Need opinions on older PM66 I want to buy

[Matthew Moreno]

I was about ready to order the Grizzly G1023SLW for $1050 +freight when I found a Powermatic Model 66 probably from the seventies for sale for $800.
When I called, it turns out it belonged to a man that taught shop at a state school for mentally challenged people, and his widow thinks he got it at a surplus sale through the school back in the mid-seventies. She said he used it from time to time and doesn't remember what he paid for it. Her son in law is the one who set the price. He told me it took about 5 guys to move it, and that the extension is all cast iron. The fence is original, but the miter is not.

The serial # is 766020 and it says Powermatic Houdaille on the tag. The motor is a Baldor, looks like it is a different color than the saw. It runs smooth. After all my due dilligence in getting ready to buy my TS, I was convinced that the Grizzly was the best deal "for the money". But now I need some opinions.

Is $800 too much for a saw this old?

Does anyone know how old it is from the serial number?

What do all you more experienced guys reccomend? The Grizzly or this PM66?

I have learned so much from reading from this forum!

Thanks!

[Jim Becker]

Wow! I've never seen a cast iron extension that wide!

["Gary Brewer"]

Matt: What size is the motor? ( HP?) 110 volts or 220? Did it get commercial use? Probably. ( This would lower the price in my book. ) Probably not an unfair price but I would want a bigger price difference between the pm and the Grizzly in order to risk it on an older machine ( i.e. no warrenty ). It would give you something ( $$) to work with if something was wrong. Did you put an accurate straight edge across the top and check for wear and level with a feeler gauge? Is the miter slot tight or sloppy? If it was less than 3 hp I wouldn't want it. If everything is tight and in-order it would be an excellent saw.
Good luck,
Gary

[Mark Riegsecker]

Matt, I would jump on that in a second for $800. But that's me. And you don't think a sliding table is in your near future.

Gary has a point about it being up to snuff but one must assume a new one is better in all those catagories as well. You only have to read some of the archives relating to disappointments in new stuff today to understand new may not be better.

I have a 1.5 hp hooked to 220 on my table saw, sometimes I wish it were bigger but I've used it for 25 years and it has more often satisfied me than not or I would have replaced it years ago.

This saw your looking at doesn't look beat-up. A bigger motor is probably easy to replace if you find 3 hp better fits your needs. A bent arbor is a different story. If you can try it first that would be a plus.

Good luck Mark

[Matthew Moreno]

It is 220 v. Don't know what HP it is. I still haven't seen it in person. I am planning on driving about 150 miles one way to go see it in the next day or two. The guy just sent me the picture. He said I can try it when I get there, and that he thinks it runs fine. Neither he nor I know how to tell if it has a bent arbor. He told me he has used it a few times, (it is his deceased father-in-law's) and it worked great. He couldn't find a HP rating on the motor. As far as the miter, he told me it is not the original and it is a little loose in the track. (its not a PM miter)

If I buy this can I find a high quality aftermarket miter that will fit? How about a Beismeyer fence? These are all questions that I knew the answers to when I was thinking Grizzly, now I am thinking PM66. I figured I could always tell him it looks a little rougher in person and see if he would take $700. The worse that can happen is he says no...

A couple more opinions Please!!

[Chris Rosenberger]

On some of Powermatic's tools, the first 2 numbers of the serial number designates the year of manufacture. I believe this saw is one of those as it looks to be from the 70's. On my 1967 PM66 the extension was steel. I have not seen one that was cast. If it was cast, it would have to weigh more than the rest of the saw. I believe that is a good price for the saw. It looks to have been taken care of.

[Joe Jensen]

It is 220 v. Don't know what HP it is. I still haven't seen it in person. I am planning on driving about 150 miles one way to go see it in the next day or two. The guy just sent me the picture. He said I can try it when I get there, and that he thinks it runs fine. Neither he nor I know how to tell if it has a bent arbor. He told me he has used it a few times, (it is his deceased father-in-law's) and it worked great. He couldn't find a HP rating on the motor. As far as the miter, he told me it is not the original and it is a little loose in the track. (its not a PM miter)

If I buy this can I find a high quality aftermarket miter that will fit? How about a Beismeyer fence? These are all questions that I knew the answers to when I was thinking Grizzly, now I am thinking PM66. I figured I could always tell him it looks a little rougher in person and see if he would take $700. The worse that can happen is he says no...

A couple more opinions Please!!

Unless the internal mechanicals are cracked or broken, THIS IS A GREAT DEAL. There are tons of very good aftermarket miter guides. The PM66 uses a standard 3/4" miter slot.

[Jim Thiel]

If you would like, I'll run on over there and check it out for you. Cut some stuff, see how well it will fit in the back of a pickup, and how it will ride down the road once loaded. Just trying to be a nice guy.

Jim

[John Grossi]

I own that Grizzley model you are looking at. Excellent saw, decent fence, no extension tables. If that PM has a nice flat table, 3hp and is mechanically sound then I would not hesitate to buy it. Your savings can then be put into a great fence and blades. All that said I would offer maybe $700.00. (no one ever pays the offer price, do they?:cool: )Good Luck Paul

[Jim Becker]

Don't worry about the miter gage being sloppy....after-market miter gages are quite available and usually much better than the OEM version. In fact, there may be a very nice Incra showing up in the SMC classifieds "real soon now"... ;)

[Dennis Hatchett]

Is $800 too much for a saw this old?
I have learned so much from reading from this forum!
Thanks!

Everyone is giving sound advice and I could agree with all of the opinions I've read on this thread. It really is a matter of personal preference.

It looks to be in good condition and I'm sure that 800 could be defended, but I think that is top dollar for such an old saw. I've gone through this process of trying to decide between old and new and it's always a risk to buy old. (I'll spare you the stories). Some old purchases work out and some are miserable failures, but here is what I've learned.

The sale price of the machine is not the real price you will pay. There are usually many costs associated with old machines after sale. In your case, once you add just some basic upgrades such as a 3hp motor and a biesemeyer fence you are in Unisaw price territory. You also have fuel costs and a day of travel.

Time is a variable because you'll spend time setting up a new saw as well but it could multiply with an old machine. And if you have plenty of time that is not a sacrifice. In fact, it is even a great pleasure for some guys to restore old machines and give them new life. I've done it but I'd rather be cutting wood.

Old machines are also like older people(meaning those of us over 40 who have their habits set for life.) The have little quirks and idiosyncracies that you have to learn and work around. They have personalities that may annoy you but they also have a proven track record that may give you confidence.

I'd probably go new in this case because of a warranty and less time and headaches involved. And there is something nice about it being your own from the beginning so you can help give it character. Just my 2 cents based on experience. But if you are interested in the old machine you could also explain the additional costs and maintenance to justify a much lower offer. I think they will have a slow go of selling it at 800.

[Jeff Weight]

Jump on it! Then add the fence of your choice and you'll have a killer saw. IMO much better than the Grizzley an American made classic. How could you go wrong?

[Jake Helmboldt]

What nobody has mentioned is the need to give the saw a thorough inspection before plunking down that cash. If it was a surplus saw from a school who knows the condition, though it looks pretty good.

Go spend $40 on a dial indicator and magnetic base. You'll want that for whatever saw you get. Do a search for saw setup or check out a book at the library. With that simple item you can measure any bend in the arbor, runout in the arbor face, and use it to dial in whatever saw when you purchase.

Also check the smoothness of the handwheels and look at the trunnions to see if there are cracks or any missing/chipped teeth for the tilt and height adjustments.

As for the motor, look at the plate to see how many amps it is. That will tell you how many HP it is, and be sure you know whether those amps are at 110 or 220 (probably 220).

Lastly, you might want to use at least a fairly decent straight edge to check if the top is warped. Probably not, but you never know. I have been using a piece of 1"x1/8"x4' aluminum stock from the hardware store as a basic straightedge. Hold two up together and look for any light between the edges. For woodworking machinery a piece of alum stock that is less than .001' off will be close enough to let you know if there are any problem areas on the tool.

Use the fact that you want to upgrade the fence and mitre, travel, and elbow grease needed to tune this saw up to try to get a little off on the price. I missed the opportunity to get an old Uni for $150 at auction. It went so fast I didn't have time to think about it because I was looking for a bandsaw at the time. Deals are out there.

JH

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It's awfully hard to fault the PM 66.
$800.00 may feel like a lot but $1050 is still more.

I really don't think Grizz is trying to out do the #66.

Add that cast iron extension table into the mix and - - - -

Well What was his number again??

[Pete Bradley]

Fixed up, this machine will blow the Griz out of the water. Before you jump though, go over to www.owwm.com (http://www.owwm.com) and start doing some research. You'll find articles on buying old machines, and manuals for that saw.

Before you go, ask whether the motor is single or 3-phase. No answer is a showstopper but a 5 HP 3-phase motor's going to take some bucks to replace or get running on household current.

I wouldn't worry about testing arbor runout. You should assume the bearings are shot, along with the belts. What's really important is that all the parts are there, and there are no cracks or breaks in anything that would be difficult or costly to obtain (castings, raise/lower gears, etc.). Build an estimate in your head for what you will pay for bearings, belts, and repairs. Be realistic: are you going to dive into the motor to fix that whiny bearing or take it to a shop? Remember that whatever you estimate onsite will be at least 50% too low, probably 100%. Once you've figured out what you need to spend, don't be afraid to offer less and explain why. Be prepared to walk away.

Could be a really nice saw if it works out!

Pete

[Kirk Poore]

The saw is from 1976. The first two digits of the serial number indicate the year. It looks like the motor is a replacement too, which probaby means it's single phase.

The saw probably will require some cleanup, including some cleaning of the raise and tilt mechanism and possibly new arbor bearings and belts. None of that is too expensive. If there is no broken castings, it's a pretty good price. I restored a Powermatic 65 with the same fence, and it's rock solid. My fine adjust knob is stripped out, but that's no big deal to me. The extra-wide top is a big bonus.

Follow what Jake said about measuring for defects. I wouldn't be too worried about small table warps.

Take wrenches to remove the top and possibly the motor for transport. I've moved mine by taking off the top and strapping the rest to a dolly, then just rolling it up a ramp into my van. I left it strapped to the dolly with the dolly blocked in place. No problem. That top will weight a couple hundred pounds by itself. Bring a friend or be prepared to disassemble it to move it.

There are manuals on OWWM.com.

Kirk

[Bill Klein]

Owning a PM66 for 20 years and having an additional 10 years experience in cabinet shops I can say you could only go wrong if there was a major problem with it such as - warped table, cracks in the cast iron etc. Bearings are fairly easy and inexpensive to replace. The motor may be an issue cost wise but again it's fairly easy to replace. If your worried about the fence rest assured there are plenty of aftermarket fences which are much, much better than the original. When all is said and done the model 66 PM is THE standard for cabinet style saws. So do your best research and wheeling and dealing, but even if you spend a bit more for this saw, as long as there is no serious problems with it I don't see how you could go wrong.