sitting next to that nice Knight coffin smoother?:D:p:D

[Mike Weaver]

I'd like to cap it, both for strength and to hide the plywood edge. But I really want the tray to be removable.
I also think you should consider capping it. As for making the tool tray removable, just set it on ledges and it can easily be lifted out. I also like the idea of making it in at least two sections so that one half could be lifted out.

My benchtop (still under construction) is ~19" wide before the front dog hole apron/strip, but the more I look at benches with tool trays, the more I am drawn to them & may consider adding one.

As for the sort strtechers, I agree with others - it's not needed.

I can't comment on the twin screw, but like the look of it.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas & "pics".

-Mike

[Andy Howard]

Andy,

Help me out with one question. What's that small black tool sitting next to that nice Knight coffin smoother?:D:p:D

That would be my stereo remote! Gotta have my tunes in the shop. Also have the worktunes earmuffs with radio. Makes it much more enjoyable for me.

Andy

[chris del]

That bench looks very familiar....
Built mine 2 years ago. Rather simple design, east to build and very functional. Not as pretty as most benches, but for a first bench I am happy.
Top is 3 1/2" thick Jatoba, base in ash. Weight is in the 350lbs range.
and yes, I am left handed.

Chris

[chris del]

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i309/pickeringwoodworker/Picture335.jpgpic of the Veritas twin screw vice

[Joel Moskowitz]

OVerall I think it's strong enough. I agree with the drilling holes all the way - two comments:


install the vice by burying the rear jaw in the body of the bench. then extend the front apron all the way so that when you clamp something it's always against front edge of the entire bench - not offset by a rear jaw like you have drawn.

with the entire front of the bench working as a rear jaw you can trivally clamp long boards with just a c clamp to the apron and the main vise

2: I find tool trays a total waste of space and just a garbage collector.

[Eric Sink]

Not as pretty as most benches

Actually, to my eye, your bench is about the prettiest one I've seen here. I suppose many folks might find Tony Sade's bench to be more attractive (and it's gorgeous), but your bench really caught my eye, in both form and function. I suppose that's why my design is so similar to yours.

[chris del]

OVerall I think it's strong enough. I agree with the drilling holes all the way -

2: I find tool trays a total waste of space and just a garbage collector.


The holes have to go all the way thru for 2 reasons. 1, if they dont, they will fill up with junk, and secondly, if you bench dogs get pushed below the table surface, you can poke them up from the underside.

The tool tray is a bit of a junk collector but it is also very handy to put stuff out of the way when working .
Also, if you only have a 12" planer you can pass the top sections thru it during construction

Most important, make it heavy!!!!!

[Alex Yeilding]

A couple of thoughts, Eric:

Consider insetting the rear jaw of your front vise to line up with the edge of the front slab. If you use this vise to hold material while you plane an edge, you will appreciate having the other end of your workpiece next to the slab, where it can be clamped.

I like the idea, mentioned by several, of joining the long stretchers with a knock-down joint of some kind. And at least a top and bottom shoulder on the stretcher will make them more effective.

Like you, I built my trestle base with laminations. And "cutting" a through mortise this easy way let me join the legs to the top bearer and foot very securely. Each of these mortises was beveled out a few degrees, then the tenons were wedged. Those joints are so incredibly rigid that I ended up canning the short stretchers as not adding anything.

Consider the height of your bottom stretchers. Yours look high enough, but on my first bench (still my power tool and assebly bench) I made those strechers too low, and with a shelf, that means that things that roll under there stay unless there is an unusual effort to clean them out. Yours looks high enough for a broom, but consider that.

You need to consider bench leveling. If it will be moved from place to place, you might want to add some adjustable feet. If it will stay in one place, put the foot pads on temporarily, then use wedges to level the bench, then use the thickness to which you drove the wedges as guides to adjusting the thickness of the foot pads you attach permanently.

[Eric Sink]

As requested, I am posting an update on how my workbench plan has changed based on the wisdom offered here.

1. Everybody confirmed I should leave the dogholes all the way through the benchtop. Done.

2. I slightly increased the overhang on the left side so all the dogholes will be unblocked on the bottom side.

3. I added tenons in the stretchers, although I have shoulders on just 2 sides of the tenon, not all 4 sides. The stretchers are only an inch thick, and I'm currently wondering if they need to be thicker.

4. The tool tray is now 2 pieces.

5. The tool tray is now half an inch thick instead of 3/4. I can later change this to 1/4 easily, now that its thickness affects no other aspect of the design.

6. Instead of a dado, the tool tray is now resting on a ledge, made of a small strip of wood glued to the side of the slab. This makes the tray easier to remove, and also allows...

7. An end cap on the left side.

8. The front vise now has its rear jaw flush with the front of the bench. And since I was doing this, and since I really wanted an excuse to use dovetails somehow, I added a front apron. :)

9. The apron is only on 3 sides. The back side of the bench is intentionally left without an apron for flexibility with clamping.

10. I removed the short stretchers.

11. The endcap is no longer attached with a tenon/dado. It will be affixed with the bolts from the twin screw vise.

12. Lowered the height from 36 inches to 35.

Thanks to everybody for the excellent advice. I think I'm mostly happy with the plan as it sits right now. The software currently estimates the bench will be just over 440 pounds.

New pictures below.

Main view of the bench, this time from the left side:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench2_01.png

Picture of the underside from the rear, showing the lack of apron on that side:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench2_02.png

The partially assembled trestle, with tenons on the stretchers:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench2_03.png

The right end of the bench (not sure why I took the shot from this angle) before the endcap and tray, showing the absence of the short stretcher and the little ledge where the tray will sit:

http://sawdust.com/creek/bench/bench2_04.png

Thanks again!

[Mike Weaver]

<snip>
6. Instead of a dado, the tool tray is now resting on a ledge, made of a small strip of wood glued to the side of the slab. This makes the tray easier to remove, and also allows... I might suggest just using a couple of screws to attach the ledge...would prevent [potential] glue failure frm killing a tool when your prized Stanley #2 is on the tray. :eek:



8. The front vise now has its rear jaw flush with the front of the bench. And since I was doing this, and since I really wanted an excuse to use dovetails somehow, I added a front apron. :)
I would also suggest you bring the movable jaw flush with the end ofthe bench for better support when crosscutting.

I hope this helps; Looks great & I look forward to the real pictures.
-Mike

[John Schreiber]

Eric,

It's looking really good. I haven't built a "real" bench myself, but I've been planning one for a while so here are my thoughts.

It's wider than I would like, but that is a matter of personal preference.

I would add some wedges at the ends of the tool tray to allow for sweeping dust etc. out. The removable tool tray to allow for clamping is a really good idea.

Be sure to model in the vise hardware to make sure it doesn't intersect with the leg at that side. I'd move/extend the front vise all the way to the edge. This allows for the workpiece to be fully supported when sawing. That does introduce some problems though. Consider running the apron all the way to the edge so that the vise will clamp against a single surface rather than the dovetails. (In fact, I don't think the apron is necessary on that thick bench top.)

My educated guess is that the long stretchers will be plenty stiff with a tenon on the top and bottom. One reason you might consider a thicker stretcher with a full tenon is for visual balance.

I like the applied feet. You might design them so that they allow for experimentation in table height. Possibly even allow for different heights for different purposes. Higher for detail, lower for Neander work where you need to put your weight into the work.

You designed the software yourself? Wow. Let me know if you need help moving that beast around.

[Eric Sink]

I'd move/extend the front vise all the way to the edge.
Done. The previous poster suggested the same thing, and I see the point.


Consider running the apron all the way to the edge so that the vise will clamp against a single surface rather than the dovetails. (In fact, I don't think the apron is necessary on that thick bench top.)
:( Darn. I really like those dovetails. Do you think they'll be a problem with the operation of the vise?

The apron serves more than just a gratuitious excuse to incorporate dovetails into my bench. It also provides a different way of clamping things. With a long board in the front vise, I could clamp the other end of the board to the apron, since it extends down below the top slab.

For some situations, the apron may get in the way of clamping something to the top. That's why I left the apron off on the back side of the bench.

Finally, if I don't put the apron on, I'll probably still need to do something special about mounting the front vise.

Anyway, all those (admittedly somewhat anemic) reasons are why I decided to put the apron on the front.

[Mike Weaver]

Do you think they'll be a problem with the operation of the vise? If the apron is proud of the end of the bench just a skosh, I don't think the dovetail will interfere with the vise.

Just my [perhaps uninformed] $0.02.

-Mike

[John Schreiber]

Darn. I really like those dovetails. Do you think they'll be a problem with the operation of the vise?
Dovetails look good and are a sign of quality in themselves. I think that so long as you plan for wood movement, it can work there. Just be sure that the side apron has plenty of flexibility to move relative to the bench top, but that it is fixed at that corner. The long grain side apron and the cross grain top will move substantially differently from one another.

[Wiley Horne]

Eric,

Great design process! And wonderful software.

I have a few suggestions from experience. They all have to do with the installation of the twin-screw vise.

First, in your drawing it looks like the end cap (rear jaw) is an 8/4 board, no thicker. This is good. Thicker is not better in this application. A 1-3/4" thick board is excellent.

Second, LV's instructions show how you can mortise the main vise nuts into the back of the rear jaw. This is extra work, but is well worth the trouble, and is easily done if you plan ahead and make the mortise before assembling the bench. The point is to get the vise nuts as close to the outside face of the rear jaw as possible--those two nuts are the last support the vise screws will have, so you want to minimize cantilevering by getting the nuts close to the outside face of the rear jaw. This is also why you don't want an extra thick rear jaw (see first suggestion).

Third, LV's instructions show how to taper the front jaw face in the vertical dimension, so that it's about 3/32" thinner at the bottom than at the top. This is a very important step. Some folks skip it, but don't. Very easy to do if you have a lunchbox planer, or know someone who does. As the vise closes, the front jaw will deflect a bit in the vertical plane under the compressions--the 3/32" recommended by LV is about exactly the amount of deflection and so the front jaw face will be square to the work and not gap open under pressure if this instruction is followed.

Fourth, LV's instructions say to put spacer boards between the vise screws and the underside of the bench, leaving 1/16" of clearance (gap). The problem with this is that the rear jaw will sag by however much clearance you leave. That is, as you open the vise, the screw ends are going to bear on these spacer boards. I advise you to use 'zero clearance' spacer boards, so as to take up the slack, and not allow the vise jaw to sag as it is opened (cause it'll make you unhappy). Tap your spacer boards in so they are scraping on the screw threads. The vise screws will seat into the spacer boards, following the same track every time. The vise will still operate smoothly, and the screws will not chew up the spacer boards because the screws will follow the same track every time. If you follow these three steps, you can limit jaw sag to miniscule amounts.

Be glad to discuss any of this further.

Wiley