Need some TASER info

[Wolf Kiessling]

Oklahoma has a self defense act that allows one to carry a gun. I had considered going thru all the crap necessary to do this but decided I really don't want to carry a gun. The only handguns I really like are the revolvers, I have a Smith & Wesson .357 magnum with a 6 inch barrel, and I don't like the semi automatics at all. My revolver is way too big to carry and I mainly have that for home protection. So, I got thinking along the lines of a taser because in this day and age I think it is prudent to be prepared for a mugging or carjacking. I can no longer handle myself physically like I used to be able and I want some mechanical help that I really hope I would never have to use. Like the Toby Keith song goes, I ain't as good as I once was........

I don't like pepper sprays because they are too unreliable (some of them I know I can overcome myself) and I'm getting too old to rely on my flip out baton.

I did a Google search on tasers and found that there are at least three types available ranging from a thousand bucks down to three hundered. I really favor the $350 model, with the laser sight, mainly because I really don't want to spend more money than I have to.

Anyway, does anyone have any knowledge or practical experience with these devices? I would appreciate any input or insight that someone may be able to provide. Also, our local gun store doesn't sell them so if I do decide to buy one I will probably have to go the mail order route. A recommendation as to who is a reliable vendor would also be appreciated.

[Lee DeRaud]

All things considered, tasers (at least cheap concealable ones) are less reliable than pepper spray: one-shot-only and won't penetrate thick clothing. (I assume you're talking about the kind that shoot darts on wires: the contact-range "stun guns" are even more useless.)

Given your dislike of semiautos, it sounds like the right answer is a J-frame S&W or Taurus revolver.

[Al Willits]

fwiw, I looked at them too, and went back to my .38 special Taurus Ultralight (summer) or Starr P5 semi in .45acp (winter), just to many chances of the tazers not being able to defend against attackers.
Mental awareness and continued gun training work imho much better.

Consider that more and more attackers seem to be armed, I'd think you'd want to at least level the playing field, not to mention the total lack of respect for human life criminals seem to have now.
Also I realize the carry option isn't for everyone.
Al

[David G Baker]

The security guy in charge at the place where I once worked carried a very small 38 revolver in his back pocket. I would talk to him on a daily basis and never knew he was carrying. The gun was so small I was surprised it was a 38.
When I reach the point where I feel that I have to keep a gun on me all the time I think it would be time for me to move to a safer location if one exists any more.
I do not think a taser is a good option because more than likely it will be used on you, especially if you are not in good physical shape. If your heart is weak it could even kill you.
David B

[Wolf Kiessling]

All things considered, tasers (at least cheap concealable ones) are less reliable than pepper spray: one-shot-only and won't penetrate thick clothing. (I assume you're talking about the kind that shoot darts on wires: the contact-range "stun guns" are even more useless.)

Given your dislike of semiautos, it sounds like the right answer is a J-frame S&W or Taurus revolver.

Good info, Lee. The clothing penetration is one of the things that I wondered about. Regarding the contact stun guns, I had already discarded that idea. I would rather rely on my flip out baton than use one of those.

[Wolf Kiessling]

fwiw, I looked at them too, and went back to my .38 special Taurus Ultralight (summer) or Starr P5 semi in .45acp (winter), just to many chances of the tazers not being able to defend against attackers.
Mental awareness and continued gun training work imho much better.

Consider that more and more attackers seem to be armed, I'd think you'd want to at least level the playing field, not to mention the total lack of respect for human life criminals seem to have now.
Also I realize the carry option isn't for everyone.
Al

I'm not familiar with either weapon you mention, Al, but I'm wondering why the summer and winter option. Is it the size of the weapon? Meaning, a smaller "summer" weapon would be easier to conceal while wearing summer clothing while winter clothing may allow a heftier piece. Lee, like you, mentions the Taurus. I guess I may look into that piece. I may want to rethink obtaining a carry permit also.

Haven't had a positive reply re the taser as of yet...........

[Wolf Kiessling]

Al Willits.......

I noticed on your reply to my taser question that you are from Minneapolis. We are going to be coming thru there in March and are tentatively planning on taking a look at the Mall of America. Is this a worthwhile thing to do?

[Lee DeRaud]

I'm not familiar with either weapon you mention, Al, but I'm wondering why the summer and winter option. Is it the size of the weapon? Meaning, a smaller "summer" weapon would be easier to conceal while wearing summer clothing while winter clothing may allow a heftier piece. Lee, like you, mentions the Taurus. I guess I may look into that piece. I may want to rethink obtaining a carry permit also.The small (J-frame) Taurus revolvers are available in a number of finishes: blued, stainless, and alloy frame. The one Al mentions is (I think) titanium, same size but quite a bit lighter than the 'standard', might be the concealed hammer version also. S&W has similar options if that's your preference...like trying to choose between Jet and Delta.

[Cecil Arnold]

Back when I carried a badge (investigator) I preferred a S&W Mod. 60 that had been de-horned and tuned. I usually carried it stuck in my pants just off the right hip. Since it was stainless I didn't worry about corrosion in the Houston climate. Since most gunfights are at under 10 ft. and consist of 2.7 rounds fired, I always figured I had enough for two. If we were doing anything "heavy" I had a Colt Gold Cup .45 ACP in the trunk.

[Al Willits]

Yes, exactly, summer and winter.
Hard to hide a gun in the summer, winter here is a piece of cake though.

Minn is a shall carry state which means it doesn't have to be concealed, but most folks get a bit excitable if it's displayed, easier to just keep it concealed.
The Starr is a small framed copy of the 1911, holds 6 rounds, plus one in the chamber and is no longer made, Springfield or Kimber make probably a better carry .45, but this one is reliable and seems to fit my rather large hands well, considering the smaller size.

The Taurus is a aluminimed frame 5 shot revolver, black finished, I had the hammer spur taken off for concealment.
The S&W in .357 titainium would be my next choice if I hadn't already had the Taurus, big time spendy though.
Lighter the better though...usually

MOA?
Ya, bring lots of money and your walking shoes, lots to see.
Some of the resturants are nice and there's shops galore, not always the best deals in town, but there's some stuff you normally won't find in the average mall.
Gotta do it once anyway.
I don't go often, but when I do its with the wife and SIL's, we all walk for a bit, then they go off to do their shopping, and I sit with a beverage and watch the babes...er....sites... :)
There's also a pretty big water slide that just opened up across the freeway, from what I hear, its a great attraction for the kids.

Not sure where your from Wolf, but the temps in March here are a bit erradic, March usually encludes a major blizzard and a few days in the 60's, dress for both, mall is heated and lots of parking btw...:D
Have fun, but plan on a full day.
Anything else I can help with just ask.
Al

[Von Bickley]

I would look at the S&W Model 60....
S&W makes a super light-weight revolver in titanium, but it will hurt you to shoot it. :D

[Al Willits]

Model 60 is a nice gun, but non profession people who carry usually require being light as a major requirement, especially if your not wearing a suit or jacket all the time...imho
Shoot 38 specials though the Titanium S&W for practice, then load with the .357's for carry, under extreme duress I doubt you'd even notice the recoil of the magnum load and at close quarters, the trajectory difference between the two wouldn't matter.

This whole carry thing is kinda like Jet vs Delta (thanks Lee) and there are many different opinions on what is the best way to go.
Carry is a pretty serious thing to deal with, be serious about it, and if your not trained, get trained on carry, and when NOT to shoot.
Crying shame some feel they have to carry to be safe, but 10 minutes of news in the morning convince me anyway, its the safer thing to do, we all can't or won't move to a safer local...if there is one.

Al

[Wolf Kiessling]

Model 60 is a nice gun, but non profession people who carry usually require being light as a major requirement, especially if your not wearing a suit or jacket all the time...imho
Shoot 38 specials though the Titanium S&W for practice, then load with the .357's for carry, under extreme duress I doubt you'd even notice the recoil of the magnum load and at close quarters, the trajectory difference between the two wouldn't matter.

This whole carry thing is kinda like Jet vs Delta (thanks Lee) and there are many different opinions on what is the best way to go.
Carry is a pretty serious thing to deal with, be serious about it, and if your not trained, get trained on carry, and when NOT to shoot.
Crying shame some feel they have to carry to be safe, but 10 minutes of news in the morning convince me anyway, its the safer thing to do, we all can't or won't move to a safer local...if there is one.

Al

You bring up an interesting point, Al. When I practice shoot my big S&W .357, I use .38 special ammo. I do it because the ammo is generally cheaper and it's not as hard on me. However, I can't remember if I read this somewhere or if someone told me, but it seems to me I heard that you really shouldn't do this because this practice can be damaging to the weapon. Problem is, I can't remember the exact reason why. Something about a minuscule difference in cartrige size or something. Anybody know anything about this?

[Lee DeRaud]

You bring up an interesting point, Al. When I practice shoot my big S&W .357, I use .38 special ammo. I do it because the ammo is generally cheaper and it's not as hard on me. However, I can't remember if I read this somewhere or if someone told me, but it seems to me I heard that you really shouldn't do this because this practice can be damaging to the weapon. Problem is, I can't remember the exact reason why. Something about a minuscule difference in cartrige size or something. Anybody know anything about this?Urban legend.

The cartridge case on a .38 is shorter than a .357, so you can get some fouling at the front of the chambers...nothing a good cleaning won't cure.

[Jason Roehl]

Wolf, I'm glad you are considering a handgun over a taser. A good friend of mine has 2 sons who are cops. Both in large, metro areas. Both have stories of tasing guys 3,4 and 5 times with no effect because the perps were hopped up on drugs--the type of people you'd probably have to defend yourself against, were that situation to occur. Personally, I like my .45 Colt Commander for carry. It's been very reliable--I don't believe that in the 1000 or so rounds I've put through it that it has ever jammed. If I were to go smaller, I'd go with something like a .380 pocket pistol, double action only.

[Al Willits]

"""""""""
The cartridge case on a .38 is shorter than a .357, so you can get some fouling at the front of the chambers...nothing a good cleaning won't cure.
__________________
"""""""
I would agree, its possible some throat erosion on the front part of the cylinder as the 38 is a bit shorter, this is possibly where this comes from.
But you'd have to run a lot of rounds though it to see anything.
Probably more rounds than even a serious shooter would go though.
Nothing I would even worry about though.

I probably run thousands of .38 rounds though the S&W 686 shooting steel matches, and still used the gun with .357's for deer hunting, never had any problems.

imho the problem with practicing with a light gun and high power loads is the flinch that usually comes with it, using the reduced loads helps stop that...usually..:)

Al

[Marty Rose]

I always carry a small SW revolver,Chief model Light Weight. I have SNAKE SHOT in the cylinders. I tell Moma,that if she uses it aim for the face. It will not kill the bad guy,but he will NEVER ATTACK ANTONE EVER AGAIN!!!:) :) :)

[Wolf Kiessling]

"""""""""
The cartridge case on a .38 is shorter than a .357, so you can get some fouling at the front of the chambers...nothing a good cleaning won't cure.
__________________
"""""""
I would agree, its possible some throat erosion on the front part of the cylinder as the 38 is a bit shorter, this is possibly where this comes from.
But you'd have to run a lot of rounds though it to see anything.
Probably more rounds than even a serious shooter would go though.
Nothing I would even worry about though.

I probably run thousands of .38 rounds though the S&W 686 shooting steel matches, and still used the gun with .357's for deer hunting, never had any problems.

imho the problem with practicing with a light gun and high power loads is the flinch that usually comes with it, using the reduced loads helps stop that...usually..:)

Al


As I mentioned previously, I generally target shot my .357 with .38 ammo and I sure haven't seen anything wrong with the piece. Of course, I probably only shot between 500 and 1000 rounds with it.

One thing about a light weight .357 revolver (there seem to be several variations of this for sale), it seems to me that this thing would be murder to practice shoot. My late wife used to have a two shot derringer (don't remember the brand, probably some type of Saturday night special) of .38 special caliber. I shot that thing just one time and it scared the sh...t out of me. I mean, sheesh, I thought the thing blew up in my hand. I really didn't want to ever shoot it again, and I didn't. What I don't know if that thing was any smaller than these light weight S&W's and Taurus' that seem to be popular with the guys here. Any thoughts?...........

[Wolf Kiessling]

Wolf, I'm glad you are considering a handgun over a taser. A good friend of mine has 2 sons who are cops. Both in large, metro areas. Both have stories of tasing guys 3,4 and 5 times with no effect because the perps were hopped up on drugs--the type of people you'd probably have to defend yourself against, were that situation to occur. Personally, I like my .45 Colt Commander for carry. It's been very reliable--I don't believe that in the 1000 or so rounds I've put through it that it has ever jammed. If I were to go smaller, I'd go with something like a .380 pocket pistol, double action only.


Sheesh, what your friend's sons say is pretty telling. That pretty much decides for sure that I won't get a taser......

The main reason I like the revolvers over the semi-automatics is that I have never heard of a revolver jam. I have even thought about it and don't see how they could jam.

I've been looking at the S&W and Taurus web sites and see that both brands have steel, aluminum and titanium weapons available. Naturally, the titanium and aluminum are the lightest and light is of a great deal of interest to me. I am wondering if an aluminum piece would hold up. I know titanium would but that is really expensive and I'm not sure I would want to spend that kind of money. Also, anybody have any opinions on two brands of guns I keep hearing about all the time, H&K and Glock? You can probably tell by now that I don't know a great deal about guns.......

[Jeff Heil]

As a cop that carries a taser daily and having used it twice in contact mode, I am not impressed with the taser as a means of self defense. I have been OC sprayed 4 times (once was enough but each of the 3 instructor schools I attended required it) and being tased I would recommend OC over a taser.

Depending on your goal, if you want to stop a deadly threat, a handgun is the only real option. When cops use tasers it is just to cause a temporary disfunction so we can go hands on and take someone into custody, and typically 2 or 3 cops to one suspect. For self defense, OC would close the attackers eyes and give you distance to escape better than a taser in my opinion.

Our department buys ours from taser international, they are the only vendor I would consider. Our X26 models cost aqbout $900, plus $20 per cartridge. We buy the extended warranties as they are used 24/7 and subjected to all types of weather. They are small units, about the size of a little Glock, but the holsters are bulky and would be cumbersome to conceal.

Since everyone else is discussing their handgun preferences I have to stand up for my Sig 228 9mm, with +P+ hollow points. It's dropped more deer than most hunting rifles, but of course the deer were slowed down by impact with a car first.

[Al Willits]

I own the H&K USP model in .45, I think it is a better weapon than the Glock, but the Glock is quite popular, and a bit cheaper.
As to which is better for you, try to find a gun store/shooting range that rents pistols, shoot them both and see which one you like.

Both have smaller version that work well for carry.

I don't think I'd worry about how long either the Titanium or aluminum will last, most people won't come close to shooting out one of these guns.
Also if pistol shooting becomes something you do on a regular basis, chances are you'll look for a pistol a bit more suited for target practice.

Might also want to see if there's any USPSA or IDPA matches going on in your area, good way to learn familiarity with your pistol and have fun.

As long as I'm rambling...try to take some self defense classes on carry, there is imho a whole new mindset to carry.
Mental awareness, keeping out of troublesome locations, when you can and more importantly can not use deadly force, how to carry and with what, what to do if you have to pull the trigger, what loads you can and shouldn't use, list goes on.

Personally I live a different life style now that I carry, and for God's sake I hope I never have to use deadly force, but if I do, I will shoot to kill.
Using a round that just may PO a attacker, like bird shot or? is foolish imho.
So, for those considering carry, please be careful and get get as much training as you can, your life or financial well being may depend on it, remember, using deadly force will almost guarantee a legal battle.

Rant...off

Al...who thinks this is probably the most mellow gun post he's seen in awhile....:D

[Jason Roehl]

I don't mean to pick on you, Al, but I don't care much for the phrase, "shoot to kill". IMHO, there is no such thing. You shoot to stop the attack, no more, no less. If that is fatal, so be it. Center torso, high-probability shot, shoot until they stop or drop. Learning your local laws is good, but I'd rather be alive and in jail than legal and dead because I was too afraid of a lawsuit or criminal charge to shoot. And, yes, I have carried illegally into unsavory areas of this country (my permit wasn't good in those particular places).

BTW, I envy your USP .45...nice gun...I can't stand Glocks.

Jason

[Al Willits]

Jason your point is vaild, and but I may not have been clear enough, techinally you may shoot to stop a threat, to keep the laywers happy, but I've been taught you shoot to kill, not wound.
And that is what I meant by shoot to kill.
Al

ps...pick on me all ya want...I'm married and used to it...:)

[Jim Becker]

May I remind participants in this topic that the SMC audience includes minors and others who may not be comfortable with the discussion. Please remember who your total potential audience is. It may be a good idea to continue in-depth talk off-SMC via email or PM. I believe that Wolf's initial question was answered in the first few posts. I'll leave it open and "here" for now, but reserve the initiative to move the thread out. If that happens, it's only because of what I wrote in the first sentence of this post.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Jason Roehl]

Fair enough, Jim--no more "gory details" from me.

Al, I've been married a while too--I know what you mean! :D