New house going up, need power suggestions

[John Kain]

Well, the family and I took a huge step and decided to built a house. It's a great design. Of course, my favorite portion is the space in the basement that I've dedicated to my workshop. It'll (hopefully) be roughly 800-900 sqft.

I have already made arrangements for 240V wiring to the shop area. 3-phase is out of the question. If you had to wire up a new shop area, what would you have installed in terms of electrical design?

[Nancy Laird]

MORE electrical outlets - LOTS of electrical outlets. You will find that you will want/need an electrical outlet about every 4 feet around the perimeter of your shop, at waist level or higher to clear your workbenches, and you'll also want floor outlets or ceiling drops at the machines that aren't against the wall. You can NEVER have enough electrical outlets.

Just my .02, based on several years of experience.

Nancy

....

[Kyle Kraft]

For a one man hobby shop, 100 amp is plenty.

[Tom Jones III]

Floor and/or ceiling mounted plugs. I've gone the route of no extension cords in my shop except for hand tool use and I am very happy I did.

Don't forget to think about DC routing while you are planning.

[Ted Miller]

John, I have a very small shop/garage and I laid out all my machines then added the 220s for the larger equipment then I added double gang outlets every 48" as Nancy mentioned. 100 amps did the job, 3/4" conduit for the 220 with #10 wire and 1/2" conduit with #12 wire for the 120s. Two double pull 30 amp breakers for the 220 and 20 amp breakers for the 120 outlets. Lighting I pulled from the single garage light and put up 8' flourescents...

[John Kain]

The house is set up for 200A service.

As a self-confessed moron on the subject of electrical power, what exactly do I need running from the street to the shop? The builder said it's no problem wiring the shop for 240V, however didn't give specifics. What type of wiring will ensure enough power to the shop. I plan on running a 220V DC and a 220V saw/or J/P at the same time (for instance, DC pulls 12.5A, TS pulls 13A, planning on large J/P combo)

Again, my moronic understanding of electricity limits my ability to ask cogent questions on this subject. Please forgive me:o.

[Jim Fox]

220, 221 whatever it takes!

[Jim Becker]

Honestly, wiring your shop in a typical new home shouldn't provide much of a problem. In fact, you're in the ideal situation that you can provide your lighting circuits and other non-tool uses from the regular house service from the get-go and have a sub-panel dedicated to machinery...which means you can have a central cut-off for all machines for safety. That's really nice, especially for a shop inside the house. And the sub-panel will allow you flexibility over time with adding circuits, etc. with a minimum of hassles.

I happen to prefer dedicated circuits for machines, but even in my own shop, I've made some "convenience" accommodations on a couple 240v circuits to be able to reposition some machines if necessary. Branching is done in j-boxes in that instance. DC and Compressor definitely need dedicated circuits and there should be at least one more for tools...assuming one-person working in the shop at a time. Again, I still prefer dedicated for each machine, too. With the continued escalation in the price of copper, you might as well put in the heavier stuff now so you don't have to re-buy later.

Oh...with the exception of my older MM16 which is "only" 3.8hp and runs on 20amp 240v, my J/P takes a 30 amp circuit. (as does the slider) With that in mind, it is a good idea to pre-wire your 240v circuits with #10 wire for flexiblity over time. The 4.8hp motors require it and you can still do 20 amp termination/breaker for circuits that only need that on the heavier wire.

[D.McDonnel "Mac"]

Double-Gang (4 plugs) 52" above the floor every 4 linear feet around the perimeter of the shop. I ran a seperate 20 amp circuit for each wall of my shop.

A 220 circuit on each wall

A dedicated 220 and 110 circui to the middle of the shop for the Island tools (tablesaw, Jointer?, router in extension tbl?)

Ceiling plugs for pull down extension cord reels.

Ligting circuit seperate from tool circuits.

Consider a couple of track light runs for task lighting on top of General lighting florescents. These require switched outlets in the ceiling.

One more thing have a disconnect box installed to run all the tool circuits through. Pull down the arm on the way out of the shop and the tool circuits are dead!

MAc

[Pete Brown]

I happen to prefer dedicated circuits for machines, but even in my own shop, I've made some "convenience" accommodations on a couple 240v circuits to be able to reposition some machines if necessary. Branching is done in j-boxes in that instance. DC and Compressor definitely need dedicated circuits and there should be at least one more for tools...assuming one-person working in the shop at a time. Again, I still prefer dedicated for each machine, too. With the continued escalation in the price of copper, you might as well put in the heavier stuff now so you don't have to re-buy later.

240v outlets must be on dedicated circuits according to my electrician and my inspector, no matter what. They consider them stationary/dedicated even if not used simultaneously.

I made all my 240v circuits 30A and all my outlets 30A twist-lock plugs. I also put in a ton of outlets on 120V 20A circuits. I have it set up so I have one circuit per wall with the 120V outlets, but more/less may suit you better.

I also highly recommend a dedicated panel in the shop with 100 or more amps. I found 100 works well for me and my tools, as I'm a one-man shop. That also runs AC for me in the summer and a couple (ineffective) electric heaters in the winter.

Outlets above your head on pull-down wires can be helpful for sanding and similar. You'll also want a couple on the ceiling for things like air cleaners anyway.

Put in more light than you think you'll need. The older you get the more light you will need. Also see the threads on using electronic ballasts (no hum, no flicker) and full-spectrum lamps. I also have a couple pages on that here (http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Layout/Lighting/Lighting.aspx) and here (http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Layout/Lighting/CompareFluorescents.aspx).

If you have forced air for heat/air, you will likely need to take extra steps to keep the rest of the house clean from your dust. You don't want air intakes in the shop, but you'll need to make up the air somehow. An HVAC person can tell you how. Ideally, you'd be on a separate zone, but that isn't always practical money-wise.

Also run a phone and cable TV line in there and some sort of "dinner's ready" buzzer :)

BTW, make your ceiling as high as possible (within reason), and consider some sort of closet for your DC.

Pete

[Pete Brown]

The house is set up for 200A service.

As a self-confessed moron on the subject of electrical power, what exactly do I need running from the street to the shop? The builder said it's no problem wiring the shop for 240V, however didn't give specifics. What type of wiring will ensure enough power to the shop. I plan on running a 220V DC and a 220V saw/or J/P at the same time (for instance, DC pulls 12.5A, TS pulls 13A, planning on large J/P combo)

Again, my moronic understanding of electricity limits my ability to ask cogent questions on this subject. Please forgive me:o.

You may run out of headroom with 200A total for the whole house, depending if you use gas for dryer/heater/stove etc or electric. I had my small house upgraded to 400A so I could run 100A to my shed and still support everything else. We have oil heat (forced air blower), but everything else is electric.

If you can do that while building, it will be cheaper than doing it later.

Pete

[Brian Tuftee]

The house is set up for 200A service.

As a self-confessed moron on the subject of electrical power, what exactly do I need running from the street to the shop? The builder said it's no problem wiring the shop for 240V, however didn't give specifics. What type of wiring will ensure enough power to the shop. I plan on running a 220V DC and a 220V saw/or J/P at the same time (for instance, DC pulls 12.5A, TS pulls 13A, planning on large J/P combo)

Again, my moronic understanding of electricity limits my ability to ask cogent questions on this subject. Please forgive me:o.

Are you going to wire the shop separately from the house? I ask, since you mentioned "street to the shop" in your post. Normally, you'd just take the shop power from the house's main panel. If I was designing it, I'd use wiring suitable for 300A (250kcmil copper) coming into your meter, then to the main disconnect, then break it out separately into a 200A panel for the house, and run feeders for a 100A panel in the workshop. You'd probably spec #4 copper for the feeders to the shop panel, unless it's a really long distance, then you might upsize to #3 to reduce voltage drop. The 100A panel in the shop would supply all of your needs there.

In the shop itself, I'd have a ring of 20A, 120V duplex receptacles at about 48" off the floor, every 4-6 feet or so. This may sound like a lot, but no one ever complains about having a plug located conveniently when they want one. Plus, a few extra outlets are cheap when compared with a whole house! A couple of overhead outlets would be nice too. Also, don't skimp on the lighting, for a 20x40' shop (800sqft), I'd probably have at least 8 two-tube, 4-foot flourescent light units, wired to be switched in groups of two. Also think about your dust collection, how it'll be triggered - do you want some switched receptacles for that? You may also want to consider using switched receptacles in the ceiling to run your lighting, instead of hard-wired light fixtures - this depends on whether you'll go and buy your flouresecent lights with plugs on, or have the electrician just install them when the shop is wired.

Have dedicated circuits for any stationary equipment, like a TS, BS, DC, etc. The ring of 20A duplex outlets, I would put those on at least two different circuits. A lot of this is overkill, but hey, if you're doing it from scratch you might as well build something that you'll never outgrow.

[Jim Becker]

Pete, relative to the discussion about branching 240v circuits. In some areas, and apparently where you live, local enforcment prohibits branching. In other areas, such as where I live, it's not an issue unless an "appliance" is involved. (Dryer, Oven, Range, Hot Water, etc.) For a shop, no problem as long as the branching is done in a J-Box. I asked. In fact, we don't even need a permit for electrical, just an independent inspection. Now, plumbing...that's a real money-maker for them...of the fine-toothed comb type! Oy!

[Pete Brown]

Pete, relative to the discussion about branching 240v circuits. In some areas, and apparently where you live, local enforcment prohibits branching. In other areas, such as where I live, it's not an issue unless an "appliance" is involved. (Dryer, Oven, Range, Hot Water, etc.) For a shop, no problem as long as the branching is done in a J-Box. I asked. In fact, we don't even need a permit for electrical, just an independent inspection. Now, plumbing...that's a real money-maker for them...of the fine-toothed comb type! Oy!

I think I'll move to PA :)

Around here, Plumbing, Electrical and HVAC must all be done by locally licensed professionals and fully inspected. Homeowners are not allowed to do any of it, even under supervision, although I have messed with it (http://www.irritatedvowel.com/HomeImprovement/ShowerHandles.aspx) a little. :)

Honestly, I thought the 240v outlet issue was NEC, not local, as our local electrical codes are NEC. It's all up to the inspectors, though. What they say rules no matter what it says in print.

BTW, having done some plumbing, I'm happy to leave it to the pros!

Pete

[John Kain]

Well, I spoke with the builder who is going to look into 300A into the house with a dedicated 100A of that to the shop with a panel for machinery electrical cut-off as Jim recommended. That's one added safety precaution as I have children in the house. I'm finishing the basement myself to cut down on construction costs. I'll certainly make sure to place outlets all over the place as suggested and have an electrician design the best wiring scheme. Another nice thing about placing the drywall later is that I'll know what machine will go where and design the dedicated 220V outlets accordingly.

I forgot about adding a closet for the DC. Actually, there will be a dead space behind one of purposed walls that should work great.

[Paul Wingert]

The house is set up for 200A service.

As a self-confessed moron on the subject of electrical power, what exactly do I need running from the street to the shop? The builder said it's no problem wiring the shop for 240V, however didn't give specifics. What type of wiring will ensure enough power to the shop. I plan on running a 220V DC and a 220V saw/or J/P at the same time (for instance, DC pulls 12.5A, TS pulls 13A, planning on large J/P combo)

Again, my moronic understanding of electricity limits my ability to ask cogent questions on this subject. Please forgive me:o.

Are you going to wire the shop yourself? If the main breaker box is in the basement, it's easy to put a 100A breaker in it and then run a subpanel to your shop. If the main breaker box is in the garage (or elsewhere), you might want the builder to run the subpanel for you, if you are uncomfortable, but it's not that difficult of a DIY job.

I'd recommend going to the library/bookstore for a good "basic wiring" book. It will answer all your questions. DIY wiring isn't hard, but you need to know what you are doing.

[Gary Lange]

Design the Shop layout now and get all the wiring needs installed including the 220V and 110V in the floor especially if they will install a raised wood floor. If no wood floor I have seen some Rubber Matting from the same place that does it for the Workout Centers and Weigh Lifting places that is 1/4" thick comes in big sheets and would make a comfortable floor. Getting tool locations layed out and wiring run when you get it built will save you a lot of headaches.

[Steve Kohn]

It may be buried in all the other advice, but make sure your wall outlet (110 or 220) are at least 50 inches off the finished floor. This allows plywood, benches, and machinery to be placed on the walls without blocking access to the plugs.

Something else to think about (I wish I had done this) is to "Home Run" wire all your outlets back to the service panel in the shop. If you can afford it also have 10 guage wire installed. If the 10 guage wire is too expensive, then put 12 guage into conduit. That way you can change and plug on the wall between 110 and 220 with a breaker and outlet change.

[Jeff Heil]

I second what Brian said about multiple circuits. I ran 2 duplex outlets per double gang box spaced every 4' on both side walls of my basement shop (6 sets on each wall.) I ran 2 circuits on each side of the shop. All the left outlets on one 20amp circuit on each wall and all the right outlets as a second 20amp circuit, for a total of four general purpose circuits for the shop. (I have to credit my electrical engineer father-in-law for the concept) This way I can plug in a tool on one circuit and a shop vac for dust collection on a seperate one. Or my small 110v Jet 1100DC on one circuit and my table router on a second without streching a cord to get to another circuit. I put the lights on their own dedicated switches and circuits. I hated blowing a breaker in my old house and having the lights go out.

Also have your electrician install a large 200 amp panel, my neighbor also has 200amp service but his panel is significantly smaller than my panel. They must come in different sizes. Of course you will have to calculate the load.

Good luck, planning from scratch makes life easier!

[Wayne Gauthier]

You should have a dedicated wiring plan for the electricians when they wire the home.
The power can come off of your main house panel to a dedicated subpanel in your basement, with all your lighting, 120 and 220 volt outlets going to that panel.
There is no need to run a seperate line with a seperate meter for your basement shop.

I have a 50amp breaker to my shop off my main from the house, and have plenty of power to run whatever I need. I have 3 220volt machines, plus my dryer in the shop. I have never tripped the breaker, of course those three machines are not all running at the same time, but, the dryer may be running on Sunday am, with lights on and one 220volt machine running at the same time. My house is all electric, and I only have a 150 amp panel for the house and shop.

Wayne

[Charles Grosjean]

I have already made arrangements for 240V wiring to the shop area. 3-phase is out of the question. If you had to wire up a new shop area, what would you have installed in terms of electrical design?

Regardless of what you think you need now, I would install a system that allows you to expand/reconfigure in the future without punching holes in the wall or running conduit all over the place.

To this end, take a look at the Wiremold 4000 and 6000 series of surface mount raceways. It's a little expensive and it's visible, but if you run it around the perimeter of the shop, you can add/move circuits and outlets to your panels content. Commonly used in laboratory/industrial settings.

If it were me, I would run a couple of conduits between the panel and the raceway. That way, you can pull directly from the panel to the final destination and adding/changing wires is reasonably easy. Romex is cheaper, but less flexible when your needs change. Since it's new construction, you can hide all the messy stuff in the wall.

Also, plan now where you would put a phase converter if you had one and how you would distribute it's wiring. You never know what you might end up with.

As always, consult your friendly licensed electrician.

[Michael Lutz]

When I did the wiring in my basement shop, I ran a 70 A sub panel and set it right next to my main panel which happened to be in the shop area. I ran the lights off the existing circuit in the space which was seperate from the tool power in the subpanel. I set up a 20A 240V circuit dedicated for the dust collector (I ran #10 wires so I could upgrade if necessary). I also ran a dedicated 20A 110V for my portable compressor (which could be upgraded to 240V in the future without running new wires). From the box I ran 30A 240V outlets right and left. The right circuit has three outlets on it. The left circuit currently is terminated in a junction box, since I don't have any 240V tools on that side yet. All the 240V tools in the shop have 30A plugs on them. For the 120V circuits I ran 2 circuits each way around the room. In each duplex box I have an outlet for each circuit. Each outlet is color-coded white or gray so I can tell which one I am using. I surface mounted all the outlets and connected everything with EMT conduit. It is easier that way to add to the system if needed.

The NEC code specifies the use of GFI outlet protection for unfinished basement space. Strict compliance with the code would I guess depend on your definition of unfinished space. I epoxied the floor and Painted Drylock to the walls, so I guess I would call that finished space.:D

Mike

[Larry Copas]

I wired my shop the same as Jeff for the same reasons. Thought I was quite smart for doing it that way. But I’ve always wondered if having outlets on different circuits in the same box conforms to NEC. I’ll leave that up to the electricians to answer.

[Pete Brown]

I wired my shop the same as Jeff for the same reasons. Thought I was quite smart for doing it that way. But I’ve always wondered if having outlets on different circuits in the same box conforms to NEC. I’ll leave that up to the electricians to answer.

I just did some reading up on this and found some interesting stuff.

One thing that is overlooked is that if you do have two outlets on separate circuits in the same box, they need to be from the same phase of power, otherwise you get a potential 240v in that double-gang box instead of 120v. It's not a huge deal, just more dangerous.

For safety, if not for code compliance, you'll want to put connectors on the breakers that makes them both trip together.

Pete

[Jim Becker]

For safety, if not for code compliance, you'll want to put connectors on the breakers that makes them both trip together.

Yup...this is one place where using a dual-ganged breaker is the correct choice for 120v operation...if you need to kill one circuit, you want the other one to go away simultaniously since they share workspace in the outlet boxes.

[Greg Peterson]

One thing that is overlooked is that if you do have two outlets on separate circuits in the same box, they need to be from the same phase of power, otherwise you get a potential 240v in that double-gang box instead of 120v. It's not a huge deal, just more dangerous.

For safety, if not for code compliance, you'll want to put connectors on the breakers that makes them both trip together.


Okay, I'm not sure I'm following this phase part. I thought that the two copper busses were out of phase with each other. By placing two breakers side by side, they are each connecting to a seperate buss, thus making them out of phase. To get both breakers on the same phase, they would have to connect to either the same tab on the buss or another tab on that buss elsewhere in the service panel.

[Rick Christopherson]

To get both breakers on the same phase, they would have to connect to either the same tab on the buss or another tab on that buss elsewhere in the service panel.Correct, unless you use half-height breakers.

The problem with the advise presented previously on this is that someone will do this with a shared neutral and overload the neutral. You cannot put two circuits on the same phase and share the neutral. The current through the neutral would be additive unless the two circuits were from alternate phases.

If you use a shared neutral, then you must use a 2-pole breaker spanning both phases. I do not believe it is required to use a 2-pole breaker if two separate circuits are placed in the same junction box. If this were not true, then half the lighting in your house would have to be on the same circuit.

[Jim Becker]

CI do not believe it is required to use a 2-pole breaker if two separate circuits are placed in the same junction box. If this were not true, then half the lighting in your house would have to be on the same circuit.

The context of that discussion wasn't j-boxes where multiple unrelated circuits are common, it was outlet boxes with one outlet on one circuit and the other on a different circuit. I suspect you'll agree that killing both simultaneously so you can work on one of the other would be preferred!

[Rick Christopherson]

Jim, Yes I agree that it is preferred, but I am not sure it is required. Two circuits on the same yoke or with a common neutral need to be on a 2-pole breaker.

[Greg Peterson]

If I read this correctly, a half height breaker will do the trick, so long as I keep the nuetrals from the two circuits seperate.

Forgive my ignorance, is there a circumstance where one would want or need to share a nuetral?

[Bill Brady]

You will share the neutral if you run a 3 wire romex, or 2 hots and a single neutral in a conduit. The double pole is not required for a multi wire circuit, it was in a code from the lare 80's or early 90's (don't want to date myself to much). I have always ran a neutral for each hot wire so there was not a worry about an overloaded neutral but this does take more wire and with the cost of copper this is an added expence.