Retail Hardwood Rant

[Joe Jensen]

Sorry, I need to vent.

I usually buy my hardwoods and plywoods at a large lumber yard. The large yards (Spellman Hardwoods and American Hardwoods) have great quality for american hardwoods and plywoods, but they are 30 - 60 minutes away and only open for business hours. Unfortunately sometimes I need "just one more piece" to finish a project. There are a couple of "retail" wood stores in my area. One, Woodworkers Source, has tons of exotic hardwoods, and a good selection of plywoods. But, there are two huge issues in dealing with them.

1) The plywoods and american hardwoods are of very low quality. The wood isn't very dry, it's not straight, and there are lots of splits and cracks. Seriously, this stuff might be the material commercial shops return to their suppliers. I don't know where they get such bad material. The plywood warps badly within a day or two, must be wet as well.

2) Woodworkers Source rounds up when measuring the hardwood. Let me explain. When I buy 100 bd ft or more at one of the large hardwood yards. They take a "stick" (special ruler for measuring hardwood that has a table printed on it to show bd ft by width and length). They find the narrowest part of the board, and measure the width there. Then they take the nominal lenth, and use the scale on the "stick" to find the bd ft. By nominal length, I mean say a board is supposed to be 8 ft long. Usually it's cut a little long at the mill, maybe 100" instead of 96", but the large hardood yards call it 8 ft. Woodworkers Source measures the widest part of the board, and rounds up to the next highest 1/4", and then they measure the length at the longest part of the board and round up to the next highest 1/4". Since the quality is so low the ends are usually split for the first 3-4" in on each end. Their lumber is not S4S, so the sides are rough, not straight, and there are usually splits there too. On top of all this, they charge 50-70% more per bd ft than the large yards. If the wood were top quality stuff, paying a huge markup and the 5% or so extra for their rounding up would be ok.

I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for new woodworkers who don't know better.

I recently found a small private hardwood yard about 20 minutes away. really nice guy, really nice stock, and his prices are the same as the big yards. This place is Chandler Hardwoods near the Chandler Airport in Chandler AZ. Highly recommended. I just bough two pieces of maple from them. By my measuring, it should have been about 21 bd ft. They charges me for 18. If I measured the way Woodworkers Source does, it would have been 25 bd ft. The price per bd ft was less than 1/2 of what Woodworkers Source charges.

If you are buying at Woodworkers Source, take a drive over to this other yard and see what you have been missing.

[Robert Waddell]

Joe,
I totally understand your rant. I had to fire off a letter to one of my suppliers the other day. I ordered Maple, Cherry and Walnut. Truck showed up with Maple and Cherry but no Walnut. The walnut was back ordered. The bill was for almost 1.5x what I ordered on the maple. The cherry was a few bdft short. I accepted it cause I can always use more maple. They also charged me sales tax eventhough I have a tax exempt account. I called them and they said they wouldn't charge the tax when they ran the card. Last time I checked the cc they had charged me the tax and hadn't issued a credit. Well if all this wasn't bad enough, I decided to check the tally on the maple and cherry. Well the maple was short 19% and the cherry was short 14%. So the letter was to inform them that this was not acceptable. If I should get audited with these numbers added to my normal wood waste, flags would fly. My letter went out about two weeks ago, do you think I have heard from them? No! Can you say "new supplier".
Rob

[Alan Greene]

Joe,
I now buy the majority of my lumber at Chandler Hardwoods. I can second your opinion on their quality and price. Their customer service is also great. The fact that it is only 10 minutes from the house helps a lot too.

Joe, not to hijack your thread, are you a member of the Arizona Association of Fine Woodworkers? They are a great group of woodworkers here in the Phoenix area. If you want more info, or their website PM me.

[Paul Wingert]

2) Woodworkers Source rounds up when measuring the hardwood. Let me explain. When I buy 100 bd ft or more at one of the large hardwood yards. .

I went to one place that multiplied the total board foot by something like 10-20% to account for "kiln shrinkage". LOL. I only needed two pieces, so I just paid and never went back.

I really like deceptive tactics like that. If they want to charge 10-20% more per board foot, they should just up their price accordingly so that the customer knows what they are paying for.

[Paul Zonneveld]

I know I for one really appreciate the information. I have purchased some lumber at woodworkers source in the past and as you said Joe at the time I just did not know any better. I have several projects on the books for the beginning of this year and will be looking at Chandler Hardwoods. I have also heard about Timber woodworking and Machinery in Mesa. Anyone in Phoenix know much about them? I have been there before, but have not purchased any lumber there yet. I had planned on going there, but will now look into Chandler.

Thanks for the Info

[Joe Jensen]

I have also heard about Timber woodworking and Machinery in Mesa. Anyone in Phoenix know much about them? I have been there before, but have not purchased any lumber there yet. I had planned on going there, but will now look into Chandler.

Thanks for the Info

I've used Timber as well. I bought enough red oak a couple of years ago from them to build 56 kitchen cabinet doors. The quality at that time was better than I could find a the large commercial yards. You can sort through the pile to pick what you want, and the pricing is competitive, but the quality and inventory are hit or miss. From now on, I'll start at Chandler Hardwoods, and go elsewhere when I can find what I need from them...joe

[glenn bradley]

I hope someone will clarify if I have been told wrong. If 4/4 lumber has bee surfaced-one-side, it will be under 4/4 and sold as 4/4. Have I been misinformed?

Joe, this may be the deal at the yard you're going to. Even given that I would think the extra time to pick-through and fool around with folks that run their business as you describe would cover the run to your known source. Except for the hours of operation of course; my local yards are a short day Staurday and no Sunday - PITA.

P.s. My signiture is not directed at you, it's just a Joe Walsh quote I find amusing.

[Paul Canaris]

A recent supplier I tried in Austin, TX meaures the widest end of the board and calculates from there. They all just seem to do what they want to. Your are doing the right thing, vote with your pocket book and give your business to someone who cares enough to earn it.

[Tom Jones III]

Both suppliers I use are good, at Clarks Hardwood I load the lumber into my truck then get someone to measure it and write up a ticket. I always simply select the lumber and put it into the truck without trying to stack small ends/big ends, just randomly stack it in the truck. They always come out and measure all the ends sticking out over the tailgate and write the ticket. On several occasions, to test them, I have carefully measured each board taking quite a bit of time to accurately measure board feet before they wrote the ticket. Every time they were close to my calculation but they were always a little lower than what I considered to be a strict and fair measurement. BTW, they never knew I did the measurements beforehand.

Houston Hardwoods is exactly the same except you load the wood onto a cart where it is measured, you pay, then load it into your truck. Every time I have tested them they came out a little under what I considered correct.

[Jim King]

As I make a living selling lumber I can add a bit here.

Professional lumber buyers measure from the narrowest part of the board and not the widest and the same goes for logs . Same goes for thickness. Also if a crack is short they measure from where the crack stops and if the crack is long they recut to a narrower size.

As for the 4/4 question I produce lumber especially for hobby guys like many of you and the measurement I use is actual. This market is for actual size kiln dried , S4S and cut to width.

(Non comercial -hobby wood) dimensions are for example for a 1 x 4 x 96 inch board exactly that and if it was a kiln dried comercial 1 x 4 x 96 it would actually be 3/4 x 3 1/2 by 96 inches.

The statement about kiln loss does not fly as the lumber is sawn by the mill to adjust to the shrinkage and provide a dry full rough 4/4 or whatever dimension it is to be sold at.

Hope I helped and didnt make it more confusing.

[Dave Lehnert]

File a complaint with the department of weights and measures. I run a retail garden center and sell the little bundles of fire wood and they check to make sure each bundle has exactly the amount that is stated on the tag. I would think rounding up would not be allowed. The deli at the store can’t round up lunch meat to the next pound. Why would lumber be any different?

[James Carmichael]

The statement about kiln loss does not fly as the lumber is sawn by the mill to adjust to the shrinkage and provide a dry full rough 4/4 or whatever dimension it is to be sold at.
.

With the exception of some rough 4/4 birch I bought last year from Austin Hardwoods, I have yet to see rough 4/4 lumber that was actually 1" thick, it's usually around 15/16". Rough 8/4 stock I find around here is usually 2 - 2 1/8" thick.

I buy most of my wood from Austin or Hogan Hardwoods here in N. TX. I can't remember how Austin measures BF, but I've never agreed with their measurements, they always seem to come out on the pudgy side. But their prices and selection are great, so I live with it.

I thought USDA had a standard for measuring BF?. It's like buying gas and every station has a different "gallon".

[Jake Helmboldt]

I've got the same problem with a local supplier in Richmond, VA (the only game in town other than Woodcraft). They charge full bd/ft prices for cutoff scraps and even round up then. I got a 16" piece of 6/4 walnut from their cutoff bin and when I looked at my receipt he had charged me for 2 bd ft. Add to that their prices are exorbinant. They charge ~$12/BF for poorly figured 4/4 birdseye maple and almost $6/BF for plain 4/4 maple.

I'll now be driving the 60 minutes to a place that has much better pricing and saving money in the long run. I just won't be able to stop and get something on a whim anymore.

JH

[Joe Jensen]

I hope someone will clarify if I have been told wrong. If 4/4 lumber has bee surfaced-one-side, it will be under 4/4 and sold as 4/4. Have I been misinformed?

Joe, this may be the deal at the yard you're going to. Even given that I would think the extra time to pick-through and fool around with folks that run their business as you describe would cover the run to your known source. Except for the hours of operation of course; my local yards are a short day Staurday and no Sunday - PITA.

P.s. My signiture is not directed at you, it's just a Joe Walsh quote I find amusing.

Glen, I hadn't been commenting at all on thickness. 4/4 to my understanding means it was cut wet at 1". Likely slightly smaller when dry, but usually at least 15/16" when I buy. If the wood is surfaced to 3/4", all places I've purchased from charge for 4/4 for anything under 4/4". But, I've never seen rough cut wood under 4/4", that might be different...joe

[jim gossage]

i shop at atlanta hardwoods from time to time. the first time i shopped there i noticed that i was charged a bit more than i had calculate for many pieces. then i noticed that the price guide said "add back into BF calculation 7% for kiln shrinkage and 11% if material has been straight line ripped". seems like a stupid way to do it but the prices and board quality are otherwise pretty good.

[Jim King]

As I said I work with wood and to me I must sell what there is and not what there was. If I was a butcher I would not sell a pound of hamburger and add a surcharge for the horns and whatever parts did not make it to hamburger. Each grade has its price and no extra baloney.

Attached is a chart of wood reduction from cants thru drying etc. etc. for 1/4 inch lumber that ends up being sold as 1/4 inch actual. It is the only size I have in English but you can get the idea of how wood reduces from cants from the field to wrapped hobby wood delivered to the customer. It may take a minete to figure it out as I made it for my own use never thinking of any thread like this.

On 1/4 and 1/2 inch a minimum of 75% loss is normal. The object of this is to show that sizes can be actual and to show what it takes to get there. Hope it is informative.

[Keith Beck]

I've got the same problem with a local supplier in Richmond, VA (the only game in town other than Woodcraft). They charge full bd/ft prices for cutoff scraps and even round up then. I got a 16" piece of 6/4 walnut from their cutoff bin and when I looked at my receipt he had charged me for 2 bd ft. Add to that their prices are exorbinant. They charge ~$12/BF for poorly figured 4/4 birdseye maple and almost $6/BF for plain 4/4 maple.

I'll now be driving the 60 minutes to a place that has much better pricing and saving money in the long run. I just won't be able to stop and get something on a whim anymore.

JH

Jake,

As I live not too far down I-64 from you in Virginia Beach, where is the new supplier you're going to be going to. Is it south of you (i.e., closer to me)?

Keith

[Jude Tuliszewski]

I to think there should be some standard, and to me more importantly, list it for what it is. If it is ¾ x 3½ don’t call it a 1x4 and so on. The big boxes are the worst. Often there finished dimensions are way off. I picked up some 1x4 stock and the dimensions where all over the place, no consistence. What should have saved me some time cost me more time because of having to go through check all the dimensions to find the smallest point and resize the wood. I would have been better off getting rough stock and dimensioning it my self. Don’t get me started on plywood; even the good stuff from a supplier is normally under sized. Adjusting calculations for the 1/16 less is a big PITA on large projects. Go look at lumber used to make houses 40-50 years ago, a 2x4 is 2x4 not this 3 ½ x 1 ½(or less) stuff. I for one am part of the problem; I have not complained to managers, or written any letters to corporate offices, and as someone mentioned Weights and Standards. If most of us did, it should get things changed.

[Tom Sontag]

Rules and standards are different for hardwoods and construction-type softwoods. Selling a 1.5 x 3.5 and calling it a 2x4 is legal. The OP was about hardwoods.

[Lee DeRaud]

P.s. My signiture is not directed at you, it's just a Joe Walsh quote I find amusing.
__________________
Put down the wheelbarrow Joe . . .
you don't know nuthin 'bout machinery.

- Joe WalshFor what it's worth, Brother Dave Gardner used that line back when Joe Walsh was in diapers. :p :cool:

[Mike Parzych]

It's been my experience that the "woodworkers supply" places - in my area, Rockler and Woodcraft - should only be used to buy specialty tooling items from. They clearly rae in the "lumber" business as a viable source. I was at the local Woodcraft for the first time last weekend and was appaled at the quality of the hardwood. Rockler has better looking stock except for the fact they buy steamed walnut and cherry and it looks just awful.

A good lumber yard is a woodworkers best friend.

[Jake Helmboldt]

Jake,

As I live not too far down I-64 from you in Virginia Beach, where is the new supplier you're going to be going to. Is it south of you (i.e., closer to me)?

Keith

No such luck Keith. Northland Forest Products have a location in Manassas and one in Troy, near Charlottesville. I stopped by the Troy location and they have a lot of wood, good prices, and some nice, friendly people.

There is a place in the Ghent section of Norfolk (I forget their name) that has some nice wood, but the prices were on the high side if I recall. They have Ipe decking at a good price that I am thinking about buying if we ever get around to putting up a new deck.

Jake

[Jude Tuliszewski]

"Rules and standards are different for hardwoods and construction-type softwoods. Selling a 1.5 x 3.5 and calling it a 2x4 is legal. The OP was about hardwoods."

Hardwood, softwood, construction or other wise, deception is still deception. The worst contractor can legally put a lien on a house even though the contractor does crap and or incomplete work, and doesn’t get fully paid, it is legal, but that doesn’t make it right. Do coffee companies still get to say they are selling a full pound of coffee but only filling the can with 12 oz…some beer co. have only 20 beers in a case but can they still say a case is 24...no, so why should lumber, any lumber, be any different.

[Corvin Alstot]

Both suppliers I use are good, Clarks Hardwood . . .
Houston Hardwoods is exactly the same. Tom/
These are the only two suppliers I know in Houston with
great quality and selection, are there any others?

[Rennie Heuer]

After reading some of the horror stories :eek: about buying hardwoods in different areas I have to consider myself rather lucky. Although we have a Woodcraft in our area I rarely by wood in any quantity from them - tools and supplies, yes, wood, no. Quality is marginal, quantity limited, and the prices are a bit steep. No problem when I just need some for a small project or to 'finish up' another, but prohibitive for larger purchases.

I'm fortunate to have a dealer about 20 miles from me (High Desert Hardwoods, Eagle, ID) that has a great selection, allows me to climb around looking for just the right board, and has prices that are reasonable if not great. It's run by an accomplished woodworker and he is always available to swap tales and give advice.

Counting my blessings in Idaho.............:)

[Tom Jones III]

Tom/
These are the only two suppliers I know in Houston with
great quality and selection, are there any others?

Mason's Mill & Lumber Co Web Site (http://yp.yahoo.com/rd?tuid=7941069&t=web&stx=&ck=841295769&u=http%3a//WWW.MASONSMILLANDLUMBER.COM)
Address: 9885 Tanner Rd, Houston, TX 77041 Phone:(713) 462-6975
This is the only other one I know of but it is a long way from where I live so I have never been there. The Cutting Edge (BW8 & 59) will place an order for you from that lumber yard and you can pick it up from The Cutting Edge. However, you are getting random selected lumber and the price is between Houston Hardwoods and Clarks.

[Dennis Peacock]

While calculating board feet at a busy lumber yard can be confusing, here's two ways I've seen it done:

The formulas are as follows:
Thickness (in inches) x Depth (in inches) x Length (in feet) / 12
or
Thickness (in inches) x Depth (in inches) x Length (in inches) / 12

2 x 6 x 10' = 10 board feet.
((2 x 6)x10)/12 = 10

2 x 6 x 10' = 10 board feet.
((2 x 6)x120")/12 = 10

One of my suppliers uses the 1st formula. My other supplier uses the 2nd formula and also states that the 1st formula is wrong. HA!!! Go figure.

It is normal for a lumber supplier to measure a board at it's most narrow point and calculate a 98" long board at the 96" price. 4/4 lumber is anything between 7/8" and 1-1/8" thick lumber. At least that's what the call it at the retail stores. My rough lumber suppliers, it is usually a full 4/4 or just over a bit.

IMHO, if you are getting charged at the widest point of a board that will become nothing but waste? You are getting took. JMHO on the subject. ;)

[Thomas Williams]

The formulas are as follows:
Thickness (in inches) x Depth (in inches) x Length (in feet) / 12
or
Thickness (in inches) x Depth (in inches) x Length (in inches) / 12

2 x 6 x 10' = 10 board feet.
((2 x 6)x10)/12 = 10

2 x 6 x 10' = 10 board feet.
((2 x 6)x120")/12 = 10
I thought that if you use inches for the length, then you divide by 144. In the second example the result would be 120. No wonder your second supplier prefers it.

Since board feet is a volume measurement, why is the price of 8/4 stock substanitally more than 4/4 stock?

[Chris Padilla]

Maybe they should sell wood by real volume! Dunk the board in some water, see how much the water level rises, bingo! You'll get the exact volume! No narrow spot vs. wide spot garbage. :)

What do you think? Am I genius or what?! :p

[Tom Jones III]

Since board feet is a volume measurement, why is the price of 8/4 stock substanitally more than 4/4 stock?

Probably scarcity. When is the last time you saw 16/4 walnut free of cracks? If you had a nice slab and nobody else did, wouldn't you charge more for it? Same goes for abnormally long or wide pieces.

I really like Houston Hardwoods b/c they will fax you a complete price sheet that fully explains all of the pricing, the price sheets are also on the desk in the office free for the taking. For example (going from memory) they list the price for each species and thickness, sometimes there will be a footnote like +10% for width greater than 10" or "subtract 5% for orders over 100 bf". They also give the price difference for randomly selected wood versus wood you cherry pick yourself.

[James Carmichael]

Tom/
These are the only two suppliers I know in Houston with
great quality and selection, are there any others?

There should be Hogan Hardwoods down there, too.

Try this, I used it to find a couple of good sawmills reasonably closeby:

http://www.woodweb.com/Resources/RSSDGsawyers.html

[James Carmichael]

I thought that if you use inches for the length, then you divide by 144. In the second example the result would be 120. No wonder your second supplier prefers it.

Since board feet is a volume measurement, why is the price of 8/4 stock substanitally more than 4/4 stock?

Thomas,

He divides by 12 two times in the second formula. The formulas are six to one, half-dozen to the other, they both yield the same BF value.

I presume 8/4 costs more because 1) it's harder to find logs that will yield good, clear 8/4 boards, but more importantly 2) it takes 2x as long to dry. Next to transportation, kiln-drying is probably the most expensive piece of the process.

[Thomas Williams]

"Thickness (in inches) x Depth (in inches) x Length (in inches) / 12"

He divides by 12 two times in the second formula.

I guess I missed the second division by 12?

[Tom Sontag]

I believe the proper way to scale a bunch of wood is to arrive at the surface area (in square inches) and multiply by the thickness (4/4 being 1, 6/4 = 1.5 etc.) and then divide by 144. This I learned from Dr. Wengert at Woodweb; he would know.

The water dunking method (I realize was a joke, but) would not work because it would overvalue rough sawn lumber cut 1 3/16" thick, which is only 4/4, and undervalue a S2S 13/16" board, which is also 4/4.

Sometimes thicker lumber is significantly more difficult to dry than 4/4. I am not just talking about time. For example, oak is highly prone to honeycombing. Still, I personally think charging more per bf for 8/4 walnut versus 4/4 is a tad disingenious. If people ONLY demanded 8/4, then it would make sense since it takes a quality log to yield all FAS 8/4 whereas you can squeeze a few FAS 4/4 from a lower grade log.

[David Rose]

Nope! I won't buy your wood, Chris. I foresee your plan. You plan to "dunk it in the water for a week (to make sure the cracks are filled OF COURSE), then charge me by the pound for dry wood!" You didn't fool this fool! Errr well... :D :eek: :o

David


Maybe they should sell wood by real volume! Dunk the board in some water, see how much the water level rises, bingo! You'll get the exact volume! No narrow spot vs. wide spot garbage. :)

What do you think? Am I genius or what?! :p

[David Rose]

My local mill calls anything in S2S 5/8" or thicker 4/4. The owner usually rounds to the next board foot of the total. He doesn't measure anything. I once bought about 100 bf from him measuring as I went. He was not close enough to know what I measured. I needed about 90 bf plus waste. I was cutting it close trying to hit 100. He eyeballed it for about 30 seconds and said "101 bf". I got it home and measured carefully 100 and 1/4 bf! I've done that many times with the same results.

On the other hand, he will let me dig for some time through his stacks to get what I want and cull what I don't. If I find an S2S board that is 1 1/8" thick, it still counts as "4/4". That is rare, but there sometimes. If I find an exceptional piece, it is still the "standard price". That is rare too, but can be found... He also charges $1.50 a bf on most shorts (4' or under) and $3.50 on 8' lengths which are slightly longer.

For walnut and maple and cherry and my choice, I figure the low price per bf offsets his "slight" rounding up.

David

[Brett Baldwin]

It seems like all of the good lumberyards are out on the east side here in the valley. Here in north Phoenix, Woodworkers Source is the best choice I know of. There is a newer shop on Thomas that is geared toward professionals though he was certainly willing to stop and chat for a bit with me. Unfortunately he is open weekdays only, or was last time I knew. I'll have to get down to Chandler Hardwood sometime to see what it's like.

[Joe Jensen]

It seems like all of the good lumberyards are out on the east side here in the valley. Here in north Phoenix, Woodworkers Source is the best choice I know of. There is a newer shop on Thomas that is geared toward professionals though he was certainly willing to stop and chat for a bit with me. Unfortunately he is open weekdays only, or was last time I knew. I'll have to get down to Chandler Hardwood sometime to see what it's like.

Brett, can you share the name of the shop in N Phoenix?...joe