What did the ancients use?

[Jonathon Spafford]

I have always wondered what kinds of tools exited 500-1000 years ago... they made such amazing things for their time, but how did they do it all? What were the tools they would have used to make things precise? I was watching on the woodworking channel a video on how to make a smoothing plane. The tools that we use all the time like the bandsaw for cutting the cheeks and the jointer for making the bottom perfectly flat didn't exist back then... so what might they have used for those kinds of jobs? Anybody have insight?

[Ian Abraham]

The things that survive from 500 years ago are probably the top 1%, where a guy could spend all year making something. Do a search on old Viking type furniture, it was stuff you could carve from a log using an adze and a chisel. I'm sure there was also a LOT of rough and ready furniture made that went on the bonfire 50 years later :D

Having said that, 200 years ago the NZ locals were making 60 seat canoes out of single logs with STONE tools. So dont underestimate the ingenuity of the old timers ;)

Cheers

Ian

[Larry Rose]

My other passion in life besides woodworking is archaeology. Other than ceramics, about the only things left are stone objects. Nearly all of these are tools such as spear and arrow points, knives, scrapers, adzs, axes, drills and much more.

[Jonathon Spafford]

In the video I watched last night, it said that the smoothing plane is a Roman invention. To make one of those you would have had to carve out the middle, drill a hole in the side for the whatchamcallit to go through for the wedge, and then true up the bottom to flat. These are simple jobs in todays world, but back then it seems like it would have been super hard.
Hey, I've always been fascinated by ancient stuff and how they did they did these kinds of things with the limits of their technology.

[Dan Racette]

I believe that Plumb bobs and water levels get it all done right!

[Robert Rozaieski]

I think it depends on the definition of flat. If you look at hand tools from just 100 or so years ago, most are not even near flat by today's standards. It has to make you think that if these tools were not "flat" how did the craftsmen create such amazing work?:confused:

Some people will say that the tools aren't flat because of the years of environmental change (expansion and contraction of the material, etc.), however, I seriously question this explanation. It may make certain sense for wooden planes, but for tools like chisels, it does not.

Most chisels from 100 or so years ago are found with severely out of flat faces (backs). Did they get this way because of environmental conditions? Not likely that metal expansion and contraction would create a tool that severely out of flat. Abuse by a previous owner? I have my doubts. If this were the case, then at least some of the 19th century tools we find would be fairly flat but most aren't.

I think the tools are this way because the craftsmen worked to different expectations and with better understanding of their tools. After all, most of their tools were hand forged by a smith also trying to make a living. There were no surface grinders and no one spending hours lapping a chisel or plane iron perfectly flat when it wasn't necessary for them to be that way (think about the "ruler trick" and double bevel carving chisels).

I think that the tolerances and precision of machines has really had a major influence on what we today consider an acceptable surface and an acceptable tool. For example, how many of us have measured plane shavings with a digital caliper down to thousanths of an inch? Why?

When one builds with machines in a production environment, tolerances must be extremely tight. This is because one guy is making tenons on apron stock while another is making mortises in leg stock and any tenon needs to be able to fit any mortise.

When you are working on a one off piece, however, this isn't the case, whether you work by machine, hand or a combination of both. When we work, we can gauge one piece from another. This allows for extremely accurate transfer of dimensions. It also allows one to work without measuring devises. This is not acceptable for a production environment. This is the difference between what was acceptable in 18th and 19th century cabinet shops and what we consider acceptable today.

You ask how they kept or made their tools perfectly flat. I honestly don't think that they did, at least not by today's standards. However, I don't think that it really mattered.

These craftsmen weren't interested in getting shavings from a plane that they could read through. They were interested in getting a piece built to a certain level of quality in the least amount of time possible. They knew how to use their tools well and how to adjust the tool or their technique to achieve the desired outcome.

I am actually trying an experiment right now. I have some late 19th century firmers that I honed up without flatening the back so I can see if it really makes a difference compared to the surface ground flat backs of my A.I. chisels. I'm honing using the "ruler trick" on the chisels. Basically, creating a double bevel chisel. So far, I haven't noticed any difference but I want to use them more before I make any conclusions.

Sorry for the long winded response but this is something I have great interest in. I really think that the marketing geniuses of the modern day have distorted the "common knowledge" among today's tool users. Not that I don't appreciate a well manufactured quality tool (I did spend $300 on a set of A.I. chisels), I just think that there is a lot to be learned by thinking outside the box. Hopefully, others wll think the same and perhaps we can all experiment and maybe discover some of the lost knowledge that was once passed down from master to apprentice.

At the least it should generate some interesting discussion;) !

[harry strasil]

Lest we forget, its not the tools that make the craftsman, its the persons skill with the available tools that make him a craftsman.

Old Blacksmiths prided themselves on leaving very few hammer marks etc on the tools they made, filing and grinding etc were a laborious and time consuming job and the closer to the designated shape it could be forged the better. Today consumers want what some call a Pakistani Patina finish with lots of hammer marks, the old smiths would roll over in their graves at such lack of craftsmanship.

A reasonable flat surface can be obtained by rubbing two reasonable flat stones together and with the skill of scraping and a bit of fine charcoal dust or soot the high spots can be ascertained and with a common sharp knife can be trued to an amazing flatness.

I use a cement block to true up my stones when they need it, just rub around and around till they are flat. a sidewalk will also work.

[Dan Racette]

Consumer's need a history lesson. Plus, with CNC machining these days, I'm surprised the marketeers have our public accepting such low standards.

I don't think "flat" is as elusive as was previously mentioned. A machinists "dead flat", well maybe, but wood doesn't hold that kind of tolerances.

Remember that the egyptians built some pretty big things that were flat, surely stood the test of time, and used water levels and plumb bobs.

Pythagoros came later.

dan

[Larry Conely]

Ian,

Yea, the Maori did amazing carving with stone tools that would compete favorable with carvings done today with modern tools. I have a Maori greenstone (jade) tool from New Zealand that is an object of beauty in it's own right.

I also have a stone age chisel from Tibet. It is amazing how well crafted and beautiful the tools are. it seems impossible that they could spend so much time making such a beautiful object to then carve with it and ultimately ruin it.

Larry

[James Mittlefehldt]

I often look at historical illustrations, as this is my area of interest ie how did the old guys do it.

The Egyptians had metal tools not just stone axes, in an article in a book called Tools Of The Trade the author makes the point that they used saws that basically were little different from modern hand saws in principle. He said if you showed an ancient joiner a modern saw he might marvel at the hardness of the metal and the shape of the handle, but he would know intuitivly how to use it. Their saws were made from Bronze I believe.

In another book called Old Ways Of Working Wood the author who spent much of his spare time researching the subject for years before he wrote the book claims, rightly I suspect, that a good sawyer could fashion lumber as good as a sawmill before planing with little more than some wedges and a broad axe.

The carpenters, joiners and furniture makers, had chisels and gouges, hand planes of differing sizes and saws, you can go a long way with that selection.They also had workbenches that would not be out of place today in our shops. There is an illustration in The Workbench Book I believe of a medeavil carpenter flattening a board on a bench, and while the perspective is somewhat off, the plane is obviously a jointer and not that dissimilar from what was made in production up until the twentieth century.

I like what Harry said about how the old blacksmiths would be horrified by the pebbley finish. The same went for country cabinet makers working in pine. When they used knotty, ie cheap pine, they pretty much always painted it, they did not like exposed wood that was not clear.

[Bob Smalser]

Read Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth.

Woodworking hand tools haven't changed much from Roman times, except rod poles and story sticks preceded rules tape measures.

[James Mittlefehldt]

I second what Bob says that book was fantastic. Illustrates clearly not only how a cathederal was built but also shows the issues with finance and division of labour ie guilds etc. who did what, how they desigined and why, they did what they did.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, that was a good read!

[Joel Moskowitz]

There is a fair amount of research on this already. there is a book "woodworking before 1500" that contains most of the info. The book the Maseryk (sp) find details a viking toolbox found in a bog.

[Mike Henderson]

There is a fair amount of research on this already. there is a book "woodworking before 1500" that contains most of the info. The book the Maseryk (sp) find details a viking toolbox found in a bog.
Joel, can you give a pointer to that book, please? I searched Amazon for the title "woodworking before 1500" but nothing shows up.

Mike

[Justin James]

These might help:
Arwidsson, Greta. The Mastermyr find: a Viking age tool chest from Gotland.ISBN: 917402129X

Woodworking Techniques before A.D. 1500: Papers presented to a Symposium at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion.
ISBN: 0860541592

[Mike Henderson]

These might help:
Arwidsson, Greta. The Mastermyr find: a Viking age tool chest from Gotland.ISBN: 917402129X

Woodworking Techniques before A.D. 1500: Papers presented to a Symposium at Greenwich in September, 1980, together with edited discussion.
ISBN: 0860541592
Thanks, Justin. I searched Amazon and the web but can't find anyone offering the "Woodworking Techniques before A.D. 1500" book. If you know of any sources, please let me know.

Mike

[Justin James]

Interlibrary loan might be your best bet (or even your only option). IIRC, the editor, Sean McGrail, is an archaeologist specializing in naval archaeology. some of his stuff on naval architecture has been fascinating.

I did a quick search. I'm not sure where you are in CA, but the libraries at UCLA, UC-Riverside, Stanford University, UC-Berkeley, and UC-Davis (Shields), all claim to have copies.

[David Martino]

This might not be "early" enough for your question but isn't there a group that studies early American or colonial period work? Center for Early American Industry or something like that. I think of it every once in a while when I wonder what the old guys did for basic things we pick up without thinking like
sandpaper?
finishes?
nails and screws?
Presumably there were home recipes, the local blacksmith, and other ways of working (what is the history of sandpaper???)... but the economics and how that affected the people doing the work and what they made seems like an interesting question.

Catalogs like Lee Valley and Tools for Working Wood have books that are reprints or studies of early working habits... things like Moxon or diaries of a village wheelwright type of thing. Been meaning to check them out some day.

Books like American Furniture of the 18th Century by Greene (the experts here will know others) are interesting because they show how furniture styles changed with new technology. Turning arrives, and voila - furniture starts sporting a lot of spindles. There's a big difference when you look at a Jacobean chest (heavy, square, joinery that hadn't changed in a looong time) and the explosion of styles (Queen Anne, Chippendale, etc.) that came just a few years later. Many of those changes were prompted but new tools or new social realities. I could be wrong but much of the amazing furniture that we still admire and copy is more recent, 1800s and later.

And there are a few original neanderthals lurking here who can fill you in first hand, from memory! They weigh in from time to time, usually about planes. Thanks for an interesting question.

[Jonathon Spafford]

Wow... lots of replies! I have always wondered what them people would have used... kinda of been fascinating to me. I guess I'll have to check a couple of books out from the library! Some interesting replies here!!!

[harry strasil]

a rather crude form of sandpaper called glass paper with fine glass glued to it was used, but sharkskin was preffered, and it has the added advantage of having different grits between the head and the tail and it only cuts in one direction.

scraping and burnishing were also used, burnishing give a very smooth feel and looks glossy.

[Larry Williams]

What is meant by "ancients?" Albrecht Durer's etching "Melancholia" done in 1514 clearly shows a well developed and refined plane . In fact, the plane shown doesn't vary much from what Felibien illustrated in his French books about 200 years later.

http://www.math.umd.edu/%7Eatma/durer23.jpg

[Jeff Johnson]

The carpenters, joiners and furniture makers, had chisels and gouges, hand planes of differing sizes and saws, you can go a long way with that selection.They also had workbenches that would not be out of place today in our shops. There is an illustration in The Workbench Book I believe of a medeavil carpenter flattening a board on a bench, and while the perspective is somewhat off, the plane is obviously a jointer and not that dissimilar from what was made in production up until the twentieth century.
This one? It dates from 1500.

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_6200723/.HomePage/__sr_/a8c6.jpg?grW2wzFBiM4H.9ld

[Chris Bolton]

There is a neat website at
http://www.geocities.com/gpkillen/ which covers some of the tools, techniques and furniture of the Ancient Egyptians. I'm amazed that they could cut what they could using a saw made out of copper.

[Jeff Johnson]

http://www.irontreeworks.com/Mastermyr_Original.jpg

The Mastermyr tool box. There are some websites out there for blacksmiths that have reproduced the tools.

http://www.irontreeworks.com/mastermyr.htm

[Jeff Johnson]

a rather crude form of sandpaper called glass paper with fine glass glued to it was used, but sharkskin was preffered, and it has the added advantage of having different grits between the head and the tail and it only cuts in one direction.

scraping and burnishing were also used, burnishing give a very smooth feel and looks glossy.

And dogfish.

[David Martino]

Does that come in the standard 5-hole with a hook-and-loop?

Seriously, thanks for the info - if you're not pulling my leg? - that's fascinating. I have to imagine the sharkskin solution wasn't common because of availability... but who knows? Plenty of fish in the sea. Furniture from at least the 18th c. often has a very refined finish, glossy and smooth even with lots of carving and detail. Scraping and burnishing sound like the kind of simple (but high-skill, high-effort) means they would have had.

How do you burnish wood? I'm only familiar with the steel edge burnishers for scrapers etc.

[harry strasil]

just a piece of hardwood with a rounded edge, you press down on it and rub it back and forth to obtain a shine or sheen.

I learned about the sharkskin and burnishing watching a period cabrila (sp) chair leg carving segment on ST ROY's show years ago.

[Wiley Horne]

There is a book recently published, titled "Roman Woodworking", by Roger Ulrich. The book discusses tools; joinery of furniture and timber frames (including some complex keyed scarf joints); construction of foundations, frames, walls, roofs and ceilings, interior trim; furniture and veneers; timber; and other topics.

Much of the Roman tooling would be instantly recognizable on this Forum. Although axes and adzes were a mainstay, they also had developed spoon bits and rudimentary gimlet bits (with square tapered shanks!); frame saws, bowsaws, and bucksaws. Sculptures and paintings have been found of furniture with turned legs--as well as finds of actual turned legs--which indicates they had some form of lathes. They had socketed outcannel gouges and chisels. They had workbenches you would recognize, including one painting which shows a workbench with the familiar L-shaped holddown much like you might buy from Joel or Lee Valley today. There was a great variety of planes, mostly all wood, but some 20 examples of iron-shoed and -sided planes that we would call 'infills' with no stretch of the imagination. Roman plane blades as found were bedded between 50 and 66 degrees, so they knew all about high-angle bedding. The blades which have been found had various degrees of camber on them. It goes on....calipers and marking gauges with slide arms and wedges, squares, clamps utilizing wooden screws--it's really pretty amazing.

Lots of good stuff on how the Romans constructed trussed roofs capable of clear-spanning upwards of 80 feet. Details on half-timbered construction techniques.

The list on this book is too high at $85, but it'll get remaindered down pretty soon. I got mine for $42, and it'll get cheaper.

Wiley

[Jonathon Spafford]

There is a neat website at
http://www.geocities.com/gpkillen/ which covers some of the tools, techniques and furniture of the Ancient Egyptians. I'm amazed that they could cut what they could using a saw made out of copper.

That is one awesome site... amazing stuff in there! Those ancients weren't as primitive as we sometimes imagine!

[Jonathon Spafford]

This one? It dates from 1500.

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_6200723/.HomePage/__sr_/a8c6.jpg?grW2wzFBiM4H.9ld
Couldn't open this webpage... Anyone else have the same trouble???

[Jerry Palmer]

Couldn't open this webpage... Anyone else have the same trouble???

Couldn't get in there either.

[Jim King]

I have no idea of the exact numbers but to be sure technology is advancing thousands of times faster than it did just 100 years ago.

The question: What are people going to think of us the group of cavemen roaming the earth today 1000 years from now ¿?

Do you think there will still be a need for schools or will up to date knowledge be connectable direct to the brain ?

Do you think people will still be flying around the world in those big bean cans with fire shooting out the end and hoping they can stop it smoothly ?

Endless conversation, but fun.

[Mike Henderson]

The question: What are people going to think of us the group of cavemen roaming the earth today 1000 years from now ¿?
I only hope that the human race will still be here 1,000 years from now. It's going to take some real technology and changes to the way we live to accomplish that.

Mike

[paul womack]

I have always wondered what kinds of tools exited 500-1000 years ago... they made such amazing things for their time, but how did they do it all? What were the tools they would have used to make things precise?

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/wood.shtml

BugBear

[James Mittlefehldt]

WOW, thanks for that link Paul, I just spent an hour and a half going through that site and a FEW of the links. I am sure I will be spending some time there in future.

Interesting that the one tool chest discussed had both woodworkers and metal workers tools in it. Reminds me of Bob Smalser looks as if the boat making trade has not chnged a whole lot in the past milenium.

I am almost inspired to work up a design for a chest based on those Viking ones in the article.

[Jonathon Spafford]

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/wood.shtml

BugBear

That is an amazing site! Really chock full of information. Barely looked at it, but I want to read through it when I got some time). Thanks for posting it!

[David Martino]

Very cool site.

Here's an example of what they built with those tools (if I figured out how to attach photos right...).

Not bad... and not a router in sight.