How close to a Cheerio...

[Phil Thien]

How close to a Cheerio can you get your dust collector/vac hose before it gets sucked into the hose?

I use a Shop-Vac (actual Shop-Vac brand) and have often wondered how much better a dust collector would work. My tools have 2.25" and smaller dust extraction ports, which certainly complicates matters.

Some experts tell me 2.25" is too small for a dust collector, that a shop vac will work better. Others call BS on that and say the dust collector will KILL the shop vac, even on a 2.25" port.

Add to the mix the fact that I'm using an actual Shop-Vac brand vac, and the Feins and Festools are supposed to work much better.

So I've dreamed-up a little test I call the Cheerio test. I marked-off a scrap in inches and placed a Cheerio on the scrap. Then I moved the hose from my vac towards the Cheerio to determine how close I could get before the Cheerio would vannish.

The closest I could get was approx. 1.75" with a 2.25" hose. I was able to get to approx. 1.25" with a 1" hose (for my PC ROS).

Would any users here like to duplicate the tests so I can figure out, once and for all, how these different units stack up for smaller extraction ports? I'd be interested in hearing from people that have different shop vacs (Fein, Festool, PC, Rigid) and small to medium-size dust collectors.

For the sake of quack-science, I wouldn't mind hearing from people that have big dust collectors/cyclones, too. I think the results may be interesting for any users interested in dust collection.

If you have time, post back with: (1) Brand/model of dust collector or shop vac, (2) Size of hose tested, (3) How close to Cheerio you could get.

In #2 above, my immediate question is in regards to 2.25" ports. So if you have 4" hose please try a 2.25" reducer (if you have it). Again, I would like to hear the values for with and without the reducer, but it will be hard to make comparisons with what I've already got w/o you using that reducer.

[Kevin Blunt]

Strangely enough, on my rigid Spindle sander which has a 2.5" dust port my craftsman shop vac works better than my full size dust collector. Maybe someone can explain this. It must have something to do with CFM's.

[Pete Brown]

Strangely enough, on my rigid Spindle sander which has a 2.5" dust port my craftsman shop vac works better than my full size dust collector. Maybe someone can explain this. It must have something to do with CFM's.

See the thread from last week (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50871) where I asked if you could use a regular dust collector with Festool tools.

The cheerio test will be interesting, but it won't really settle any questions about volume and similar.

Pete

[Andy Hoyt]

In the interest of proper specerfactions and accurate quantifiable results, I would like to know if the Cheerios should be the plain old regular kind, Apple Cinnamon, generic issue, or other.

[Mike Cutler]

In the interest of proper specerfactions and accurate quantifiable results, I would like to know if the Cheerios should be the plain old regular kind, Apple Cinnamon, generic issue, or other.

Thank you for that. I needed it. Reality, what a concept.:D :D :D

Phil.
After my postings on the bandsaw tension gauge thread, I love this test... I gotta go get a couple boxes of Cheerios. I'm doin' choclate Cheerios.:cool: :cool:

[Ron Brese]

This is freaking hilarious. I must go out and buy cheerios now.

I think you will find that the shop vacs will win when it comes to sucking up one Cheerio at a time. They typically move air faster than dust collectors. However the dust collector can suck up the whole box of cheerios in an instant (Whoosh!!!) and this would clog up the shop vac.

Ron

[scott spencer]

In the interest of proper specerfactions and accurate quantifiable results, I would like to know if the Cheerios should be the plain old regular kind, Apple Cinnamon, generic issue, or other.

"unused" are best regardless of flavor... :D

[Phil Thien]

This is freaking hilarious. I must go out and buy cheerios now.

I think you will find that the shop vacs will win when it comes to sucking up one Cheerio at a time. They typically move air faster than dust collectors. However the dust collector can suck up the whole box of cheerios in an instant (Whoosh!!!) and this would clog up the shop vac.

Ron

I donno, Ron. My theory is that the DC's will beat the vacs even on the single Cheerio distance challenge.

I've never owned a DC. But at one of the woodworking shows, I was impressed with the volume of air one of them was moving. I suspect it coulda grabbed a Cheerio from several inches away.

But again, that was at least a 4" port.

P.S. And whether the DC can suck-up the entire box of Cheerios in a single gulp is immaterial. I never cut more than one Cheerio on my TS at a time. :)

[Gary Herrmann]

Phil, can you post a pic of the push stick you use for cutting cheerios? I assume a thin kerf blade. What is the tooth count you recommend?

Is this test for dry or milked cheerios? If milked, what is the submersion duration?

And are we also testing those snack containers that look like Cheerios? My son has two, but I don't know if he'll give them up. I assume they'd also need a larger push stick?

I'm also curious about cheerio glueups. Which glue do you use and what about clamps?

What sort of resaw height would you folks would recommend to cut said glueup. I've been thinking about getting a dedicated cheerio bandsaw.

[Joe Chritz]

Well I couldn't resist.....

With an Oneida Super Dust Gorilla and about20 foot of ridgid pipe and 3 foot of 4" flex hose it was 3 3/4 inches.

Add a 4" to 2.25" adapter and it dropped to 2 7/8 inches.

Add 7 foot of shop vac hose (2.25") it dropped to 2 inches.

I haven't measure the pipe run but it is around 20 feet with 2 90 degree bends and I think most is 6" pipe.

I figured if I didn't try I would be thinking about it all night.

Joe

[Ben Grunow]

First time running my DC (gorilla cyclone) it sucked 3 pencils and my safety glasses off the work bench into 4" flex. Cant remember how far though.

[Per Swenson]

Hey....Anybody seen the cat?


I don't know about Cheerios, I'm a raisin bran man.

But let me tell you about lit cigarettes and my shaper.

In hind sight if it wasn't so serious, it would be down right hysterical.

Per

[Randall Frey]

Cheerios are also a good way to test bandsaw blade tension. Take one of these beauties hold it against the side of the blade between your index finger and thumb pull against the blade and let her go. If it flicks off of the table, tighten it up. Sorry, I know your method has merit but it just sounds funny

[Cary Falk]

I have the same problem. I am still trying to get used to my jet 1100 I got off of cragi's list a couple of weeks ago. I like to clamp a hose to the top of the workbench to catch router chips. Todays casuality was a 25' tape measure from at least 4" away. :mad: :D I don't a cherrio stands a chance.

[Andy Howard]

I have some fruit loop data if that is of any interest?

:)

Andy

[Mike Cutler]

Hey....Anybody seen the cat?


I don't know about Cheerios, I'm a raisin bran man.

But let me tell you about lit cigarettes and my shaper.

In hind sight if it wasn't so serious, it would be down right hysterical.

Per

Ya' can't tell me you didn't laugh about that one after a few beers at the end of the day.

[Wayne Gauthier]

I have to get my cheerio to about 1" from my 1" port of my mouth before I can get it sucked up... :D

[Robert Mahon]

Andy,
Right at your post the discussion started going South.
This is a serious topic that I think deserves merit.

My experimentation did not include Cheerios but I can tell you the experimentation I've done came pretty close to causing my wife to divorce me.

[Phil Thien]

Well I couldn't resist.....

I figured if I didn't try I would be thinking about it all night.

Joe

Wow, thanks for the data Joe. I know a lot of guys are poking fun at this test. And again, I admit it is quack science. But I hope people are keeping an open mind because there is valuable information in your post.

It would be interesting if someone with a more conventional (and smaller) DC would post.

So far, from your results, I'd say a big cyclone would greatly benefit my efforts, especially if I was able to use the reducer right at the back of the saw (don't see why not).

Of course, there is the entire issue of whether I would bother keeping my little saw if I was gonna put a big cyclone in. But I still think the data is interesting.

[Per Swenson]

Okay okay,

I wasn't going to admit to this, well I kinda beat around the bush...

My empirical data proves that when you put a lit unfiltered cigarette

down on the shaper table while spinning a freeborn raised panel bit,

it will suck that sucka 16.5 inches across the table faster then you can

reach for that second drag. Now we also use one of those garbage can style

separators, thankfully. But is was some time before we smelled smoke.

Of course I blamed the cat.

Anyway, I figure the cig has more mass then a cheerio, so

this might skew the data somewhat.

Whaddayamean cats don't smoke?

Mine has 6 toes, can open doors so one of em must be a thumb.

Per

[Phil Thien]

it will suck that sucka 16.5 inches across the table faster then you can

I never knew smoking could be this exciting!

[Ben Grunow]

I guess you never heard of Bill Clinton (sorry Mods couldnt resist).

[Phil Thien]

I guess you never heard of Bill Clinton (sorry Mods couldnt resist).

I said exciting, not stimulating.

[Gary Herrmann]

Of course I blamed the cat.

Anyway, I figure the cig has more mass then a cheerio, so

this might skew the data somewhat.

Whaddayamean cats don't smoke?

Mine has 6 toes, can open doors so one of em must be a thumb.

Per

Sounds like a Maine Coon. I swear, mine is going to figure out how to turn the deadbolt to the porch any minute now.

[Per Swenson]

Nope Gary,

He is a rare breed of Denville Drawer Cat.

He was born in this very shop.

Sorry I am not trying to Hijack this thread, cute pictures will do that....

But..... Notice the grain on that drawer?

Per

[Mike Waddell]

Phil -

I hadn't had Cheerios in a while, so I went and got some for the test. After I ate three bowls full, I felt ready to take on your Cheerio sucking challenge.

With a 3hp Oneida, 8 feet of 8" rigid pipe, 12ft of rigid 6" pipe, 10 ft of 4" rigid pipe, one "Y" connector and a three foot length of flexible 4" tubing: 4 1/8"

Swap the three foot length of 4" tubing for a 12' length: 3 1/4"

Remove the 4" flexible tubing, add a 4" to 2 1/2" reducer and four feet of 2 1/2" flex tubing: 2 3/8"

All of these tests were done on a graduated wooden board similar to the one in your pictures. When I swapped the board for a piece of UHMD, I saw an increase of at least 1/4", most times closer to 1/2" of extra distance.

What does all this say? According to my wife, I do REALLY stupid things when I eat Cheerios.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tom Jones III]

Not a cheerio test, but LOML is starting to do more work in the shop. Yesterday she mentioned that she was sanding, while I was at work, with the Gorilla hooked up to a 2.5" hose connected to the ROS. She disconnected the ROS and laid the hose down on the workbench where it promptly sucked a full sheet of paper towel through 4' of 2.5" hose, 4' of 4" ducting then 15' of 6" pipe and dropped it into the barrel.

[Al Willits]

Got bored and thought I'd try it with the Shebeasts vacuums, got them both out (she was gone btw) and got the Cheerios out, put a cheerio down went to turn the vac on and the dog ate the cheerio, this went on for a bit longer than I'll admit, finally gave up and had a bowl of Cheerios while the dog finished off the last few on the floor.

Me thinks I'll try it in the shop with out the dog next time.
Does look like a decent non scientific method of testing though, anyone weighed them to see consistent they are??

Al...who thinks he needs to reinforce the sit/stay command :D

[Luke McFadden]

I used my 14g/5.5hp Shop-Vac (newly aquired from Lowes for 40% off). It has a 10' 2.25" hose. It would only do about 2" away from a cheerio.

Somewhat depressing, but it picks up wood shavings just fine for me with no clogs.

L