Tool Of The Decade!

[Dan Lautner]

April 1st will change the way wood is joined forever. All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar. Festool is bringing precision German joining techniques to America. Pull your wallets out and get ready to build museum quality furniture in a fraction of the time it takes the "pros". Why buy a $30 press board bookshelf from Ikea when you could craft one from exotic hardwood cheaper and faster. The Domino will do for woodworking what the elevator did for the skyscraper. These things sold out in europe in weeks so get them while you can. I'm in no way affiliated with festool.

Dan

[Ron Brese]

I've heard that one before. I think it was when the biscuit joiner hit the market.

Ron

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Yeah Dan.....and I have this bridge I want to sell you.....You can set up your own toll booth.....Make millions!:eek: :rolleyes: :D

[Gary Keedwell]

Yeah Dan.....and I have this bridge I want to sell you.....You can set up your own toll booth.....Make millions!:eek: :rolleyes: :D
:cool: Oh Brother!!! We got to listen to this for over 2 months?????

Gary K.

[Mike Henderson]

Why buy a $30 press board bookshelf from Ikea when you could craft one from exotic hardwood cheaper and faster. Dan
Have you bought any exotic hardwood lately? The wood alone will cost a lot more than that $30 you quote. I'll bet it cures cancer, also. Washes the dishes, cleans the house, and takes out the garbage.

Mike

[Dave Rudy]

Faster yes. Better yes. I've already ordered one so my credentials are impeccable. But CHEAPER? Than $30?

[Don Selke]

As a retired person, I will keep my mortising machine, biscuit jointer and drill press. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Been producing jointery that way all my life and with the price of that machine, I will continue as usual.

[Doug Mason]

Although I've been working w/wood for only a couple years, I have come to realize, as all the old-timers will all point out with a smile, that the fundamentals are the "fundamentals." If you want to waste money on all these jigs, so be it.

[Dave Hale]

John Lucas ( a member here) has some reviews of usage of the system on his site (woodshopdemos.com). He seems pretty pleased with the system. Out of my league, for now, but it sure looks like it's an efficient system for joinery.

[Bruce Page]

Thanks but I’ll stick with mortise & tenon and the occasional biscuit. For the $600 this tool would cost me, I would expect it to pick up and deliver my lumber too.
I’m sure this is a well made tool, I just don’t see the need in a hobbyist shop.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Gee, I was hoping there would be another Domino thread. That other one was getting too long to follow. Smile. Only time will tell if the Domino lives up to all the hype surrounding it in the US market.

[Jim Becker]

Be nice, folks...your friendly moderators HATE to delete posts and threads when someone forgets this is a civil online woodworking community... ;)

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Gary Eneberg]

It's not the price of the tool that kills me, its the price of the Dominos(tenons) that makes me hate the machine. I'd go broke buying them.

Mortiser and tablesaw will have to do for me.

Gary

[Gary Keedwell]

Thanks but I’ll stick with mortise & tenon and the occasional biscuit. For the $600 this tool would cost me, I would expect it to pick up and deliver my lumber too.
I’m sure this is a well made tool, I just don’t see the need in a hobbyist shop.

:eek: $ 600? Try $660 and that's without the dowels. Another $200 for dowels and router bits. Don't forget attachments. Gonna cost about $1000 anyways.:(

Gary K.

[Mike Parzych]

Someone may have paid attention to that post if it didn't read as though it came right from the Marketing Manager's desk. Sheeesh....

[Joe Mioux]

Gee, I was hoping there would be another Domino thread. That other one was getting too long to follow. Smile. Only time will tell if the Domino lives up to all the hype surrounding it in the US market.

LOL: Yes it was!

Like I said in that long thread. The thing makes a hole in wood.

joe

[Bob Wingard]

Dang !! Does this mean I can't use my Beadlock anymore ?? ?? ?? Does pretty much the same thing, just more slowly .. .. ..

[Mike Parzych]

And I sure don't want to hear from anyone who bought one, then wants to whine about the bf price of maple!

[Dan Lautner]

55931


Ken I have an aluminum rail I wan't to sell you it will change the way you work. You can do things you never could with your router table.


"Yeah Dan.....and I have this bridge I want to sell you.....You can set up your own toll booth.....Make millions"

[Pete Brown]

Dan, that's the longest I've ever seen for a bunch of Festool guides :) I assume you were trimming the back of the bar or were you profiling with a non-bearing bit?

FWIW, I have their saw, guides and table. I'll likely pass on the domino though, and may get a woodrat instead.

Pete

[Travis Lavallee]

I understand your thinking that it may make things quicker and easier for someone to make something, but at what point does using such a specialized tool take away from the sense of practicing and working on a skill to be able to do something that someone from the general public can not do? Part of woodworking for me is the enjoyment of seeing the project actually built, but the majority of the fun come from actually learning and using skills, and actually knowing alot of time was invested into building something. Using this to build with the intention of profiting on your product has its merits, but I don't see myself getting one.

[Todd Solomon]

It's not the price of the tool that kills me, its the price of the Dominos(tenons) that makes me hate the machine. I'd go broke buying them.

Mortiser and tablesaw will have to do for me.

Gary

Hi Gary,

You can make your own loose tenons out of scrap wood, if you like. It's been done for decades, by woodworkers that make mortises with routers or slot mortisers. You can round over the edges of home-made loose tenons with a roundover bit in the router table.

Todd

[Jim Dailey]

Greetings!!

Let's clear the air a little...

1st I think Dan is way over selling the Domino

2nd I admit I am a Festool fan

3rd I have a Domino on order with Bob Marino

I have been following the Domino on a site down under since it was introduced down there. There were initially two groups; one large very vocal group that thought the Domino was w-a-y over priced, and a group that grew steadily of enthusiastic Domino users. As you follow the posts thru time the "members" of the first group had many converts to the group of Domino users.

Yes the Domino is expensive. No it won't be for everyone. Be skeptical, but keep an open mind. If you do you may be pleasantly surprised. But in the meantime be civil.

jim

[Gary Keedwell]

"April 1st will change the way wood is joined forever. All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar."


Yes, let us all be civil!!!


Gary K.:mad:

[John Schreiber]

Did no one else assume this was a joke? Is it really coming out on April fools day?


April 1st will change the way wood is joined forever. All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar. Festool is bringing precision German joining techniques to America. Pull your wallets out and get ready to build museum quality furniture in a fraction of the time it takes the "pros". Why buy a $30 press board bookshelf from Ikea when you could craft one from exotic hardwood cheaper and faster. The Domino will do for woodworking what the elevator did for the skyscraper. These things sold out in europe in weeks so get them while you can. I'm in no way affiliated with festool.

Dan

Never mind, I just went and read some of the other Festool posts. It didn't occur to me that any tool could be as life changing as that. People seem awfully excited.

[Gary Keedwell]

I wonder how much they laugh when they get their credit card bill...

Gary K.;)

There is a few who's exicitment cannot be detained. LOL

[Dave Falkenstein]

I wonder how much they laugh when they get their credit card bill...

Gary K.;)

There is a few who's exicitment cannot be detained. LOL

OK Gary, we get it. You think the Domino is too expensive. Good. Now, can we move on???

[Dave Rudy]

You guys crack me up. LOL. :p Tell you what, instead of discussing Domino before it gets here, why not just mosey on down to your local Woodcraft and take one for a test drive after April 1.

Let's talk then about what we saw and how it works, etc. True, Festool is always going to be a little more than the competition -- but if you compare apples to apples, the price of this machine is quite in the ballpark compared to the Lamello top 20, for example. And while it will completely replace a biscuit joiner, the opposite is hardly true.

Let's talk about precision, utility, practicality. The price discussion makes more sense after you figure out what it is you're pricing. $1000 is a lot of money for a driver-drill, but not for a tablesaw.

Off the soapbox

[Jim Becker]

FYI, the picture in post #19 is of Per Swenson's rail in the bar project he's working on. There is another shop of him straight-lining the bar-top edge with the OF 1400...both are posted at the new Festool group forum site.

[Bob Marino]

It's not the price of the tool that kills me, its the price of the Dominos(tenons) that makes me hate the machine. I'd go broke buying them.


Gary

Gary,

I first read this thread last night and knew that starting with the initial post, this one would be a "lively" discussion ..to say the least and promised myself that I wouldn't touch this one with Per's 30' rails.:D
But I figure it's ok to reply to your comment. A box of 1000 # 20 Lamello biscuits is $42.95. A box of 1140 Festool 6 x 40mm dominos (tenons) is $65.00. That's a difference, but not too big of one, IMO.

Bob

[Mike Cutler]

Dan's opening post did seem a bit "tongue in cheek".

Honestly, there is something that I don't understand. For the folks that comment solely on the cost alone. If someone were to give you one, with a lifetime supply of tenons, would you use it, stand on principle and throw it in the garbage heap, or keep doing Mortise& Tenons the way you currently are and never take it out of the box? It either works, or it doesn't.
I don't have any intention of purchasing one, but I can see that it will have a broad market appeal.

Sawstop, EureakaZone and Festool. These companies sure do get a lot of "Free press".

[Keith Starosta]

Someone may have paid attention to that post if it didn't read as though it came right from the Marketing Manager's desk. Sheeesh....

Agree completely!!! :eek:

- Keith

[Alex Berkovsky]

Since we are on the subject, I came across one of our member's (Rick Christopherson) blog (http://waterfront-woods.home.att.net/Projects/RoundTable/TableBlog.html) where he puts the Domino to use.

[Michael Keating]

April 1st will change the way wood is joined forever. All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar. Festool is bringing precision German joining techniques to America. Pull your wallets out and get ready to build museum quality furniture in a fraction of the time it takes the "pros". Why buy a $30 press board bookshelf from Ikea when you could craft one from exotic hardwood cheaper and faster. The Domino will do for woodworking what the elevator did for the skyscraper. These things sold out in europe in weeks so get them while you can. I'm in no way affiliated with festool.

Dan

My exotic lumber price will go down to below $30 if I buy a domino?

How much is this magical tool?

[Gary Keedwell]

OK Gary, we get it. You think the Domino is too expensive. Good. Now, can we move on???__________________
Dave Falkenstein aka Daviddubya
Cave Creek, AZ

Gee Dave , why just single me out? There seems to be more then one skeptic on this boat. Guess what? Move on all you want, but the price will not move. Besides, discussion is healthy and "sticker shock" doesn't last forever. Just because we express our opinion on the price, doesn't mean were NOT going to buy one. Price, performance, durabilty, versatility....their ALL important. IMHO

Respectfully,
Gary K.

[Vijay Kumar]

It's not the price of the tool that kills me, its the price of the Dominos(tenons) that makes me hate the machine. I'd go broke buying them.

Mortiser and tablesaw will have to do for me.

Gary
I would think it would be fairly easy to make your own tenon stock on a router table. Unless the Dominos have some weird shape that I cannot visualize.

Vijay

[Lars Thomas]

Vijay, you probably could make them, but at .05/per, it doesn't make much sense.

[Gary Eneberg]

If they truely cost .05 cents each then that is doable. Where did you get that number?

I love their tools, built like tanks and will last a lifetime. I'm torn on purchasing one for all the M/T work I do, we'll see.

Gary

[Dave Falkenstein]

Gary - My apologies - you are correct. My post should have read:

OK people, we get it. Lots of folks think the Domino is too expensive. Good. Now, can we move on?

Better???

ps - If anyone thinks the Domino is too expensive, then perhaps they should exercise their right not to buy it. Hmmm.


OK Gary, we get it. You think the Domino is too expensive. Good. Now, can we move on???__________________
Dave Falkenstein aka Daviddubya
Cave Creek, AZ

Gee Dave , why just single me out? There seems to be more then one skeptic on this boat. Guess what? Move on all you want, but the price will not move. Besides, discussion is healthy and "sticker shock" doesn't last forever. Just because we express our opinion on the price, doesn't mean were NOT going to buy one. Price, performance, durabilty, versatility....their ALL important. IMHO

Respectfully,
Gary K.

[Mark Carlson]

If they truely cost .05 cents each then that is doable. Where did you get that number?

I love their tools, built like tanks and will last a lifetime. I'm torn on purchasing one for all the M/T work I do, we'll see.

Gary

Gary,

Heres the breakdown. I rounded to the nearest hundreth.

5x30, $65 you get 1800 dominoes, .04 per
6x40, $65 you get 1140 dominoes, .06 per
8x40, $65 you get 780 dominoes, .08 per
8x50, $65 you get 600 dominoes, .11 per
10x50, $65 you get 510 dominoes, .13 per

[Gary Eneberg]

I like this machine alot, don't get me wrong guys.

I had not seen the pricing on the tenons sold by size. Where did you find the tenons sold like that? I'm really thinking about one of these and at that price the tenons are OK as well. I was looking at the 1100 package, but I forgot that you got the extra bits as well.

Gary

[Gary Keedwell]

ps - If anyone thinks the Domino is too expensive, then perhaps they should exercise their right not to buy it. Hmmm.


Maybe to the people who will be able to absorb the cost of this machine into their business, their minds are made up and it is a "no- brainer" But to the rest of us, especially the hobbyists, discussions on the merits and costs are very important as so we can exercise our right to decide.
To the people who have commited to buy it and have not really experienced it "hands-on".....well

[Bob Childress]

This won't be the last thread on the Domino, but it's a start. I can agree with those hobbyists who find it too expensive for the use they would get from it. The professionals who need volume will take to it like ducks to water.

That leaves the middle ground and a large one--smaller shops and certain hobbyists. I've said before here that for those for whom the pleasure of WW is in the process, the Domino may not be a good fit. But for those who, like me, derive more pleasure from a finished project and have a short attention span, the Domino will be a great addition to the shop. :)

And yes, I've ordered mine already. :rolleyes:

[Laurie Brown]

April 1st will change the way wood is joined forever. All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar.

If anybody wants to sell their old jointery tools for pennies on the dollar, I'll give them a good home! :)

[Craig Zettle]

To me making a mortice and tennon joint is a time consuming, hit or miss proposition, wrought with potential for error on any one of the steps. My favorite is the rough edge and face shoulder that, no matter how tight you clamp the joint, isn't flush with the stile because of a ragged cut from a dull blade, or the tennoning jig was set to high or low. I usually score the shoulder to establish it as cleanly as possible, but this is where the Domino got my interest. Being able to simply make a straight cross cut, then drill holes for the loose tennon would eliminate that "will it be flush or will I have to cut another one" problem.
Or the tennon (or mortise) that is ever so slightly off center, resulting in the dredded high/low shoulder. Fire up the drum sander!
The hidden details only impress us woodworkers, not the customer. As long as I can build it stout, and it stands the test of time, how I join the wood needs to be as drama free as possible.
I am always up for a different way to do any task if it saves me grief. I was a keystroke away from a Leigh MT jig when I got wind of the Domino. I guess you either trust the opinion of the few lucky folks that got to test drive it, or you wait for the masses to comment. Can you imagine what the first week of April will be like on all the WW sites?

[Frank Chaffee]

Through time immemorial, people have devised new tools to create useful and artistic objects. Every new technique and tool may be heralded, and rightfully applauded. Also, rediscovering or keeping alive old methods is laudable. I have traveled most continents on this earth, and have observed artisans, crafts persons, and manufacturers utilizing a vast array of methodologies to produce goods.

For every person on earth today, there exists a freedom of choice in how and with what tools to express oneself. For some it is whether to refine dyes from native plants for coloring, or to use store boughten dyes. Others may be deciding whether to continue cutting planks from logs with the two-man rip saw or to go to work in a diesel powered mill.

Sawmill Creek affords a relatively few of us earthlings the opportunity to help one another choose high tech tools that “fit”; within our means and for the purposes we have. For this forum, I think we can all be grateful that we can help one another and be helped in turn to that end.

I do not read the initial post of this thread to be at all “tongue in cheek”, as Mike Cutler has so kindly put it, rather, I find it to be a blatantly inflammatory post that challenges persons for whom the Domino may be a good investment to prove their decision or be damned in the eyes of those for whom it is not. Such an approach is antithetical to the free sharing of information we normally enjoy here.

Frank Chaffee

[Jim Dailey]

Hi Craig & Laurie,

Craig if I was in your position debating between the Leigh FMT & waiting for the Domino... I'd probably wait also.

Although I have a Domino "on order" with Bob Marino, I don't see the Domino replacing my Leigh FMT in my shop. From what I've read on the "site down-under" those that have both the FMT & "Domi" feel they compliment one another. Another point in addition to the ones you made about the Domino; is the Domino goes to the part or partially assembled piece, cabinet etc to be machined/mortised thus pre-assembly or post-assembly, where the Leigh FMT the part goes to the FMT to be mortised or have a tenon cut pre-assembly. And as you pointed out in the case of the Domino the pieces are cut to finished length, where in the case of the Leigh FMT (or M&T done by another method) you have to add the length of the tenon(s) to determine the cut size of your work piece.

I guess I'll wait & see this for myself how these to quality joining systems work, work in my shop & as some have indicated in the "site down under, work together.

One thing for sure is I will be paring down my collection of biscuit jointers. So Laurie if you want my old Freud biscuit jointer for $50 plus shipping it's for sale. :D For now I will be holding on to my Lamello...;)

Hope this helps, jim

[Al Willits]

I'm with Laurie, and will look for all them cheap power tools for sale, haven't much hope as I'm still waiting for a cheap PM or Uni TS from any of the EZ bunch who don't use their TS anymore.:D
Time will tell.
Did seem a bit overzealous, but he got us talking about it...:)

Al

[Art Mann]

It seems to me that the existence of this highly sought after machine could provide some enterprising woodworker or company with the opportunity to make some money selling aftermarket loose tenons at a reduced price. If it catches on, you can bet it will happen.

[Matt Day]

Does anyone know what trolling means?:rolleyes:

[Bruce Page]

Through time immemorial, people have devised new tools to create useful and artistic objects. Every new technique and tool may be heralded, and rightfully applauded. Also, rediscovering or keeping alive old methods is laudable. I have traveled most continents on this earth, and have observed artisans, crafts persons, and manufacturers utilizing a vast array of methodologies to produce goods.

For every person on earth today, there exists a freedom of choice in how and with what tools to express oneself. For some it is whether to refine dyes from native plants for coloring, or to use store boughten dyes. Others may be deciding whether to continue cutting planks from logs with the two-man rip saw or to go to work in a diesel powered mill.

Sawmill Creek affords a relatively few of us earthlings the opportunity to help one another choose high tech tools that “fit”; within our means and for the purposes we have. For this forum, I think we can all be grateful that we can help one another and be helped in turn to that end.

I do not read the initial post of this thread to be at all “tongue in cheek”, as Mike Cutler has so kindly put it, rather, I find it to be a blatantly inflammatory post that challenges persons for whom the Domino may be a good investment to prove their decision or be damned in the eyes of those for whom it is not. Such an approach is antithetical to the free sharing of information we normally enjoy here.

Frank Chaffee
Well said Frank!

[Joe Mioux]

YOu know...

For most readers here, we are participating at a hobbyist level.

With that said, part of the fun of our woodworking hobby is buying new tools. If you enjoy collecting tools as a hobby, continue.

For the pro's, you make your living with tools. If you find this tool helpful, Great!

Just because this Domino machine is expensive to some, a necessity for others, or just another trophy in a home shop shouldn't affect anyone else's disposition or cause anyone else to become angry, dismayed or otherwise be all buggered up.

It is a tool, if someone wants to buy it fine. This thread is about as goofy as the Festool v EZ debates. Pick one, buy one or don't buy one.

But what ever you do don't criticize, condemn or complain about someone else's purchase.

joe

[James Carmichael]

If anybody wants to sell their old jointery tools for pennies on the dollar, I'll give them a good home! :)

LOL, same here Laurie.

If anyone needs to clear out their old sliding tablesaw or multi-router to make room for the uber-joiner, why, I won't even charge you to haul them off:-)

[Gary Keedwell]

I still like what one poster said awhile back....The goal is the destination...but I enjoy the ride, too. I might be old fashioned, but I do get alot of satifaction when my mortise and tenon go together right. When my dovetails fit like a glove. I think they call it craftsmenship. Does anybody remember that quaint word? You know if something don't go together right, you stop and think where you went wrong and maybe think of another method. ( not sanding the heck out of it till they come together).
All right, before you guys jump all over my case, I can see where a real craftmen would not compromise his integrety by utilizing a floating mortise for certain applications. But I do not see this machine as the cure-all...one size fits it all, answer to woodworking problems.

It just seems to me that people are looking at this machine as if they want to put their projects together like some kind of kit or something. What am I missing?

Gary K.

[Alfred Clem]

Listen...carefully. Do you hear that laughter? It's faint. Must be a long distance away. Aha! Now I know where it's coming from...it's coming from hundreds of German elves, hard at work in their big Teutonic workshop deep in the forests of Wurtemburg. They just had this string of comments translated into Deutsch and they are laughing their little sides off!

They are saying (between chuckles), "Those rich Americans are getting all steamed up about a tool most have never seen, have no idea what it will cost or save, and still cannot wait until they get their sweaty little hands on it. All they do is argue while we here in our forest workshop work and work and work. We can hardly wait until Springtime! Think of all the Euros we will make just because they simply must play one-upmanship on their fellow woodworkers! What a great deal -- we make and sell Dominos, they make holes in wood and in their bank accounts, and everybody's happy! Indeed, we have created a perpetual-motion machine!"

[Pete Brown]

It just seems to me that people are looking at this machine as if they want to put their projects together like some kind of kit or something. What am I missing?

Gary K.

Each person gets satisfaction from a different part of the hobby. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people like screws, some people nails, some people floating tenons, and some regular M&T and dovetails.

If you're enjoying yourself, you must be doing something right :)

Pete

[Jerry Olexa]

One man's meat is another man's poison. Take your choice. :confused: :)

[Dan Lautner]

No my post was not tongue and cheek. The Domino is the most amazing invention I have seen in a long time. A hand held power tool can make strong joints on just about any type of work. Super fast (unlike Jigs and neaderthal method) super accurate (unlike Neanderthal) and super portable (unlike the slot mortiser). For people who are interested in actually building high quality things quickly this thing is a must have. You could spend 5k on a slot mortiser and have an inferior method of loose tenon joinery. Yes this thing is amazing.

Dan

[Mike Parzych]

Dan....do you do infommercials for a living?

[Gary Keedwell]

Dan....do you do infommercials for a living?
:D LOL Good one!!!

Gary K.;)

[Dave Falkenstein]

One thing is for certain - Domino creates a lot of interest and a lot of posting. This thread is almost half as long as the earlier one that took almost a month of posting to grow. This one is only two days old!!! Now if I can just make some sense out of all the viewpoints. I'll be back after I reread all the posts. Is it expensive??? Smile. Don't answer that!!!

[Dan Clark]

No my post was not tongue and cheek. The Domino is the most amazing invention I have seen in a long time. A hand held power tool can make strong joints on just about any type of work. Super fast (unlike Jigs and neaderthal method) super accurate (unlike Neanderthal) and super portable (unlike the slot mortiser). For people who are interested in actually building high quality things quickly this thing is a must have. You could spend 5k on a slot mortiser and have an inferior method of loose tenon joinery. Yes this thing is amazing.

Dan
Dan,

I love Festools. Great products. I got a bunch and love them all. And... I'm not sure if I can justify one, but I think the Domino is one of the most fascinating tools I've ever seen. If I can rationalize one in any way, shape or form, I'll grab one of those puppies. That said...

I think your choice of words was just a teeny bit over the top. Please lower the volume a little. There are two good reasons for this. 1) You'll have greater credibility. 2) If the demand is too high, I'll have difficulty getting one! :D

Dan.

[Raf Verbruggen]

I don't "need" a domino and it will not save me any money, I admit. But my next tool wil be that new Festool item ... because I like it ... I like and enjoy working with festool ! And I think a good hobby has to be pleasant ? Not ?

Did I need an Audi to bring me from A to B ?? Don't think so ... but I love my car ...

I can go on for hours ... We all (I live in Europe) have flashlights from "Maglite", pocket knives from "Coldsteel" or "SOG" and foldable pliers from "Leatherman" and I can assure you that we have good alternatives in Europe that cost less than half the price.

* I never asked myself why I have a flashlight from corrosion resistant aluminium that is used in airplanes ... to give me some light in the dark ...

* or a pocketknife from Coldsteel with some high grade steel blade that costs as much as 8 pocket knives from Opinel, a French company ... only to cut some rope ...

I like good equipment and quality tools ... and buying good tools is a part of the hobby.

I did not "need" my Festool TS or Router table, nor my Rotex sander, Festool Router, Plunge saw, CT 22, my MTF ... but I enjoy working with them everytime I go to my garage ... and that's what a hobby is all about.

[Gary Keedwell]

:D
Listen...carefully. Do you hear that laughter? It's faint. Must be a long distance away. Aha! Now I know where it's coming from...it's coming from hundreds of German elves, hard at work in their big Teutonic workshop deep in the forests of Wurtemburg. They just had this string of comments translated into Deutsch and they are laughing their little sides off!

They are saying (between chuckles), "Those rich Americans are getting all steamed up about a tool most have never seen, have no idea what it will cost or save, and still cannot wait until they get their sweaty little hands on it. All they do is argue while we here in our forest workshop work and work and work. We can hardly wait until Springtime! Think of all the Euros we will make just because they simply must play one-upmanship on their fellow woodworkers! What a great deal -- we make and sell Dominos, they make holes in wood and in their bank accounts, and everybody's happy! Indeed, we have created a perpetual-motion machine!"
LOL Thanks for the insight and the laugh!

Gary K.

[Paul Canaris]

I don't "need" a domino and it will not save me any money, I admit. But my next tool wil be that new Festool item ... because I like it ... I like and enjoy working with festool ! And I think a good hobby has to be pleasant ? Not ?

Did I need an Audi to bring me from A to B ?? Don't think so ... but I love my car ...

I can go on for hours ... We all (I live in Europe) have flashlights from "Maglite", pocket knives from "Coldsteel" or "SOG" and foldable pliers from "Leatherman" and I can assure you that we have good alternatives in Europe that cost less than half the price.

* I never asked myself why I have a flashlight from corrosion resistant aluminium that is used in airplanes ... to give me some light in the dark ...

* or a pocketknife from Coldsteel with some high grade steel blade that costs as much as 8 pocket knives from Opinel, a French company ... only to cut some rope ...

I like good equipment and quality tools ... and buying good tools is a part of the hobby.

I did not "need" my Festool TS or Router table, nor my Rotex sander, Festool Router, Plunge saw, CT 22, my MTF ... but I enjoy working with them everytime I go to my garage ... and that's what a hobby is all about.

Totally agree as regards quality products. If you can afford a better quality tool buy it. Nothing worse than the aggrevation that comes from working with marginal tools. Not sure I will need one of these myself, but I am willing to keep an open mind and see.

[Terry Fogarty]

April 1st will change the way wood is joined forever. All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar............ .........The Domino will do for woodworking what the elevator did for the skyscraper. These things sold out in europe in weeks so get them while you can. I'm in no way affiliated with festool.

Dan

Dan well said and you are almost 100% correct. Im not sure about the "All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar" but i do see where you are coming from.

The flaming and negative coments you are recieving are coming from those who have no idea at all what this new and brilliant machine can do, and I dont undestand why they are so negative:confused: Why not just ignore Domino threads if they feel the way they do.

I work for myself in a tiny shop making commision furniture on a small scale and have used the Domino almost every day for the last 8 months. It has changed the way my entire workshop is run and organised and also the way i aproach my woodwork in construction and design.

Three days after getting my Domino i new i would never use my Dewalt Bisc joiner again and sold it. A very, very inferior machine in every way. The two machins are like chalk and cheese. Its not until you have used a Domino that you realise just what an ordinary, basic, flawed and extremely limited power tool the biscuit joiner is. Its ok if thats all you have and are used to it, but.... The Domino is SPECIAL:o

We probably havnt seen a revolutionary advancement in the workshop since the Table Saw was invented, and yes, i know i will be shouted down for saying that, but come back 2 months after the Domino has been released and then flame me.


The many vocal opponents have never had that opportunity even to touch one liitle own use one, and for some unknown reason seem to take great delight in trying to put it down.
But those who have seen and used it are the ones saying this Domino is the "best thing we have seen for years" Their must be something in that dont you think?

(and i dont have any affiliation with Festool)

[Al Willits]

""""""""""
The flaming and negative comments you are receiving are coming from those who have no idea at all what this new and brilliant machine can do, and I don't understand why they are so negative:confused: Why not just ignore Domino threads if they feel the way they do.
""""""""""

Well, as someone who has neither flamed or used the Domino, I find this topic very close to the EZ topic, this tool will either walk on water for some, or be to expensive a tool/not needed for what it does to others.
Like I said before, time will tell.

I do think that posting, this thing will make everything else obsolete, is a open invitation to discussion, both pro and con, and if con views are considered flaming, maybe ya ought to rethink posting in this style, does sounds like a infomercial.
In another topic, opposing views were considered whining by one, doesn't seem a very intelligent attitude to have.
imho
Al

[Terry Fogarty]

I do think that posting, this thing will make everything else obsolete, is a open invitation to discussion, both pro and con, and if con views are considered flaming, maybe ya ought to rethink posting in this style, does sounds like a infomercial.
In another topic, opposing views were considered whining by one, doesn't seem a very intelligent attitude to have.
imho
Al

First, i never said it will make "everything" obsolete, just the biscuit joiner. All those i know of who have a Domino all say that and have also sold theirs.

And if it sounds like a info commercial to you then sorry, but its the thoughts of someone who has used one for eight months, and i know just how good and special this tool is.

Around June/July when the it starts to get established then you will see a remarkable turn around in the posts regarding the Domino. Their will be very little negative comments just post after post of tips, uses and praise. Also debate/negative/possitive comments are great, but i just hate it when negative stuff comes from people who have never seen or used one. Its fine to be sceptical, because i was when they first came out, but posting over and over negatives with no factual basis just dosnt seem right

[John Bailey]

I would just like to remind everyone to keep the comments, and the tone of comments civil. This is a good subject, but one that creates passionate comments that can be interpreted as offensive.

It's, sometimes, hard to express oneself on the internet, without benefit of eye contact, a wry grin, or a twinkle in the eye, and get your views across - as they are intended. The best two rules I've ever heard, about internet discussion, are don't be offensive, and if someone else is - don't take offense.

Thanks for your understanding.

John

[Jim Dailey]

Jack,

Aren't one of the guys for "down under"?

Your description of how after the Domino introduced come June/July the posts will change to "hits & helpful ideas" mirrors what I've seen on the site "down under" at the following;

xxxx

Thank You for your insights,

jim

[Rennie Heuer]

I went to the Festool web site and this looks interesting and I see how you 'could' rework your shop around it - but - $660 for just the tool and another $300 - $400 in accessories?

I think I'll wait for the PC $200 version to come out.

[Greg Ladd]

I, for one, am looking forward to someday having a Domino. I certainly am nothing more than a hobbiest but I cannot think of too many other power tools that appear to be as useful.

For utilitarian jobs such as carcase building, it looks to be a real time saver. A few Domino tenons and a few pocket screws would seem to me to make a virtually indistructable kitchen cabinet. For panel glue ups...well it looks to be a significant improvement over my current option. I cannot remember how many times I have been disappointed with the quality of a panel glue up due to thickness variations of biscuits and the not-quite-right slot size that allow pieces of a panel to shift slightly.

In regards to price, like many others, I truly enjoy making joinery by hand but on certain projects it simply isn't the best way to spend my time. My spare time has a value that keeps going up as life gets busier and busier.
I imagine that if I decide to buy one, the dollar cost will be forgotten rather quickly.

For example, I don't remember how much I spent on my table saw but I seem to feel it was money well spent. I actually am glad that I decided not to cut everything with a handsaw. It certainly would let me feel that I am building things as a true craftsman but it certainly wouldn't be as enjoyable for me personally.

I cannot even begin to tell how many times someone has scoffed at me for buying a tool that to them seemed extravagant or a total waste of money. It also seems that oftentimes, those same people are calling me from time to time to see if they can come over and use the very same item that they felt I was foolish to buy.

As always, one man's folly is another man's treasure.

Greg Ladd

[Al Willits]

I stand corrected on the "Every" part, but on the other hand you said "All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar" which is a bit more than just biscuit jointer's, we'll call it even ...:D

Don't feel sorry I think it sounds like a info, just voicing my opinion, which as long as it's in the guidelines of the forum is allowed.
Take it for what its worth, just a opinion.

Al

[Terry Fogarty]

I stand corrected on the "Every" part, but on the other hand you said "All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar" which is a bit more than just biscuit jointer's, we'll call it even ...:D



All:) actualy if you look i was replying to Dan and i said "Dan well said and you are almost 100% correct. Im not sure about the "All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar" but i do see where you are coming from. " as i said its only the biscuit joiner that will become obsolete, and it will. We will have to wait a few years until other manufacturers overcome patent issues and develope simila machines that sell around the $200. Then no one in their right mind would continue with out dated biscuit joinery



Please tone done your enthusiasm a few decibels. Most woodworkers I know usually act in a prudent way, that is more becomming.

Gary K.

Surly you carnt be serious;) Im not alowed to show enthusiasm for the best thing i have had in 17 years of working with wood. And most woodworkers i know are enthusiastic, energetic mob who definitely dont act in a prudent way:D

[Craig Zettle]

Jack, your information is EXACTLY why I am a member. You are indeed a rare breed right now, someone who has actually used a Domino. Don't take this thread too seriously. I remember when Minimax came out with the E16 bandsaw and the guys caught wind of it here. I already had mine for 6 months, and gave my opinion of the machine based on real world use. I was told a few things, like the machine wasn't made in Italy (its made by Centauro) by at least 2 guys, and, well the misinformation went on and still goes on to this day.
Even though I personally would like to test drive every tool I buy, I don't live close enough to any tool dealers so I have to use a combination of internet research and testimonials from users like yourself. Keep it up. I count on it.

[Terry Fogarty]

The same people who whine about too much negativity are usually guilty about being too joyous of a tool they have not even had in their hands yet.


Gary:) I hope your not suggesting i dont have one:D

As it happend i first started to rave about the Domino on this forum way back on 06-27-2006 here -
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=38636

and the following day showed one of the joins i was doing with it. (this forums own Rick Christopherson has also developed a brilliant and simple way of doing it)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=38779

[Rick Christopherson]

Please tone done your enthusiasm a few decibels. Most woodworkers I know usually act in a prudent way, that is more becomming.

Gary K.I find it rather ironic that this is the first posting you made that wasn't screaming with all bold type, yet you are chastising someone for their enthusiasm.

Being one of the very few woodworkers in North America with a couple of Dominoes at my disposal and plenty of mortises under my belt, I would have enjoyed posting some informative answers in this thread for those that were curious, but I'm not going to shout over the din caused by people that oppose the tool sight unseen.

You have so much animosity for an inanimate object, that you are posting several times a day to oppose this, as though someone was forcing you to buy one under penalty of law (and if memory serves me, you did this in the first thread too). Every woodworker has their own styles and methods, and they have the right to pursue their hobby in their own ways without backlash, ridicule, or negativity.

For those that are interested in seeing Domino actually being used for a live project, someone else in this thread mentioned my Construction Blog (http://waterfront-woods.home.att.net). Since it is applicable to my posting, I have repeated the link.

[Gary Keedwell]

:o" Surly you carnt be serious;) Im not alowed to show enthusiasm for the best thing i have had in 17 years of working with wood. And most woodworkers i know are enthusiastic, energetic mob who definitely dont act in a prudent way"

:DLOL Here in America, most woodworkers are also enthusiastic and energetic individuals who usually don't hang around with mobs. lol. If you ever went to a woodworking show here in New England, you would run into the most prudent , polite, reserved bunch you ever come across. Nothing like the rowdies from "down under". lol;) There definetly are alot of conservative Yankees, here in my backyard, who still watch the pennies comming into and leaving the household!
Gary K.
Edited... I apologize for the bold type. On another forum I had complaints that my type was too thin and unreadable. Could someone tell me if this is OK? Again, I didn't mean it as yelling....I'm sorry that it was taken that way. Thanks

[Terry Fogarty]

For those that are interested in seeing Domino actually being used for a live project, someone else in this thread mentioned my Construction Blog (http://waterfront-woods.home.att.net). Since it is applicable to my posting, I have repeated the link.

Great Blog:D Im hanging to see pages 8, 9 and 10. Hope their not to far away;)

[Pete Bradley]

So guys who have one -- how did you get it?

Pete

[Jim Becker]

Pete, tool manufacturers often ask certain woodworkers to do long-term testing of a project in "real life". Rick is an example of that. Others are not in North America and have had access to the Domino for some time now.

[Don Bergren]

The Domino is a very interesting tool. I've followed it as the discussions have gone on, and the video and pictures I've seen are very interesting. One of the things that I've noticed is how infectious the Domino fever is. I remember back when biscuit joiners were the new rage, and I just had to have one. I bought an inexpensive one and after awhile I decided that I needed a better one. So I bought a better one. And why not; it did everything one could ask for. The perfect solution!

Today my biscuit joiner sits idle and I can't remember the last time that I used it. I finally realized that I was using the biscuit joiner for a lot of things that it didn't need to be used for. I don't blame anyone else for this. I was the one who oversold it to myself.

The Domino reminds me a bit of the biscuit joiner craze. I've already seen photos and heard testimonials that show all kinds of uses for it. And I got pretty excited as I thought of all that could be if I owned a Domino. And then I remembered my poor lonesome biscuit joiner. It must feel a bit like the Maytag repair man these days.

My view is that in all the excitement about the Domino, we are seeing displays of users doing great things with it as they experiment with it's capabilities. But one thing I noticed is that a lot of what is being done with the Domino are things that really don't need to be joined by loose tenons. Cabinet boxes are one example, and there are others. It's a very exciting tool, but it is currently being promoted for doing a lot of things that don't necessarily need to be joined that way.

The Domino will be great for lots of things, but it isn't going to be the wonder tool of the century. Most folks don't do loose tenon joinery on the jobsite. Most folks are already using woodworking techniques that don't require owning a Domino. For me there are things that it would be great for, but I already do them without problems. It's just a hobby to help me relax, and production speed is not a big issue. I don't think I need to take the Domino plunge at this time.

For the pros, and Per Swensen comes to mind quickly, I think it will be a very useful addition. But for most of us who are hobbyists, I think it will end up being a cool tool that we use on a fairly limited basis.

Before the crowd gathers to start the fire and warm the tar, while the rest go get the feathers, I do want to say this. I think it's a very cool tool and I'm glad that so many folks are excited about it. I look forward to seeing all of the pictures of what folks do with their new tool, and I hope that I am proven wrong. I have no doubt that it will bring pleasure to many, and in the end that is what our hobby is really about.

But I do ask those of you who buy the Domino to do me one favor. If you do buy one and one day find that it gets very little use, please tell it about my poor lonely biscuit joinner. Old yellow could use a pen pal. :D

[Bob Marino]

So guys who have one -- how did you get it?

Pete

I went to "back channels" in Europe to get mine last fall. Switched out the plug and am ready to go. Only thing is, I can't hook this Euro model to my CT 22 vac, so I just keep the vac running attached to the tool. No biggie..for until the USA version gets to my shop.
Bob

[Terry Fogarty]

One of the things that I've noticed is how infectious the Domino fever is.

Howdy Don:) How true. The one thing i have found with those who own a Domino, is they become very, very protective over it and its new found reputation and cannot bear any negative comments at all. Of all the tools/machines i have owned over the last 17 years this is the only one that i have had an overwhelming desire to constantly want to shout loudly about and give "counseling" to those non believers;) :D



But one thing I noticed is that a lot of what is being done with the Domino are things that really don't need to be joined by loose tenons. Cabinet boxes are one example, and there are others. It's a very exciting tool, but it is currently being promoted for doing a lot of things that don't necessarily need to be joined that way.



This is why Domino owners are so passionate. Prior to getting mine i would use loose tenon joinery about once a month at most. Thing is, loose tenons wernt used in those ways because it was to much of a hassel and pain in the bum to cut them by hand or setting up a jig for a router or morticing machine.

All of a sudden i (we) have a small portable machine where i can plunge a 5,6,8 or 10mm mortice at three pre-set widths with five pre-set depths and eight pre-set heights. Add to that, two built in adjustable spring loaded pins 25mm in from each edge for super fast and accurate edge alignment and a centering plate on the base for perfect center alignment for morticing rails down to 20mm thick.... All done with "perfect" accuracy and super, super quick speed. You go to do a task now and think to your self "Hang on? i can Domi that" and you do, then stand back and marvel at what you have just done.

Im using it for things i never though i would need it for. A small example is the drawer below. It mightnt seem like much but its just one of so many different uses i have found that are quick and accurate. This drawer (when being constructed) is a simple rebated drawer sitting in a jig to hold it square and lightly clamped at the top and then Domied. Very simple, quick and very, very strong and looks fantastic (im over dovetails on drawers just for the sake of it)

Just keep an open mind (and walet;) )about the Domino:D

[Rick Christopherson]

So guys who have one -- how did you get it?

PeteContrary to another posting, I am not a tool tester for Festool; it's a little more complicated than that. I got my first Domino when it was still a prototype, but it was a cutaway model that was on loan. This was returned to Festool so it could be used for marketing. The next model I got was one of the first 120-volt production units out of the factory last summer. This was the one I used to write the new Owner's Manual, and is also the one shown in my Web Blog.

My second Domino was the coolest of all. I was part of the Editor's Trip to Germany this past December, and we got to watch as a series of U.S. models were being built (they build in batches of 12-24 units in a run). We arrived at the line as the last unit in the batch was being assembled. I looked down at the production record and noticed my name was printed on the docket for the unit being built while we watched. It was assembled, tested, packed into a Systainer with my name on it, and then handed to me by the production engineer. Way Cool!

The third Domino is just a mistake because I got lumped in with the magazine editors on the trip, and it was supposed to be for product reviews and testing by the magazines.

[David Dundas]

Like Jack Dyer, I have owned a Domino for several months now. Unlike him, I am just a hobbyist, but the Domino has made my hobby even more enjoyable, since it has relieved me of the tedious aspects of mortise and tenon joinery, and enabled me to make perfectly accurate joints very quickly and easily. I strongly disagree with the proposition that the Domino will be a passing fad, or that because few people previously used floating tenon joinery, the Domino may become another white elephant in the workshop.

Actuallly, the possession of a Domino will now enable woodworkers to undertake projects with numerous mortise and tenon joints, especially those in the Arts & Crafts style, that previously might have seemed altogether too intimidating.

I agree entirely with Bob Childress, that, if your main satisfaction from woodworking comes from contemplating the finished product rather than in exercising a manual skill, then the Domino is eminently worth buying, even for the hobbyist, if you can afford it. On the other hand, if you rejoice in using shoulder planes and other hand tools, the Domino may not be for you.

The Domino is particularly useful in chair-making. I cut all the mortises in these chair parts in an hour or so.

[I have to confess that I don't understand the hierarchical structure of threads on this forum; so perhaps this post may be shunted into a little used siding, and hence be ignored.]

David Dundas (an Aussie)

[David Dundas]

Hmm; just as I feared, it is Post #1 in a cul-de-sac. Oh well. I tried.

David

[Jim Dailey]

Hi Rick,

I'm just south of you & I am heading up to the Cities for the weekend....

I would be more that happy to take one of the Domino off your hands , er ah I mean "loan" until the one I have order comes in...

I too am awaiting the additional pages to your blog. I literally stayed up way too late one evening watch with anticipation as the pages slowly, slowly, slowly filled via my 26kb dial up connection..... But well worth the wait!!


Humbly "Thank You for Sharing" your blog,
jim

[Terry Fogarty]

The Domino is particularly useful in chair-making. I cut all the mortises in these chair parts in an hour or so.


David Dundas (an Aussie)

Interesting chair parts. Id love to see a photo of the completed chair:D

[Jim Dailey]

Hi Dave,

[I have to confess that I don't understand the hierarchical structure of threads on this forum; so perhaps this post may be shunted into a little used siding, and hence be ignored.]

David Dundas (an Aussie)

I did find your posts!!!

I was frustrated by the same seemingly disorder... but in the upper right hand corner is "display mods" You can switch the order so its chronological.

Hope this helps,

jim

[Terry Fogarty]

And if by chance anyone is interested, the two photos below are of the Hall Table belonging to the Dominoed Drawer shown above. :)

The first photo shows the entire table construction using the Domino. The beauty of the machine is (apart from the small center muntin) "no" rules, tapes or pencils were used to mark any mortice out. That is taken care of by the brilliant indexing system built in to the fence or the additional out rigger indexing pins. Note the shallow mortices alont the top and side rails. They are to insert the table buttons to secure the top.


Photo 2 is the finished unit. This hasnt been glued up yet as its a dry fit. That is one of my favourite aspects of this system. Being able to dry fit and have it "rock solid" and move it around the workshop shows just how precise it is.

[Jim Dailey]

Hi Jack,

Great photo's!!

Your comments about " "no" rules, tapes or pencils were used to mark any mortice out. That is taken care of by the brilliant indexing system built in to the fence or the additional out rigger indexing pins." Is eye opening....

Grant the nye sayers will say you could build it with biscuits... You certainly can't with biscuits "Being able to dry fit and have it "rock solid" and move it around the workshop shows just how precise it is." WOW!!!

I did say WOW!!! jim

[David Dundas]

Interesting chair parts. Id love to see a photo of the completed chair:D

Jack,

I think you might have seen it before:D , but here you go.

David

[Mike Parzych]

I really don't have opinions one way or the other on the tool itself. But what I find annoying is the apparent shilling for it. I noticed that the greatest enthusiats for it seem to have very few posts on the forum and a clearly "advertising copy" post style : all the superlatives used, infomercial-style claims that it will change your life and guarantee your entry into Heaven, etc. etc...

I really don't feel these ppl are just here to share an experience, but have definite agendas. I don't think the forum should be used for advertising.

[Gary Keedwell]

I really don't have opinions one way or the other on the tool itself. But what I find annoying is the apparent shilling for it. I noticed that the greatest enthusiats for it seem to have very few posts on the forum and a clearly "advertising copy" post style : all the superlatives used, infomercial-style claims that it will change your life and guarantee your entry into Heaven, etc. etc...

I really don't feel these ppl are just here to share an experience, but have definite agendas. I don't think the forum should be used for advertising.
Mike,
I agree totally. What bothers me the most is when you post anything but superatives, it is taken as negativty. It is all one way with these guys. You would think you were insulting their mother or sister if you try to talk reasonable.
And what are their motives? All I want to know is the pro's and con's of this "new" machine so I can make my own reasonable decision.
It is like going into a used car lot and trying to look over a car and have a yammering salemen behind me telling me how great the car is and when I ask him what is wrong with the car ...he gets mad!!! LOL
Respectfully,
Gary K.

[Al Willits]

Those that feel we were referring to the original post as a infomercial, might remember we are subjected to thousands, maybe millions of commercials in our life, all stating their product is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
A bit of skepticism is natural, a low keyed approach usually gets more attention in my experience.
Right or wrong, seems to be that way, so if there is some resistance to believing your product slices bread better than anything else. least you should understand why you get the reaction you do.

Like I said before, haven't a clue about the Domino, and it may be a great tool, time will tell.
Also forums are hit by people who just want to promote a product, mainly for financial gain, sometimes hard to separate them from the good guys.

Al...who just bought his biscuit joiner and would at least like to use it before he throws it away....:D

[David Dundas]

I really don't have opinions one way or the other on the tool itself. But what I find annoying is the apparent shilling for it. I noticed that the greatest enthusiats for it seem to have very few posts on the forum and a clearly "advertising copy" post style : all the superlatives used, infomercial-style claims that it will change your life and guarantee your entry into Heaven, etc. etc...

I really don't feel these ppl are just here to share an experience, but have definite agendas. I don't think the forum should be used for advertising.

Mike,

I may have very few posts on the forum; that is because I only joined a few weeks ago, and my main loyalty is to an Aussie forum. However, neither I nor Jack Dyer, the only two owners of the machine to have posted here, I believe, apart from the American dealers who own pre-release machines, have any commercial interest in Festool. We are both merely trying to give honest opinions based on fairly extensive experience. We have different perspectives, since Jack makes a living from building custom furniture, whereas I am simply a hobbyist, who builds furniture in my retirement to give away to relatives.

It is a bit disappointing to be accused, without any evidence other than a 'feeling', of having a commercial axe to grind.

David Dundas

[Jim Becker]

Contrary to another posting, I am not a tool tester for Festool; it's a little more complicated than that.

Rick, if I misrepresented your situation/opportunity, my appologies. I was trying to keep it simple. But I'm glad that someone with your skill and insights has the opportunity to do these extensive "first looks"!

[Jim Becker]

What bothers me the most is when you post anything but superatives, it is taken as negativty.

Perhaps this old adage comes to mind? "It's not what you say, but how you say it." That applies to both folks enthusiastic and those skeptical, but the latter really need to take more care as there is a greater tendency to offend.

As to the subject of this discussion, this is an obviously well-built and thought out tool that many will find useful. There will be some that would like to utilize this tool, but will be unable to budget for it. There will be others that can not imagine using it in the least. There will be some who like the idea but feel comfortable with their current methods. And there are some who have already ordered the machine and anxiously await putting it to use in their work, whatever that may be.

My challenge to those who have no interest in buying and/or using this tool is to think beyond their personal convictions and needs and consider what is good about the tool and how it might influence the industry; both to innovate/adapt and to maybe, at least try, to emulate the vendor's penchant for building quality. Even a non-Festool owner should be able to do that with a smile.

[Gary Keedwell]

"As to the subject of this discussion, this is an obviously well-built and thought out tool that many will find useful. There will be some that would like to utilize this tool, but will be unable to budget for it. There will be others that can not imagine using it in the least. There will be some who like the idea but feel comfortable with their current methods. And there are some who have already ordered the machine and anxiously await putting it to use in their work, whatever that may be.

My challenge to those who have no interest in buying and/or using this tool is to think beyond their personal convictions and needs and consider what is good about the tool and how it might influence the industry; both to innovate/adapt and to maybe, at least try, to emulate the vendor's penchant for building quality. Even a non-Festool owner should be able to do that with a smile."

Jim...Very well said. I think if your sentiments were in the original post......well...Read the original one again and you can better understand the reactions.
Gary K. __________________

[Mike Parzych]

Dave Dundas - Sorry, I wasn't placing of you in that category!

[Jim Becker]

Frankly, Gary...I took the original post by the OP tongue-in-cheek. But I can appreciate the opposite reaction that some are having. I remain in my position that this tool is good for all of us, whether we choose to buy and use it or not, because it has the power to be very stimulating to the woodworking community in many very positive ways.

Assuming I can find the time, I may get the opportunity to play with a Domino sooner, rather than later, and if that happens, I'll make every effort to post my own experiential impressions.

[Rick Christopherson]

Gary,
People are interested in hearing about a new tool. They want to know the positives and the negatives so they can decide if it is something that would work for them, but it is postings like yours that are intended to sequester the information. When someone like myself pins you to the wall regarding your hostility, you quickly backpeddle for a short time and claim that you are only interested in learning.

But the fact is, I have read back through your postings on this topic, and you are not interested in learning anything! You haven't asked a single question, well, except for the one I quoted below. You’ve made up your mind about the tool, and you want to make sure no one else can learn about it either. You attempt to chase away those that know about this tool by insulting them.

In my very first posting on this topic in the previous thread I showed readers what the tool can be used for and do. Your response to me was nothing more than an attempt to insult me. You didn’t ask questions, you didn’t try to learn anything, you vigorously tried to shut the discussion down.

Rick C.

And your point is? Blah...blah...blah...expensive...blah..blah...blah ...unnecessary...
So I ask again....what is your point?

Gary K. My point was that I was showing people how it could be used, and your response was to insult me! And that you did!

You’ve insulted other people in this discussion by implying that a “real craftsman” wouldn’t use one. I know for a fact that the people you have insulted in this thread have far more skill and craftsmanship than you will ever dream.

If you want to criticize the tool, then do it, I’ll even help you. It is expensive. Now that we have that criticism out of the way, what other problems do you see with the tool.

So the question is, how long will your backpeddling last this time before reverting back to your animosity. If you don’t understand this, then go back and re-read all of your postings in these two threads.

[Pete Bradley]

I really don't have opinions one way or the other on the tool itself. But what I find annoying is the apparent shilling for it. I noticed that the greatest enthusiats for it seem to have very few posts on the forum and a clearly "advertising copy" post style

I agree Mike. Whether intentional or not, some posts here came off like the "independent" rants one sees on Amazon.

Let's face it folks, it's a tool. I don't know what creates such religious fervor around Festool, SawStop, etc., but the signal to noise ratio is consistently low.

Hmmm...Could I bring down the SMC server by posting a question like: "Can I run my Domino and my SawStop off the same 220V dryer circuit?":D

Pete

[Greg Funk]

ILet's face it folks, it's a tool. I don't know what creates such religious fervor around Festool, SawStop, etc., but the signal to noise ratio is consistently low.


I think you just raised the noise level by .1dB...

[Don Bergren]

My challenge to those who have no interest in buying and/or using this tool is to think beyond their personal convictions and needs and consider what is good about the tool and how it might influence the industry; both to innovate/adapt and to maybe, at least try, to emulate the vendor's penchant for building quality. Even a non-Festool owner should be able to do that with a smile.

The industry may try to emulate the Domino, but I don't believe that there will be an overall change in how things are developed and produced. An example of this is the Festool circular saw. Users who own it all seem to love it, and speak passionately about the quality of construction. The reality is that the Festool saw is not new to the industry as a whole, and obviously not viewed as a threat to the industry because we are not seeing any efforts to emulate the design and quality of the saw. The saw may be great and have some features that some feel they can't live without, but the industry makes no effort to chase Festool’s product because the user base doesn't require or demand that it does.

Another example is the Lamello biscuit joiner. It's a very high quality machine that the industry did work to emulate. But the industry didn't strive to create something that was equal or better, it strove to provide a product that attracted the most sales. And users supported that philosophy with their wallets.

From what we've all been seeing over the years, it's pretty safe to say that overall it's not as much about quality, as it is about sales. Niche markets aren't viewed as an overall threat. I do hope that the Domino will stir the industry to seek innovation and higher quality, but I really feel that it will remain business as usual within the industry. Change may one day come about, but in the meantime Festool will remain a little guy in a world of giants. The real question is, does Festool even want to go toe to toe with the industry at this point? Perhaps Festool is content with their niche market and happy with slower long term growth.

and....


I remain in my position that this tool is good for all of us, whether we choose to buy and use it or not, because it has the power to be very stimulating to the woodworking community in many very positive ways.

I think that this tool will have a great benefit to the manufacturer in terms of growth, but I don't see it revolutionizing the industry as a whole. I would say that it has the potential to be very stimulating to the woodworking community in many ways, but that in itself doesn't guarantee radical improvements in what will be offered by the industry as a whole. But who knows, perhaps I'm just too cynical about the industry. :(

[Terry Fogarty]

I agree Mike. Whether intentional or not, some posts here came off like the "independent" rants one sees on Amazon.



Sorry if all i wanted to do was share my thoughts and some photos on the tool this thread just happens to be discussing. Im also sorry this tool gives me so much joy and enthusiasm. So for you Pete, Mike and Gary you can stop stressing out because im not going to bother again. If all im going to recieve is abuse and being accused of selling like an "info-commercial" and "independent" rants one sees on Amazon, then id rather take my Domi and go elsewhere

Happy Dominoing to the rest of you:D

[David Dundas]

Pete,

I suppose it is fair enough to entertain some scepticism about claims made by people who are Festool dealers or magazine editors who have been flown to Germany by the company to inspect the Domino factory, although it would be foolish of them to make exaggerated claims about the Domino. But Jack Dyer and myself, who have used the Domino in Australia for at least six months, have NO commercial connection to Festool, and have no motivation other than to provide information on the tool to members of this forum who have not had the opportunity of seeing the tool for themselves.

I believe that for professional cabinetmakers the need to possess this tool is a no-brainer, since it can greatly increase productivity. For hobbyists like myself, it is much more an open question; the decision will depend largely on your attitude to your hobby. If you do woodwork mainly because you enjoy the exercise of manual skills in the stress-free environment of your shop, the Domino is probably not for you. On the other hand, if you enjoy using the most efficient methods of producing a high-quality piece of furniture, then you should consider the Domino. Whether you actually decide to lay out a fair amount of money to acquire one will depend on how seriously you take your hobby.

The fact is that most American woodworkers, if they really want a Domino, can probably easily afford one. They might perhaps have to decide to buy a Ford or a Toyota rather than a BMW to facilitate the purchase.

It would be perfectly possible, if you only want to make a few dozen mortise-and-tenon joints per year, to get many of the advantages of the Domino system, by using a router to rout 5/16" mortises and then using 8 mm thick domino tenons as floating tenons. Those unfamiliar with the metric system may not be aware that 5/16" is almost exactly equal to 8 millimeters.

I hope I have made it clear that I am not a fanatical advocate for the Domino. I just believe that the serious hobbyist who is affluent enough to be able to indulge himself or herself by buying high-quality tools, the Domino is well worth considering. I have no quarrel with those who prefer to cut their mortises with hand tools - it just so happens that I do not. But it is futile to rubbish the Domino because it has little appeal to hand-tool enthusiasts.

David Dundas

[Dave Avery]

Sorry if all i wanted to do was share my thoughts and some photos on the tool this thread just happens to be discussing. Im also sorry this tool gives me so much joy and enthusiasm. So for you Pete, Mike and Gary you can stop stressing out because im not going to bother again. If all im going to recieve is abuse and being accused of selling like an "info-commercial" and "independent" rants one sees on Amazon, then id rather take my Domi and go elsewhere

Happy Dominoing to the rest of you:D


Stay Jack, please. The negative guys all seem to leave when they figure out that nobody else is laughing when they type 'LOL'. This really is a great place. Best. Dave.

[John Bailey]

Hey Guys,

Let's, please, try and stop the personal insinuations. Again, I'm going to say this is an important topic with passionate thoughts on both sides.

Keep your posts toward the topic and not with the folks posting. We will have to lock the thread otherwise, and that would be a shame.

Remember - Don't Offend and Don't take Offense.

Thanks, again, for your understanding.

John

[Richard Keller]

April 1st will change the way wood is joined forever. All your joinery tools will soon be worth pennies on the dollar. Festool is bringing precision German joining techniques to America. Pull your wallets out and get ready to build museum quality furniture in a fraction of the time it takes the "pros". Why buy a $30 press board bookshelf from Ikea when you could craft one from exotic hardwood cheaper and faster. The Domino will do for woodworking what the elevator did for the skyscraper. These things sold out in europe in weeks so get them while you can. I'm in no way affiliated with festool.

Dan

While the Domino is a cool tool, it's just that. A cool tool. I have been sticking wood to wood for fifteen years now, and I don't see me rushing out to buy one. I also doubt that my jointer (I consider this the most basic joinery tool one can own) being worth less - or worthless. :)

Richard.

[Mark Carlson]

Jack,

Your descriptions and pictures (and a few others) of what you've actually done with the Domino is the only reason I've been following this thread. Keep on posting. My next set of drawers will use the technique you showed. We'll the next set of drawers after April 1st that is.


I might need to track down that aussie forum you mentioned.

~mark

[Per Swenson]

OK


I am going to step in it.

First Folks, I have one.

Is it all that it is advertised?

More.

For some one like me, who does this all day long.

This tool is nothing short of revolutionary.

Besides it's easy and intuitive if you have ever used a biscuit jointer

for more than 20 minutes.

I am pleased as punch that my competion is down at Clancys as we speak

burning C-notes at the bar and will never know about this tool.

Now about the expense, in High end finish work it's not existent.

This tool simply pays for itself faster then any other I own.

As a hobbiest can you justify a grand?

That depends on you, your methods of work and your time expectations.

Want flawless joints quick? Domino.

I hope my reputation on this forum for telling it like it is, or as I see it,

will be taken into consideration, when I say, "This will change the way I work"

Forever.

Per

[Bob Marino]

The industry may try to emulate the Domino, but I don't believe that there will be an overall change in how things are developed and produced. An example of this is the Festool circular saw. Users who own it all seem to love it, and speak passionately about the quality of construction. The reality is that the Festool saw is not new to the industry as a whole, and obviously not viewed as a threat to the industry because we are not seeing any efforts to emulate the design and quality of the saw. The saw may be great and have some features that some feel they can't live without, but the industry makes no effort to chase Festool’s product because the user base doesn't require or demand that it does.

Another example is the Lamello biscuit joiner. It's a very high quality machine that the industry did work to emulate. But the industry didn't strive to create something that was equal or better, it strove to provide a product that attracted the most sales. And users supported that philosophy with their wallets.

From what we've all been seeing over the years, it's pretty safe to say that overall it's not as much about quality, as it is about sales. Niche markets aren't viewed as an overall threat. I do hope that the Domino will stir the industry to seek innovation and higher quality, but I really feel that it will remain business as usual within the industry. Change may one day come about, but in the meantime Festool will remain a little guy in a world of giants. The real question is, does Festool even want to go toe to toe with the industry at this point? Perhaps Festool is content with their niche market and happy with slower long term growth.

and....



I think that this tool will have a great benefit to the manufacturer in terms of growth, but I don't see it revolutionizing the industry as a whole. I would say that it has the potential to be very stimulating to the woodworking community in many ways, but that in itself doesn't guarantee radical improvements in what will be offered by the industry as a whole. But who knows, perhaps I'm just too cynical about the industry. :(

Don,

You have raised some good points here, but I would just want to respond to a couple of comments. I am a Festool dealer, but not an employee, so I don't have all the inside info. However, Festool has been around in Europe for over 80 years. In that time, and while remaining a private company, they have become the industry leaders (largest market share/sales) there in the woodworking, cabinet making, flooring, automotive painting and perhaps other industries.
Their saws have been around since the 1960's and in Europe have indeed been "copied" by other companies. I think Bosch has made something similar recently. A bit different, but essentially incorporating many of Festoool's features and adding some of their own.
The Festool Rotex is a dual mode sander, now there are others - that's a good thing.
Festool has been in the USA for about 10 years and at this point in time, Festool USA has come to be in the top five countries for Festool. I think they have every intention of going toe to toe here, just not on the basis of price.

Bob

[Richard Wolf]

If Per says it's so, it must be so!

Richard

[David Dundas]

Jack,

Your descriptions and pictures (and a few others) of what you've actually done with the Domino is the only reason I've been following this thread. Keep on posting. My next set of drawers will use the technique you showed. We'll the next set of drawers after April 1st that is.


I might need to track down that aussie forum you mentioned.

~mark

Mark,

That should not be too difficult; a Google search for 'Australian woodworking forum' gives the url at the top of the list. I have no idea why this forum disallows links to other forums, since they can easily be found by a Google search anyway; and I doubt that Sawmill Creek members would jump ship en masse if they were to find another worthwhile forum in the Antipodes.

David

[Dan Lee]

I've read most of this thread and wonder isn't the JDS Multi Router(at atleast 2x cost) a comparable cousin to the Domino? Wouldn't that be a cost comparasion as opposed to a biscut joiner?

Anybody have experience with both?

Is some of the underlying discussion really about the merits loose tenon joinery?
Dan

BTW Jack pics in post 91 are really enlightening Thanks!!
Dan

[David Dundas]

:o" Surly you carnt be serious;) Im not alowed to show enthusiasm for the best thing i have had in 17 years of working with wood. And most woodworkers i know are enthusiastic, energetic mob who definitely dont act in a prudent way"

:DLOL Here in America, most woodworkers are also enthusiastic and energetic individuals who usually don't hang around with mobs. lol. If you ever went to a woodworking show here in New England, you would run into the most prudent , polite, reserved bunch you ever come across. Nothing like the rowdies from "down under". lol;) There definetly are alot of conservative Yankees, here in my backyard, who still watch the pennies comming into and leaving the household!
Gary K.
Edited... I apologize for the bold type. On another forum I had complaints that my type was too thin and unreadable. Could someone tell me if this is OK? Again, I didn't mean it as yelling....I'm sorry that it was taken that way. Thanks

Gary,

Your post illustrates the hazards of interpreting the posts of English-speakers from another country. In Australia, the word 'mob' is a slang word that simply means a group. It has none of the connotations of riotous behavior, and irrationality that the word 'mob' has in other English-speaking nations. Maybe you knew this, and were just seeking to poke a bit of fun at your wild colonial cousins down under, but we have moved on a little since the days of Ned Kelly, just as you have since the days of Al Capone.

David

[Don Bergren]

Don,

You have raised some good points here, but I would just want to respond to a couple of comments. I am a Festool dealer, but not an employee, so I don't have all the inside info. However, Festool has been around in Europe for over 80 years. In that time, and while remaining a private company, they have become the industry leaders (largest market share/sales) there in the woodworking, cabinet making, flooring, automotive painting and perhaps other industries.
Their saws have been around since the 1960's and in Europe have indeed been "copied" by other companies. I think Bosch has made something similar recently. A bit different, but essentially incorporating many of Festoool's features and adding some of their own.
The Festool Rotex is a dual mode sander, now there are others - that's a good thing.
Festool has been in the USA for about 10 years and at this point in time, Festool USA has come to be in the top five countries for Festool. I think they have every intention of going toe to toe here, just not on the basis of price.

Bob

Bob,

I am very aware that Festool is big in Europe. Whether they are a private or public company is irrelevant in this marketplace, but that may not be the case in Europe. The problem they face here in the USA is the price differential. Buyers have shown again and again that there comes a point where they will happily sacrifice quality in favor of a better price. When I referred to going "toe to toe” here, I meant going toe to toe in the area of pricing. It brings us back to the same old Lamello vs. buying a Dewalt or Porter Cable biscuit joiner. Festool's success in Europe is something that will take years to duplicate here. Not because of the product, but because of the product price and consumer price expectations.

Currently they are experiencing growth here in the USA, but they need to have a lot more success before they become a standard that everyday folks look for, and are willing to pay for. When you look at a product category (sander, saw, drill, etc.) sold as a whole in this country, and then look at the percentage of that product category that is Festool, their market share is not perched to be dominant here any time soon. Their growth will be slow and long term, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing because growth can be easier managed that way. I'm not trying to bash Festool, I'm just talking a little about what I view as market realities.

Festool may be innovative in product development, but their competition will always respond with a similar product and offer it at a lower price point. If a customer can buy a similar product from a big name competitor at a lower price, they'll often buy the lower priced item. It isn't always about the real value with a customer; it's often the perceived value that sells. Festool caters to a certain market segment, rather than trying to spread themselves throughout the entire market, and because of that strategy their market share will grow slowly here. Again, that's not a bad strategy to go with.

Jim's post was one of hope that more manufacturers would follow Festool's practice and begin to focus more on quality and innovation, rather than worry about price and market share. I just don't see that happening here any time soon. Festool will continue to do what it does best, and the competition will continue as they have been. And in the end there is value to everyone so it doesn't really matter I guess.

[Bob Marino]

Bob,

I am very aware that Festool is big in Europe. Whether they are a private or public company is irrelevant in this marketplace, but that may not be the case in Europe. The problem they face here in the USA is the price differential. Buyers have shown again and again that there comes a point where they will happily sacrifice quality in favor of a better price. When I referred to going "toe to toe” here, I meant going toe to toe in the area of pricing. It brings us back to the same old Lamello vs. buying a Dewalt or Porter Cable biscuit joiner. Festool's success in Europe is something that will take years to duplicate here. Not because of the product, but because of the product price and consumer price expectations.

Currently they are experiencing growth here in the USA, but they need to have a lot more success before they become a standard that everyday folks look for, and are willing to pay for. When you look at a product category (sander, saw, drill, etc.) sold as a whole in this country, and then look at the percentage of that product category that is Festool, their market share is not perched to be dominant here any time soon. Their growth will be slow and long term, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing because growth can be easier managed that way. I'm not trying to bash Festool, I'm just talking a little about what I view as market realities.

Festool may be innovative in product development, but their competition will always respond with a similar product and offer it at a lower price point. If a customer can buy a similar product from a big name competitor at a lower price, they'll often buy the lower priced item. It isn't always about the real value with a customer; it's often the perceived value that sells. Festool caters to a certain market segment, rather than trying to spread themselves throughout the entire market, and because of that strategy their market share will grow slowly here. Again, that's not a bad strategy to go with.

Jim's post was one of hope that more manufacturers would follow Festool's practice and begin to focus more on quality and innovation, rather than worry about price and market share. I just don't see that happening here any time soon. Festool will continue to do what it does best, and the competition will continue as they have been. And in the end there is value to everyone so it doesn't really matter I guess.

Don,

We are in waaaaaaaaaaaaay more agreement than disagreement here.
My point about Festool still existing as a private company is that they don't have the bean counters and they look to the long term growth, rather than short term profits as all too often happens.
Four years ago, I, along with other dealers were invited by Festool USA to visit Festool's German manufacturing facility and headquarters. The CEO gave us a presentation. Festool had researched the tool market place, thoroughly analyzing sales, customer base, etc. In a sentance, the companies that manufactured tools with price at the expense of quality weren't doin' so well. Festool, on the other hand, was all the more determined to be the market leader, with quality, not price as their primary goal. Very refreshing as well as reassuring, to hear. This is also not to suggest for a second that there are not other excellent tools out there - there sure are! Your point about value and perceived value is right on.

No, you won't see these tools at HD and Festool is aimed primarily at the pros and serious hobbyist. They don't want, nor do they expect to be as ubiquitous as say, Black and Decker. BTW, there was a time, not too long ago, the the B & D stood for quality. Again, my point is they are looking at long term growth, not next year's profits and agree with you again - that's not a bad strategy.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Here is an interesting quote from the Festool Owners Group forum by Jerry Work, a highly talented professional woodworker. Jerry is writing a "Getting the most from" manual on the Domino, so he speaks from personal experience:

"...the uses described will go far beyond what most think the Domino is when they first look at it. It is truely a sea change machine that will alter for the better how virtually everyting is built. It is likely the most important tool for dealing with solid wood movement to come along in my career. Very exciting to photograph and write about."

Sounds a lot like Per Swenson, Rick Christopherson and our Aussie friends. Hmmm. Hang the expense, I might just have to get one of these puppies for my next M&T project. The folks that have used a Domino seem exceptionally enthusiastic. Gotta be some reasons for that.

[John Piwaron]

Have you bought any exotic hardwood lately? The wood alone will cost a lot more than that $30 you quote.
Mike


Has anyone bought any decent hardwood lately? It's *all* expensive!

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary,

Your post illustrates the hazards of interpreting the posts of English-speakers from another country. In Australia, the word 'mob' is a slang word that simply means a group. It has none of the connotations of riotous behavior, and irrationality that the word 'mob' has in other English-speaking nations. Maybe you knew this, and were just seeking to poke a bit of fun at your wild colonial cousins down under, but we have moved on a little since the days of Ned Kelly, just as you have since the days of Al Capone.

David David, I guess my sense of humor is doesn't go over well sometimes....sorry. Basically I wanted to express how frugal (cheap) some of us are in New England. I also guess that protocol on this particular forum doesn't go for the "LOL" too, much. Bad habit of using that, sorry again.
A little note: It was nice to see examples of the domino results... Dave's chair and Jack's drawer are good examples of what the machine can do. These are things that the hobbyist can do at home. These are the things that I wanted to see. I can learn from them.
Gary K.

[Jim Becker]

Don, I honestly think that Festool is doing marvelously in the US. With increasing frequency, their tools are showing up in pictures in the trade mags and magazines...and not from a paid product placement standpoint...real folks using them every day. I've seen them on job sites, both while traveling and locally. One of the most visible contractors in the NA market is Tom Silva and he's using Festool tools. You'll see them on TOH and in TOH magazine. They were not given to him. He bought them after the (most excellent) ISA worked really hard to get him to test them and prove their worth. And in this and other forums, you're seeing more and more folks buying and using these tools. (Honestly, the same goes for other quality brands including the very pricy Euro stationary machines)

Some manufacturers are noticing this trend...like Grizzly bringing out some true sliding table saws and now a 12" combo jointer/planer. Bosch's improvments to their jig saw with the addition of guides is another example. Fein does very well in the vac department with a quality product.

It's very true what you say about so many consumers picking price over quality. In that, we really can't blame many manufacturers for catering to their customers buying patterns because sales are what generates the bottom line. And for those who realize through experience that spending over and over for the same tools really isn't cost effective...there are good options. Like Festool, Metabo, Lamello and a growing number of other alternatives. That's good for everyone!

I learned my lesson too many times that the most expensive tools are the ones you need to replace early and often. It's not the price you pay now...it's the price you pay over time. That's why I'm glad to see a tool like the Domino. No, I'm not buying one as it doesn't fit into the things I do, but I can see that it has a place "out there" and expect that it will fill the role that with be defined by its users very well and last a long time.

[Keith Outten]

Gentlemen,

Surely you understand this is a friendly community. Anyone whose behavior is unfriendly will surely be judged harshly by your peers here. Consider your own reputations and how they will be harmed before you accuse others publicly or decide to wander from this communities standards of acceptable behavior.

Be Nice :)

.

[Ben Grunow]

It may be debatable, but I think the Saw Stop is the "Tool of the Decade". If it is debatable, count me out of the debate though.

Ben

[Gary Keedwell]

Ben,
That would be an interesting debate. There are merits for both, I guess. Maybe a separate thread would be in order.
The saw stop is definetely revolutionary in it's ability to help curtail serious injury. I have never seen it work but apparently it is doing fine in sales. Has got to be a reason.
From what I can gather about the domino dowel system, it took the basic shape of a biscut joiner and instead of a saw blade plunging into wood, it has a router bit that not only plunges, but oscillates(spell) too. so instead of a kerf slot to fit a biscut it has a mortise hole with a radius at each end. From what I can gather, that is revolutionary, too.
Seems like good things are happening to our hobby, or trade, if that is your case. It really is exiciting that innovations are happening. And I am really happy for the folks that can afford them. ( maybe a little jealous, too)
But I will probably keep doing things in the future that I have done in the past. As a machinist in my other life, I have seen many, many innovations in the last 40 years. That is why I have taken a rather pragmatic attitude towards recent "improvements". I have seen CNC machines come into my trade and change it drastically. We had a machine with so many axis that it did all the lathe work and mill work and the parts come out complete, within tenths of a thousand of an inch.It is probably why I like to go home and do things more or less the traditional way. Well, happy woodworking!!! :D

Gary K.

[Keith Starosta]

Pete,

I suppose it is fair enough to entertain some scepticism about claims made by people who are Festool dealers or magazine editors who have been flown to Germany by the company to inspect the Domino factory, although it would be foolish of them to make exaggerated claims about the Domino. But Jack Dyer and myself, who have used the Domino in Australia for at least six months, have NO commercial connection to Festool, and have no motivation other than to provide information on the tool to members of this forum who have not had the opportunity of seeing the tool for themselves.

I believe that for professional cabinetmakers the need to possess this tool is a no-brainer, since it can greatly increase productivity. For hobbyists like myself, it is much more an open question; the decision will depend largely on your attitude to your hobby. If you do woodwork mainly because you enjoy the exercise of manual skills in the stress-free environment of your shop, the Domino is probably not for you. On the other hand, if you enjoy using the most efficient methods of producing a high-quality piece of furniture, then you should consider the Domino. Whether you actually decide to lay out a fair amount of money to acquire one will depend on how seriously you take your hobby.

The fact is that most American woodworkers, if they really want a Domino, can probably easily afford one. They might perhaps have to decide to buy a Ford or a Toyota rather than a BMW to facilitate the purchase.

It would be perfectly possible, if you only want to make a few dozen mortise-and-tenon joints per year, to get many of the advantages of the Domino system, by using a router to rout 5/16" mortises and then using 8 mm thick domino tenons as floating tenons. Those unfamiliar with the metric system may not be aware that 5/16" is almost exactly equal to 8 millimeters.

I hope I have made it clear that I am not a fanatical advocate for the Domino. I just believe that the serious hobbyist who is affluent enough to be able to indulge himself or herself by buying high-quality tools, the Domino is well worth considering. I have no quarrel with those who prefer to cut their mortises with hand tools - it just so happens that I do not. But it is futile to rubbish the Domino because it has little appeal to hand-tool enthusiasts.

David Dundas

That is an incredibly offensive statement....to this American, anyway.....and had NO place in that post, or this thread. Your opinion or not.....

- Keith

[Pete Brown]

That is an incredibly offensive statement....to this American, anyway.....and had NO place in that post, or this thread. Your opinion or not.....

I agree! No way would I buy a ford ;)

In all seriousness, I drive a honda instead of an acura (or BMW) precisely so I can afford my hobbies. But I do think it is naive to think most people can go out and toss $1000 at a tool. There are plenty of people (especially retirees) who can't.

FWIW, I've been waffling on the Domino and now I think I may get one. I'm just thinking of the ways I could use it. Who knows? :)

Then again, I may change my mind again tomorrow :p

Pete

[Dan Lautner]

" The problem they face here in the USA is the price differential. Buyers have shown again and again that there comes a point where they will happily sacrifice quality in favor of a better price. W

“Festool may be innovative in product development, but their competition will always respond with a similar product and offer it at a lower price point. If a customer can buy a similar product from a big name competitor at a lower price, they'll often buy the lower priced item.”

Don, You are dead wrong. America always has room for superior expensive goods. We build the finest homes and buy the most expensive cars. You name the category and Americans will buy a superior product at a higher price. Not all Americans buy their furniture at walmart. Herman Miller, Knoll and Steelcase will sell you top of the line furniture at top of the line prices. Harley Davidson does not seem to have trouble commanding top dollar for their product. You can sleep in a nice room for $800 a night at a Four Seasons. Callaway will help you part with your cash if you play golf. Christ we are home of the American Girl Dolls. Not only is the Domino designed and built like a Porsche, it also is a groundbreaking invention. Much like Americans buy Miele dishwashers, BMWs and fine wines, we will buy more than out share of Dominos and any other top quality tool Festool offers. Ask the people at GM and Ford if large market share is the end all be all.

Dan

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Since I responded early on with an offer to sell a bridge...and so on...I'd like to explain my attitude in that reply.......

Everyday we are bombarded with OUTRAGEOUS advertising statements....infomercials on television....etc. To me, the initial post did, in fact, sound like it was one of these OUTRAGEOUS advertising statements that came off the desk of some marketing managers desk. I kept waiting to hear "but wait......there's more...."........Call right now and .......Well...You know the routine. The original statement sound too good to be true. If my "sell you a bridge" statement offended anybody....I apologize......

I am offended by the gentleman above stating that we Americans might have to buy a Ford or Toyota instead of a BMW.....What does that have to do with the new Festool product?..........

While I don't own any Festool products, I've seen enough recommendations here at the Creek to know their products perform as advertised.

Folks.........If a PRO like Per says it's that good.....then it's that good.....

Now there's just one thing left.....Am I willing to pay the price that Festool is asking for it?.....That's just a decision I'll have to make. In a capitalistic society it's their right to charge what they think their product is worth. It's certainly not something to get emotional about or posting a flaming response over...........

Enough....let it go!

[Gary Keedwell]

" The problem they face here in the USA is the price differential. Buyers have shown again and again that there comes a point where they will happily sacrifice quality in favor of a better price. W

“Festool may be innovative in product development, but their competition will always respond with a similar product and offer it at a lower price point. If a customer can buy a similar product from a big name competitor at a lower price, they'll often buy the lower priced item.”

Don, You are dead wrong. America always has room for superior expensive goods. We build the finest homes and buy the most expensive cars. You name the category and Americans will buy a superior product at a higher price. Not all Americans buy their furniture at walmart. Herman Miller, Knoll and Steelcase will sell you top of the line furniture at top of the line prices. Harley Davidson does not seem to have trouble commanding top dollar for their product. You can sleep in a nice room for $800 a night at a Four Seasons. Callaway will help you part with your cash if you play golf. Christ we are home of the American Girl Dolls. Not only is the Domino designed and built like a Porsche, it also is a groundbreaking invention. Much like Americans buy Miele dishwashers, BMWs and fine wines, we will buy more than out share of Dominos and any other top quality tool Festool offers. Ask the people at GM and Ford if large market share is the end all be all.

DanDon't want to get politics in here but we have seen a 20 year span of prosperity, never before seen, starting in the mid 80's. Alot of people have rode on that wave of good fortune. Unfortunetly, a few sectors of our economy haven't fared so well, manufacturing among others. Alot of people got rich, alot stayed the same and far too many fell behind. Please don't lump all Americans in the former.:o
Gary K

[John Lucas]

I havent posted on this thread. I was about to since I have a Domino Joiner and have been using it for 8 weeks. I come here to get ideas and to give what I know when I can. I read this thread from the start so as not to duplicate the messages. But having read this entire thread I have decided to pass and go to bed in peace. There are some comments about "tongue in cheek" humor. I doubt that. I thought SMC was bigger and better than this. Good night.

[Zahid Naqvi]

A few things.

1. Let's keep the discussion focussed on the domino, as you must have noticed several mods have posted mild reminders to keep things civilised. There is a lot of useful information in this thread.

2. Let's not generalise things, and let's not address each others as Americans, Australians etc. we are all woodworkers and that is all that matters as far as SMC is concerned.

3. And please develop some tolerance, if someone makes a negative comment that you feel offends you in any way, let it go, if you don't reply there will not be an argument. Life is too short and there are lots of woodworking projects awaiting our passion and energies.

[David Dundas]

That is an incredibly offensive statement....to this American, anyway.....and had NO place in that post, or this thread. Your opinion or not.....

- Keith

Keith,

I am genuinely puzzled as to why you find my statement offensive. I lived in Colorado for several years, and my observation was that most of the woodworkers I came across were reasonably affluent; perhaps 50% of them would have been retired professional people, and the rest were by no means poor. I don't know of any statistics on the average income of American woodworkers, but I would guess that it is well above the median income of the general population.

Anyway, I had no intention of causing offense and apologise if I have done so.

David

[Don Selke]

I think it is time to open up my grandfathers tool chest and go back to hand tools. I guess the bottom line is if you can afford to purchase Festool, then go for it. If you are retired like me and many others that love this hobby, do with what you have.

[Greg Millen]

I've read the entire thread and find myself agreeing with John Lucas. This thread does not reflect SMC's usual inviting style.

One of the great things about woodworkers in general is their similar interests and general commeraderie. I have been saddened to see some of our top Australian hobby woodworkers taken to task as if they are neophytes. In this forum perhaps they are new, yet in other forums their posts are highly valued and number in their thousands over many years.

It doesn't matter where knowledge comes from, only that it be accurate and worthy.

[Chris Barton]

According to my 25yo daughter, I am the "tool" of the decade. Somehow, I have a feeling this isn't a compliment...

[John Bailey]

This thread, while informative and useful to many, has had some offensive posts that should not happen at SMC. It will be locked for the time being while the moderators take a look at it. We have a few subjects that seem to go beyond passionate comments and toward personal comments - sometimes offensive in nature. I hope in the future the Domino does not become one of those subjects.

For those of you disapointed in the tone of the thread, I apologize for letting it get out of hand. We are a civil group but, with the numbers we have, it's sometimes difficult to make the right moderating choices at the right time. I'm sure the Dominio will be discussed in the future, at least I hope so.

Thanks for your understanding,

John