Cyclone DC Question

[Steve Milito]

I a beginner and just setting up a shop. My first project is building shop cabinets. The dust gets so thick it's unbelievable. My wife suggested that I move DC to the next thing on the "need to have" list.

I've read over a bunch of Bill Pentz's site. Somewhere I read that both Grizzly and Oneida were going to incorporate his ideas in products. The newer Griz looks a lot like the Clear Vue. Which, if any, products incorporate his concepts? Can I trust their fan curves to be accurate?
Any issues witht the Clear Vue being made of plastic rather than metal?

Steve

[Jim Becker]

Dust collection is indeed an important function and critical "tool" in the shop. I'm a very satisfied Oneida customer and there are other good options, as you state, available today.

[Cecil Arnold]

Dust collection is indeed an important function and critical "tool" in the shop. I'm a very satisfied Oneida customer and there are other good options, as you state, available today.

Aw, come on Jim, lets get another DC free-for-all going.

Seriously, you need to check the search function for this information as opinions seem to be strong and can become somewhat heated. You will find folks here who think all three (Clear Vue, Oneida, and Griz) are fine equipment. The latest from Griz and Oneida all have some additions that may be inspired by Bill P.

Yes, you do need a DC.

[Steve Milito]

Aw, come on Jim, lets get another DC free-for-all going.

Seriously, you need to check the search function for this information as opinions seem to be strong and can become somewhat heated. You will find folks here who think all three (Clear Vue, Oneida, and Griz) are fine equipment. The latest from Griz and Oneida all have some additions that may be inspired by Bill P.

Yes, you do need a DC.

I did. That's why I tried to ask specific questions rather than the generic "Which DC is the best". :)

[Jim Becker]

Steve, folks speak highly of the ClearVue unit. While I prefer metal, I don't think the plastic is going to be an issue with a hobbiest. The advantage to the unit is that it lets you do more of the work in exchange for a lower cost point. If you have the time, that can be nice. If not, Onieda and Griz offer good units. I think that Oneida has a little edge in that's their only business, but I have not seen the Griz physically. The folks who have bought it seem to be happy. Whatever you choose, don't be afraid of buying "oversize"...the more air you can move, the better your dust collection will be. Stay away from marginal...or you'll be buying again.

[John Bailey]

Hi Steve,

Welcome to the Creek. You probably already know this is a great site. We pride ourselves in being the best woodworking site around.

As moderator, I'm going to try a little different tack (the direction of ship with respect to the trim of her sail), and suggest comity now before anything starts, so that our emotional tachs (as in tachometer) don't race too much so we may, indeed, exhibit tact. (a keen sense of what to do or say in order to maintain good relations with others, or, to avoid offense.)

All that being said, information on dust collection is very important. I think Steve has figured out this subject can cause passionate answers. Let's have a good and civil thread. And above all:


Don't be offensive, and
Don't take offense.


Thanks,

John

Oh, and by the way, again, welcome to the Creek Steve.

[Michael Gabbay]

Steve - I am by no means an expert on DC. I did however move from a Jet 1.5hp to a cyclone last Spring. After much research I decided that for me the best thing was to go with Oneida. They do a fare amount of testing and based on the independent tests that have been run the company is more conservative than most with their fan curves.

My guess is that all of the major manufacturers are going to be tested independently at some point by one of the magazines. Although that might not be the most independent or scientifically accurate they do provide a relative baseline to start with. From there, if you slightly overbuy on the impeller and hp you should be fine. Also, you will likely have more CFM & SP loss due to poor duct design and installation then based on a slightly off fan curve.

As far as Clearvue is concerned, I had the same question about the plastic. Although I am sure it is as tough as steel, it just did not sit well with me. Also, from what I've read it is more of a kit than Oneida or Grizzley. I spent about 3 days setting up my system. 2 + days was devoted to duct work. About half a day was setting up the cyclone and I took my time and worked alone.

my 2 cents.....

[Mike Spanbauer]

The best first step I can suggest is to make an accurate drawing of your existing shop (& tools) and indicate current tools and future tools (desired).

Do you have power considerations or can it be 110 or 220? Sounds like you're good w/a fixed system and fixed ducting (which I personally prefer). Realize that the ducting will run you a fair chunk of $$ so when considering a system and budget, remember that you can spend from 50-125% of the Collector's price on ducting alone (gates, high quality hose, and piping).

Basically, the rule is to ensure that you have adequate (this is the highly debateable portion) collection to your most demanding tool that resides the farthest from the DC. Drum sanders often carry this mantle if you possess one, or large stationary planers. Consider if you have the need to run multiple gates at once such as a TS w/ Overarm guard.

PVC is fine for ducting and won't blow you up. However, you will shock your boots off from a discharge if you're not careful ;)

I prefer metal DC's like as does Jim above. I too find my Oneida to perform extremely well (but, I made the decision to spend whatever it took and it was not cheap by any means).

DC is very important, but requires that you do your homework. Also, realize that advice is often given from a passionate viewpoint and can be volatile :) There is NO perfect answer for everyone, and each shops / individuals needs are going to be different.

Oh, and I also would recommend an ambient air cleaner too. not for health reasons as it is rarely effective at cleaning anything *while* you're in the shop, but it does a great job at keeping stuff off flat surfaces AND more importantly finished (or in process of being finished) projects.

Okay... didn't mean to get so long winded. Good luck :)

Mike

[Cecil Arnold]

Steve,

I bought the Clear Vue. My reasoning was that, as Mike said, I could trade labor for cost. What I got seems to be a good, functional DC, that gives results equal to or better than the 3 hp units offered by Griz and Oneida at the cost of the 2 hp units. I don't have (nor do many who post here) the test equipment to verify fan curves of the various units, but would ask someone in the know what the difference (and/or impact) is in 100 CFM at the fan when measured at the pick-up. While I would not accuse any of the named vendors of lying, I would expect them to test and report using the most favorable testing methods for their unit.

Other CV benefits are the ability to use ASTM 2729 PVC piping, the provided blast gates to fit, and the availability of branches, 45* and 22 1/2* elbows locally. In my area 2729 PVC is about $2 per ft. w/tax and the branches run in the $20 range. The other two named units use 7 & 8" trunk piping with smaller piping used for branches. This has the potential to slow the air stream and allow dust to fall out of the stream I have been told.

I don't see any reason you could not get a CV unit up and piped in 2-3 days, however if you chose to do the many additional things CV owners are prone to do it will take longer. I completely understand wanting to get the best bang for the buck, and time constraints that may be factors. I don't think you would regret any of the units you are considering.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I've owned an Oneida cyclone for many years, and couldn't be happier with it.

Being a technologist, I designed the duct system myself, using metal ducting, and it works as designed.

The cyclone does indeed meet it's specified fan curve, I performed the measurements after duct installtion to make sure that I had exactly what I designed. This certianly was not the case with offshore manufactured bag type collectors, I tested 3 different units and found that their CFM claims were optimistic by by at least 100%, one was 163% optimistic.

I wouldn't go with PVC duct, as I hate having a spark leap from the outside of the pipe, to my head as I get too close to it. (A friends shop, not mine.)

I also included two floor sweeps in the design which really helps when cleaning up left overs from hand tools.

Regards, Rod.

[D.McDonnel "Mac"]

...............included two floor sweeps in the design which really helps when cleaning up left overs from hand tools.


Like Ron I included a floor sweep and with out a doubt that is one of the smartest decisions I made. I too designed my own system and with Onidea's help (in the ducting layout tweeks and product reccomendations) I have a great system. I chose to lay out the $$ and spend time making sawdust. My system is mixed metal and pvc s&d below the floor of my shop.

Mac

[Jim Becker]

Floor sweeps have now been mentioned...so...note that they should only be used when a pre-separator (cyclone) is being used. Material picked up should not flow through the blower if you are using a floor sweep as any metal could impact the blower impeller and cause sparking. Never use them with a "bag DC" for that reason.

[JayStPeter]

I have an Oneida commercial system that pre-dates the Grizzly and Dust Gorilla systems by a little bit. If I was buying now, I would have a hard time choosing between the two.
I haven't seen them in person, but the filter on my system appears nicer than the ones on the Grizzly. But, there is a slight cost advantage and the Grizzly units might be good enough. Note the lack of personal "hands on" time with the Grizzly. Also, the DG units use slightly smaller, if not lower quality, filters than mine. That is also the only issue I see with the clearvue. The Oneida filters just seem nicer than the others. But, I'm sure they all work fine.
I sure would've liked to have all the lower cost options available when I bought mine. I could definitely overlook a slightly less nice filter for $500+.

[Steven Wilson]

I'm a satisfied Oneida customer and their duct design service was helpful, of course you need to bring some knowledge to the table for it to be real useful. There are many ways to skin the dust collection cat and no single approach works for all of your dust collection issues. You will need to use many approaches which depends a fair bit on what you're trying to collect dust from. Some rambling thoughts;

1) Collect dust at the source if at all possible.

2) Your lungs are dust collectors. If you can't keep the dust out of the air then you need to wear a respirator.

3) Air cleaners aren't bad but they do nothing to protect your lungs while dust is being produced. They can help clean up the air after the fact, but that only helps future activity. Heed number 2 above.

4) Your fixed DC is most useful when collecting from your stationary power tools and only if they have proper DC ports on them, many don't.

5) Hand held power tools (sanders, CS, router, plate jointer, etc) need to be accounted for in your dust collection planing. When I choose handheld power tools I consider their DC capabilites. For that reason I generally choose Festool. Regardless of brand I always use a decent vacum with my handheld powertools (Festool and Fein are good).

6) In spite of your best efforts some powertools produce lots of dust in some situations so wear a respirator. A couple of notorious examples are routers and miter saws.

7) You won't necessarily see fine dust, so don't assume your environment is clean just because you don't see a cloud. Large particles are less damaging to your lungs than small particles. When in doubt wear a respirator.

8) Chips aren't dust. If you want an enjoyable way to work without using a respirator use hand tools.

9) Good respirators are fairly comfortable. A cheap repirator won't be used so get something decent. I use two, a 3m (7000 series IIRC) half mask that I use for finishing or if I'm up close with MDF (i.e. routing an edge), and a full face shield respirator that I use for most other shop tasks that produce dust. I'm lucky in that the dust/chip collection on my tablesaw(minimax) and sanders (festool) is good enough that I don't need a respirator while using them. Previous tools weren't as good and a respirator was needed.

[Steve Milito]

Lot's of useful information here. Thanks.
My shop is 20 x 30. I built a closet for the DC and compressor, but it is in the back corner. The ceiling is 8'. I would need to run the tubing around the periphery of the shop if I use the closet. So the last drop, near the garage door, will be 50' from the DC. My handwaving analysis indicates that a 3HP Gz or On, or the CV should pull 800 CFM though 6" conduit with the expected turns and drops.
Am I on the right tract?

[Jack Diemer]

I'm a satisfied Oneida customer and their duct design service was helpful, of course you need to bring some knowledge to the table for it to be real useful. There are many ways to skin the dust collection cat and no single approach works for all of your dust collection issues. You will need to use many approaches which depends a fair bit on what you're trying to collect dust from. Some rambling thoughts;

1) Collect dust at the source if at all possible.

2) Your lungs are dust collectors. If you can't keep the dust out of the air then you need to wear a respirator.

3) Air cleaners aren't bad but they do nothing to protect your lungs while dust is being produced. They can help clean up the air after the fact, but that only helps future activity. Heed number 2 above.

4) Your fixed DC is most useful when collecting from your stationary power tools and only if they have proper DC ports on them, many don't.

5) Hand held power tools (sanders, CS, router, plate jointer, etc) need to be accounted for in your dust collection planing. When I choose handheld power tools I consider their DC capabilites. For that reason I generally choose Festool. Regardless of brand I always use a decent vacum with my handheld powertools (Festool and Fein are good).

6) In spite of your best efforts some powertools produce lots of dust in some situations so wear a respirator. A couple of notorious examples are routers and miter saws.

7) You won't necessarily see fine dust, so don't assume your environment is clean just because you don't see a cloud. Large particles are less damaging to your lungs than small particles. When in doubt wear a respirator.

8) Chips aren't dust. If you want an enjoyable way to work without using a respirator use hand tools.

9) Good respirators are fairly comfortable. A cheap repirator won't be used so get something decent. I use two, a 3m (7000 series IIRC) half mask that I use for finishing or if I'm up close with MDF (i.e. routing an edge), and a full face shield respirator that I use for most other shop tasks that produce dust. I'm lucky in that the dust/chip collection on my tablesaw(minimax) and sanders (festool) is good enough that I don't need a respirator while using them. Previous tools weren't as good and a respirator was needed.


Very well said, I can almost always find something to disagree with when someone gives their opinion on dust collection, but you articulated the important details very well. The only thing I might change is your last sentence, depending on what you cut you cut or sand (MDF or exotics), you should wear some type of mask. I would add one thing, 10. When doing woodworking, if you can smell the wood dust, then its probably not safe.

[Jim Becker]

I would need to run the tubing around the periphery of the shop if I use the closet.

Perimeter duct designs are generally considered the last choice for the reason you suggest...length. Most common is a diagonal run from a corner DC location with branching to locations where collection is needed. Careful planning of machine locations and "work triangles" will help keep the total ducting down, especially when you can share a major drop with two or more tools.

There is a very good free downloadable design document available at Oneida's site that discusses duct design considerations.

[Steve Milito]

Perimeter duct designs are generally considered the last choice for the reason you suggest...length. Most common is a diagonal run from a corner DC location with branching to locations where collection is needed. Careful planning of machine locations and "work triangles" will help keep the total ducting down, especially when you can share a major drop with two or more tools.

There is a very good free downloadable design document available at Oneida's site that discusses duct design considerations.

I know. There are two issues. One is I have a ceiling mounted rack that is somewhat in the way. The second is rather unique. My workshop is under my garage. The ceiling rests on a series of 20 ft I-beams. I drywalled the celing, except for one I-beam that bisects the shop, and I have a trolly and hoist attached so I can handle heavy material. I can back a pickup into the shop, roll the hoist over, and lift anything shy of a ton. Thus, I'd prefer to over spec the DC, and have the abilty to lift stuff.

[Steven Wilson]

If that's your limitation then you'll need to look at a 5hp or larger DC to get sufficient flow out to the end of the run.

[Steve Milito]

If that's your limitation then you'll need to look at a 5hp or larger DC to get sufficient flow out to the end of the run. That's what I thought, and what attracted me to the CV. Yet, I when compared fan curves on the Griz and On to the CV I couldn't find a big difference. The 5HP units from On and Griz are too tall for my shop. Maybe the closet isn't the best place. :(

[David Less]

Steve,

My opinion is get the biggest you can afford. With all of the static loss and filters getting plugged you will always loose alittle suction/CFM. My current shop is only 13 x 22 and my 5 hp clear vue works best with one machine running. If I get my varyance for my new shop (23 x 25) than I will consider Clear Vue's 15" impeller. You can never have enough CFM to get GOOD dust control.

Hope this helps

David

[Steven Wilson]

That's what I thought, and what attracted me to the CV. Yet, I when compared fan curves on the Griz and On to the CV I couldn't find a big difference. The 5HP units from On and Griz are too tall for my shop. Maybe the closet isn't the best place. :(

Well Steve, I don't know what machines your collecting from or the layout of your shop but here are some ideas that may be of use;

- Take a look at the layout of your machine's dust collection ports. You may be able to arrange your shop in such a way that the ports that need the most CFM are on one side of your shop.

- If you can't go up you may be able to go down. I'm not proposing that you bury DC pipe in your floor but you might be able to take a jack hammer to it, create a concrete lined trench, lay your DC pipe in the trench, and then cover the trench with plate steel. This would get a main trunkline across your shop, leave a smooth floor, and give you the ability to maintain your DC line without a big hassle.

- Who says you can only have 1 DC in your shop? You could install 2 DC units, say a 2HP and 3HP system. If the filter stack takes too much space you can run them horizontally along the ceiling. Yes you will loose some filter efficiency but it is doable.

- If you're willing to have less chip capacity you can use shorter bins under your cyclone. You can also split the output.

- Mount your cyclone outside and then bring the filter back inside; height might not be an issue then.

[Paul Wingert]

I've read over a bunch of Bill Pentz's site. Somewhere I read that both Grizzly and Oneida were going to incorporate his ideas in products. The newer Griz looks a lot like the Clear Vue. Which, if any, products incorporate his concepts? Can I trust their fan curves to be accurate?
Any issues witht the Clear Vue being made of plastic rather than metal?

Steve

I'm going through the same process. I think I'm going with the ClearVue.
Personally, I do not trust the manufacturers fan curves at all. According to Bill's site, they doctor up the test conditions to make the fan curves look better. [edit].

I'm not going to say that the other brands seem bad, but I'm more comfortable with ClearVue. I like the 5 HP fan, as well as Bill's endorsement that ClearVue does a good job picking up the invisible dust that is so hazardous to our health. Now the other manufacturers may do just as well, but I don't know.

I've read it takes roughly 2-3 hours to set up a ClearVue. I can live with that. I can't live with 80 hours to make my own cyclone. :)

[Jim Becker]

Paul, I don't think it's fair to say that the cyclone fan curves are "doctored", per se. A more accurate representation might be that the testing methodology and setup may be different between vendors--even within the constraints of best practices, there is likely enough leeway that a vendor can choose a more optimal result to assist with their marketing. Independent testing would be nice, but so far, that's not really happened outside of magazine testing by WOOD Magazine and maybe one or two others. That said, I've personally seen the design, engineering and testing environment that one of the vendors you mention has in-house and don't believe they overtly manipulate things. If anything, they have improved their products in recent years due to the increase in competition. Hopefully, everyone else is doing the same as dust collection is so very important for health and safety.

ClearVue is a nice options to have...as stated before, you have some skin in the game getting it all together, but a reduced cost as the balancing factor.

[Paul Wingert]

Actually, I forgot that I was using my real name here, so I had to edit out something in my previous post about a personal experience.

Jim, My guess is that some manufacturers are honest about their fan curves, and some doctor them. You're right, not all are dishonest.

[Dave Lewis]

I bought a Penn State a few years ago - less expensive, happy with performance, but after sale service was lacking.

It seems most Oneida owners are quite satisfied.

Don't forget the cost of ductwork, hose and fittings though.