Full-Color Laser Engraving

[Ed Albrite]

It's finally here. Full-Color laser engraving from Atomic Art is now available
to the public.3-day training sessions at their Las Vegas facility begin in March.On-site training will be available starting in May. Prices start at
$5495.00 (well worth it).Currently the process is available for GCC, Trotec, Laser Pro, Universal & Vytek. Other lasers to be added in the near future. Check out the beautiful examples at www.atomicartimages.com (http://www.atomicartimages.com)
When contacting Atomic Art, type the inatials "SMC" in the subject block.This will insure you special consideration on pricing & training.
Good luck & keep on burning.

[Luke Phillips]

Ed - what have you learned about the process so far? I've heard that this is merely a training program on how to use Thermark color and layering the engraving using the laser. Can you provide any additional info?

[Ed Albrite]

Atomic Art is a patent protected process of applying a reformulated Thermark product. This process allows the colors to be blended to create the full-color spectrum. I have been involved in the laser industry for over 5 years and to the best of my knowledge Atomic Art is the only company
involved in such an undertaking. The process requires no additional equipment for your laser, just knowledge.The door to the next generation
of laser engraving has been opened. all we have to do is walk through.
Iwill be visiting Atomic Art later this month and will post updates.Please
feel free to email Tom with any questions. www.atomicartimages.com (http://www.atomicartimages.com)

[Bruce Boone]

Ed, I am interested in getting colors other than black on metals. Will this process or something similar lend itself to metals?

[Kim Vellore]

It looks very interesting but not clear. Also why is it Laser Company specific?
Kim

[Brent Vander Weil]

Looks like an awsome process... I await more info... Since I am just going out on my own in laser work this seems like it might be a very nice thing to have.

[Dave Fifield]

Why is it specific to laser brand? I don't get that.....

With an almost complete lack of techincal detail, the whole thing looks and sounds a bit scammy to me. I bet if we wait a short while, someone will blow the lid on this.

Edit: I didn't see your reply before Kim, sorry - "great minds think alike" (or is it "fools never differ"?)!

[Ed Albrite]

The process has been perfected on most substrates. Unfortunatly not on
metal or wood. (not yet !) The process needs to be tested on each makers machine. Tom has not been able to get access to certain brands. If anyone has an Epilog laser in the Las Vegas area please contact Tom ASAP. At
www.atomicatrimages.com (http://www.atomicatrimages.com)

[Ed Albrite]

I beg to differ it is not scammy and I resent the comment. I have seen & touched the product And have seen nothing else like it. I am sure that if you contact Tom he will gladly send you a sample to test. If I did not see the potential in this I would not waste your time nor mine.
Blowing the lid on a patent protected process does not sound safe or sane to me.

[Rodne Gold]

Can you give us moe details about what you get for $5500?
And some more info on the various patents , I would like to read the abstracts.

[Ed Albrite]

Rodne-
Please contact Tom Price For detailed info.www.atomicartimages.com
or PM me for his phone number.

[Tom Majewski]

I wonder if this is similar to firing ceramic glaze with the laser like I've been trying.

[Mark Mullis]

If you go to Ebay and search for laser engravers, (2/01/07) you will see a complete turn key package for sale, with an epilog laser. Oddly enough the company selling this is called "Light Wave Art" and they claim they pioneered the abilty to laser in color. The discription said that because of money troubles they are abandoning this business venture and are willing to sell all this knowledge in their package.

[Mike Null]

I've been following the news on this process for quite some time. I tend to think it works but there are good reasons to question them thoroughly. On another forum last month they were offering protected territories to the first 12 applicants for $4495. As I understood the post an applicant would be trained and licensed for a specific application. Glass or tile and ceramic not both.

One of the principals is the distributor for a laser machine company so to say they couldn't get an Epilog to test is inaccurate. It's possible that they may be charging laser companies a fee and Epilog may have decided not to join in.

That is speculation on my part.

From what I have read and seen on the web it looks like a teriffic product that has unlimited applications and other than the "franchise fee" I don't see why it wouldn't be in open distribution.

[Mike Mackenzie]

I have heard that this process is slow!!! one color at a time I have also heard that the material cost is expensive!!!. I also heard (don't you love rumors) that the person over at atomic art for some reason does not get along with Epilog thus not listing them as an available laser system for there process.

Who knows that person told this person and then they told someone else you know how it goes.

[Bruce Boone]

I would assume there's some kind of either film or spray-on stuff that is used for each of the 4 primary printing colors. The part would need to either hold still or be repositioned after cleaning off the excess material between firings if that were the case. I suppose that's not too hard with the right fixturing though.

I just saw a patent application where there is a color printed sheet that gets transferred onto a surface using a laser, but it needed cooking in an oven for it to cure. I would assume that it's a different process than the one described here.

I have to assume that the people applying for the patent know that applications are viewable by the public.

[Jim Good]

Mike,

Wasn't Trotec involved initially with Atomic Art? Do you know what happened? Sounds like they are going to play along but maybe not at the level originally thought.

Jim

[Greg Sloan]

Hi all,

Just went to the Thermark web site. Interesting photo gallery of pictures provided by atomic-art. Sounds like to me some people figured out the right amount of colors to mix together, or maybe applied one layer at a time and then lasered at different power and speed settings.

I to thought Trotex had a large involvement in the begining. I also thought there was going to be some sort of attachment or something that was laser specific, but from what I read today, nothing else to buy other than colored ink. What do you think? Not a scam, but pretty costly to people who are barely making the rent. Each color costs about $55.00 for 50grams, which is not that bad. However, the cost of the class is pretty high. I need more information about exclusive territory? If I purchase thermark and mix it myself and the guy down the street from me does the same, who cares. Maybe I am missing something here.

[Rodne Gold]

For the same money you can buy a machine like a Busjet that prints on ANYTHING up to 10cm thick and a3 size in full colour , some items need a ink receptive coating , some dont.
The Gallery seems to show pretty "gross" pictures , ie not photrealistic unless its just the way these were uploaded.
Personally I don't think printing full colour on solid substrates has huge applications , we have access to UV flatbeds and hardly get any real decent orders for this. We alos DID buy a busjet (a problematic machine) and the demand for its applications is limited.
I have a really good digital print and cut machine and producing overlaminated decals shaped and cut to size to be applied to substrates is very cheap and effective.
To be honest , I'm really sceptical of this process , especially since no one seems to be telling you what you get for the money and listing the patents involved. Caveat emptor.

[Kim Vellore]

Also they do not seem to understand the patent process. If you developed the technology and already applied for the patent there is nothing more to blow the lid off or something like that, in fact you should make it known in the open so if your technology is that good that people copy them you can sue them. Here the patent is who invented it first. At this point I am skeptical with so little information. Maybe the process is great but it takes 3 days of lasering to make one color image? Also why would anyone pay big $$ for a class without any more info. I think either it is bad marketing or off to a bad start.

Kim

[George M. Perzel]

Hi All;
I'm with Rodne on this one-sounds like one of those things that may be neat but is begging for a practical, economical application. Too many unanswered questions and severe lack of technical detail. The secrecy/patent shroud is often used to cover up the truth.
What is material cost/time required to produce a photographic portrait on a 12 x12 tile? Get me the answer to that and I'll tell you whether this will be successful. From what I've read, I am willing to bet that the overall cost of producing a viable product will drive it out of the buying range of the consumer market.
Intersting that the US Army is testing it- what are they doing, making permanent wanted posters of Bin Laden?

Best regards;
George
LaserArts

[Mike Null]

Jim:

I'm not aware of any laser company involvement but agree that Trotec was one of the machines they used early on.

I think we'll have answers in a couple of weeks as this process should debut at the ARA show in Las Vegas.

I, for one, would have no interest in buying a license at those prices that only gives me the right to buy the media but limits my prerogative to sell on the internet which is where most of my business comes from.

Not sure that's what the deal is but it's for somebody with deeper pockets than me.

[Dave Fifield]

Ed,

I'm sorry you didn't take the time to accurately read what I wrote before becoming resentful. To reiterate, I didn't say it was scammy, I said it "...looks and sounds a bit scammy to me". This was, and still is, my considered opinion. As such, it belongs to me and is not yours to resent.

Get-Rich-Quick-Schemes

Get-rich-quick-schemes generally have some if not all of the following generic hallmarks:

1. Limited licences/sales territories
2. Sense of urgency to get signed up
3. Special pricing for the first 'n' people to respond
4. High entry price with severly limited details about what you get
5. Promises that the real secret/s will be revealed after you sign up
6. No way to adequately test the company's claims prior to sign up
7. Special conferences or training sessions that must be attended
8. Vague, missing or incomplete technical details
9. Claims that a patent is applied for, but no patent application can be found on the USPTO website
10. Obvious questions not covered in the FAQ

By my count, the Atomic Art deal hits 8 out of 10 of these traits. Did I miss any?

Patents

From my professional work in the electronics industry, I know that nowadays you can apply for, and get, a patent on pretty much anything you care to write up, whether there is any prior art or not. The USPTO long ago gave up scrutinizing patents for "worthiness". They decided to let the courts decide retroactively. Saying you have a patent application for your new process/product/design is virtually meaningless these days.

I spent the time and did a quick patent search myself. I couldn't find any applications for Atomic Art at all. Perhaps you could enlighten us to the patent application reference number?

I did however find one patent application (#20050001419) that seems to completely cover the whole color lasering process (by almost any method!). To my reading of the claims therein, it fairly comprehensively covers the process as described by Atomic Art. There's another one (patent application #20030234292) by Digimark Corp. that also seems to fairly comprehensively cover all types of color transformation/mixing by exposure to laser beam. This patent application also has an extensive refernence list of other prior related patents. I couldn't be bothered to dig any deeper. In my opinion, there seems to be plenty of prior art for all kinds of color lasering processes.

More questions

a) What is your relationship to Atomic Art LLC?
b) What is your relationship to Thom and/or Terry?
c) Why doesn't Thom or Terry come on SMC and answer our questions?

Epilog

Until all my concerns are adequately addressed I will remain very skeptical. I am fully prepared to embrace this technology if it becomes available to all on a fair and equitable basis.

Regards,

[Rob Bosworth]

Ed, you started out your thread by sounding like a forum member that was just really excited by an opportunity. And it sounded like you were just letting everyone know about this opportunity. Reading a couple of your posts defending the opportunity, it sounds like you have some involvement with the company or process. Do you?

I do not read this forum to just run through a whole bunch of ads. And if this is the way we are going to get free advertizing, then I am going to start blowing my horn. I am sure that Mike McKenzie, Roy Brewer and many others that spend a tremendous amount of time offering solutions and assistance free of charge on the this forum and others, will probably just turn those responsibilities over to their marketing departments so this will be just another pop up ad space.

HEY EVERYBODY, YOU SHOULD BUY A USED REFURBISHED LASER ENGRAVER FROM ACCESS BUSINESS SOLUTIONS, INC. BECAUSE THEY ARE REALLY EXCITIED ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET YOU11111:D

[Bruce Boone]

I've already told them Rob. :) Good to see you here.

[Ed Albrite]

All of the roumers will shortly come to an end. Tom is joining The Creek today. He will answer your questions and dispell any myths. Keep your monitors tuned in and get your questions ready...

[Ed Albrite]

Tom is trying to join our discussion, but he can not log on yet.
If anyone can help expedite the process it would be greatly appreciated.
To answer your questions.
-I met Tom & Terri at a show I Vegas. I visited with them and saw their product but not
the process. This was 1 year ago .
- I am not currently on their payroll . But I do not what the future holds.
- I hope to be one of the first people to be trained.
- When I see hardworking creative people with a good product I like to promote them.

[Kim Vellore]

Well found more info Yahooing....

http://lasermarkingmaterials.blogspot.com/2006/03/ara-show-report.html

http://www.thermark.com/web-content/Thermark_Proc/can-do-4color.htm

Kim

[Keith Outten]

Ed,

If your looking for Tom Cowie his account was just approved.

[Mitchell Andrus]

It won't be long before someone reverse-engineers the process and makes a cheaper version - the Chinese if the profit potential still exists at $500.00. I'd look long and hard before spending $5,500.00 to "get on board" to a process that - so far - looks like it only emulates four color process printing.

If it's truely great, it'll show up in the Journals.

[Thom Price]

Hello to all,

I am Thom Price co-inventor of the process technology known as Atomic Art. I am going to try to answer the more serious minded questions and will ignore the obviously ignorant.

First of all we have not attempted to perform our process on metal at this time. Although we are having positive results with acrlyic.

Next we never at any time asked for or recieved any compensation from any laser manufacturers. We offered to enable all makes at no charge and the companies that responded are the ones that are currently able to produce color images.

We do not have any issues negative or otherwise with Epilog we have heard many good things about that brand of laser and assume that is true.

Our technolgy has taken thousands of man-hours to perfect and we did not want to release it until it satisfied our standards.

Lightwave has not stated that they are selling their technology. We encourage you to compare the products and make your own decision.

We are offering this training class because it will take most people 3 days to grasp and the training must be done at our facility. Everything you will need to be sucessful is there to make things efficient. Unless you have a large format laser, those will be scheduled for on site training.

There are 2 Licenses available: Stone & Tile is one License and Glass is another License.

The Patent issue will be determined at the Patent office and only by the Patent office.

We have offered the training for $4495 for the first twelve who sign up and that number has been reached. The current price is $5495 upon completing the questionnaire we send out the information in regards to the license, the training, and what we provide etc.

Ed has been kind enough to recommend this process. He has samples and is convinced this is a great opportunity for the serious minded proffessional engravers. It is what he has said THE REAL DEAL.

If it is slow, it is because of the limitations of the lasers not the technology. A full color spread 12"x12" takes around 80 minutes to complete.

We are very busy preparing for the ARA show and scheduling for the training classes and we hope this has answered the lucid questions. For more information feel free to contact us.

Thom, Terry & Jesse

[Ed Maloney]

Thom - Did you ever read any of the Dale Carnegie books? I think it may help.

[Bob Tate]

"and will ignore the obviously ignorant." Boy, that sure does not fit into the usual Sawmill Creek Philosophy. Now some of us, OR, our questions are obviously ignorant. You can keep your process. I can imagine what kind of Customer Service you must present.
Thanks,
Bob

[Mark Winlund]

I have been following this closely. It does sound like they were trying to generate revenue by selling "protected" sales areas... unfortunately, it also sounds like they are gearing up to sell the inks to anyone. (read the links carefully) It appears that what you are buying is the opportunity to attend a seminar on how to use the product. A training class. Period.

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

It probably is a duck!

Mark

[Dave Fifield]

Wow, Thom, thanks for coming on over to SMC, you really answered all the questions for me. Great job!!

I'm going to sign up ASAP....hope I'm one of the first 12....oh, wait, I'm not....$5495 it is then.

I have a large format laser - I think this means my training can be done at my place, right? Hope so, since I have a medical condition that prevents me from flying. When can you schedule me?

Can I have ALL of San Jose, CA, or just an area that has a population of 200,000? If so, can I pick the area?

I'll give you a shout to sort out the details shortly....(702)498-3250, right?

[Dave Fifield]

Mitchell, the light blue one or the dark blue one? :D

[Jim Good]

This forum is a place that good folks assemble to ask questions they need answered or to share their handiwork. The flavor of this forum is to have the freedom to ask any questions without fear of feeling "ignorant" or as if their question is not worth a response.

I have been participating a short while on this forum and have felt welcomed from the start. Asking an ignorant question doesn't bother me because I know I will get a respectful answer from the masses. Because of my respect for the participants of this forum I felt compelled to respond.

I hope that you will take a moment to reread your initial post and work a little harder on your post #2. You will be well-received here if you treat everyone with respect whether their question (in your mind) is serious or ignorant.

Jim Good

[Rodne Gold]

I also think that Thoms answers didnt do anything to reduce the level of scepticism here and the tone was not nice at all

I also think that 80 mins per sq ft will require selling prices of over $150 per sq ft

I also think that very few customers will pay this

I also think that there are far cheaper and better ways to acomplish colour on substrates and they arent that limited to what substrates

I also think you will have problems with substrates that arent white

I also think that you will have to spend a lot of money advertising an promoting the process

I also think that this process is totally unsuitable for production

I also think that spending $5500 can get you other machinery/processes etc that can increase your sales and profitability far more than this ever will.

Maybe I shouldnt think so much and just believe what anyone says.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I am going to try to answer the more serious minded questions and will ignore the obviously ignorant.

How about a seriously ignorant question? How is this different from the Stained Glass Overlay (SGO) "protected" franchises that when belly up by the boatload over the years?

Can I have another? If a competing brand opens up at a cheaper price due to a cheaper buy-in, will you refund my money, or somehow "protect" my terf from the invaders?

Another... How much of my service fees and product costs will you be allocating to advertizing on my and other franchisees behalf???

One more. I'm figuring any process that takes 3 days to teach has got to be so complex that it leads to some high failure rates. What is the ratio?

Ya got nerve. Maybe a great process. Probably not enough of either to make this fly past the first 12 "dealers", or the first 12 months.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Mitchell, the light blue one or the dark blue one? :D

NUTS!!!! Did I say BLUE????

[Mitchell Andrus]

A new Creeker has joined, and we do want to welcome him.

We've all had a chance to jab sticks in his cage. I'd like to make sure that we REALLY hear what the process is about, how it will help my shop be more profitable, and why it takes 2 days longer to learn about applying a coating than it did to learn to run my laser.

Thom,
There are a few sceptics in this very tight community of laser owners. Word-of-mouth can sell your concept, word-of-mouth can kill it dead and buried. We obviously talk to one another about anything related to lasers, even supplyers, and this forum is here so you can talk to us about your deal.

We're not convinced, obviously. Care to give it another shot?

Answer this question. Aside from grave markers, where are full color images on stone so important that a client might be willing to pay three times the cost of gray scale?

[Mitchell Andrus]

It's possible that they may be charging laser companies a fee and Epilog may have decided not to join in.



It's more likely they haven't found a way to tweak Epilog's driver yet, or worse, it just won't do what is required.

[Tom Majewski]

On face value it seems pretty lame. $5K for a secret formula and complex training, the rights to opperate in a "zone". Would you like a license for glass, or for tile? Price fixing involved?? Can I underprice the other 11 people in the class. Can I operate worldwide on the web, or only local ?

Hmmmm, there's this fellow from Nigeria who keeps emailing me who claims he's royality, and needs a few $$$ to help me get millions out of his country.

Gotta go reply.

[Thomas Hempleman]

I was interested in this process, too. I've been following it for a year now, waiting for information. Then I saw how much it cost. Five grand? For a three day training class? For a process that may not be cost effective? I don't think so, Gracie! And then to see the "attitude" on this forum from the company spokesman? I really don't think so, Gracie! Too many questions and not nearly enough answers on this one. Why does the term "snake oil" keep popping into my head :confused:

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Thom;
I am going to assume you are sincere and willing to answer questions about the process. I apologize in advance if any appear to be ignorant as I must admit to being ignorant regarding this process.
1. Does the process utilize materials manufactured by others and can these materials be purchased from the manufacturer by anyone?
2. Does the process require any machine/tool/device which can be purchased by anyone on the open market?
3. Have you filed for a patent? What exactly are you trying to patent?
4. Can you post a picture of a 12 x12 tile photo/artwork done with the process and answer the following:
a. What make/model of laser was used to produce it?
b. How long did it take to produce? Laser time/prep time?
c. What is the cost of materials required to produce it?

Thanks
Best regards;
George
LaserArts

[Luke Phillips]

Well, looks like I was one of the "dirty dozen" to get a slot. Like most, I waited anxiously for the final release of the process to the industry and passed up other opportunities in anticipation. I have no doubt that Thom and his team have spent a lot of time and money on their process and it is something special - no one else has come to market with a color process, other than dye-sublimation and heat press transfer, for lasers. But, based on what's been posted on the forum over the past couple of days, I don't think I'm ready for "prime time" and will pass up my slot.

What I had hoped for, and really been looking for, is the intergation of the Thermark pigments into a printer that would either apply the colors directly onto the surface of the material, or onto a transfer sheet that then could be fused using the laser.

I have had a margin of sucess using the Thermark colors and using Corel to de-layer the graphic - it takes a lot of computer time and processing - but the results are encouraging.

Let's give Thom and Atomic Art a chance here - he's obviously proud and protective of his work - and rightly so - hopefully some of the forum members will get to the upcoming show and see it up close and ask some tough questions?

[Eugene han]

I just ordered my laser system. I have asked several laser makers and some laser users about it. I was told to forget it. I searched the internet many times and could not find anything about their patent. I know that this process might not patenable since up to now, no info is public from the patent agency. The chance of to get full color by his claim is either impossible fo most of the substrate you will use or extremly low. How many samples they have made and sold. Are those posted in their web site were made by their claim or other processes? Anyone should be careful about entering paying huge amount of money without knowing a bit of what one can get. I also suggest to delete some of the post which is pure for the ad or promotion of their product or service without a bit clear picture of what it is.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Hi Thom;
I am going to assume you are sincere and willing to answer questions about the process. I apologize in advance if any appear to be ignorant as I must admit to being ignorant regarding this process.
1. Does the process utilize materials manufactured by others and can these materials be purchased from the manufacturer by anyone?
2. Does the process require any machine/tool/device which can be purchased by anyone on the open market?
3. Have you filed for a patent? What exactly are you trying to patent?
4. Can you post a picture of a 12 x12 tile photo/artwork done with the process and answer the following:
a. What make/model of laser was used to produce it?
b. How long did it take to produce? Laser time/prep time?
c. What is the cost of materials required to produce it?


I'll add:
If someone with a "licence" sells, but isn't based in my area, to customers in my "protected area", what will you do to protect me? What will you do to me if I do that?

Can we see a contract for attorney review?

Your website is notably devoid of details. Please fill in the gaps. That's what this forum is for.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I hope to be one of the first people to be trained.



Send a copy of the contract to your attorney BEFORE signing it. Your list of questions of your attorney beginning with "What happens if..." should be a full page, single spaced.

Seriously.

This sounds like an overly expensive training session. If the process is good and profitable, it'll hit the market sans the $5,500.00 buy-in.

One must ask, did the first guy offering Dye Sublimation get $5,500.00 for the "first 12"?

[Bob Keyes]

I'll add:
If someone with a "licence" sells, but isn't based in my area, to customers in my "protected area", what will you do to protect me? What will you do to me if I do that?

Can we see a contract for attorney review?

Your website is notably devoid of details. Please fill in the gaps. That's what this forum is for.

And, what if you sell to someone in your region and I sell their parent company in mine? Lot's of "fish hooks" here I fear!:eek:

[Tom Majewski]

In looking at his smples on the web site, I keep thinking if someone wanted to do color photos on ceramic/porcelain tiles or plates, there's already a process to spray photo emulsion on a tile, develope the picture, coat it with low fire glaze, fire it in a kiln, and last forever. Kiln, chemicals, enlarger/accessories, from scratch would be under $1K
My dad did this in the '70s with all the old family photos.
Granted, the turnaround time was 24hrs- chemical baking and kiln time, but the cost was around $10 plate including the electric bill.

[Gary Hair]

In looking at his smples on the web site, I keep thinking if someone wanted to do color photos on ceramic/porcelain tiles or plates, there's already a process to spray photo emulsion on a tile, develope the picture, coat it with low fire glaze, fire it in a kiln, and last forever. Kiln, chemicals, enlarger/accessories, from scratch would be under $1K
My dad did this in the '70s with all the old family photos.
Granted, the turnaround time was 24hrs- chemical baking and kiln time, but the cost was around $10 plate including the electric bill.

Or you could dye sub it and have it done in less than 20 minutes with a materials cost of about 7.00 per square foot.

[Bill Cunningham]

The pictures on the website, don't look any more 'photorealistic' than most stained glass pictures. Even with the extensive labour required for stained glass, a 12 x 12 piece would be cheaper than what you would have to sell this stuff for to make any money.. If your rich, and you want another hobby go for it.. But if you are considering this as a business, you better have some 'high end' customers signing on dotted lines before taking the plunge..
Quite frankly, I can't really see what the advantage would be to burn this stuff on with a laser, rather than with a kiln, or sublimation.. If your going to do doors and entranceways, your going to need one honken big laser as well.. Many companies emphasize that you can make hundreds of dollars an hour with their products or processes, but usually leave out the part about how you have to 'sell' the stuff too.. Find the market first, 'then' supply the product.. If you buy it, they won't always come!

[Chris Cordina]

This might sound silly but last year I talked to them at ARA and they said you have to be able to see colors to use this process, Ok stop laughing. I am what they call blue green color deficient and have trouble seeing true colors, with some processes this is not a problem (Example, to print a picture I don't have to know colors) but they said with this process it would. Just a heads up for all us color challenged.:)

[Tom Cullen]

Just my opinion, but seems like a very high price to be tutored on a process that may be slow and laborious. granted it looks great but what about availability of the solution and cost? I wonder would it really open other avenues of sales other than what we all already do? the price for any given item done using this process would be double that of regular engraving, especially considering the cost of product and time engraving as well as the cost off training. I'm not saying it's a bad idea or product, but I for one will be sitting this one out. I would be more likely to give it a try if it was on the open market.

[Ed Newbold]

Can we see a contract for attorney review? Your website is notably devoid of details. Please fill in the gaps. That's what this forum is for.I will hazard a guess that he won't be back to answer any of these questions.

[Jim Good]

I thought all the questions were not only "serious" questions but good ones, too. As mentioned before, service is very important and I have not seen anything that tells me anyone would receive good service with this venture.

Jim

[Luke Phillips]

FYI - there is another thread running on Engravingetc.org about Atomic Art.

[Mitchell Andrus]

FYI - there is another thread running on Engravingetc.org about Atomic Art.


I took a look. For the most part, they discuss this discussion and ponder the same annoying, and as yet unanswered questions.

[Eugene han]

Since you can not find his name from patent agency database. I do not think they have a patent issued, even an application. They never answer real questions in several websites in over a year. Why we trust them that the images posted in their websites are made from laser engravers. I asked several laser makers including those they claimed can be applied to and users and dealers of the coating they used. I was told to forget it. I have a suggestion one should always be careful to them, are they name they used in this forum are real, if not, we should deny their right to post here.

Eugene

[Rob Bosworth]

Could we be a little quick to bludgeon these guys? I looked at the samples they had last year in their booth at the ARA International show, and they were pretty impressive. Since I do not do engraving for my livelyhood, I did not understand where the application could apply. But the samples were pretty cool.

I also do not know these fellows who are trying to bring this process to the marketplace. I met them briefly in their booth. They did not appeear to be ax murderers, but I guess I don't know what an ax murderer looks like. They appeared to look a lot like US.

Are they trying to make money? I hope so. I think they are some business guys trying to figure out how to make some money on a neat thing that they either discovered, developed, or stumbled upon. We have heard about this process/ product for a couple/ few years. It seems like last year they were trying to come to an agreement with the laser system manufactures to get some return on their investment from them. Now this year, it sounds like they are trying to make some $$$s by trying to sell it to us. They have a tiger by the tail. They have invested a bunch of time and energy into developing this cool idea. I would also guess that it will have a fairly short shelf life. Once the word gets out that it is a doable process/ product, it won't take long for others to jump on the bandwagon. The more the product gets exposed, and the more money that is involved, the more knock-offs there will be. And these guys might just get left holding the bag. Nothing to show for the efforts except for a bad taste in their mouths from getting beaten up on an internet forum or two (or three).

Let's give them a chance. Let's see what we find out about what they have to offer. Can't hurt any of us if someone comes up with another way for all of us to make some money. Then, if this proves to be some kind of come-on, then we can hang em high

[Thom Price]

Hello again to all

I decided to let this thread percolate a little before getting back on, as I know many people are asking real questions and some, many of them not posting. Others are just unwilling to consider this as legitimate regadless of what I may say, we went through this on the Laer engravers etc.forum before, but after seeing many, actually most are now supportive.

First, we have spent a great deal of time and resources developing a method to find a way for laser owners to produce a very durable color product to interested clients, of which their are many. We took our time to be sure this was possible to teach and grasp easily. We offer territorial protection for the benefit of those who are willing to invest a significant amount of money in offering this new technology. We redesigned the materials for the best possible results using this process (with permission of course). We have worked tirelessly on increasing machine speeds to make it more profitable to the end user. machines can now operate at faster speeds than before and soon we will increase that further.

We have some excellent attorney's keeping us informed of all legal issues.

There are many serious business people operating lasers who are anxious to do more and make more with laser technology. Atomic art is now one of those ways and will help make them more profitable.

Answering technical questions or getting into debates is not my intention and I will not do that here. We will be at the ARA show and everyone is welcome to come see, ask questions, even the tough ones and make their own determination as to wether or not this process will be viable for them.

Our classes have beeen designed to enable Atomic Art licensees to be successful. We only have the capacity to train a small number of people per month at our facility and a few more when we begin on site training.

Color has been sorely lacking in laser applications and we have solved that problem. We are excited about that, and many laser owners are excited also, it is those people who will find a way to be involved. And it is those people whom we are committed to work with and make successful.


Thom Price
Atomic Art

[Mitchell Andrus]

Thom,

If you have a great product, you'll do fine. But, with all due respect... We are sceptical for a bunch of reasons. We've all got tools bought at a wood show that sit unused in the garage....

Infomercials tout "unlimited income" schemes which are nothing more than the rights to re-publish a "get rich by re-publishing this book" book.

Some SERIOUS questions: (you may post your replies here, as I am not going to visit you at a show and ask)

Are the materials required in the process available for purchase elsewhere by anyone who isn't in your program?

If your manufacturer sells this potion to me for instance, what recourse do you have against your supplier? Is this by contract? May I review it?

If someone reformulates the chemicals and sells them on the open market for 1/2 of your selling price, (the Chinese are good at this) what recourse do you have that would "protect" your $5,500.00 trainees?

Do you have exclusive access to the materials involved in the process?

How is this process better than any other four color process and why would anyone want me to apply this process instead of other proven technology?

Can I review a contract NOW? Perhaps you'll post it or email it to me so my attorney can review it before I commit any money.

I await your speedy reply.

[Tom Majewski]

Good luck.
I see that even today, after all these questions, your website is still the king of minimum information.

From Amway to Rug Doctor to McD's, people thought they had a leg-up with protected territories. Technologies change, chemicals improve, tools get cheaper every day, and what I bought yesterday is obsolete tomorrow, so unless your patent covers "Anything of color done by ANY laser" I don't see the buy-in.
People - end use customers, distributors, fabricators, don't like being locked into a single source supply and it's only a matter of time till....whatever you do, is done by someone else cheaper and faster.
And you total lack of exactly saying what you do- just showing a magic picture on your site and saying for $5K I can do the same. Seriously, it sounds like any other get rick quick website out there.

I'd still like to see you answer some of Mitchell's questions becaus they're the same ones I have. Also tell me the real advantage over dye-sub, photo underglazes for ceramics, ect. Is it cheaper, faster, more durable?
Lots of people have estimated what a final minimum selling price for this process might be, in excess of $200 per 12" tile. Is that true. What is you targeted customer base for this price?

How much is the royality kickback ? is it per sales dollar or per item. And my question as posted before, can a licensee sell worldwide/nationwide via the internet/mail order, or just within a set geographic area?



Edit - I'm sorry, I reread your post where you said answering questions is not your intent. nevermind.

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Thom;
I asked you, in good faith, some very basic questions which could have been easily answered with minimal effort by you without divulging any trade secrets or proprietary information. You choose not to answer them- I wonder why?
Your continued insistence to characterize your process/technique/method as the greatest thing since flush toilets without providing any useful information is the reason their are so many doubters in the audience.
Some of your early supporters on this forum implied that all would be revealed by you in your postings - wonder why we haven't heard from them recently? Now you imply that all will be revealed at the ARA show- I hope so for the sake of those investors who you have already convinced to ride the train to untold wealth and prosperity, but your continued refusal to provide answers has convinced me that this is not a viable opportunity and probably is, instead, an attempt to cash in on a non-patentable process before the recipe become public knowledge.

[Dave Fifield]

Dear Thom,

Please note that neither I nor my questions are ignorant. My intentions and questions are serious, and I hope you take them as such (for your sake).


Hello again to all

I decided to let this thread percolate a little before getting back on, as I know many people are asking real questions and some, many of them not posting.

What does this sentence mean? That there are more questions flying around, but they aren't all being posted? What?


Others are just unwilling to consider this as legitimate regadless of what I may say, we went through this on the Laer engravers etc.forum before, but after seeing many, actually most are now supportive.

Another garbled sentence I fear. I think you meant to say that once people learn the process and see the results that can be obtained, they become supportive. Right?


First, we have spent a great deal of time and resources developing a method to find a way for laser owners to produce a very durable color product to interested clients, of which their are many.

This is being questioned by a lot of laser owners. I for one have not had any requests to do full color work at all. Where is the market research that says there are many interested clients?


We took our time to be sure this was possible to teach and grasp easily.

Thom, laser owners, by and large, are a very intelligent group of people who really don't need much training in order to grasp the subtleties of any new technique/material. Do you really think we need a 3-day training course? I question this. You might do much better financially to offer the product with a simple online tutorial or DVD. Have you considered this?


We offer territorial protection for the benefit of those who are willing to invest a significant amount of money in offering this new technology.

Many times now, the issue of internet sales has been raised. Surely, in this day and age, the internet reigns supreme and all thoughts of territorial protection should be abandoned. In the interests of obtaining the best return on your investment, surely it would be best to allow a market free-for-all. How could you possibly hope to protect sales territories?


We redesigned the materials for the best possible results using this process (with permission of course).

Excellent. How is the material altered? As others have already pointed out, if it is a simple change, then it will be only a short time before knock-off products appear.


We have worked tirelessly on increasing machine speeds to make it more profitable to the end user. machines can now operate at faster speeds than before and soon we will increase that further.

Do you mean that you have been working tirelessly on adjusting the chemical formula of the materials, thus making the process faster? I fail to see how you can possibly have made any difference to the actual speed of the laser engraving machines that we use.


We have some excellent attorney's keeping us informed of all legal issues.

Good. You will likely need them in my humble opinion.


There are many serious business people operating lasers who are anxious to do more and make more with laser technology. Atomic art is now one of those ways and will help make them more profitable.

Indeed. I am one.


Answering technical questions or getting into debates is not my intention and I will not do that here. We will be at the ARA show and everyone is welcome to come see, ask questions, even the tough ones and make their own determination as to wether or not this process will be viable for them.

Isn't this a bit short sighted Thom? There are many many laser engraver owners, such as myself, that will not be attending the ARA show. Perhaps you meant to say that you would prefer to hold off on answering the tough technical questions until AFTER the trade show, when things have been announced properly?


Our classes have beeen designed to enable Atomic Art licensees to be successful. We only have the capacity to train a small number of people per month at our facility and a few more when we begin on site training.

This is the crux of the problem. You believe that your path to financial success is to limit the availability of your product to a few specially chosen people. The larger community of laser engraver owners, however, believe you will attain more success by allowing a market free-for-all. Time will tell us which is correct.


Color has been sorely lacking in laser applications and we have solved that problem. We are excited about that, and many laser owners are excited also, it is those people who will find a way to be involved. And it is those people whom we are committed to work with and make successful.

Sentences should not begin with a preposition. However, I forgive this minor grammatical transgression and embrace the wider meaning of your paragraph. You would be even more excited if your marketing approach were to be modified to include more people at a lower cost-of-entry, in my opinion.

Regards,

[Dave Fifield]

(snip) We've all got tools bought at a wood show that sit unused in the garage....


Ahem, I resemble that remark!

[Jeff Lehman]

I'm not sure if its the photography, but the "look" of the different materials, doesn't appeal to me...but the glass looks very cool!

[Mark Winlund]

"Answering technical questions or getting into debates is not my intention and I will not do that here...

Has your scam alarm gone off? Mine sure has. I have been in this trade for more than 30 years, and have done my share of unwise investments. You are not likely to ever recover your investment, much less make a profit.

Just my opinion,

Mark

[Luke Phillips]

Well, they said that about Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, and Alexander G. Bell - careful, your opinon is close to being libelous. Can't we dispense with the character assasinations and let people decide for themselves? Are you saying beginners are stupid or just that it takes 30 years to learn not to be?

[Eugene han]

You could not find any info by searching either Thom, or Alice, or atomic art. There is no patent application or issued patent. I must suggest never deal with those who use a false name and hide its identity. Whatever he claims is not patentable at all. What is the number, name, inventor's name. As I was told by many laser maker and users, forget it. Anyone use a false name should be banned post here.

[Tom Majewski]

It's possible he just submitted the $80 provisional patent application, which I don't believe are in the database.
That basically gives you a year to research, finance, and file for a normal patent while giving you the right to call something "patent pending" for one year. If after a year, you don't get a patent for whatever reason, your "patent pending" claim is revoked.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Dave,

Time to cut BOTH blue wires on this guy. I just hope nobody gets hurt.

[Bruce Boone]

>It's possible he just submitted the $80 provisional patent application, which I don't believe are in the database.

The other possibility is that they announced around the day they filed to the patent office. I just filed a patent (having also to do with laser stuff) just a few weeks ago and it has not shown up yet.

[Gary Hair]

Dave,

Time to cut BOTH blue wires on this guy. I just hope nobody gets hurt by this clown.

I think that the lynch mob mentality here is simply childish - you really need to get a life and worry about things that:
1. you have control over
2. you have a clue about

[Eugene han]

I understand it takes some time to public the info. However, those claims were posted 3 years ago, maybe even earlier. That is why I think it is not patentable at all. They just want to land some money from people. How many images they sold, where is their buyers. I think one need to notify police or the show organizer so that no people put hard earned money into it without any return.

[Jim Good]

I don't have a problem in giving someone time to get their act together and make sure they have their ducks in a row before making their product available. At the time they are ready to solicit funds from people, they need to be ready to tell people what they will get for their money. How can you be secretive on one hand and ask for $5500 in another? You'll have to give me more information other than "trust me" before I will give anybody $5500. Atomic Art has done nothing to gain my trust at this point.

[Rodne Gold]

Atomic art does not realise that the level of scepticism here and eleswhere is horrendous , there are VERY few folk who see this as viable and many who have reasonable questions unanswered. This bodes ill for the process and the company touting it. Surely they cant be so shortsighted as not to address this!!!
It's pretty easy to do so , be transparent. This cloak and dagger stuff is stupid as part of any new and wonderous process/development is to market it succesfully. This has been a dogs breakfast in terms of convincing anyone to adopt. This still smells like a scam of sorts to me and nothing that has been said in Thoms last post has put this feeling to rest. The co has used the internet to generate a buzz , but the buzz is not warm and fuzzy but more like a swarm of angry bees , Very poor PR imho.

[Eugene han]

They used different names both co and personal. That is why I do not think he used his real name. More than 3 years ago they posted, that is something one should to escape to deal with those guys.

[Leigh Costello]

While at a convention this past weekend (which generated a nice paycheck for my hubby and me), we discussed this very type of process with another laser owner. I am not familiar with Thermark, but is it possible to apply Thermark with an airbrush type of applicator? And if so, wouldn't the entire process be simplified? Imagine the possibilities for an airbrush artist with a laser.

As for the Atomic Art company, customer relations will indeed make or break a company. Thom and company have a great idea, I just hope they survive the melee.

[Jim A. Walters]

I have tried Thermark on glass with an airbrush. I didn't have any luck spraying with any consistency, nor getting a consistent color when I did have decent coverage. The airbrush tip plugged quickly, and I got frustrated and gave up.

Now my disclaimer - At the time I was trying this, I only had my laser a month or two, and I had production jobs I was trying to fine tune, so my patience was short. The Thermark was extremely expensive, and it didn't seem like it would be worth the effort.

I wonder if colored toner would adhere to a substrate using the laser as a heat source? I wouldn't use air assist!

[Rodne Gold]

There is a secret to applying thermark/cermark whatever to a substrate with consistent thickness. We use a paasche with a no 5 needle , but the big secret is to dilute a little , add a drop or 2 of dishasher liquid (acts as a wetting agent) and use a gravity feed hopper NOT the bottle thing. We have a dish of water as well and dip the airgun in and clear it after a bit of spraying. We built a pex spray enclosure to capture the overspray which we scrape off and re-use.
Stone , glass whatever can be sent for digital printing with UV curable inks and then coated with a clear epoxy etc forr durable and photorealistic as well as colour matched graphics.
Colour engraving can be done without anything on metal using Yag lasers , check out GCC's site (gccworld) and look at the colour engraving thingy
http://www.laserproi.com/en/mark_showcase_detail.php?ID=English_050623030833

[Keith Outten]

Ladies and Gentlemen.

Please read the following excerpt from our Terms of Service:

D. Forum Moderation

2. Disagreements, Flaming, and Personal or Professional Attacks
Disagreements are almost certain to occur. Members shall be respectful of dissenting opinions and refrain from name-calling, personal or professional attacks. Messages that contain critical content must provide all factual information pertinent to the problem and enough data to support any claims or complaints.

I have edited several posts in this thread to remove comments that were disrespectful and lacked supportive information. Although the claims made by the originator of this new process obviously have brought forth serious questions it is in everyone's best interest that we remain within the boundaries of our TOS.

Thanks,
Keith

.

[Keith Outten]

Hello again to all

Answering technical questions or getting into debates is not my intention and I will not do that here. We will be at the ARA show and everyone is welcome to come see, ask questions, even the tough ones and make their own determination as to whether or not this process will be viable for them.

Thom Price
Atomic Art

Thom,

If you are not willing to share technical information with us here then what is the purpose of your participation in this thread?

At this point it seems that Ed Albrite has advertised your product and invited you to join us to answer questions. If you are unable to provide any technical data or answer legal questions concerning your technique the ill feelings you have received here have been counterproductive.

Your invitation to the ARA show is very generous, clearly you understand that a very small percentage of our Community will be able to attend.

.

[Rodne Gold]

Keith , I beleive the original poster and those from Atomic Art broke your Part E of the TOS. However I would not delete the thread cos of this , I think it needs to stand.

[Dave Fifield]

Dave,

Time to cut BOTH blue wires on this guy. I just hope nobody gets hurt.

OK, here goes....first separate the wires....

http://www.woodust.com/Bluewires0_s.jpg

Just the light blue and dark blue ones y'say?.......

http://www.woodust.com/Bluewires1_s.jpg

Holding my breath.......

http://www.woodust.com/Bluewires2_s.jpg

......DONE!.....phew......I hope that's the last we see of that problem!!

Cheers,

[Frank Corker]

LOL :D ....you are a one!

[Thom Price]

I would like to apologize to those who have been offended by the posts I made recently I really did not mean any disrespect and probably came off too agressive. I know this and other sites are really for a sharing of information from many dedicated and talented people.

Much of the negativity has been directed at myself and probably deseredly so after reflection on my comments. will make some adjustments to my future postings so as to be as forthcoming about this as possible.

I do extend a warm greeting to those who will be at the show to see what we have to offer the laser industry and then; will await your comments here.

Thank you to those who are willing to give the process a chance to make it on its own merit.

Thom Price
Atomic Art

[Luke Phillips]

Thanks Thom! I think some others should redeem themselves here too. Can you put an end to the patent application question and post the patent application number?

[Frank Corker]

Failing that you could always leave a fairly vague description of the process, might relieve the tension that has been pouring out here

[Mark Winlund]

Well, there it is again. Still no answers to very specific questions, none of which will let any "trade secrets" out. As has been pointed out, many will not be able to attend the show, and given straight answers, might buy into this process. Wanting clear answers to legitimate questions is quite reasonable. When the answers are not forthcoming, most people will see a red flag.

Again, just an opinion (one backed by a lot of experience)

Mark

[Mitchell Andrus]

You are correct. I'm sorry for my behavior.

Curiosity about a new product brought to the market at an outragious buy-in cost and Thom's reluctance to reply to my inquiries got the better of me.

I'll patiently await Thom's replies to any of the almost 25 questions posted in this thread....

I hope nobody gets hurt by this respectable businessman.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Thom,

One more time......

May I get a copy of the participant's contract for attorney review?

______ Yes _______ No

Seems to me to be a reasonable request - and no, I'm not going to go to a show to see results - I BELIEVE THE PROCESS WORKS, really, I do!!! I Promise!!!

I'm convinced - I'm ready to write you a check.... Honest, as soon as my attorney reviews the contract. That should not scare you in any way, or does it?

Even McDonald's lets you see the menu before you buy a burger.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Did I say blue again?

sorry, I meant red, NO, YELLOW!!!! YELLOW, that's it.

Yep...... yellow.

[Dave Jones]

A couple of calm thoughts about this:

1 - Cermark and Thermark are patented with very strong general patents that cover most methods of marking substrates with lasers by applying a chemical and hitting it with a laser. These patents are strong enough that somebody can't just make a new formula and sell their own version of Cermark for less money without violating the patent.

2 - From what I've read in the two forums this new process uses an improved variant of Cermark/Thermark made in conjunction with Thermark. A patent on an improvement of a process is possible, and would require licensing rights to the original patent in order to bring it to market. So if these guys did come up with an improved process and have made the appropriate deal with Cermark/Thermark to produce and market it, and IF the improvement receives a patent, then depending on the deal they make with the current Cermark/Thermark patent holders, they could indeed prevent the Chinese or anybody else from making a cheaper version of the same materials.

====

On the other side of things, what has been seriously asked here and not answered, and involves no technical questions or anything that would give away secrets is:

1 - Will this material be available ONLY to those that pay the high prices?

2 - What about internet sales? If teritories are defined by geographic location then that means it is not possible for any of the people that pay this money to be able to sell on the internet, since the buyers could be in somebody else's territory. How will Atomic Art deal with licensees that then try to sell on the internet, and by doing so interfere with other territories?

[Jerre Griffin]

Is there a difference between these apparently competing technologies? The owners of LightWave Art have been trying to sell their entire system on eBay for 43K--no takers. They also claim a patent, but I am unable to find it either.

Jerre

[Luke Phillips]

I don't want to rekindle the fire here, but if anyone is interested in some reading on the background of the process, the following patent citations are offered: (www.freepatentsonline.com (http://www.freepatentsonline.com))

7060654 Imaging media and materials used therein
6827275 Method of tracking and marking tools
6796733 Thermal transfer ribbon with frosting ink layer
6680121 Bismuth-containing laser markable compositions and methods of making and using same
6635846 Selective laser compounding for vitrescent markings
6531679 Method for the laser machining of organic materials
6503310 Laser marking compositions and method
6503316 Bismuth-containing laser markable compositions and methods of making and using same
6497985 Method for marking steel and aluminum alloys
6238847 Laser marking method and apparatus
6075223 High contrast surface marking

[Ed Albrite]

I`m sorry I have not had the chance to reply sooner but I have been in Mexico helping the Tarahumara Indians of Copper Canyon. When I return March first I will be training with Thom. I promise to post pictures A.S.A.P. I hope this will calm some of the tension that has been generated.Once I have completed training I will answer any & all questions that I can.Thanks to everyone who believes and is willing to give Thom a chance.

[Jim Good]

Ed,

I spent some time at Copper Canyon. It's a beautiful place. I bought some gifts from the T. Indians that you mentioned. The women are not suppose to look directly at you so it's neat to see them sneak a peak! The Indians all come out of the mountains to go to church and they bring their livestock! They don't want them stolen so they bring them to church and a family member watches over them during church services. It's quite a scene. They literally come out from under the rocks and I'm sure you know what I mean! Thanks for letting me remember my most excellent adventure!

P.S. I'm still skeptical on the Atomic Art opportunity! :D

[James & Zelma Litzmann]

Did anyone make it by their booth in Las Vegas, if so what's the report?

[Jim Huston]

Yes, I stopped by thier booth. Lots of people around but info was not! I don't think they are ready for prime time yet. Interesting looking samples. Still pushing "protected area" and such.

[Belinda Barfield]

This might sound silly but last year I talked to them at ARA and they said you have to be able to see colors to use this process, Ok stop laughing. I am what they call blue green color deficient and have trouble seeing true colors, with some processes this is not a problem (Example, to print a picture I don't have to know colors) but they said with this process it would. Just a heads up for all us color challenged.:)

Chris,
Thanks for the info. I am red-green color deficient. Can't tell brown from green, purple from blue, etc. If I have to see "true colors" to use this process I am out of luck!

[Thom Price]

Hello to all

Thank you for those who came to the show and gave us their assesments of our products most were very favorable. The attendance at least at our booth which we shared with Thermark/Permanent Impressions was very busy and productive.

The questions have been primarily about the territories and internet sales restrictions. I will attempt to address those questions.

First, the territories were established to protect licensees from direct competition while developing a client based built around the technology.
Our promise (in writing) is to not resell any similar licensees in that established territory for at least 18 months. We hope that will give our licensees adequate time to establish a base and give them room to grow and succeed.

The internet sales is something we can not police and will not try too, sales generated in this unique form will be ongoing and we encourage our licensees to consider offering this as another way to generate an income stream. We will offer licensees Ideas that they can immplement if they wish to facilitate internet sales. We are also going to recommend each licensee be open to the idea of becoming a fullfillment center if they wish for custom work we may generate to them through our network of Architects and designers who have shown interest and may want to incorporate this technology into projects in or around their territory.

It will take a very long time before any area could be saturated even without territorial protections since we intend to stick with the one on one training we have developed. This is not a buy a CD and off you go technology, we are committed to keeping this as a very hands on training; to ensure success.

Thanks again for your questions and I am sorry for the vague answers in the past I am new to this, and was not vague because I have something to hide, but only to be careful with this technology.

We are in the process of enabling mobile trainers and plan to have several soon, especially for large format laser platform owners who will need on-site training.

Thom Price
Atomic Art

[Rodne Gold]

Thom
In essence , as far as I see you offer training only and an 18 month moritorium on training someone else in the area. Internet sales are a free for all.
If someone is "trained" , they could ostensibly train someone else as well. How are you going to stop that ? If you were training me , I would also have staff members present ,cos they would be doing the actual work. Would you only train ONE person in an org?
So now you had your launch and are less vague ,how about answering the whole host of other Q's posed in this thread and those on other forums.
What on Earth is a Fulfillment Center and how much is it to become one of those?

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Thom;
Thanks for the info on the business side and territories. Now I hope you have a few minutes to answer some of the technical/process questions . Once again:

1. Does the process utilize materials manufactured by others and can these materials be purchased from the manufacturer by anyone?
2. Does the process require any machine/tool/device which can be purchased by anyone on the open market?
3. Have you filed for a patent? What exactly are you trying to patent?
4. Can you post a picture of a 12 x12 tile photo/artwork done with the process and answer the following:
a. What make/model of laser was used to produce it?
b. How long did it take to produce? Laser time/prep time?
c. What is the cost of materials required to produce it?

If anyone attended the show and received answers to such questions, we would be interested in the details.

Thanks
Best regards;
George
LaserArts

[Lorene Fangman]

Wow, you guys are sounding like little kids :eek:....beat up the newcomer....calm down ;), it's a very good idea and it's a durable idea and as for patents, they take time that's why they are liscensing right now, it protects them as the inventor....some of you asked who would use this process? Use your imaginations :)....homeowners and businesses of course...you can do personalized kitchen island fronts with color, and backsplashes with color, floor medallions, bathroom walls, the ideas are endless, the best thing of all is the durablity of the product, you have to make it what it's worth, sell it as personally designed for them. The hard part is getting the art, but you have to be workable and pass the cost onto the customer upfront, art does cost of course. From my understanding on their site the "ink" process is very durable to all substrates it's applicable to right now, and that speaks for itself, especially if they take a wire brush to it and it does'nt come off. I paint my marble and my granite and wood that I do with a variety of paints, but I base it on where it is going and how it's used. I haven't masterd glass, it's difficult with actual detail photos, but straight logos might be easier with glass paints, which I am going to try soon here. I have used oils to paint granite and marble and have great results, I have also used oil enamel paints and have had good results, but the durability of it scares me to push it too far for floors and bathrooms. I do not recommend customers to put a mural in a "greasy" area above a stove, I go for the middle of the counter top or above a sink with no windows or an offset bar or buffet area, or on the front of the islands or fireplace surrounds. I seal them when cured out with sealers choice 15 gold and when I did my test pieces, no paint came off, I even left a piece painted with oil enamel outside during winter and scraped at it and it didn't budge. I do tell them not to use harsh abrasives or chemicals, just a warm damp wash cloth. I have also painted personal photos for people on 12x12's, if you would like to see some pics, let me know, and if you want to know more about it drop me a line :) I'll be more than happy to chat about it!

[Rodne Gold]

Erm ... Dont you ask pertinent questions when investing $5k+? Or do you just trust what anyone tells you.

There are far cheaper / easier processes to do what they are doing and they are as durable. for example I have a printer that can print on anything 10 cm thick at 1440 dpi and with the apopriate epoxy/urethanne 2 part coating will be totally impervious to anything. Cost to print per sq ft is like $2-3 at worst. time to print a sq ft is like 2 mins at worst.
Putting durable colour on ceramics etc is hardly a new concept , potters have been doing it for 100's of years

There are other issues too , for example can the process do white? Cos if it cant , you are majorly limited in terms of substrates , what is the opacity of the print , can you colour match, can you do curved surfaces and so on.
Too many unanswered questions as to the viability of the process.

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Lorene;
It sounds like you may have some of the answers some of us have been looking for- appreciate you taking the time to answer any posted here which you have info on. Did you attend the show and get the info there or from another source? Thanks
Best regards;
George
LaserArts

[Dave Fifield]

Hello Lorene,

Welcome to the 'creek.

Did you read the whole thread? There are actually very good reasons why you might perceive us as "sounding like little kids" (although I'm really not sure how you can ascertain what we sound like from our postings). There is (are?) a plethora of pertinant technical and business questions people have that are not being addressed. People are merely trying to get Thom et al to respond. What's childish about that?

In your posting, you seem to have conveniently hit on the one, and only one, technical topic that is actually covered on their website - durability. OK, we get it, it's durable, but what about all the other technical questions people have? Absolutely none of them have been addressed to date.

As for patents, you can only license them when they have been granted to you. No one has yet been able to find a patent grant or even application for this process and, to his detrement, Thom continues to leave patent related questions unanswered. How can they possibly license something if they don't have a patent granted to them for it?

Now perhaps you can see why the good people of SMC are very wary of the whole deal? If you can't, then perhaps you'd care to disclose your relationship to Thom et al.......

Regards,

[Mitchell Andrus]

Licencing a product for which he holds no patents nor rights is akin to fraud.

If there is a patent, I'd like to see it.
If he is a licencee to someone else's patent, I'd like to see the agreement before signing anything.
If there is a patent pending, I'd like to see it.
If I have no protection against the inventor selling around me and my agreement, my agreement with Thom is invalid, so what's the point???

Lorene. This may be the best thing going. Maybe the process works. We have professional questions, and we're getting no answers. So for now, Thom is assumed to be selling something to us against our interests. I'm paying attention to my wallet.

Printing a piece for household installations, even many, many times over isn't going pay the freight on this process. This is an industrial solution in search of a need.... So far, I can't come up with ANY scenario that can't be performed much cheaper some other way.

Not childish. Real unanswered questions.

[George M. Perzel]

Mitchell;
I'm looking for answers also and every day that goes by my skepticism grows, however, I need to point out that it is not fraud to license a process for which a patent is pending-it's done everyday. Ironically, if a patent is not granted, the license terms (royalties, etc.) are still binding and valid unless specifically stated to be null and void in the license.Best regards;
George
LaserArts

[Mitchell Andrus]

Assuming he's "protecting" his licensees from outsiders and each other, he's got to have equal protection from whomever he receives his materials - so... the better his hold on the patents, pending or not, the more protection he can offer. He's offering 18 months to licensees... wow. It can take that long just to begin a business venture with 'new' technology.

It's likely to be fraud to offer more than he has the rights to. This is akin to sub-leasing "your" apartment. Without the rights to sub-let, this is fraud. You own the leasehold, not the rights to sub-let unless specifically granted to you by your landlord. SOOOOO... it is reasonable to assume he has no such rights to "lease" the technology to licensees until he proves otherwise.

Moot point for, if it feels like a scam, can't (or won't) be shown not to be a scam, it might as well be a scam. Run away.

[Thom Price]

Hello aagain

Somehow this has deriorated into a verbal slugfest and that was never my intention. So to answer what are mostly legitimate questions I will attempt to explain the questions so elequently outlined by George and a few others.

First the Process Atomic Art uses a reformulated version of Thermark inks, which will be repackaged and sold only to Licensees.
Next the process does not require any new hardware tools etc. only a three day training class and specific software which is readily available.
We have filed for an improvement process patent predicated on several held Patents and are working with the holders of those patents to promote this technology. They are as convinced that this will greatly enhance laser decorating in functional environments as are we.
If you visit our website there are several 12x12 images for example the Masterpeice where the picture has a close up photo. That Image can now be completed in about 50 minutes lase time. our prep time is very short several minutes in all but we have been doing this for a while. That image was produced on a Laser Pro 30 watt.
Each machine works best at different speeds but all are capable of high speeds now. The cost of material is just under $25 for a 12x12 for the entire image, if buying the large containers, and just under $30 if buying the small containers.

We offered to enable all machines at no cost and the machines we enabled are the ones that were provided to us by the manufacturers themselves.

I fully understand the reluctance of many to justify these prices but the durability is the primary issue, testing has revealed that these are floor grade quality something not available previously. Those who have signed up for training are excited due to this aspect especially, and are currently talking with architects like we have over the past year. The testing others have subjected the 250+ samples we have sent to interested architects designers etc. tells us we have something that will withstand the standards these proffessionals demand before recommending it.

I hope I have answered your questions, and am confident that the process will allow those who become involved with it, to increase the profitability of their hard work and creativity.

Thom Price
Atomic Art

[Mitchell Andrus]

Thanks, Thom. This tells us a lot.

It's about $25.00 per square foot for materials, and about 50 mins. per square foot run time. At about $1.00 per minute laser time, this makes the cost to me about $75.00 per square foot. If I add labor, shipping, gen business overhead, marketing, spoils cost, and amortization of the 'buy-in' costs, I've got to sell at over $165.00 per square foot, out the door.

You've got to admit, $165.00 psf is up there. Maybe NASA can afford this, my clients can't, no matter how well it wears.

Can you tell us any application where $165.00+ per square foot will be supported Thom? Seriously.

[Eugene han]

One must also understand that the chance of getting a acceptable result might be low so that the practical price should be much much higher. Why the laser makers do not involve shows everything. Anyone can have some number and calculated the profit. That is not the case.

[Mark Fitzmorris]

Thom,

Thank you for your post. Your response was helpful to those that are wondering if your process is something that could improve their business. In my case at this time I do not believe that it would be a cost effective/worthwhile process for my business (gift and awards) but if my market was based more towards architects then perhaps your process would be worth looking into. The costs per square foot may be justifiable in the high end construction market but it seems there are cheaper alternatives for those wishing to add color to awards and gifts. I understand your desire to get the word out about your product and I hope that you are not discouraged by the responses on this forum. There are a large variety of of businesses represented on this forum and some may find your product to be worthwhile for their business model while others will not. All of us however, will benefit from straight answers to our questions and your last post provided some of those. Your product could open up new or different markets for lasers so I would be interested in hearing about your and your customers progress in developing those markets.

[Keith Outten]

Mitchell,

I do dye sublimation on Dupont Corian which produces a really nice sign or photo in color that is suitable for exterior service. I charge $1.12 cents per square inch so a 12" square would be $161.28 and I rarely experience anyone who balks at the price. If you consider what a frame and custom cut matt would cost for a photograph the cost starts looking very reasonable.

.

[Mark Fitzmorris]

Keith,

You brought up a good point. But of course that leads me to more questions; How does the start up costs for systems that already exist, such as dye sublimation, compare to the Atomic Art system? How much support is available for those that use existing systems versus the new technology? What is the difference in the learning curves needed for the different systems? What materials will this new system work with that other systems will not?

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Thom;
Thanks for the answers and information-clears up a lot in my mind but still makes me wonder why you were so reluctant to provide this info earlier? None of the info reveals any trade secrets regarding the process but does provide the basic facts needed to make a preliminary economic judgement regarding the technology and its positioning in the laser market, as evidenced by some of the recent postings.
I'm old enough to have learned to "never say never "(thought email was a fad), but I don't believe your process is economically viable in the traditional laser market. There may be a niche market for certain applications of your process but they will have to be developed and that requires big advertising and market development bucks.
I think Mitchell's cost estimate/sell price is conservatively low-cost of training alone is $50 per square foot over the first 100 square feet or so. I'm sure the process is not error free and has a learning curve so waste must also be considered- figure $250 per square foot to make any money- say $2500 for a 36" x 36" corporate logo in a floor. Not too many opportunities like that around.
More importantly, I think you are severly underestimating the ability of the technology duplication market and its ability to rapidly provide substitutes for the materials used. The larger the market becomes the more attractive it becomes for the proliferation of substitutes- without regard to distribution territories or license agreements.
Enough said- I wish you well on your endeavor and trust that those who follow have more vision than I and can reap the rewards for their investments.
Best regards;
George
LaserArts

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

Keith, you indicate that your corian/sublimated product is suitable for exterior applications.

My experience with sublimation on any substrate is that when exposed to any UV source, the life of the image is limited. Have you done some, or had some testing done the refutes this fact?

From what I have read on the color laser process, it is durable in abrasion testing ...how does your corian hold up to anyone walking on it?

I agree with you that $150 a sq. ft is not a prohibitive price to charge for a durable product. I just wish I had a laser engraver so that I could expand into this new opportunity before it becomes as common as sublimation.

Doug

[Mitchell Andrus]

WOW. I had no idea dye-sub cost so much. I guess he's not so far off then.

[Dave Jones]

...ability of the technology duplication market and its ability to rapidly provide substitutes for the materials used

Since the material is a reformulation of Thermark, which is a patented material and nobody that I am aware of has attempted to sell a substitute for Thermark (other than cross licensed Cermark), I would guess that as long as he gets the improvement patent then nobody else will be selling clones of that material.

[Mike Null]

I have to wonder about the point made by Rodne earlier that glazed tiles have the same appeal, maybe more and certainly in a wide variety, even with original art, for a fraction of the price.

I am really skeptical about the entire concept from the start up cost to the "protected" market plan to the marketability in volume sufficient to justify the investment of time and money.

[David Lavaneri]

Maybe NASA can afford this, my clients can't, no matter how well it wears.

Mitchell,

You're exactly right. The term "What the market will bear" isn't based on a single market.

The fact that Atomic Art exhibited at the ARA (Awards & Recognition Association) show, in Las Vegas, doesn't mean the awards industry is their target market.

Having said that, there were some interested parties, who realize that expanding their offerings can open doors to new horizons.

I realize that expressing any positive thoughts toward Atomic Art, puts me in the position of being seen as a shill for the company (as evidenced by comments directed at another person in this thread).

I have no axe to grind, financial or otherwise.

Atomic Art shouldn't be confused with "Automatic Art", which is the purpose for the intensive training. Thom and Terry want people to be successful.

That can't happen, unless the licensees fully understand the process.

I can surely understand the skepticism and controversy, surrounding the process, but I can also understand the excitement in seeing a new process unfold to the benefit of those who choose to take advantage of the opportunity.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Keith Outten]

Mark and Doug,

I don't want to steal this thread but for comparisons sake here is some info on Corian dye-sub.

1. I wouldn't use Corian as a flooring surface, it is a plastic material so it wouldn't fare well in any kind of foot trafic.
2. My experience with dye-sub is limited to Corian. I have no long term testing specs to quote but Ken Dolph has said that Corian dye-sub would last for 20 to 30 years as I recall. Last summer I did a test and left a small Corian dye-sub plaque on the dashboard of my truck for 4 months. There was no visible fading or any other degrade I could notice. I compared the test piece to a second piece left in my office desk, they were identical.
3, To dye-sub Corian you need a printer that accepts heat transfer dye-sub ink cartridges. I use Artanium ink. You also need a heat press capable to 325 degrees F. Prices for equipment are all over the place but I just priced a medium to high quality system...17" wide by unlimited length (roll paper) printer and a 20" by 24" press, the total package cost about $6,800.00. I believe you can get a low end system for just over a grand.

Knowing very little about Atomic Arts process I can't even say the two processes are comparable other than both are color processes. Of course Corian dye-sub has no training or license requirements and you don't need a laser engraver. It takes 20 minutes to press a plaque. Oh yeah, its very profitable :)

.

[Rodne Gold]

$1600 a sq meter is a rediculously prohibitive selling price , good luck building a business based on those prices. I wouldnt even attempt or try to build a market for anything like that cos I KNOW that it is not really achievable in my country -----maybe in America where one is born every minute ;)

IMHO this process is trying to re-invent the wheel or is akin to cutting your grass with a nail scissor. I do a huge amount of industrial /architectural work as well as Awards and can tell you that there is no ways anything this price will be used in the signage or architectural fields let alone the awards industry.

David , I cannot see how this laser process is going to open new vistas ,other printing methods are as durable , and better quality and a whole lot cheaper.
How about listing some applications and who will pay the price for em?

[Jim Good]

It will be interesting to see how this all works out in the end. I will be watching from afar. Very very afar!

Jim

[Keith Outten]

Rodne,

Pricing products in the USA is tough these days, we aren't price competitive with the rest of the world on products that are labor intensive IMO. In my area we have seen our homes double in value this year which means our taxes are going up to match. Insurance, especially business insurance, has been climbing like a rocket for the last 5 years and our national overhead leaves us with huge tax bills to pay, particularly our defense budget. Our strict safety laws add major overhead costs that other countries don't have to bare and the cost to educate our children has doubled in the last five years.

The situation here is difficult, we are losing our manufacturing base to foreign countries due to cheap labor at an alarming rate and our trade imbalance is widening each year. To make matters worse almost every corporate president in America are earning multi-million dollar annual salaries that are IMO immoral. There are major price differences between our East and West coasts so it isn't a surprise that our prices would seem way out of whack on another continent.

I believe a huge adjustment is in our future based on the impact of the global marketplace.

The good news is that we can produce more food than we need to feed ourselves and have plenty of fresh water, two things that will be more precious than oil in the not to distant future.

.

[Gary Hair]

To dye-sub Corian you need a printer that accepts heat transfer dye-sub ink cartridges. I use Artanium ink. You also need a heat press capable to 325 degrees F.

Keith, Is this specific to Artanium ink or will sublijet work as well? Please let me know your temp and time settings, I would really like to be able to sub corian.

Thanks! Gary

[Keith Outten]

Gary,

There are at least two brands of ink that will work to dye-sublimate Corian, Artanium is one of them. Check out Alpha Supply's web site, better yet call them, they have alot of knowledge and are willing to share.

The temperature needs to be 325 degrees F for 20 minutes. Your time may vary depending on your press so you may have to experiment a bit. The temperature should never exceed 350 F or the Corian will start to degrade. My heat press is very old and I'm not sure how accurate the temp guage is.

At 325 degrees Corian will get very soft and can be bent easily.

http://www.alphasupply.com/

.

[Ed Maloney]

Any update on this topic?

[Joe Pelonio]

Even as a laser owner, I think I'd refer a customer asking about full color custom floor tiles to a custom tile company that has been doing them already in high-traffic commercial areas, and probably for less than $165/SF.

I recently saw someone selling colored laser tiles in a booth at a classic car
swap meet, and looked them over closely. The quality of the images were not even close to what I see on the website below, and have seen in several high-end stores around here.

http://www.imaginetile.com/about_it.html

[Roy Brewer]

Any update on this topic?Ed,

This is hardly official, rather my observation/opinion. What has happened recently is that the TherMark people have become much more involved. Paul Harrison(head man at TherMark?) has set up Permanent Impressions as a marketing arm of a "coalition" between Atomic Art and TherMark. It is my understanding that Permanent Impressions will be marketing the licensing and supplies. Permanent Impressions then, has started working out arrangements with equipment distributors to push the product/process to their clients.

As a result, I think you'll see in the future a much more professional response to the questions "on the table" than we've seen in the past.

[Ed Albrite]

Sorry it has taken me so long to post. I trained with Thom & Terry in March and was very pleased with the process.Their attention detail and one on one training is very refreshing. Since then I have stepped away from my laser engraving business to dedicate more time to mission trips to Mexico working with the Tarahumara Indians of Copper Canyon. I sold my share of www.ameritechlaserengravers.com (http://www.ameritechlaserengravers.com) to my partners Matt & Joe . I have accepted a part time position Thom in sales & training thanks to his willingness to accommodate my missions schedule. This will probably discredit my opinion with some Creekers but I hope my honesty will overcome this. The Atomic-Art process is still in my opinion the best thing going in full-color or I would not associate my name with it no matter what the rewards.The manager of Dal-Tile in Las Vegas is not happy with their dye-sub products and wants to replace their display with Atomic Arts. Dal-Tile is one top distributors of tile world wide.This should create opportunities for Atomic-Art licencees nationwide. Several people have completed their training with Atomic-Art and are very excited about the world of possibilities they now have to offer their customers. if anyone has any questions they can PM or email me at ealbrite@hotmail.com . If you want to speak to me please call me at 406-253-9918. This will be my last posting on this topic unless requested or provoked to do so.I believe 7600+ viewings of this thread has made this topic interesting and informative for all of us.I am trying to post pictures from training but I am having trouble doing so. If anyone wants to see them please email me.

[Dave Fifield]

Ed, email the pictures to me - I'll post 'em for you.

[Lorene Fangman]

Mitchell and David, I'm sorry, your right, I shouldn't be so bitchy, probably PMS 'ing when I wrote it :), and I have four kids, so they were probably on my mind as ususal :). I see your point in trying to get the technical answers out there, I was just responding to mainly the durablity of the product and what a good idea it was to come up with something in the line applying paint to the substrates. I do wish they would come out with a video of how it is applied so we can see if this is something we would like to tackle, and have the added expense to our work. On their site they have the finished video of products but no application videos. I also would like to see how the effects of this type of application effects our "air" and how we would have to set up exhaust systems to get rid of the chemicals released when applied by the laser, because as we know now, some of the fumes are not good for you. I do apologize if I made you upset in anyway ;) not intended, trust me....I'm usually pretty nice, once you get to know me ;) and you guys are way more knowledgeable then me from what I read, so I am sorry if I offended you in any way!! FRIENDS? :) lorene

[Dave Fifield]

As promised, here are the pictures from Ed Albrite. I have made a webpage with them all on here (http://woodust.com/FullColor.html) too. Click on the pictures to see them in high resolution.

http://www.woodust.com/images/AllenJimmerson_s.jpg (http://www.woodust.com/files/AllenJimmerson.JPG)

http://www.woodust.com/images/blackgranite_s.jpg (http://www.woodust.com/files/blackgranite.JPG)

http://www.woodust.com/images/cougar_s.jpg (http://www.woodust.com/files/cougar.JPG)

http://www.woodust.com/images/dinner_s.jpg (http://www.woodust.com/files/dinner.JPG)

http://www.woodust.com/images/glass_s.jpg (http://www.woodust.com/files/glass.JPG)

http://www.woodust.com/images/photo1_s.jpg (http://www.woodust.com/files/photo1.JPG)

http://www.woodust.com/images/photo2_s.jpg (http://www.woodust.com/files/photo2.JPG)

http://www.woodust.com/images/TJ_s.jpg (http://www.woodust.com/files/TJ.JPG)

I'm sure Ed will come on and explain a bit about each of these pictures. The finished images look very good to me. There may be something to this process if the price is right.....

Cheers,

[Jeff Lehman]

But it gets very close to the look and durability that dye-sublimation achieves. Perhaps it can be applied to some surfaces that cannot be use in dye-sub apps.

My personal opinion is that the narrow market that will result from licensing may hurt them, but hey, that's what our free market is all about!

[Joe Pelonio]

Not bad, but still not close to the quality of the graphics on the imaginetile products.

[Ed Maloney]

Any additional news on this?

[Jack Harper]

You can follow the progress of the patent application on the USPTO sit at
http://portal.uspto.gov/external/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4gPMATJgFieAfqRqC LGpugijnABX4_83FT9IKBEpDlQxNDCRz8qJzU9MblSP1jfWz9A vyA3NDSi3NsRAHxEBJg!/delta/base64xml/L0lJSk03dWlDU1lKSi9vQXd3QUFNWWdBQ0VJUWhDRUVJaEZLQS EvNEZHZ2RZbktKMEZSb1hmckNIZGgvN18wXzE4TC8zNS9zYS5n ZXRCaWI!?selectedTab=pair_search&isSubmitted=isSubmitted&dosnum=11551601&public_selectedSearchOption=
the case number is 11551601

Also, you can read the full patent application detailing the process at
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=20070092295&OS=20070092295&RS=20070092295

Note: If you go to the link it may give you a pass phrase screen first. After entering in the two words and submitting, just re-paste the link and it will appear.

In looking over the patent process, the part about changing the frequency for each of the cmyk color separation layers is a long used process in the printing industry and is in no way new.

[Dan Starr]

It seems to me that one very important question is missing from this discussion. How long does it take to prepare your image for this process? Seems to me that might be why it takes 3 days of training.

[Rodne Gold]

I see no announcements or further examples of this process by those that have bought into it on any laser boards? No new success stories or case studies , real world projects etc?
The silence on this seems deafening!!

[Jack Harper]

I can,t speak for how the company actually does this process. However, from the position of time to CMYK separate a file and change its angle and dot size, this takes just a a few minutes. Of course you could just as easily change the dot size slightly by adjusting your laser focus.

[Dan Hintz]

Did anyone see a booth by Atomic Art at ARA this year?

I ask because I noticed their utility patent was issued a non-final rejection in December. Of course, we don't have access to the grounds their claim was denied upon, but I'd be interested to know if it was due to lack of novelty. I wonder if they will modify their claims and attempt a refile...

[Roy Brewer]

Did anyone see a booth by Atomic Art at ARA this year?Dan,

Yes, they were there. They've terminated their exclusive agreement with Vytec and turned marketing over to Louie Alvarez.

[Rodne Gold]

Sounds real messy to me - all the vapourware and the promises of this being the next best thing to sliced bread in the laser world but I dont see any results or much mention of any success stories or of ppl making bushel loads of money out of this....

[Dan Hintz]

Sounds real messy to me - all the vapourware and the promises of this being the next best thing to sliced bread in the laser world but I dont see any results or much mention of any success stories or of ppl making bushel loads of money out of this....
Well, this is what happens when you try to push a product/service to market when it's not ready for prime time (I'm guilty of it myself from time to time). the idea had/has merit, but the execution was seriously flawed:
1) Any patents possible remained on shaky ground (and as we now see, even shakier after being rejected!).
2) Management was not personable, as we saw with the first post from the company owner (Thom), and there were no friendly salespeople to act as a buffer.
3) Information about the process was (is?) being regarded as a state secret, even though there was little that was novel or unique to the process (color separation has been going on for countless years in the printing industry, and I see no use of their "changing wavelengths" claim since pre-existing, off-the-shelf machines are used)
4) Marketing was hyping the process up over a long period of time with nothing practical to show for it, leading to annoyed and disillusioned potential customers.
5) The business organization (territories?) was completely flawed as there would be no protection to buy-ins from outside competitors. No protection from internet sales across territorial boundaries? Refusal to train more than one person per territory was seriously considered a proper solution to prevention of multiple competitors in a territory? To even consider such a plan would work beyond the boardroom tells me a lot about the lack of forethought put into the plan.

Meh... the company (and its technique) may still come to fruition as a viable business, but certainly not in any shape or form previously mentioned.

[Martin Boekers]

If working with putting full color on ceramic and glass intrests you , check out this website;

http://www.enduring-images.com/

It's a kiln fired process, that is permanent light stable!
you use a laser printer with a specialized toner cartridge.

It's a pretty slik process!

The toners not cheap but it is a way to permanatly fuse a color image to ceramic and glass.

Prices have dropped dramatically, but it is still about $15k plus a kiln to get set up.


Marty

[Paul Lee]

I understand the Atomic Art process to be a multi layer process. If the envraving time is now 50 minutes for a 12 x 12 tile. Is that for each color layer? If there are four seperations to get the finished tile then that would be 12.5 minutes per layer. The laser I use won't move that fast even at the lowest dpi.

I can see 50 minutes for each color on a full image tile. Now we are talking about 200 minutes per tile. Just thought I would add another question for the mix of unknowns.

[Scott Shepherd]

What I find interesting about this thread, since it's been a couple of years since it was started is just how many people were dead on right about this right out of the starting gate. Great job to everyone who saw red flags all over it and said so. Sure, it wasn't rocket science, but it's got to make you feel somewhat good that you didn't make this mistake.

[Dan Hintz]

I understand the Atomic Art process to be a multi layer process. If the envraving time is now 50 minutes for a 12 x 12 tile. Is that for each color layer? If there are four seperations to get the finished tile then that would be 12.5 minutes per layer. The laser I use won't move that fast even at the lowest dpi.

I can see 50 minutes for each color on a full image tile. Now we are talking about 200 minutes per tile. Just thought I would add another question for the mix of unknowns.
Paul,

Yep, multi-pass, and I'm with you on the speed issue. I know the Trotecs (doesn't Keith have one?) are about twice as fast on raster than most of our Epilog/ULS machines, but even then those numbers don't add up. My memory is shaky, at best, but I believe the last 6x6 granite tile I did at 250dpi and 100 speed took about 8.5 minutes. This means a 12x12 tile would be an average of 30 minutes per pass. Four passes would be a two hour tile, which doesn't include any prep time for each color solution, dry time, etc.

[Jack Harper]

I agree that this is cost prohibitive, especially when they want to limit to whom and were you can sell. On my Vytek it takes me 3 minutes to do a 12x12 granite tile, taking me to 12 minutes for the four passes. That may sound more reasonable but with the increased machine cost to reach this speed, it is still cost prohibitive.

[AL Ursich]

I have had good luck Color Sublimating Ceramic Tiles with Pictures. I believe you could mix Sublimation and Laser work on the same tile for an interesting project.

AL

[onur cakir]

I have had good luck Color Sublimating Ceramic Tiles with Pictures. I believe you could mix Sublimation and Laser work on the same tile for an interesting project.

AL

I think some kind of things are much more efficent "without" laser like sublimation or any other new direct ceramic printers with kiln.

But as we all paid a fortune to lasers we all deny this fact.

So if we want color on tile i think at this point laser ( thermark like products ) are not the answer.

[Martin Boekers]

Just imagine the discussions for a four color, four pass laser photo.:eek:

We have issues all the time about just doing a black and white photo!

Imagine making the seperations then re coating and registrating a tile four times!

I agree there may be a niche market out there, but to master this and provide it at such a high cost I think I pass at this point.

Four color laser (printer) to ceramics interests me more, that market would not only provide architects, the hospitality industry but also headstones and monument territories.

I mentioned a supplier for this process earlier in this post. Check it out just to see where technologies are headed.

In the past I have dealt with restaurant suppliers and for them to make a sample they have to do a screen process (expensive!).

This technology (laser printer) really opens doors esp. in the headstone and monument business, as the process uses mineral colors and is very sunlight resistant.

It gets difficult to keep up with all this changing technologies!


Marty

[Rodne Gold]

This is a classic case of everything being a nail when all you have is a hammer.

[Dan Hintz]

I'm not a fan of how they have their FAQ page worded... it's a listing of "myths", but in actuality a number of items they have listed as false were actually true at one time in the process. The fact that they have changed their mind on how business should be conducted does not make it a myth. Contracts were signed, business decisions were made, and then they try to make it look like they had the customer's needs in mind when those contracts expired... in reality, the product didn't take off as quickly as they had hoped, in part due to the decisions and contracts they originally agreed to, which is most likely the leading cause for those contracts expiring. Maybe it's just me, but trying to put such a spin on things leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

At the very least, someone with proper grammar and a more poetic sense of verbiage needs to step in. I read those pages and still feel like it's a Mickey Mouse* operation. At least the website is more inviting visually, but when I read what's written I get the sense it's someone clueless about real marketing/advertising who hired a decent web designer and graphic artist.

As always, this is strictly my opinion given past details.


* Mickey Mouse is a trademark of the Disney Corporation and is not affiliated in any form with the above posting or author. :D

[Steve Clarkson]

Hmmmmm......a $300 retail price tag for a 12"x12" marble tile in color.......Now, if I can sell 10 per week.......

[Tom Ravenscroft]

I have read this thread with interest and during my search on the net, I see there are a number of companies offering full colour mural tiles which have been fired in a kiln.

I have hunted for information on the technolgy and have looked for a supplier of equipment or materials, but have had no luck.

Can someone please point me in the right direction.

Thanks

Tom

[Dan Hintz]

Which technology are you looking for information on? Almost every type of coloring listed has a link to a company with materials...

[Tom Ravenscroft]

Hi Dan

It would appear there is a process whereby decals are printed on a laser printer and then transfred to ceramic tiles.

The tiles are then fired to +-700deg C

I am trying to get an idea of the cost of the equiment and find a supplier as well.

Also can anyone tell me how a tile done using dye sublimation, where you simply do the heat ransfer in a heat press, will compare to a tile that has been through a process where it is fired to 700deg C.

I would think the latter would be more durable for outdoor use, but is it necessay for tiles that are used

indoors on walls
indoors on floors
in wet areas such as splash back, bathrooms or in a shower
Thanks

Tom

[AL Ursich]

I do Sublimated Tiles and as you mentioned, print a transfer and in a heat press around 400 deg F the pores of the tile coating open and the ink goes from a solid to a gas being held tight to the tile transfer to the tile then the removal of the heat and the pores slam shut and lock in the coating.

SO Sublimation = solid to gas to solid without becoming a liquid.

I agree that a tile done with Sublimation and one done in a kiln in a side by side test will show the weakness of the Sublimation. The Kiln would be the way to go in Sunlight.

AL

[Tom Ravenscroft]

Thanks Al

The sublimation process is far cheaper so I am going to give it a go.

I was going to purchase a simple 380mm x 380mm press off E-bay that would typically be used for T-Shirts. It would appear you also have to use a silicon rubber mat to ensure the curved edges are also coloured.

Do you have any more information or tips for me?

Thanks

Tom

[AL Ursich]

A good press is good to get, be sure the T Shirt Press can expand to the thickness of a tile and mat.

Be sure the tiles are at room temp or sit on top of the press to slightly warm them. I even had problems with FRP tags in my shop being cold and not transferring well.

The ink you pick is important... If you wanted to play before investing in a printer and Ink anyone of us could print transfers for you to play.

Always place the transfer on top of the heat press to dry the moisture in the paper. If you get moisture you get ghosting or blurry areas in the center of your tile image.

Good Luck,

AL

[Andy Joe]

Ok, i have the atomic art package. A couple of things. U do not get a license to sell in a certian area, nor are you restricted to where u sell. I didnt have to go to their shop to recive training, i got a cd, and internet site i could visit for training. I recived several continers of powder and ink, that where mixed together with denatured alcholo, which evaporates quikly living the dye/powder mixed, so you have to add alcholo to it alot. U thing the mixture out and spray it through a ventura air brush over the tile. I have a Kern 150hse table. The top of the table is open and covered in papper to keep a vacum. All i do to realign after washing is tape down a rail around two sides of the tile and but it up to rail each time i go to realign. I have had no problems with that so far. You can tell they are still working to develop the customer service side of the product but they have tried as hard as they can to help me with all questions. The main problem is it is not as simple as just loading a picture, seperating the pic to cmyk, and then running. Its alot like glazing and u need to change intensity of colors, figure out what order they should run in, and the ink itself is very picky when it comes to applying to to the tile. Once u figure out what settings to run each color at they basically stay the same. Once in a while i adjust up or down in power by 2 or so but ussally its just adjusting the pic itself. I have acomplished one pic so far that looks just like whats on the screen so it is dificult to acomplish, this could be from my lack of experince in the rasther world, or with airbrushes. Also the focal height seems to be an issue. I wasnt able to run with their recomended focal height and had to adjust it on my own. Also i run at full speed, meaning a 12x12 tile takes me about 10 mins each coat. White tiles work the best and keep the shine better, i still coat with a clear after lasering anyways. I have been discouraged i havent gotten better results yet, but it is a workable process that isnt as expensive as we were lead to belive at first. I havent even used a quarter of my product yet, and i have run probally 50 tiles so far trying to get processes right. Any questions or advice please comment

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Andy;
Thanks for the info on the process. Not to be rude, but why bother??
It will take an awful lot of facts and figures to convince me there is even a minor market for this product. How many of the 50 did you sell, for what price, and what was your time/material investment for one on average?
Thanks
Best regards;
George
LaserArts

[Brian Jones FL]

after reading this i'm puzzled why it's something anyone would want to patent. Thermark makes the colors, corel photo paint can generate the cmyk separations.. laser each separation with a different thermark color and away you go. Why's that patentable? CMYK printing has been around for a loooong time, same beast different ink.

I did some really fast goofing around with the concept and came up with something really reasonably close to the sample pics i've seen in this thread, wasn't that hard. The key was really just figuring out the exact amount of power necessary to essentially 'set' each layer and then blast them to melt all the colors at once with the final pass.

[John Barton]

I couldn't read the whole thread so maybe this has already been answered. Is this essentially what a color laser printer does on paper? Our laser printer uses four toner cartridges, cyan, yellow, magenta, and black. It's got to be doing something similar to this automagically thanks to the super engineers at HP.

A few years ago I came across a website that sold toner that you brushed onto the lasered image and essentially baked it in using the laser. Isn't this sort of the same thing?

If so then I can fully understand the need to practice like crazy to get the settings right for each machine, each substrate, each color, etc... I would go nuts trying to keep up with all the proper settings. I can barely remember the setting for leather and wood even with them taped to the computer. :-)

Sorry been gone a while.

John