house heating

[Gabriele Piccini]

Hi All,
I know you ( I mean Americans) have arrived to have installed the 1000.000 geothermal heat pump for house heating.
Is there anyone who has this one and has an opinion good bad about it?

Many cheers,
Gabriele

[Brian Elfert]

Huh?

Here in America, at least in Minnesota, a geothermal system costs at least $10,000 more than a regular system with the loops.

I have no idea where you could find a geothermal heat pump for $1000. I haven't found one.

Brian Elfert

[Al Willits]

Geo works if the ground water is warm enough, like Brian says, here in Minn the ground water can be only a few degree's above freezing which means you won't get much heat out of it, not really cost effective.
Not sure of the weather where your at, but I believe its a bit warmer and Geo might indeed work well.
I think I'd Goggle geothermal and your country and see what ya find.

A lot is dependent on what energy costs are, if electricity is cheaper than Nat or propane gas, using ground water might be a cheaper alternative.

Al

[Gabriele Piccini]

Hi Al,
I must say I'm nearing to this system now and one of the few things I learned is that underneath our feet the temperature is constant during all the course of the year and it's about 10/12 °C. This tempereture is ideal for heat pump which can create a fluid at max 65°C. I know, I know it's a very expensive system but for me when I pay 2700 €/year of GPL it could be an alternative system to which to see. The recovery could be on 4/7 years (they're saying)

[Paul Turner]

I hear many good about geothermal, and hope to install one in my home. Installation costs are high, operation costs are low.

[Al Willits]

4 to 7 years would be a good return on something like that, sounds like your headed in the right direction, good luck
Al

[David G Baker]

Geothermal is a very efficient way to heat and cool a building. The up front cost can be as much as $20,000 depending which type of system you install. I have been considering geothermal using the underground loop system that uses plastic tubing and an antifreeze type solution. I live in Mid Michigan where the Winters can get pretty cold and the Summers can get quite hot and humid. The thing that has put the system on hold is the home that I purchased about 5 years ago has an Amana very high efficiency natural gas furnace that is almost new. If I am still living in the same home when the furnace goes bad I will go the geothermal route.
The tubing will go in the ground in a loop in trenches at an approximate depth of 8 feet where the temperature is a constant 55 degrees f year round.
The things that concern me most is making sure that the installer knows what he is doing and that the equipment has been proved beyond any doubt to be very well made with a long life expectancy.
There are volumes of information on the Internet about different systems. Check out some of the college sites that have done extensive research on the system pros and cons.
David B

[Al Willits]

"""""
Geothermal is a very efficient way to heat and cool a building
"""""""

Bit more accurate might be that Geo can be a efficient way.
Lot depends on the cost of energy, if Nat gas or Propane is cheaper than Electricity, hard to justify Geo.
Same goes for Geo and outside temps, not being in a moderate climate like our poster from Mich :D our ground water temp will be close to 40 during this time of the year, not much heat can be taken out efficiently at them temps.

I'd advise someone to do the math before jumping on the Geo bandwagon, works for some, not so for others, lot of variables involved.
Al

[Gabriele Piccini]

.. Lot depends on the cost of energy, if Nat gas or Propane is cheaper than Electricity, hard to justify Geo.
Al

OK Al, but gas or propane should be more and more cheaper than energy. Heat pump gets a quantity of energy which is four time that absorbed from the electric line.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

If the time amortization would be how they're saying, after few years you'll be in active.

[Al Willits]

"""""""""
OK Al, but gas or propane should be more and more cheaper than energy. Heat pump gets a quantity of energy which is four time that absorbed from the electric line.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
""""""""

Gabriele, my expertise is in Nat Gas, I work for a Nat gas supplier here in Minnesota, I have some but limited knowledge in electrical supply and efficiencies so I can't help will what appears to be a line loss question.

Maybe this will help, heating and cooling units are rated in btu's 12,000 btu's equal one ton of refrigeration, and 100,000 btu's are one therm.
I'm assuming their rated the same on your side of the ocean.

Lets say it takes a furnace with 150,000 btu's to heat your house, if Nat gas is a dollar a therm, it would take $1.50 for a hours worth of heat.
Lets say your Geo unit can produce a therm of heat for $.75 a therm, that would mean it would take $1.12 for a hours worth of heat.

On this information the Geo would be cheaper to use.
If it took $1.75 for a them of Geo heat, it'd be more costly to use Geo.

Any of this make sense?
I may not be explaining it well.
Its my understanding that where Geo falls short, is in cold climates, where the heating cycle costs more to run than a gas furnace.
That's why they are so popular is warmer climates.

Hopefully this was what you were asking, if not, just disregard..:)

Al

[Lee Schierer]

I've been heating my home with a geothermal heat pump for over 20 years. The temperature last night was 5 degrees and the system cycled on and off all night. My system uses two wells and the water table for the heat source. I pull water out of one well extract the heat and put the water back in a second well 100 feet from the first. I've had no problems with my unit. It is clean quiet and energy efficient. My only utility bill is electric and we pay just over $100 per month. We heat 2200 square feet of house. We also cook, heat our water (convential hot water heater) and dry our clothes with electric. The house is 68 degrees day and night, though we do keep the bedrooms, basement and my shop cooler (60).

My system was made by TETCO and is a 50K btu unit. I do not have A/C

Repairs have consisted of one valve repalcement and one water pump replacement in the 20+ years. We've only used the back up resistance heaters once or twice after power failures to raise the temperature in the house more quickly.

Lee

[Ken Garlock]

When we built, I had a 5 ton Water Furnace (http://www.waterfurnace.com/forms/form_savingscalculator.aspx?section=residential&page=calculator)brand geothermal system installed. Install cost of it was not singled out since we were installing complete HVAC. I can go back and find out, but it was never an issue.

There are several ways to get the geothermal energy out of the ground. Here in Texas, the ground says warm the year around, and never freezes more than 2-4 inches. A geo system needs a ground consistent temperature, in N. Texas that temp is around 60 degrees, and is found at a depth of 300 ft. The general rule is approximately 300 ft of under ground piping for each ton of compressor. As I recall, I have 4 wells 300 ft deep, each with a loop of black plastic pipe. The wells are balanced in a manifold system.

When the compressor is running, there are two centrifugal pumps that move the water through the well system, one pushing and one pulling. The difference between the pushing(into the well) and the pulling(out of the well) is about 6 degrees year around. Our home is about 3300 sqft with 10 ft bedrooms ceilings and cathedral ceilings in the rest of the house. We have NO problems keeping the house at 73 in the summer, and 68 in the winter.

The Water Furnace site has a comparison calculator for natural gas furnace versus geothermal. I ran a test case through for Minneapolis MN using $1.75/mcf and $0.16/kwh. I do not know what weather parameters were used.

Results:
High Efficiency gas heating/cooling - $3,937
Geothermal - $2,681
Potential savings - $1,276

Foot note: "Due to variations in house design, equipment efficiency, fuel costs, and weather, your actual savings will vary."

Finally, we have had zero problems with the Water Furnace unit. However, it is attached to a Trane brand evaporator that has had several problems including a new expansion valve and a complete heat exchanger, all under warranty. Don't believe the ad that Trane equipment runs like a Train.

[Al Willits]

Ken, if you could save over a grand a year in your heating costs here in Minn, you'd see thousands of them, not so.
Old saying, Figures never lie, but liars sometime figure.
One much figure total cost and if that's done I'll bet you see different cost savings overall.

Don't get me wrong, Geo has its place and can save money in the right circumstances, Minn is not one of them though.
Al

[Gabriele Piccini]

Hi Lee,
what did you say? it's true you have another meter there then here:rolleyes: ..
Do I understand well? You're heating 2200 square feet of house which could be equivalent to about 2200*0.3=660 squared meters. WOW:eek:

Ken, and you're heating 6600*0.3=1980 mq ? Is it true?
If it is, RE-WOW !!

Here, such houses couldn't be affordable. One person should work a life to heat own house.:rolleyes: Natural gas or propane are very expensive, and the cost rises every month.
I have an house of 200 mq, and the cost for heating is considerable (for me, at least). It's for this reason I'm informing about geothermal heating with heat pump.
Reading here there are few or none great problem ( I think to have understood such way..if my English language isn't rusted ) is good for me.

Many thanks to everyone for advices.

[Lee Schierer]

Our Erie County Library (Blasco Memorial) uses geothermal heat and a/c year round. I don't know how much it cost to install or operate, but the building has always been warm in ths winter and cool in the summer and it is several hundred thousand square feet.

[Chad Pater]

Ken, if you could save over a grand a year in your heating costs here in Minn, you'd see thousands of them, not so.
Old saying, Figures never lie, but liars sometime figure.
One much figure total cost and if that's done I'll bet you see different cost savings overall.

Don't get me wrong, Geo has its place and can save money in the right circumstances, Minn is not one of them though.
Al

You will notice Al that is it heating and cooling. I have 3 different friends in southern Minnesota that put them in and have saved over 100 bucks a months. We can get electricity for them at .05 ...so obviously that helps, but don't say it can't be done in Minnesota because it is being done here all the time.

[Bryan Berguson]

Hello all! I live in North Central Pennsylvania and I've had GeoThermal installed for about 10 years now. My wife and I originally built a garage with a 720 sq ft apartment above it that we heated and cooled with a 2 ton GT unit. At the time, we were anticipating a 2000 sqft house to be heated with the same loop field so we drilled 6 150 ft bore holes. Our drilling costs were $3 per foot and since our well driller knew he was going to drill at least 950 ft, he drilled our water well for the same price. Normal drilling price at the time was 8-9 per foot so with the 400 ft water well at 3 per foot made the GT holes basically free.

After living in the apt. for about 2 years we went ahead the house plans and put GT in that too. A 4 ton unit for the upstairs and 2 ton unit for the infloor basement heat. The house is 2000 sq ft main floor and basement with 10 ft ceilings on both levels. I keep the basement at about 65 and the main level 71 in the winter. Summer I turn off the basement and we keep the upstairs about 75-76 in AC mode. We also keep the apt. at about 60 in the winter (my finishing room for wood projects) and 75 in the summer. I'm heating 4700 sq ft total but even more than that if you consider the ceiling height. I also "dump" some heat in the garage with 2 registers.

My electric bills average $181 per month at about $.085 per kwh and about $7 bucks cost of service.

Water temps start about 45 and will drop down to the low 30s by the end of the heating season. Freeze stat won't kick on until the temp hits 15. My electric backup heat that is installed in the GT unit never comes on, even when the water gets down to the low 30s. My units (Command Aire by Trane) are rated at about 3.3 COP which means basically, for every btu you put into (electric wise) you get 3.3 back out. That's 330% efficient for you 90% guys. :) And, this is on the low side of things when compared to the 5 COP that the new Water Furnaces have.

If I were building another house, I wouldn't consider any other form of heating system. Geo Thermal is the way to go.

Bryan

Disclaimer. I work for an electric cooperative. If my only goal was to sell kwh's to our members, I would encourage them all to install cheap, electric baseboard heat. I absolutely do not do that. I encourage members to look into GT and we will help them size, design and install the system they purchase. We don't sell any GT products but we will help them find the best units, price and installer.

[Bryan Berguson]

Our Erie County Library (Blasco Memorial) uses geothermal heat and a/c year round. I don't know how much it cost to install or operate, but the building has always been warm in ths winter and cool in the summer and it is several hundred thousand square feet.

That reminds me... There is a Comfort Inn in Wysox PA that has GeoThermal. I think that was one of the most comfortable rooms I've ever stayed in. GT unit was in a closet in the room and I couldn't hear it run at all. Just set the temperature and be comfortable. Very nice!

Bryan

[Al Willits]

If you read all my posts I've also said that it depends on energy costs, ya there are a few units here in Minn, but damn few, our studies show that well over 90% of the populace can't make Geo work because of elect cost for both heating and cooling, I'd say Geo doesn't work here, if only a few can make it work.
Consider the cost and the fact compressor life is less than 20 years on a dedicated A/C unit, and even shorter with Geo or heat pump system, they are not feasible for the vast majority of Minnesotans, I still stand by what I say.
Also I believe I didn't say you can't put them in here, its just not feasible, and I go back to don't just take saving per month, include maintenance and repair, these system are expensive to do internal repairs on.

So I still say, if your thinking of installing one, look at all the costs, it may or may not be the deal some think it is.

Al

[Gabriele Piccini]

Hi Lee,
what did you say? it's true you have another meter there then here:rolleyes: ..
Do I understand well? You're heating 2200 square feet of house which could be equivalent to about 2200*0.3=660 squared meters. WOW:eek:

Ken, and you're heating 6600*0.3=1980 mq ? Is it true?
If it is, RE-WOW !!

Here, such houses couldn't be affordable. One person should work a life to heat own house.:rolleyes: Natural gas or propane are very expensive, and the cost rises every month.
I have an house of 200 mq, and the cost for heating is considerable (for me, at least). It's for this reason I'm informing about geothermal heating with heat pump.
Reading here there are few or none great problem ( I think to have understood such way..if my English language isn't rusted ) is good for me.

Many thanks to everyone for advices.

ehmm. ehmmm. it could be been the awake nights because child 1.5 years old didn't sleep.. I correct me.. one quare feet is 0.09 square meter then 200 and 600 square meters.

[Gabriele Piccini]

Hi Bryan,
for what I can understand you have GT with another type then the others who did write here back.. you haven't wells but holes in which pipes were inserted, have you?

You're heating 4700 sq ft which is equal to 4700*0.09=423 square meters for about $181=181*0.8=144 € per month.

Think, I have 200 square meters and I pay about 600 € per month :eek: . I need of 130 Kwh per day and I calculated that with current energy price and a total of 20.000€ for GT system ( I think to be few out street) I can recover in about 6/8 years. I don't know what I'll do but this good yours response make me feel that is the right direction.

[Lee Schierer]

If you read all my posts I've also said that it depends on energy costs, ya there are a few units here in Minn, but damn few, our studies show that well over 90% of the populace can't make Geo work because of elect cost for both heating and cooling, I'd say Geo doesn't work here, if only a few can make it work.
Consider the cost and the fact compressor life is less than 20 years on a dedicated A/C unit, and even shorter with Geo or heat pump system, they are not feasible for the vast majority of Minnesotans, I still stand by what I say.
Also I believe I didn't say you can't put them in here, its just not feasible, and I go back to don't just take saving per month, include maintenance and repair, these system are expensive to do internal repairs on.

So I still say, if your thinking of installing one, look at all the costs, it may or may not be the deal some think it is.

Al

Al, I was told by "Engineers" at PENELEC that I couldn't install one here either. They said it wouldn't work and wouldn't save me any money. :eek: They wanted me to use energy storage units and off peak power. My installation cost was about double that for a conventional heat system and I figure it paid back in about 5 years. We were heating 1500 sqft for $90 per month with base nbaord heaters and had to run around and turn the thermostats down at night and up in the morning. We kept the house at 65 and the bedrooms a 60 unless someone was sick or the kids were doing home work. Temperature variation was about 5 degrees. When we installed the heat system we added 500 sqft and still paid $90 per month and our temp varies about 2 degrees. We also installed a time of day rate meter and pay less for off peak power than on peak. Off peak power is about 65% of the time so we make out okay. We've been ahead of the game ever since.

You do have to have enough room for the ground loop or the injection wells for the system to work properly. Anywhere in the continental US the ground temp at 10-12 feet below the surface never changes so it should work anywhere except in areas where you encounter bedrock closer to the surface.

[Al Willits]

I'll repeat myself....

"So I still say, if your thinking of installing one, look at all the costs, it may or may not be the deal some think it is."

Key here is "may or may not"

If it works for you, more power to ya, trust me..I don't get a discount for the Nat gas I burn and if I could save a $100 a month I'd be on the bandwagon too, but Excell energy ain't cheap, not even close enough.

I would think if electric was cheap enough, you'd get one of these to work feasibly north of Alaska....but most can't get power cheap enough here in Minn.
I'd bet those here that have them are paying far less than the average homeowner in the state for power.

For those who using them and happy with them, great, but I'll still stand by that they aren't for everybody and I'd do more than a bit of research before I started drilling holes in my back yard.

Somehow its like I offended some of you, don't take it personal please, if it works for you, go fer it...:)

Al

[Chad Pater]

I'd bet those here that have them are paying far less than the average homeowner in the state for power.

For those who using them and happy with them, great, but I'll still stand by that they aren't for everybody and I'd do more than a bit of research before I started drilling holes in my back yard.

Somehow its like I offended some of you, don't take it personal please, if it works for you, go fer it...:)

Al

I reread my post and it doesn't come off right (sorry Al, I wasn't offended by the way:) ).
Just wanted to people to know that the rural electric provider Sioux Valley Energy (part of Touchstone Ele) offers Ele heat rates at below .05 cents and at those rates (not available to most) it can work. Your advice is differently sound, about penciling out all the cost including repairs....

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Lee,
what did you say? it's true you have another meter there then here:rolleyes: ..
Do I understand well? You're heating 2200 square feet of house which could be equivalent to about 2200*0.3=660 squared meters. WOW:eek:

Ken, and you're heating 6600*0.3=1980 mq ? Is it true?
If it is, RE-WOW !!

munch, munch
.
Hi Gabriele. I think you doubled up on my house size, it is just short of 3300 sqft. If my calculator is correct, that makes 306.58 square meters. I can only dream about a 1980 sq meter(21,312 sq ft)house.:eek:

Let's see how that works:

one Sq meter = 39.37X39.37=1549.99 Sq inches in a square meter.
one square foot = 144 square inches.
My house is 3300 sq ft, 3300X144 = 475200 sq in.
Square meters: 475200/1549.99 = 306.58 sq meters.

OR

39.37X39.37 = 1549.99 sq in.
1549.99/144 = 10.764 sq ft in a sq meter.
house is 3300 sqft, 3300/10.764 = 306.58 sq meters.

Also, Lee's 2200 sq ft would be 306.58(2/3) = 204.387 sq meters.

[Ken Garlock]

For those interested, My house is 100% electric as is the shop.

My total house electric bill for 2006 was $3258, the shop was $511.

For the house:
HIghest was July at $407, followed by August at $404.

Lowest was October at $181.

Average was $271.

I am a member of the local electric Co-op. Last year the cost was less than $0.12/KWH. This year as for the next 3 years it will be $0.12.

Yesterday I was talking to two people that live in Dallas, and use the local electric utility, TXU. One house was a 30 year old, and over 4000 sqft, and the highest bill was over $700. The other person's new house highest bill was over $600(don't know the sqft.)

[Bryan Berguson]

Hi Bryan,
for what I can understand you have GT with another type then the others who did write here back.. you haven't wells but holes in which pipes were inserted, have you?

You're heating 4700 sq ft which is equal to 4700*0.09=423 square meters for about $181=181*0.8=144 € per month.

Think, I have 200 square meters and I pay about 600 € per month :eek: . I need of 130 Kwh per day and I calculated that with current energy price and a total of 20.000€ for GT system ( I think to be few out street) I can recover in about 6/8 years. I don't know what I'll do but this good yours response make me feel that is the right direction.


No, I have the same type GT system as the others. They all use the ground as a heat sink but there different ways of creating that heat sink. When you say "drilling a well" to most people they automatically think of having to get water. When drilling holes for a closed loop GeoThermal, you don't need to hit water as the all the water stays within the pipes and is never exchanged with ground water. All you are really doing is drilling a hole in the ground and it doesn't matter if you hit water or not. The hole only needs to stay open long enough to put your pipe (usually called a uni-coil) in the hole and backfill. Ah heck, go to http://www.geoexchange.org/ and they will explain it alot better than I can, with pictures too.

Your loop costs are one of the biggest expenses and variables in the GT system. But, once those pipes are in the ground, they last a long, long time.

The best thing you can do is research and talk to people who have the systems.

Bryan

[Bryan Berguson]

If you read all my posts I've also said that it depends on energy costs, ya there are a few units here in Minn, but damn few, our studies show that well over 90% of the populace can't make Geo work because of elect cost for both heating and cooling, I'd say Geo doesn't work here, if only a few can make it work.
Consider the cost and the fact compressor life is less than 20 years on a dedicated A/C unit, and even shorter with Geo or heat pump system, they are not feasible for the vast majority of Minnesotans, I still stand by what I say.
Also I believe I didn't say you can't put them in here, its just not feasible, and I go back to don't just take saving per month, include maintenance and repair, these system are expensive to do internal repairs on.

So I still say, if your thinking of installing one, look at all the costs, it may or may not be the deal some think it is.

Al

Al,

What are your electric costs where you live? Maybe you put it in another post and I apologize for asking if you did.

Bryan

[Al Willits]

No prob Chad, the joys of the written word...:D

Bryan,
I think $0.150180 is what we pay for residential electricity per kw, there seems to be few taxes and surcharges in there also, but I didn't include them, and I'm going off the Excel website, if I can find our bill I'll check there too.
And no I hadn't before..Beasty takes care of all the bill paying, considering she's a personal banker, it works better if she does the bills.

Electrical bill is close to the gas bill in being confusing to figure total cost, to me anyway.
Comerical and farms have a different rate, along with who knows what else does too.
Al

[Gabriele Piccini]

Hi Bryan,
you and the others have been very useful.
Many thanks.

[Al Willits]

Sorry Gabriele, I got off subject a bit there, does sound like you've done your reseach and the pay back period is short enough to make Geo work for you, good luck.

Al

[Brian Elfert]

Geo works if the ground water is warm enough, like Brian says, here in Minn the ground water can be only a few degree's above freezing which means you won't get much heat out of it, not really cost effective.


I never said anything about Geothermal not working in Minnesota.

Geothermal will work just fine in Minnesota according to lots of folks I have talked with. I am contemplating building a new house and I most likely will use geothermal.

The local power utility charges 4.1 cents/KW for electricity for a geothermal system if there is backup heat. A number of geothermal dealers have said this is the most cost effective way to do geothermal.

Brian Elfert

[Brian Elfert]

Ken, if you could save over a grand a year in your heating costs here in Minn, you'd see thousands of them, not so.
Old saying, Figures never lie, but liars sometime figure.
One much figure total cost and if that's done I'll bet you see different cost savings overall.


I think the reasons people don't use geothermal is mostly the upfront cost and a lot of people simply don't know about geothermal. 10 years is a long payback for most folks.

Geothermal may not make much sense in Minnesota with Xcel as the electricity provider, but many co-ops offer special rates for geothermal. The co-ops buy most of their electricity so they want to reduce use.

I'm certainly going to do more research on Geothermal before jumping in. Most of the building sites I'm looking at do not have natural gas service and propane costs about double what natural gas costs. Heck, I did some calculations and straight electric heat can be as cheap per BTU as propane based on recent prices especially when you factor in propane is only 90% effiecent at best.

Brian Elfert

[Brian Elfert]

For those interested, My house is 100% electric as is the shop.

My total house electric bill for 2006 was $3258, the shop was $511.


I don't envy you there. If my energy bill was anywhere close to that much I might not be able to afford my house. My 2200 sq foot house in Minneapolis cost less than $1800 last year for both natural gas and electricity. I do have central A/C.

You're in Texas so I suppose a lot of money goes towards A/C.

Brian Elfert

[Al Willits]

Brian, if it works for you go for it.
With heating cooling costs what they are in this state, I doubt its because people are not aware of it, we get calls regularly asking about Geo and heat pumps.
If your on a farm or in such a situation that you can make the cost of this unit work for you, more power to ya, most here can't.

I apologize for not being clear enough, you can probably stick one of these damned things anywhere, and with the right circumstance, they'll not only work well, but be cheaper to run.
Key here is right circumstance.

My whole post was to advise people to look into energy costs and which unit may or may not work for them.
Not always is the latest, greatest new thing, good for everybody.

So if you live in Minn and have one that works, feel free to stop over and beat the living daylights out of me, let me know what kinda beverage ya like first, I'll be in the garage..er..shop, watching my gas furnace use up my life's savings....:)

Al...who thinks at -13 nothing is gonna be cheap to heat with..

[Brian Elfert]

[quote=Al Willits]Brian, if it works for you go for it.
With heating cooling costs what they are in this state, I doubt its because people are not aware of it, we get calls regularly asking about Geo and heat pumps.
If your on a farm or in such a situation that you can make the cost of this unit work for you, more power to ya, most here can't.
[quote]

I'm looking at 5 acre lots there should be enough enough room to trench the geo loops instead of drilling.

I will have a large heated/cooled garage and shop (2400 square feet) so that will help my payback. If I had natural gas service, geo might not be quite so attractive, but I can only get propane which is quite expensive.

Brian Elfert

[Al Willits]

So this mean I'm not gonna get my beating...:)

Sounds like a winner for you, we have customers that run electric heat because they get it cheaper than propane, pays to look into aternative energy sources.
Ya ever get to Mpls stop by, be interested in seeing how it goes, and say hi.
Al

[Brian Elfert]

So this mean I'm not gonna get my beating...:)

Sounds like a winner for you, we have customers that run electric heat because they get it cheaper than propane, pays to look into aternative energy sources.
Ya ever get to Mpls stop by, be interested in seeing how it goes, and say hi.
Al

I get to Minneapolis every day since I work in downtown Minneapolis.

I currently live in Shoreview and am looking at several lots out in Isanti. My commute times will at least double, but my total costs should decrease even if fuel goes to $4 a gallon. (I have a VW Golf TDI that gets around 40 MPG.)

Brian Elfert

[David G Baker]

So this mean I'm not gonna get my beating...:)

Sounds like a winner for you, we have customers that run electric heat because they get it cheaper than propane, pays to look into aternative energy sources.
Ya ever get to Mpls stop by, be interested in seeing how it goes, and say hi.
Al
Al,
A bunch of folks in my area of Mid Michigan purchased $3000 corn burner stoves. Last year corn was around $100 a ton for clean corn. This year the price is $150 a ton and will probably go higher due to the Ethanol demand. Guess they got ya one way or another. The only way to come out around even on the corn burner is if you grow your own corn, sell part of your crop at the new higher price and use the rest to heat with.
I think we should beat you just for the fun of it. :-)
David B

[Al Willits]

"""""""""
I think we should beat you just for the fun of it. :-)
David B
"""""""""
Been married almost 25 years, I've gotten to enjoy the beatings...:D :D

Anytime Brian, be nice to be a bit wamer though...:)

Al

[Martin Shupe]

A neighbor of mine has Geothermal, and his electric bill is about $100 cheaper than mine each month. He installed his when his house was built.

My question is, can geothermal be installed in an "old" (2000) home? Anyone know the problems associated with this? I think I have the room to drill the holes, just don't know what else would be involved.

In Texas, our highest electric bills are in July/August and December/January.

Good thread.

[Brian Elfert]

A neighbor of mine has Geothermal, and his electric bill is about $100 cheaper than mine each month. He installed his when his house was built.

My question is, can geothermal be installed in an "old" (2000) home? Anyone know the problems associated with this? I think I have the room to drill the holes, just don't know what else would be involved.


None of the geo folks I have talked to have said it can't be installed in existing homes. You might have a problem with space indoors for the equipment although some units are designed to sit outside like an air conditioner.

Brian Elfert

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Martin. Just think of a geo system as a heat pump system.

There are 3 major parts to replace.

1) your current AC evaporator must be replaced with one that will both heat and cool. The evaporator will hook into your existing HVAC by replacing the old one and furnace.

2) your current AC compressor/condenser will be replaced. The compressor has a coaxial heat exchanger instead of the condenser coil your present outside unit has. The new compressor can be hung in the attic of either the house or garage. You can visualize the coaxial heat exchanger by thinking of the coax cable going to your TV. The refrigerant flows through a copper coil (the center lead of the TV cable.) The water flows in a bigger copper coil that surrounds the the refrigerant (think the cable insulation is the water and the copper pipe is the outer shield of the TV cable.)

3) you will need multiple wells drilled in your yard. Mine is in the front yard. In our part of the country, you will need multiple wells that go at least 300 feet deep. The 300 feet is required to get to a ground temperature of 60 degrees the year around. The wells are brought together in a manifold so that each well shares an equal load. The piping for the wells is black PVC about 2" diameter. Our piping between the well field and the house is buried 4 ft and there are two or three plastic tape warning notices buried along the path to identify the pipes in case some fool with a backhoe gets busy. These pipes must run from the wells to the compressor. At some convenient point there will be two centrifugal pumps that cause the water in the pipes to circulate when the compressor is running.

I hope this helps and doesn't confuse you.:)