Shapton stones

[Bob Marino]

Has anyone used Shapton stones? Worth the money?

Bob

[Alan Turner]

Bob,
I have had them for about 6 months now, and think they are fantastic. The 1000 cuts really fast. I also have the 5000 and 8000. The 8000 is a better stone than the 5000, and it was explained to me that they changed the chemistry a bit on the 8000. The problem with the 5000 is that it is so flat that when lapping, there is so much suction that it becomes a pain to actually move the blade or iron on the stone. If price is an issue, then you might skip the 8000. I got the 3 I did as there was a bit of a discount of the set, but the finer stones are far more expensive. Doing it again, I might opt for the 12000 instead of the 8000, but I have not tried it.
You will need to flatten these, as with any waterstone, but less so than the softer ones. These are firm stones. My best way, after a lot of different approaches, is a sheet of clear plastic shelf liner, PSA, on a flat piece of granite floor tile which I checked with a starrett straight edge, using medium grit abrasive powder. It doesn't take much powder. An informal lapping plate, if you will. This approach gives you tiny grooves, which helps with the suction issue.
A-2 Cryo is not a problem on these stones. They still cut fast.
They are not cheap, but to a neander concerned with sharpening, as all neanders must be, they are well worth it, IMHO. I got mine from Joel, in NYC, at the toolsforworkingwood.com site. Talk to him if there are any questions as he is knowledgable about what he sells.
I seem to recall that Steve Knight uses them. And I saw a site where there was a report of a hand planing competition with smoothers, where the task was to take one continuous shaving from a 1.5" thick board of maple about 10 or so feet long, with the winner having the thinest shaving. It came in at .0078" as I reacall. In the photographs you can see the planers tuning up their irons with Shaptons.
If you are in the Phila area, email me and you can do a test drive.
Alan

[John Wadsworth]

Bob,

I've done the whole gamut--oil stones, diamond, ceramic, Scary Sharp, waterstones--and the Shapton stones are a favorite by a long shot. Lapping chisel and plane blade backs goes quickly enough that I actually DO it and do it right! And it's nice to be able to just spray the stone surface rather than keep them soaking all the time.

John

[Bob Marino]

Bob,

I've done the whole gamut--oil stones, diamond, ceramic, Scary Sharp, waterstones--and the Shapton stones are a favorite by a long shot. Lapping chisel and plane blade backs goes quickly enough that I actually DO it and do it right! And it's nice to be able to just spray the stone surface rather than keep them soaking all the time.

John
John,

Why do you prefer it over the Scary Sharp system? What grit Shaptons...1000, 5000? What do you use for a lapping plate?

Thanks again.

Bob

[Steven Wilson]

I use the 320, 1000, 5000, and 8000 grit shapton stones. I'm thinking of adding the 110 and 2000 grit stones as sometimes the 320 isn't coarse enough and the jump from 1000 to 5000 can be a bit much sometimes. Also the 2000 grit stone is probably more usefull for maintaining the edge (why go back to 1000 if all you need to do is rehone). With all of these stones it is imperative to keep them flat. I use the Shapton steel flatening plate with various grit powders and always flaten the stones when I'm done using them. When preparing a new blade for use I will reflaten the stones every couple of minutes; the reflatening process is real quick if you do it often enough (i.e. takes 20-30 seconds). The sharpening DVD that Harelson puts out is very good. I especially like the technique of moving the blade back on a higher grit stone to establish a bit of shine and then move to the coarser stone for flatening; it really highlights which parts of the blade still need work. You will also notice that your stones aren't flat when you move from grit to grit and notice that you need to spend a bunch of time to get the blade to wear down - a sign that the two stones weren't flat with respect to each other. If you sharpen a lot, or don't mind spending a bit of money, then the Shapton diamond lapping plate would be a good addition - this baby really works stones and metal down quickly, and it's very flat. But alas, I don't have an extra $500 lying around to pick this baby up. As for the grits, the 5000 grit stone is high enough for most chisels but you should take plane blades up to 8000 or higher, depending on how smooth of a surface you like your plane blades to give.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

I saw an interesting article on the Woodcentral Hand Tool board about supplies for flattening Shapton stones or any water stone really. Russell Seaton did the article. Basically his conculsion was that the supplies sold by Shapton for flattening stones are way over priced. He found a Kanaban flattening plate from Japan Woodworker for $12.95 which he used instead of the $120 plate for the Shaptons. The big money saver he found was buying silicon carbide grit from a lapidary supply company. He paid alot less for the silicon carbide grits. The price break down was $3.50 per pound for course grits and $6.00 per pound for fine grits. The stuff sold specifically for Shapton is $14.95 per 7 ounces for course grits and $24.95 per 7 ounces for fine grits which makes them almost ten times more expensive. Hope this saves somebody some money.

Wendell

[Bob Marino]

I saw an interesting article on the Woodcentral Hand Tool board about supplies for flattening Shapton stones or any water stone really. Russell Seaton did the article. Basically his conculsion was that the supplies sold by Shapton for flattening stones are way over priced. He found a Kanaban flattening plate from Japan Woodworker for $12.95 which he used instead of the $120 plate for the Shaptons. The big money saver he found was buying silicon carbide grit from a lapidary supply company. He paid alot less for the silicon carbide grits. The price break down was $3.50 per pound for course grits and $6.00 per pound for fine grits. The stuff sold specifically for Shapton is $14.95 per 7 ounces for course grits and $24.95 per 7 ounces for fine grits which makes them almost ten times more expensive. Hope this saves somebody some money.

Wendell


Thanks, Wendell,

I saw that post ...and acted upon Russell's advice. Bought some Shaptons and that (or very similar) plate from Hartville. That's the beauty of these forums - nice people and great info. Time for me to stop buyin' and start tryin' with the tools!

Bob

[John Wadsworth]

..I've been off the computer for a day.

I use the same stones as Steve, though for me the 320 seems plenty coarse for initial flattening of backs.

The lapping plate is one I've had for years--can't remember where I got it. And I've got a fair amount of carbide grit lying around, too.

John

[Gene Collison]

Has anybody tried the Veritas power sharpening system? Lyn Mangiameli, a well respected authority on planes at least as far as many people are concerned including me, swears by it. I am in somewhat the same position as Bob, deciding whether to take the big expensive leap into Shapton's. I have tried scary sharp and don't like the curved surface it leaves from substrate colapse. I don't like the constant flattening routine of waterstones and I don't know about the lapping plate requirement either with Shapton's. How often do Shapton's require flattening? My king waterstones can't make it through 2 block planes. Where is the best place to buy Shapton's. To cloud up the issue even more, I read a newsgroup post by Steve Knight that he sharpens hundreds of irons using the Makita sharpener. I think Makita has a very fine grit waterstone available. I have a Delta Sharpening station now that I would not put my L-N plane irons on. Any advice?

Gene

[Lloyd Robins]

I was just at Shapton's site, and they have a video on using their new diamond lapping plate and stone flatener. Very interesting. They don't have what the cost will be on the site yet. Toolsforworkingwood.com sell the Shapton line. Joel is very helpful. I would still like to find out more about the Makita (I hear that it is quite messy) and the Lee Valley.

[Richard McComas]

I was just at Shapton's site, and they have a video on using their new diamond lapping plate and stone flatener. Very interesting. They don't have what the cost will be on the site yet. Toolsforworkingwood.com sell the Shapton line. Joel is very helpful. I would still like to find out more about the Makita (I hear that it is quite messy) and the Lee Valley.

Lloyd, I here the new lapping plate is going to be priced at 476.00 DAMWIHT

[Gene Collison]

I was just at Shapton's site, and they have a video on using their new diamond lapping plate and stone flatener. Very interesting. They don't have what the cost will be on the site yet. Toolsforworkingwood.com sell the Shapton line. Joel is very helpful. I would still like to find out more about the Makita (I hear that it is quite messy) and the Lee Valley.

Lloyd,

If you do a google search on the Veritas sharpener, in the ww newsgroup, you should be able to find a report written by Lyn on the Veritas. I think he uses it exclusively now but can't say for sure. I may email him. Also in the same thread Steve Knight adds his opinion on the Makita. Good Luck finding it!
The new Woodcraft in Stanton also has what appears to be a Makita clone for only $89. Might be worth a try, I'm going to try and swing by today and get a look. At that price it may even prove to be a good tool to use in conjunction with stones. It cost about as much as 1 Shapton and if you don't like it you can return it within a year.

Gene

[Steven Wilson]

IIRC Steve uses the Makita to establish the bevel on his plane irons but then uses the Shapton hippo stones (they're quite big) to sharpen the blades. The Makita outfited with the wheels Steve uses cut quite fast and leave a flat ground bevel that Steve likes.

[Lloyd Robins]

Lloyd, I here the new lapping plate is going to be priced at 476.00 DAMWIHT

I just got a reply on the new lapping plate, and it is even more expensive. They said that it is $489.00. Wow! It is nice, but I could buy a lot of other systems for much less. Maybe the Shapton stones and a Norton diamond plate or just a lapping plate like Bob did. Darn!

[Gene Collison]

IIRC Steve uses the Makita to establish the bevel on his plane irons but then uses the Shapton hippo stones (they're quite big) to sharpen the blades. The Makita outfited with the wheels Steve uses cut quite fast and leave a flat ground bevel that Steve likes.

Yes, I'm aware about Steve's usage of the Makita and the stones. But I am thinking if a small grinder like the Makita can take you 90% of the way to a sharp iron, you may be way ahead. I like that flat ground bevel too!

gene

[Steven Wilson]

Yes, I'm aware about Steve's usage of the Makita and the stones. But I am thinking if a small grinder like the Makita can take you 90% of the way to a sharp iron, you may be way ahead. I like that flat ground bevel too!

gene

Remember, Steve is making his blades from steel stock. The Makita isn't getting it 90% there, it's doing the initial grinding work to establish a bevel. You still need to do a fair amount of work to get it the rest of the way there. The Shaptons help you get the rest of the way quickly, much quicker than any other method I've tried (oil stones, scary sharp, King stones, etc).

[Gene Collison]

Remember, Steve is making his blades from steel stock. The Makita isn't getting it 90% there, it's doing the initial grinding work to establish a bevel. You still need to do a fair amount of work to get it the rest of the way there. The Shaptons help you get the rest of the way quickly, much quicker than any other method I've tried (oil stones, scary sharp, King stones, etc).


So, it appears that Shapton's are certainly the way to go and I will probably go ahead with them. I went to the Shapton website and came away a bit confused. I watched the video on the new diamond flattening plate and noticed that the demonstrator was not using a honing guide like a Veritas. He appeared to be sharpening a plane iron free hand, the movie format was really small on my PC, couldn't really tell to much. Are you guys using a honing guide, seems like it would be harmful to the stone. He was going through great lengths to keep his stones flat. Also I went to the lapping plate area and they had three different lapping mechanisms starting from $19.95 to $120. not including the new diamond plate. One was a Koishiara? or something with no explanation as to what it was, looked like a waterstone. Also Steve Knight says that they stay flat longer than any other stone indicating the need for flattening often was not necessary and this guy is flattening every 30 seconds seemed like. Could someone enlighten me?

Gene

[Kurt Loup]

Gene,

I have the Shapton Pro 120, 1000, 2000 and 5000 stones and the M5 12000 as well as the lapping disc. The last two items were purchased from Japan Woodworker. I've sharpened about a dozen plane blades/chisels with the stones. The 120 is softer than the other pro stones and needed flattening after I wore down one edge of the stone flattening a cap iron. I used the Highland Hardware flattening plate with Veritas Sic grit. It quickly flattened the 120 stone. I haven't found a need to flatten the other stones, but I have rubbed them between uses with the lapping disc. If nothing else, it seems to renew the surface of the stones when they start to load. I have also rubbed the other stones together once or twice. While rubbing the 5000 and 12000 stones together, they stuck together with such suction, that I was afraid to apply the necessary force to unstick them. I soaked them in water for about 30 minutes before I was finally able to release them. It still required a good bit of effort. I guess that means they were fairly flat. I find that the Shaptons stay flatter and cut faster than the diamond and King stones I was using. If I remember correctly, Steve Knight sharpens about 10 blades between flattening. Every 30 seconds is overkill to me.

Kurt

[Gene Collison]

Gene,

I have the Shapton Pro 120, 1000, 2000 and 5000 stones and the M5 12000 as well as the lapping disc. The last two items were purchased from Japan Woodworker. I've sharpened about a dozen plane blades/chisels with the stones. The 120 is softer than the other pro stones and needed flattening after I wore down one edge of the stone flattening a cap iron. I used the Highland Hardware flattening plate with Veritas Sic grit. It quickly flattened the 120 stone. I haven't found a need to flatten the other stones, but I have rubbed them between uses with the lapping disc. If nothing else, it seems to renew the surface of the stones when they start to load. I have also rubbed the other stones together once or twice. While rubbing the 5000 and 12000 stones together, they stuck together with such suction, that I was afraid to apply the necessary force to unstick them. I soaked them in water for about 30 minutes before I was finally able to release them. It still required a good bit of effort. I guess that means they were fairly flat. I find that the Shaptons stay flatter and cut faster than the diamond and King stones I was using. If I remember correctly, Steve Knight sharpens about 10 blades between flattening. Every 30 seconds is overkill to me.

Kurt

Kurt,

Thanks for sorting this thing out for me. Yes, I'd say you have no problem with flatness if you can't break the surface tension with water on them. One more question, is there a particular flattening device/lapping plate that you could or would recommend? It looks like you have tried or are using two. Is the lapping disc that round stone looking item that sells for about $12.95 on the Shapton site? I notice that a lot of this may be overkill. Shapton has three different grits for lapping stones all costing about $25.00 per shot glass full. I mean it's only sharpening and lapping. Thanks........for your help!

Gene

[Steven Wilson]

The plate that sells for $120 is the one I use. You use different grits for different stones, so if you have a 220, 1000, 5000, and 8000 grit stones you would need the coarse, medium, and fine grit powders to use in flattening. The grits are fairly cheep and you don't use much. As for flattening every few seconds, it's more of a need on the coarser grit stones (which dish quicker) and when you're flattening large areas (like chisel and plane backs). You really want all of your stones to be equally flat so that when you switch stones you are able to continue the flattening process without working so long (hard to explain) on removing high areas; working over the entire stone is important. As for using guides, I use the Veritas guide for plane irons and try to sharpen chisels by hand. I've found that guides are useless for some chisels (many japaneese chisels, mortise chisels, a few others) so I'm working on my freehand technique. The important part is learning how to lock your forearms into a constant angle throught the sharpening movement. It helps to practice infront of a video camera. I like the Veritas guide when practical.

[Kurt Loup]

Gene,

This is the flattening plate from Highland Hardware that I use. The item number is 026415 for $17.99, however item number 026440 appears to be the same plate with 5 silicon carbide grits for $13.99.

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/images/products/sharpening/026415.jpg

This the Shapton lapping disc I have. It appears to be made of the same material as the Pro 120 stone, but it may be a little harder.

http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/images/fukkatutoishi.n.jpg

Kurt

[Gene Collison]

Gene,

This is the flattening plate from Highland Hardware that I use. The item number is 026415 for $17.99, however item number 026440 appears to be the same plate with 5 silicon carbide grits for $13.99.

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/images/products/sharpening/026415.jpg

This the Shapton lapping disc I have. It appears to be made of the same material as the Pro 120 stone, but it may be a little harder.

http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/images/fukkatutoishi.n.jpg

Kurt

Kurt,

Thanks for the info, the lapping disc and plate are the items I was thinking you had. Thanks for the confirmation!

Gene

[Michael Stadulis]

Hello Kurt,

I have the Shaptons as well in the standard 1K, 5K and 8K grits. I'd like a coarser grit for initial flattening and bevel work. Have you ecer used a 220 to see how coarse it was? Presumeably the 120 is not like 120 sandpaper...? I'd figure the coarser the softer, so I was hoping I could get away with a 220 instaed of 320.

Mike

[Kurt Loup]

Hello Kurt,

I have the Shaptons as well in the standard 1K, 5K and 8K grits. I'd like a coarser grit for initial flattening and bevel work. Have you ecer used a 220 to see how coarse it was? Presumeably the 120 is not like 120 sandpaper...? I'd figure the coarser the softer, so I was hoping I could get away with a 220 instaed of 320.

Mike

No, I haven't tried the 220 or 320. I have the 120 Pro and it is softer than the other stones. I don't think it is as coarse as 120 grit sandpaper. I would start with 120 for bevels and flattening. Despite the hype, it still takes a while to rework a bevel. In fact, I use my grinder if a bevel needs reshaping. I'd like an extra stone somewhere between the 120 and 1000. I've seen King stones in 800 grit, I think. I may try one eventually. I use two types of honing guides and I never seem to get the blade or chisel aligned consistently so the bevel gets reworked each time I sharpen. I'd like something a little more agressive than the 1000 when the angle is not quite right or the middle of the blade wears more than the edges. When I am building strip built boats I plane 1/4" wide strips and when I build bamboo flyrods I plane strips less than 1/4" wide. I wear down the center of my plane blades. I've found that the wider the range of stones I have, the faster the sharpening process.

Kurt