Fingernail grind bowl gouge

[Dick Durbin]

A couple of weeks ago I received a 3/8" Benjamin's Best bowl gouge from Penn State. I was surprised when it came in that it was a fingernail grind, since the catalogue doesn't tell you that. It was so inexpensive that I decided to go ahead and keep it.

I can not for the life of me get it to do anything but catch and present me with new design opportunities. I gave up on it and reground it last night to a profile that I can actually use.

Is there any trick to using a fingernail grind bowl gouge?

[Ron Chamberlin]

I musst have the same gouge. So far, I have not been able to use it very well, and am also considering a regrind.

[Gordon Seto]

Can you post a picture of the factory grind?

Tool companies only put a grind on the tool to look nice to sell the gouge. They are not sharp, ready to be used. They anticipate turners would likely reshape and grind the gouges to their preference anyway.

Gordon

[David Foshee]

I have a couple of Sorby fingernail gring bowl gouges and love them. I do from time to time have them grab. I have found most times I get in a hurry and don't properly present the tool to the wood. By properly presenting the tool to the wood seams to solve my Grabbing issues. Make sure the bevel is rubbing then raise the handle to start the cut.

[George Tokarev]

Is there any trick to using a fingernail grind bowl gouge?

It's two gouges, really. The part around the nose where the grind angle is relatively constant is used the way any gouge is used, by rotating the nose of the gouge into the wood at close to 90 degrees to the grain direction, and with a slight nose-up attitude to ensure that the nose isn't trapped under the wood. All poke, with little bevel reference to peel by, and prone to leaving ridges unless you have a very steady hand when you try to move it along the rest, or rolling and catching the steeper side grind under the wood. Use with a swing until you practice the transition to peel.

The second gouge is the wing. If it's fingernailed, the edge should have a slight belly in it. Some are very straight, and tougher to use as a peeling tool. Anyway, turn the gouge up on its handle and you can visualize the wing as a broader radius version of the nose. You task is to get the same presentation as above, where the nose is at the deepest part of the cut (that nose-up attitude), and the larger-radius bevel guides on the work. It's a continuation of the sweep, picking up the nose as you approach the depth at which you want to peel and rotating the gouge gradually to bring the wing into play. You will catch if you don't get that nose trailing the cut.

Which is why I don't use a bowl gouge except to hog. That way I'm constantly sweeping. I use a larger radius gouge on its side to do the peeling, where the bevel keeps the gouge from rotating and catching under the wood.

Pictures of the business ends of Bowl and forged patterns show the similarities. The entry poke shows how the bevel is referenced initially, with the cutaway showing how that's broadened to get a good bevel reference for peeling.

[Dick Durbin]

The second gouge is the wing. If it's fingernailed, the edge should have a slight belly in it. Some are very straight, and tougher to use as a peeling tool.



Aha! This seems to be the problem. There is no belly so you either have the point engaged or the whole edge.

[Bill Wyko]

I have a crown tool that seems to be a fingernail gouge too. It has a belly under the tip. Just what is this tool used for? It does'nt cut very well. Good for little details though.

[Jim Becker]

I'm bothered by the "fingernail" description, especially if they put a grind on it that is similar to a spindle gouge...way low an angle in the tip to have a bevel to rub on for bowl work. A side-grind (Irish, Ellsworth, etc) generally has a pretty high angle so you can present the tip without catching and take tiny cuts, with more material being removed as you rotate more toward the sides. Seeing a picture of your gouge profile really would be useful to this discussion!

[Bill Wyko]

I'll take a pic of mine tonight. Being new at this I thought this tool would be good for tight recesses but it does'nt cut very well. The manufacturers of these tools should put a description of the tools use for us rookies.:rolleyes:

[Skip Spaulding]

Dick, I have the same gouge, seems to work after my 1/2" Sorby with a blunt grind won't cut any more toward the bottom of a rounded bowl. I really don't know if that is what it is for but I keep experimeting. Still have to clean things up with a scraper! Skip

[George Tokarev]

Aha! This seems to be the problem. There is no belly so you either have the point engaged or the whole edge.

Well, not really. You start safer with a narrow bite, then transition to a broader one, while the bevel is in contact. The poke nose works fine across end grain, but most cuts are at a bit of an angle, where peeling works better at stabilizing the gouge against the bevel and minimizing ridges.

The kid's home, I'll chuck up and have him shoot a couple short videos.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Dick I have the one from PSI with what I call the Irish grind or fingernail grind. I ended up buying another one. I love the thing. I get a catch every once in a while but nothing that disturbs me. I also bought 2 of their 1/2" bowl gouges with the same grind.

[George Tokarev]

If you have broadband, try the clips SWMBO volunteered to shoot.

First outside, http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view&current=Outside.flv where there's a short bit of nose only poke. Can't reference a bevel to air, and shouldn't try, and trying to overcut is a guaranteed catch, so poke and stroke is the way to go. Tool strokes through an arc defined by a firm hold on the rest. Don't try to push the nose into the wood, let the arc limit you. Then you see a roll up to the fingernailed wing portion when there's a place to rest a bevel. Push along the rest, but if you encounter out-of-round rattle, stop and pivot through rather than risk a catch by pushing under the wood. Then reenter with a poke and stroke, roll to edge to continue. You can get a lot of wood off this way by broadening the face of the cut, but the thickness of the shaving is limited by the curve of the edge of the grind. Don't want to hook the nose. Last sequence is what gouges used to be when the turner powered his own lathe. You can see that it gets as much or more edge into play as a bowl gouge poorly supported with its handle down, and at 90 degrees to the rest. Sweet spot isn't just below the center, either. You can use the entire edge in stages. I like this way.

Inside's the same, http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view&current=Inside.flv with a poke and stroke, nosemost to enter, followed by the roll you see after the backmarker. You only roll to broaden the shaving after you have a good bevel to push, letting the greater amount of bevel steady the gouge and spread the load on the wood. You can hear what happens when you have very little bevel in contact with the wood as the flat form gouge begins the cut in the second part of the clip. It's supported wide, so spans some of the chatter formed by the squirm from the first gouge. You can also hear it chatter as it starts planing across broad grain at the the bottom, once again for the same reason, I didn't broaden the previous gouge to take out the ridges. Final pass(es) with the gouge should be almost noiseless. Whichever gouge you use, the principle's the same. Gain bevel support over a broader area so that the deepest portion of the cut is the exit. When you're referenced only along the bevel, the gouge will roll. Either of these two can lead to a catch. Broader radius gouges just offer you more opportunity to peel narrow from the start.

[Dick Durbin]

If you have broadband, try the clips SWMBO volunteered to shoot.


George,

Thanks for going to so much trouble. Thank the Missus/cinematographer, also. That was very generous of you both.

Since I reground the gouge to a much shorter fingernail I can make the kind of cuts you demonstrate.

[Bill Wyko]

Here's some pics of the gouge I was talking about. It could'nt cut butter on an arizona summer day. Whats it for?

[Dario Octaviano]

Bill,

That gouge needs to be sharpened ...and with a jig! The pics are not that great but I can see it is very dull (3rd pic)

The shape is all wrong it need to be re-profiled actually not just sharpened.

[Skip Spaulding]

George, Great clips! Thanks for the help. Skip

[Bill Wyko]

Thats the way it way it was brand new. Any way to contact someone with crown in regards to this.

[Gordon Seto]

Bill,

If you looking from the end of the gouge, which flute shape do you have? Looking at the picture, I suspect you have a spindle/detail gouge instead of a bowl gouge.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/Bowl_SpindleGouge.jpg

Gordon

[George Tokarev]

George,
Since I reground the gouge to a much shorter fingernail I can make the kind of cuts you demonstrate.

The ultimate answer. You have to suit the geometry to your style and your posture. As long as you get the result you want, no "wrong" gouge.

Thanks for joggin' my noggin. Forgot amid the chores that there was a bowl on the lathe. Snuck down before starting dinner and finished 'er up. Couple pics for you. Soft maple.

As to the spouse, she owed me one after the plumbing episode that I endured yesterday and fixed today after a trip to the hardware. Why is it women think you can just jam the fifth partial bottle of some kind of cleaner under the sink? Keeps good company with the three old hair dryers, saved for reasons unknown, and other things. Not good for the compression fittings on the hot water, though. Wouldn't re-seal.

I suppose it was impolitic of me to mention a similar incident with the trash basket and the trap under the kitchen sink last spring, though. ;)

[Keith Burns]

Bill, from the pictures it looks like a detail gouge to me. Not a bowl or spindle gouge.

[Bill Wyko]

Bill, from the pictures it looks like a detail gouge to me. Not a bowl or spindle gouge.
I guess i'm using it correctly then:D It does detail nicely though.

[Steve Schlumpf]

George, wanted to thank you and your wife for the informative videos.

Great looking bowl. What do you normally use for a finish?

[Jim Becker]

Bill that's a specialty gouge as it stands in the picture, not unlike the one that David Ellsworth uses for working bottoms and parting off when doing "no reverse turning" pieces. I have one in my rack and use it for detail work and the other things I just mentioned. It's not intended "as is" to be used to turn a bowl or vessel start to finish, IMHO.

[George Tokarev]

The one pictured will get walnut oil. It's a marginal salad for two in style and dimension at 12 x 2.5. I use that, poly, or shellac for pure D lookers. Since I finish in batches, sometimes what a piece gets depends on what I'm using on others at the moment.

[Dick Durbin]

Bill, from the pictures it looks like a detail gouge to me. Not a bowl or spindle gouge.

That's the gouge that Penn State is selling as a bowl gouge. It's the same one I bought. I broke down today and bought a Sorby 3/8" bowl gouge at the Woodcraft store in Pompano Beach. I hated to spend that much money for one gouge, but I can't wait to get in the gara... er, shop tomorrow.