What would you charge?

[Dave Falkenstein]

A client that I have done some work for in the past wants two knotty pine bookcases built in Southwestern or Craftsman style. Measuring approximately 36W X 36H X 12D with two adjustable shelves in each unit, material and supply cost is around $200, assuming knotty pine plywood with solid wood trim. Figuring labor, including finishing, at 4 to 5 times material, the estimate comes to $1000 to $1200. That seems like a lot of money to build two bookcases - at least to me it would be. I feel a bit silly quoting that much, but based on prior experience, the labor estimate method is pretty accurate. What would you charge?

[Gary Breckenridge]

This is always a problem for custom or hand made work. I know they could get it cheaper in mdf out of China.:o Some questions:

How will your bookcases be exceptional or unique?
Will the design be artistic?
What is the quality of the workmanship?
Would a better quality wood qustify the higher price?
What is your hourly rate?

Please post a pic and other info when this is finished.:cool:

[Mike Parzych]

Yeah....that's high, real high. How many hours would it take to make them?

You say the material times 4/5 has worked before, but what if they were being built in the same manner using $15 bf hardwood. The time to build them wouldn't vary much at all, but the price would. In something that simple I like to go through the build process in my mind, assigning a "time" for each process.

[Jim DeLaney]

Against the grain here, I'm figuring about ten 1 X 12's from HD, at $12.00 each, to build the whole thing out of solid wood, and a quart of orange shellac to finish it.

Total materials cost is about $125.00. Time to build ins Southwestern style - which is generally pretty crude - would be maybe 10~12 hours.

Somewhere around $500.00 ought to be in the ballpark...

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

My niece is still in college. She was getting about $500.00 a pop fopr her paintings (art major). Her teachers told her to stop giving her work away and start charging a meaningful sum.
Now she gets anywhere from $2 - 3 Gees a pop.

Take a look at the client's lifestyle and charge accordingly.

Porshe (new) ?
Denon Stereo equipment?
Million dollar condo or home?
Other hand made goodies?

Many of those folks want to pay lots. The rest may cry a bit but if they want custom hand work they end up paying.

[Greg Funk]

Since most people on this site are hobbyists and not professionals you will tend to get lowball quotes that undervalue your time and business expenses.
If you have a fully equipped shop and you are operating a business you need to charge a reasonable hourly rate for the business to be sustainable. That should include payment for your time as well as depreciation and amortization of your building and equipment, insurance etc. Depending on your location I would think an hourly rate of $75 to $100 and hour would be reasonable so your 4 to 5 times multiplier doesn't sound out of line.

Greg

[Lee Schierer]

Unless the bookcase is pretty complicated or quite large, I would say your estimate is high. A cabinet with drawers and doors might cost that much. I would say back your estimate down to 3 times the materail costs, unless there is a lot of detail work like crown mouldings or elaborate shelf support structure.

Sometimes for friends, I charge less than for people I may never see again. As others have said, custom work is custom work and you should expect to pay for what you get. 95% of the people in this wold have no idea how long it takes to make something nice from wood. Be prepared to say why your work is worth more than the pressed board stuff at K-mart or Wally world.

How bad do you want or need this job? Do you rreally want to do it or will it be a pain in the rear to get it done. Once you answer these questions your price will be easier to figure out.

[Marc Casebolt]

I agree with Greg, that your time and overhead must be considered in the price. If your client values the quality of a custom made piece, then they will understand that it will cost more than an off the shelf item. Allways charge enough to make a profit.

Marc

[Dennis Hatchett]

I'm not a pro but I've done plenty of commission work and much more work in trade with other trades. In my limited experience with people of means, they are not paying as much for the completed piece as they are paying for a personalized custom possession that was made just for them. That is what they value more than the value of the finished piece. Of course, they could get it cheaper from Ikea.(Ickea in my opinion). I do think you need to go the extra mile since the materials alone probably won't produce a wow response in this case. Perhaps a clever edge treatment or a simple inlay might be appropriate here.

People that have hired me don't really shop around because they want me to do it for them. Therefore they are willing to pay extra for my time, not for the finished piece. Of course, it's always well done and I always try to add some personal touches that they request or that I surprise them with. I get the sense sometimes that they feel a little like they crafted it themselves if they just simply gave me a sketch or dimensions.

I spend time explaining solid wood joinery techniques to people who seem to balk, and that almost always seems to draw the contrast with production furniture. Few people who've approached me have balked at a fair and profitable price.

[Dan Oliphant]

Dave, the bookcase you describe should not require more than 8/10 hours of actual labor. To determine your labor rate will include many factors. Are you paying rent for floor space? Utilities/supplies, maintenance etc. If you are working out of you home, then the variables are much less.
As a woodworker that does have a business, my labor costs have been defined as an hourly rate that includes all of the variables above. Each design will be detailed enough so that I can estimate how many hours will be required without shorting myself.
Based on the material cost you stated, my belief is that you are paying retail, those costs already have the suppliers overhead and profit included. If your going to mark the material up again, then you are taking advantage of your client.
In conclusion, not all clients are high end, most "regular" folks like nicely made furniture too, your pricing must be sensitive to what market you are trying to satisfy. If you are making art, then Mr. Funk's rate estimate might be reasonable.

[Greg Funk]

If you are making art, then Mr. Funk's rate estimate might be reasonable.

Have you had your car serviced lately? I don't know what they charge in California but in Vancouver it is not unusual to pay dealers $100+/hr for servicing. I don't consider an oil change artwork...

Greg

[Scott Vigder]

Have you had your car serviced lately? I don't know what they charge in California but in Vancouver it is not unusual to pay dealers $100+/hr for servicing. I don't consider an oil change artwork...

Greg
I would like to nominate this as the Observation Of The Year.

[Richard Keller]

I would like to nominate this as the Observation Of The Year.

I second that!!!

Richard

[Dave Falkenstein]

Thanks for your replies - they are helpful. A few points of clarification after reading the above. The material is knotty pine because that is what the client wants. I called Woodworkers Source locally for pricing on 1X12 knotty pine and knotty pine plywood. My figure of $200 is the average of those two material costs plus trim and supplies plus a small fudge factor. I doubt that Home Depot has ten 1X12's that are straight enough to use to make a bookcase!!! I typically charge clients $40 to $50 per hour for my time. I already have one hour in this job, just looking at it and getting pricing!!! The two bookcases will be cornered, and used as a base for a large flat panel TV at a 45 degree angle. I quoted $1000 and suggested the client look around at Mexican import stores to see if they can find two pine bookcases they would be happy to have. I'll post again, if the job comes my way.

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Dave, the best way I have found to price work is to set up an hourly shop rate, this needs to include all your expences, (payments on equipment, electricty,propane, shop supplys, anything that dosent include the actual materials to build the job. Add these up for a month, say its $300, then divide that number by the average hours you get to work a month, say 40 =$7.50 an hour, then add what you would like to pay yourself per hour maybe $25 hour, plus material, plus 15% profit

I keep a folder for every job, write down the hours I work each day and what I did, this will give you a good estimate on how long it take to do a certain task

So using this senario, and your material figures

Shop rate $32.50 x 10 hours = $320
Materals = $200
15% Profit = $78

$598

[josh bjork]

I would like to nominate this as the Observation Of The Year.\]

But walmart changes your oil for like $15?

Dave does have a good point though it is a little subtle. If you don't want or need the work, charge enough that you don't get the job and if you do it'll go down easier. You don't tell them to go look at import stores if you NEED the work. And there ain't nothin wrong with doing that, either. It is kind of a personal topic because some people would obviously like the work.

[Robert Waddell]

This is one of those things that I try to run away from. I had a good customer ask for a small pine open backed bookcase this past summer. She could have bought it at any of the craft stores. I agreed to do it for her just because she had been a good customer in the past. I told her what the materials cost and that what ever she wanted to pay me over that was ok. She gave me $5 more than the materials. So I worked for less than $1/hr and she payed more than she would at the store. Neither of us got a fair deal out of it. Things that are simple, made of low cost materials and can be found on store shelves should be avoided. Now that I am back to full-time ww'er and have shop rent/overhead I can't do it anymore. Charge what you have to and don't apologize. I've found that I get more respect when I charge for my work.
Rob

[Terry Bigelow]

This is a very interesting subject and a complicated one at that. My wife and I run a local cabinet company specializing in high end full custom euro style (frameless) cabinetry.There are many factors that should go into a quote. The price of the materials and time are two of the most basic aspects. Another very important aspect is quality. What is the level of quality you intend to build? This includes both technique and materials. And materials include not only the wood but finishing products and hardware including drawer slides, hinges and knobs & pulls. These little items can change your overall cost considerably depending on the job size. Also your local market should help you set your price. Competitive companies in your area and the price of material, not to mention rent, gas and other items you might not think to include.
We subscribe to a magazine called Cabinet Maker which is a mag dedicated to the small 1-20 man size cabinet shops(we have 6 total employees including us). Every year they have a pricing survey in which they send out job specs for 3 or 4 different jobs(like a kitchen, ent. center, bar,etc.)with detailed specifications and materials. The quotes are then returned with a breakdown of the cost per item. The results are incredible! They not only show just how much quotes can vary, but they also tell a story of the bigger picture. The kitchen job quotes, for example, ranged from $6,1800 at the low end and $44,925 at the top end! What was really interesting was the "bigger picture". At the low end of bids the businesses had very little experience (in business for less than 2 years) and not suprisingly, the highest bidders had all been in business for at least 10 years!
In our case, we have been in business for 20+ years. In that time we have seen MANY companies open in our area. Many of those companies consistently underbid us. Most are no longer in business. While I do not advocate over charging I think under charging is both more of a problem and a potential fatal one at that. For these reasons I don't think anyone can give you a definitive answer as to price except you, taking into consideration ALL of the factors. Here's the link to the survey from '05:http://www.cabinetmakeronline.com/Articles/0510cpric2.htm. Hope this helps in some way.

[Terry Bigelow]

By the way, well said Robert. I recently had a lady call and ask if I could copy an item from a Pottery Barn catalog. It was a bed frame and nightstands in one. My first question was: If you see this item in a catalog and you can purchase it, why have me build it? The answer to that question might not tell you if you SHOULD do work for him/her, but it will tell you if you SHOULDN'T. She replied "because I know your reputation and have seen your work, and I want higher quality than Pottery Barn." O.K., now we can talk. If they say they can get it for $899.99 and were hoping maybe you could do it for less...don't waste your time!

[Richard Kagen]

of mine was in my shop. He saw a peice of stepele I had kicking around and commented that two libary cases he design were being installed on Monday. Very high end home in Waban near Boston. I guess they are large, guess the price before you scroll down....



































































$35,000 installed. So I would go with $1200

[luc gendron]

Hello Dave,

I've built many bookcases in the past. I agree your price is a little high. I would be in the 700$ or 800$ range (You did mention two bookcases right?) You are using Plywood (I hope plywood core). A 4 x 8' sheet of plywood core veneered pine sheet should not cost more than 75$. So one sheet should do the job. Should you have a solid pine face frame, I figure 30$ tops for that and say moulding at 40$ and other shop material brings this to 150$ tops in material. Cutting plywood sides, max 45 minutes, assembling (assuming that you are using plywood you are not using traditional joinery!) 1 to 2 hours. Finishing....what kind of finish? Most of my pieces are distressed and need 6 to 7 steps for finishing, see my work at www.hardwareattic.ca (http://www.hardwareattic.ca)) . Should you be applying simple stain and clear coat..estimate 3 hours. So about 6 to 7 hours, tops...at 50$ per hour plus material brings total to about 500$...I think you are over quoting. I know its hard to quote but I think you might be high on this one. Again assuming many things.....joinery, finish, type of molding and....what is the income of your client (like it or not this affects the quote!)

[Dave Falkenstein]

...You are using Plywood (I hope plywood core). A 4 x 8' sheet of plywood core veneered pine sheet should not cost more than 75$. So one sheet should do the job...

Luc - Thanks for your post. Each bookcase requires 6 pieces approximately 12X36. I would want the grain running with the long dimension. I can get 8 pieces from one 4X8 sheet. I need two sheets for two bookcases, with a substantial amount of ply left over. Knotty pine ply is $79 per sheet plus tax, or $85 per sheet, so the ply cost is $170. Using ply, I figured another $80 for face frame, trim and supplies - that might be a bit high. My labor estimate is higher than yours - I guess I work slower. Smile. At this point the client is shopping for store-bought bookcases - which is fine with me. Thanks again.

[Larry Crim]

Dave another thing I would consider is the time alloted, since I pretty much do this as a hobby I would charge more if I had to put other projects on hold to finish this job, if the customer was not concerned with delivery time and I could work on it at my own pace say when I was waiting for a glue up to dry or finish to set up then I would be more apt to cut the rate down a little. Use this as a bargining point when you quote the price and you will not be pressured to get it complete by a deadline.
Larry

[Greg Mann]

Some of you may feel I am out to lunch on this but I believe us 'amateurs' (don't think this includes you, Dave) should be very careful about undercharging for our work. This hurts the pros amongst us who need to make a living off their work. While it is not exactly the same thing I remember the remark of a builder friend who was underbid on a roofing job by the prospective customer's moonlighting neighbor. When he was asked. "what he got by paying my pro friend more than the neighbor? the answer was, "If I fall off your roof I can't sue you." He got the job that time but he doesn't always, for sure.

For me, I dabble in this craft and don't need to make money, but I also respect those who do this for a livelihood. As a result I usually do projects that become gifts for friends and family and shy away from competing who the pros. We live in a competitive world and that's fine, but it is important to understand our place in it.

None of this may have any relevance to your situation, Dave, but I believe it goes hand in hand with inexperienced vendors who charge too little. By the time they go out of business, or wise up, they have often done damage to other well run businesses.

Greg

[John Piwaron]

Me? I'd ask somewhat less than what you've quoted because of the plywood, but I don't think your price is entirely out of line. And exactly what you quoted if it was to be solid wood. Execution is going to be very important here - no mistakes. Flawless finish. In fact, the finish might be the most important thing about it.

I've made stuff for people in the past. I too feel guilty for asking what sounds like an outrageous price to me.

In addition to all the factors other have pointed out - material, depreciation, labor rate, ect, ect, there's also the fact that when your doing something for them, you're not doing something for yourself.

Look at the websites for guys like Christian Becksvoort (www.chbecksvoort.com) or Darrell Peart (www.furnituremaker.com) and tell me they haven't figured it out.

When people want custom just for them handmade things of excellent quality, they have to pay. Even if it looks simple.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I built a child's bed recently that copied them as well. They called me back and wanted a play table for less than the $300 PB charged and I had to refuse it. The bed listed for $1500 and I made it for them for $975 using Home Depot DF posts and SYP 2x10's and beadboard plywood. My costs were $300 total and it took me two days. I generally multiply the materials times 3 or 4 depending on the cost.

If you spend enough time you can get good wood from HD and make it into cheap furniture. I don't do this very often but you can do it.

I build things for people for a living and pricing can be a very touchy issue. People HAVE to know [whether via common sense or you telling them] that you cannot beat catalog prices very often. I had this happen last week with two friends who had asked me to build a small entertainment center for their daughter. I told them I couldn't build it any cheaper than I quoted and if they really wanted cheap they'd have to go buy it at Ikea [the Antichrist of all the world's craftsmen]. :eek:

[Dave Falkenstein]

Me? I'd ask somewhat less than what you've quoted because of the plywood, but I don't think your price is entirely out of line. And exactly what you quoted if it was to be solid wood...

John - On this project the cost is actually a bit higher using plywood. The reason is waste. As I mentioned in a post above, I need to buy two sheets of plywood, and waste 25% of one piece and over 50% of the second piece - left over, not really waste. I can buy nice 1X12's and use them without glueups, so the labor is about the same for ply or solid wood, in this case.

[John Piwaron]

John - On this project the cost is actually a bit higher using plywood. The reason is waste. As I mentioned in a post above, I need to buy two sheets of plywood, and waste 25% of one piece and over 50% of the second piece - left over, not really waste. I can buy nice 1X12's and use them without glueups, so the labor is about the same for ply or solid wood, in this case.


Then the price asked is good by me.

I haven't completely worked out my feelings on plywood. It has it's place, but I don't really feel good about using it in furniture. Kitchen cabinets, shop "furniture", stuff in the garage, sure. O.K.

[Robert Waddell]

"Some of you may feel I am out to lunch on this but I believe us 'amateurs' (don't think this includes you, Dave) should be very careful about undercharging for our work. This hurts the pros amongst us who need to make a living off their work."

Thanks Greg for stating this. I've encountered two problems in this arena in the last 3 months. One cost me about three unpayed hours and some gas for a $400 job I didn't get. The other I don't know all the damage yet but could be a few K that I have been doing on an annual basis.

Most everyone of us "pros" started out in the garage, under charging. Until you start doing it full-time do you fully realize what so many garage amateurs does for your business. The thing of it is that many or most serious amateurs do just as good a job or better than pros because they have more time to spend on the minute details. I just wish that somehow we could come up with a uniformed standard to go by when charging so that we all would get paid what we are worth.
Rob