The Sawstop debate rages on [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

John Schreiber

01-21-2007, 11:29 AM

Any discussion about safety equipment often leads to strong feelings.

Strong feelings are fine, but reality seems to go out the window so fast. The problem is that people can easily understand anecdotes and personal experience, but it doesn't seem to come naturally for people to understand statistics or measurements based on instruments.

Among woodworkers, SawStop of course is a big deal, but dust collection is even bigger. Just bring up helmet use on a bicycling forum and you'll get the same results.

Somebody said near the beginning of the last SS thread, "Time to make popcorn."

Mark Singer

01-21-2007, 11:41 AM

I have used the SawStop for a while now and can say with some authority that it is a fine saw in every respect and the safety factor is well worth the expense....the thing really works! I have had fine cabinet saws like a US made PM 66 and it is not as smooth or as accurate as the SawStop...I am quite happy with the purchase... I think a lot of the controversy is that the thing can't possible work...well it really does! Ot that is costly...which seems ridiculous....evey time I go to buy wood for a new piece I spend between $1000 and $2000 in lumber. One trip is the difference between the SawStop and its competitors...my fingers and my sons are worth it...I have them all after all these years and they are valuable....more so than the additional cost
I didn't mean to start anything...this is more of a report from a user after a few months:confused:

Tim Wagner

01-22-2007, 12:12 AM

thats a 2900 doller unit if i am not mistaking isn't it? I thought the PM 66 and the Pm2000, and even a General were the gold standards. Does that make the SS a Platinum standard. LOl

Al Willits

01-22-2007, 9:14 AM

Mark Singer

01-22-2007, 12:56 PM

"""""
Ot that is costly...which seems ridiculous....evey time I go to buy wood for a new piece I spend between $1000 and $2000 in lumber.
"""""""

Wonder how many of us actually spend that much each time we go to the lumber yard, especially the hobbyist?
Easy to justify spending big bucks on tools if your making a living at it, not quite so easy if its just a hobby and your income doesn't justify $2000 trips to the lumber yard or 3 or 4k worth of saw.
Some of us make do with what we have, others are fortunate enough to be able to buy whatever strikes their fancy.

Al

Al,
many hobbiests don't spend that much...many build only small pieces,,,then they really don't need a cabinet saw. A sofa, dining room table or large cabinet has about 100 BF of material at $10 /bf that is $1000. If you are building this kind of stuff...and I do , then a good cabinet saw that is safe is important... For people making small jewlery boxes...a 14" bandsaw and some handtools works fine...it just depends. I see much larger shops with real big equipment on SMC and other places and the work that comes out is relativly small pieces...some guys just want big equipment...I kinda feel for what I am doing my equipment is proportionately correct...There is not one correct way to go ...for each of us its different...fingers are nice to keep though:rolleyes:

Al Willits

01-22-2007, 2:34 PM

Mark, my point wasn't whether the saw was safe, or keeping the fingers was important, I was trying to point out not all can justify/afford the expense.

So saying the cost issue is ridiculous, may not be true for some...leastwise for us poor folk...:D

Al

Curt Harms

01-23-2007, 11:13 AM

My thinking with Saw Stop is this: I'm a school district or shop with students or employees using tablesaws. I purchase a table saw(s) without sawstop-type technology. One of the students or employees suffers a major injury that Saw Stop could have prevented. Of COURSE I get sued. How do I justify not purchasing equipment that could have prevented this injury? I'm not an attorney or well versed in liability issues, but this is something to consider. I also wonder if there are insurance breaks that might help offset the price premium.

Ken Werner

01-24-2007, 9:31 AM

Curt, I think you are hitting the nail on the head with regards to liability issues. As for the insurance companies giving a break - I'm not holding my breath. Al's comments are very reasonable, and it relates across the board. The one bit of good news for woodworkers on a tight budget is that [I bet] there will be alot of very good nonSS table saws coming on the used market in the next few years, because businesses and schools will have to upgrade to SS because of the liability risk. Too bad so much has to be done these days to avoid getting sued.
Ken

Anthony Anderson

01-24-2007, 10:19 AM

Curt, Too bad so much has to be done these days to avoid getting sued.
Ken

Ken, maybe it should be looked at this way. There are a lot of kids that take wood shop in school and will become a lifelong passion for them, also there are a lot of employees that have to go to work everyday and try to make a living using tablesaws. Maybe it should be looked upon as a good thing that should be done to help prevent life altering injuries to fellow mankind and especially kids. I know this is a touchy subject and I swore that I would not respond to this thread, but here I am. Respect and Regards, Bill

Al Willits

01-24-2007, 10:52 AM

I don't think anybodies (well, most anybody) said the Sawstop is a bad thing, I'd think that if you could buy the Sawstop blade feature for a couple hundred bucks and add to your present saw, they're be lines at the store to buy it.
And I can see schools and industry buying these things like crazy.
I'm not so sure it will stop any of the lawsuits, but you sure think it'd help.

Seems like a great saw for those who can justify/afford the cost, well made and having the ability to help keep all your fingers, seems like a given... and if me and my Delta hybrid keep having the love/hate relationship we're currently having, it might even be in my future...:)

Al...who thinks he can forgo a couple...er...make that a few house payments for one.....:D

Ken Werner

01-24-2007, 11:16 AM

I'm all for the SS at workplaces and schools. I am sorry that the motivation for it comes from fear of liability rather than getting the safest tool for those using it because it is the right thing to do. I'll [try to] keep quiet now. With mutual respect to all.
Ken

James Yockey

01-24-2007, 11:58 AM

I am a small one man shop and ask myself daily is this the day I have a saw accident. I work alone most of the time. My family has seen the SS and ask that I purchase one no matter what the cost. It doesn't take the place of total focus while opperating but it is that extra insurance that should something happen while using the saw I will still be able to hold my Grandchild.
SS does not take on any more responsibility than the other manufactures do. I will save up my dimes and buy the first Contractor size saw that comes out. (my shop wouldn't hold a cabinet saw)

Chris Padilla

01-24-2007, 4:30 PM

Personally, I'd like the SS for its dust collection and beefy-ness and would happily purchase one even if it didn't have the safety feature. I just don't see my Griz 1023Z going south any time soon....

Don Bullock

01-24-2007, 6:53 PM

I have used the SawStop for a while now and can say with some authority that it is a fine saw in every respect and the safety factor is well worth the expense....the thing really works! I have had fine cabinet saws like a US made PM 66 and it is not as smooth or as accurate as the SawStop...I am quite happy with the purchase... I think a lot of the controversy is that the thing can't possible work...well it really does! ...I didn't mean to start anything...this is more of a report from a user after a few months:confused:

Mark, I for one greatly appreciate your report. It makes my decision to purchase one as soon as I possibly can even stronger. If I could, I'd go out today and buy one, but cost and my lack of space right now prevent me from doing so.

BTW --- The WoodCraft in Stanton, CA has announced that they will be selling the SS and they have one for people to see in their store. Hopefully I'll be able to see it demonstrated the next time I get down there or when I take a class at heir store.

Chris Padilla

01-24-2007, 7:42 PM

Mark Singer

01-24-2007, 7:46 PM

Don,

You'll me amazed/floored/stymied/perplexed/wowed at how bloody FAST the saw blade drops below the table saw top. I swear if you blink, you'll miss it! The SS is a very impressive table saw from many different angles.

Chris ,
Is that you? If you remeber I was the first to point out it is an expensive machine to run , if you business is cutting up hot dogs:confused:

Chris Padilla

01-24-2007, 7:50 PM

'Tis I! ;)

Yes, a pricey hot dog cutting machine and you know what: it does a LOUSY job of cutting hot dogs. I want my money back! :mad:

Bart Leetch

01-24-2007, 8:10 PM

"I kinda feel for what I am doing my equipment is proportionately correct...There is not one correct way to go ...for each of us its different...fingers are nice to keep though."

I agree Mark thats why I have the tools I do.:eek: :D Hurray for old iron.:D

Daniel Shnitka

02-05-2007, 3:37 AM

The importance of a riving knife: perhaps as important as as any safety device on any saw.
I recently heard of an industrial woodworking accident/incident that occured about a year ago. The incident/accident was the result of a kickback. I researched/investigated the incident to make sure I had the facts correct. The accident occured in a large well equiped manufacturing plant that produces custom and standard molding.
The shop accident occured when a piece of wood kicked back from a stationary saw with a twelve inch rip blade. The wood piece fractured off the original stock and shot back. The projectile, with the combined speed and mass, shot into the female operator at the waist above the pelvic hip bone like a spear.
She was taken to emergency where she was operated on.
The doctors opted to cut through her side to remove the piece sticking out either side of her rather than risk further damage by pulling or pushing it through. It missed her spleen by half an inch. She had one week to go before returning to university.
She was estimated to be 12 to 15 feet back of the saw when she was struck. She was walking across the hazard zone from one side of the orange lined safety zone to the other side when the accident occured.
This same saw on separate occasion involving kickback sent a blunt ended broom handle size piece of wood through and out the other side of a box bin for cut of scrap pieces. It went through two sides of the bin. That is two pieces of 3/4" fir plywood.
Well, what I got from this was: stay out of the line of fire and use a saw with its safety devices in place as kickback accidents could potentially kill you.
I bought a Sawstop table saw because of its riving knife and how well it works in tandem with the saw blade. That was the one piece of advice my retired friend gave me when I went to a woodworking trade show on the west coast. Find a saw that has a riving knife and or splitter that is not cumbersome or a burden to use.
The young women lived

David G Baker

02-05-2007, 11:00 AM

I have my microwave turned on and waiting for Orville Redenbacher to start talking to me. Extra butter please.
David B

Charles McKinley

02-05-2007, 11:24 AM

I would buy a slider over a sawstop but buy the time I'm in a position to buy a slider the europeans will probably have this technology mandated.

Mike Henderson

02-05-2007, 11:34 AM

A good thing I see in these more recent threads on SawStop is that people are focusing on the saw and not on the inventor.

I agree that a riving knife is perhaps more important than the sawstop mechanism itself. Too bad more saws are not offered with riving knives. For example, Grizzly does not offer a 10" saw with a riving knife (yet).

Mike

Al Willits

02-05-2007, 2:34 PM

Bill Simmeth

02-05-2007, 4:05 PM

Go to their website... http://www.sawstop.com/ Half way down the page on the left hand side is a button you can click so you can watch the hot dog test with your own eyes.

Chris Padilla

02-05-2007, 4:45 PM

A little help here, I keep hearing about the hot dog test and how it doesn't hardly leave a mark when the blade hits it.
I haven't seen this demonstration so I was wondering, do they just slowly walk the hot dog into the blade or is it inserted like a kickback, slipped hand or whatever might cause you to to insert body parts with a bit of speed to them?

And if it was walked in, has anybody jamed a hot dog in to see what damage was done??
Still gotta be a lot less than no brake I bet.

Seems like this was brought up before, but I can't find the anwser.

Al

Al,

The demo I saw he just ran the hotdog into the blade like anyone would normally cut on a table saw. It wasn't slow but he didn't ram it in there at the speed of light. IMO, it was a normal feed rate leaning a bit towards a faster rate.

It is amazing how fast the blade drops below the table top...you almost don't believe it! :)

Ron Wessels

02-05-2007, 5:53 PM

Performing a simple calculation shows how the SawStop should behave with speedier insertion.

According to their web site, they claim to react within 3-5 milliseconds. Call it 3 milliseconds to be optimistic. Assume an impact velocity of 10 m/s (about 22 mph, or how fast something would be moving after falling from over 16 feet). The distance travelled in 0.003s at 10m/s is 0.03m, or 3 centimeters (about 1 3/16 inch, for you non-metric types). On a 10 inch blade, that translates to a gash just under 6.5 inches long.

That's a very serious wound, but still arguably much better than you would get without the SawStop protection. And still not bad for having _slammed_ your hand into a running saw blade!

Andy Haney

02-05-2007, 6:43 PM

I saw the demo in person this weekend, and I'm extremely impressed. I think the blade drops faster than it appears to on the web version. The rep stated that Sawstop will replece the cartridge at no charge if they find (through testing) that the "used" one returned to them was set off by human contact. That said, now you're only out the price of the blade to save digits...a good deal in my book.

Also, I believe it is a dandy TS.

Andy

Chris Padilla

02-05-2007, 6:44 PM

According to their web site, they claim to react within 3-5 milliseconds. Call it 3 milliseconds to be optimistic. Assume an impact velocity of 10 m/s (about 22 mph, or how fast something would be moving after falling from over 16 feet). The distance travelled in 0.003s at 10m/s is 0.03m, or 3 centimeters (about 1 3/16 inch, for you non-metric types). On a 10 inch blade, that translates to a gash just under 6.5 inches long.

10 m/s is like 33 ft/s. Boy, that is really HAULIN' into a table saw blade! :eek: I'd say I could stop the blade easily ramming a piece of wood into it at that velocity! :rolleyes: My hand at that speed might stop the blade...MAYBE (wouldn't want to try it!) ;)

If you travel about 3 cm in 3 ms, how do you get a gash 16.5 cm long (6.5")?? Seem your gash is 3 cm, ain't it? :confused:

Dan Lee

02-05-2007, 6:56 PM

From my SS manual

5. In the event of contact, the blade will be stopped in about 3–5 milliseconds (coarse toothed blades stop
more quickly than fine-toothed blades such as plywood blades).
Therefore, the seriousness of the injury incurred
will depend on the speed at which a person’s hand or other body part is moving in toward the blade.

For example, if
a person’s hand is moving toward the blade at 1 ft./sec., then the depth of the cut will be approximately 1/16th inch
(1 ft./sec. * 0.005 sec. = 0.005 ft. or 1/16th inch). At faster speeds, the cut will be proportionally deeper.

Therefore,
it is possible to be very seriously injured even with the SawStop® safety system.

Ron Wessels

02-05-2007, 7:12 PM

Yes, my example was a full-force slam into the saw blade. I doubt you can do much worse.

As for the gash, it is 3cm deep, but at that depth, a 10 inch diameter blade makes a 6.5" long gash. To put it another way, if you have a zero-clearance insert and raise the blade up 3cm, you will have made a 6.5" long cut in the insert.

Chris Padilla

02-05-2007, 7:44 PM

Ah, I get it...it is Monday after the Super Bowl after all! :)

Al Willits

02-05-2007, 7:51 PM

Thanks, appears under normal useage hitting the blade will just cost you a blade and brake, where jaming the fingers in would cost probably a bunch of stiches, still better than having to go look for your fingers on a sawdust covered floor...pretty impressive.

Thanks.
Al

Dave Fifield

02-06-2007, 6:17 AM

OK, so the blade STOPS in 3 to 5 ms, but it's also travelling DOWN and AWAY from your precious hand/fingers for most of this time too, by virtue of the huge angular momentum of the blade, according to the SS website.

The SS DSP system detects human contact and triggers the stop mechanism within about 300ns if I recall correctly - there used to be a paper on the SS website that showed this but I can't find it now.

Can someone who knows all about angular momentum do the calcs to tell us how fast the blade moves down and away from your finger? Then I think we can do some better estimates as to the length and depth of the cut vs. the maximum speed a hand can humanly attain. :)

Also, what I'd like to see is the result of a test where the blade is raised fairly high, and the hotdog is slammed right into the TOP of the blade (kind of "flicked" onto the top of the blade real fast) rather than being run in horizontally with the wood.

Even without this info, my old Jet TS/Incra Fence will be FS very soon now ;)

Per Swenson

02-06-2007, 8:06 AM

Fellas,

Never mind that the saw's safety feature works.

Who cares if its the best made North American style saw

on the market today.

Money? Heck I spent that much monthly at Clancy's when I

was drinking.

Nope, we bought ours because its black.

Perfectly match's our new company polo shirts.

As they say, if ya gonna do it...

Do it with style.

Per

Al Willits

02-06-2007, 9:03 AM

Per, they have that saw in "Early garage"? :D

Al...who thinks that saw is to pretty for his garage.

Ron Wessels

02-06-2007, 9:06 AM

My calculations assume 3ms between first touch and start of blade "removal". I also assumed instantaneous blade removal.

There is insufficient information to calculate how fast the blade drops below the table. Amazingly enough, nowhere in the SawStop documentation does it say how fast the blade rotates. But more importantly, there is no information regarding the mass of the mechanism that must be moved to drop the blade, nor how much force is required to overcome whatever is holding the blade in place in the first place.

While the processor may decide to fire the brake in 300ns, I would really hope that they take readings for much longer before deciding to fire. At 300ns, one glitch in the analog-to-digital readout will result in a mis-fire. Besides, they are designing around an accidental "normal" feed into the blade, not some moron slamming his hand into it.

Although I can't find the reference, they talk about 2 blade teeth contacting before the blade is removed. Assuming 4000 RPM and a 60 tooth blade, that requires between 0.25ms (250000ns) and 0.5ms (500000ns) of contact, depending on the "width" of the teeth.

So, taking Dave's points into consideration, and going back to my extreme example, in 0.5ms at 10m/s, your hand has travelled 5mm or 1/512 inch (about 2 thou). If the brake has fired and the retraction is in progress, arguably your hand is now assisting in pushing the blade down with significantly less damage being done.

My gut says that the actual answer is that you will still have a significant wound requiring medical attention. You might even lose a finger or two (there's not a whole lot of cutting that needs to be done for that to happen). But what you will not get is the significant additional damage caused by you removing your hand in the less-than-perfectly-optimal direction as your reactions kick in.

Besides, there has to be a reason why they don't demo the hot dog being flicked into the blade.

Oh, and yes, the saw is hansome.

Chris Padilla

02-06-2007, 12:02 PM

Ron,

I think your extreme example is a bit way out there...knock off a magnitude and think it is a more realistic extreme.

However, email Mr. Steve Gass...he has been quite responsive in the past and even has posted on SMC a time or two when called upon to do so. I bet he'll be happy to give you all the numbers you desire.

Here is his profile: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=2829

Al Willits

02-06-2007, 12:13 PM

Slamming might be the wrong term, I'd think as fast as your hand would be going if you slipped or the saw kickbacked and somehow your hand hit the blade, not quite slamming, but probably a bit faster than the test?
I think slamming your hand into a stopped blade would probaly leave you with the need for more than a couple band aids, I'd rather not be the one to test it, but I bet you could drive a blade a ways into your hand just by slamming the still blade?

Al

Ron Wessels

02-06-2007, 12:33 PM

I agree that my extreme example is extreme. But I do think that it's not too far off the maximum speed that you can impact the saw blade in the worst case.

I assumed that people were curious as to the "maximum" amount of damage you can do to yourself with a SawStop. And in no way am I trying to downplay the SawStop. In fact, it's top of my list for an upcoming tablesaw upgrade. I just wanted to point out that you can still hurt yourself quite badly if you're being an idiot with the saw.

Per Swenson

02-06-2007, 12:45 PM

You can not move your hand faster then that blade drops below the table.

Kevin Groenke

02-06-2007, 10:48 PM

Math is great, but I can have trouble intrpreting the numbers into reality, it's easier for me to understand something I can see.

I mention again the demonstration/test that the Minnesota Woodworkers Guild did last year. A 2' long summer sausage was swung into the spinning blade (vertically, about 45 degrees to the blade) like a baseball bat. (I don't know how fast that is, but I don't see how you could get yourself into the blade much faster) The blade was MOST THE WAY UP...~2.5". The resulting cut was about 3/4 of an inch long, maybe 3/8" deep. A nasty gash for sure, but on any other tablesaw that would have been 2 half sausages...or an arm and a hand. :eek:

Also again, here is a video at WOOD magazine of a similar, but less agressive test.

http://miniurl.org/ (http://miniurl.org/BE6)BE6 (http://miniurl.org/BE6)

http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/sawstop_highspeed.xml

BTW, I hear from SawStop that they are working on a smarter brake that will be more effective in differentiating between meat and metal.

Ron Wessels

02-06-2007, 11:06 PM

Thanks Kevin for injecting some reality in what has been an academic exercise up to now. I hadn't seen the Wood Magazine tests previously, nor had I seen your original report of the Minnesota test. But I think your results can be called definative.

Dave Fifield

02-07-2007, 4:55 AM

Thanks Kevin!

Chris Padilla

02-07-2007, 1:13 PM

Yep, we're done! Good reportin', Kevin! :)

Tim Wagner

02-07-2007, 6:16 PM

This all reminds me of the time i was with my grandfather while he was cutting some wood. Somehow the peice kicked back and shot directly behind where he was standing. he just had a cut in his thumb from the wood ripping out of his hand, but he was lucky he came out with just that. ever since that day I always stood to the side a bit when using a TS. this is a good thread. great find also kevin. :D

Rob Blaustein

02-12-2007, 11:39 AM

The importance of a riving knife: perhaps as important as as any safety device on any saw.
I recently heard of an industrial woodworking accident/incident that occured about a year ago. The incident/accident was the result of a kickback. I researched/investigated the incident to make sure I had the facts correct. The accident occured in a large well equiped manufacturing plant that produces custom and standard molding.
The shop accident occured when a piece of wood kicked back from a stationary saw with a twelve inch rip blade. The wood piece fractured off the original stock and shot back. The projectile, with the combined speed and mass, shot into the female operator at the waist above the pelvic hip bone like a spear...

This same saw on separate occasion involving kickback sent a blunt ended broom handle size piece of wood through and out the other side of a box bin for cut of scrap pieces. It went through two sides of the bin. That is two pieces of 3/4" fir plywood...

I bought a Sawstop table saw because of its riving knife and how well it works in tandem with the saw blade. That was the one piece of advice my retired friend gave me when I went to a woodworking trade show on the west coast. Find a saw that has a riving knife and or splitter that is not cumbersome or a burden to use.
The young women lived
Do you know if the saw at least had a splitter in place? Although I understand the difference between a riving knife and a splitter, I've always wondered what the difference was from a practical perspective. That is, are there kickbacks that have occurred with a splitter that a riving knife would have prevented? My impression is that the difference between the two is incremental and wouldn't be the selling point compared to the overall quality and the brake mechanism.

Steven Wilson

02-12-2007, 11:48 AM

Ok, take some foam board and push it into the back of the blade. With a splitter (NA table saw) you will get kickback, with a properly set up riving knife you won't. With a riving knife the mechanism, when properly setup, is very very close to the blade. On a normal table saw with a splitter the splitter mechanism is quite far away from the blade which will allow the rear teeth to grab wood. The design of a normal table saw doesn't allow for a splitter mechanism to get close enough to the blade. The brake mechanism does nothing to prevent or deter kickback. Just having the brake alone would still allow you to be severly injured by a kickback. It's the riving knife on the sawstop that prevents most of the injuries.

Bryan Rocker

02-16-2007, 8:38 AM

It is good to see people being innovative and coming up with good ways to help keep us from hurting ourselves. Having said that, as a hobbyist I can tell you $2900 is out of my reach. When it came time to buy a replacement saw I looked hard at my checkbook and saw quality. My original short list included the Sears 22124 and the Grizz 1023. Then finances improved slightly combined with a good sale on the Delta X5 and I know have an X5 in my garage for $1400. There is no way I could have swung the $2900. Do I think the technology is good, Yes. It would be a great thing to see all the saw makers come up with retro kits to include this technology.

Good technology is no replacement for paying attention to what you are doing. So many accidents are caused by us forgetting the little details.....

Per Swenson

02-17-2007, 6:44 AM

I just had a thought.

I know its tough.

Most high quality table saws outlive their owners and become

either generational or sold. They don't end up in the scrap yard.

So my thought....I know, does it hurt?

Is that if you look at the price of a saw and its long term return

for you, your son or daughter, or some guy at a auction is peanuts

compared to any injury incurred by anyone.

Remember the body part you save may not be your own.

Per

Rob Bourgeois

02-17-2007, 8:42 AM

Great post Per.

So I should buy high quality tools on my sons birthday. ;)

Per Swenson

02-17-2007, 5:40 PM

Dennis Peacock

02-17-2007, 5:58 PM

Thanks Rob,

I am now of the opinion we should only buy high quality tools.

And some say, I just simply can't afford it.

If you are going to keep and use it for any length of time,

I don't think you can afford not to.

Per

Very well stated Per. But I do remember the days when I couldn't hardly afford a simple measuring tape, much less a quality machine to work with. But looking back, I've lost a LOT of money over the years with the old buy, sell, buy dealings to get better equipment and tools as time progressed.

If I only knew then....what I know now. ;)

Bryan Rocker

02-17-2007, 8:59 PM

Thanks Rob,

I am now of the opinion we should only buy high quality tools.

And some say, I just simply can't afford it.

If you are going to keep and use it for any length of time,

I don't think you can afford not to.

Per
By your standard 90 percent of hobbyist would never pick up woodworking because they could never afford it. There are hundred different ways you can look at it but the bottom line is this, not everybody has the finances to spend that kind of money. Attitudes like this are supported by people who are well to do and consider $3K purchases pocket change, not like the rest of us grunts who have to budget are money to make large purchases in the $1K range let alone the $3K range.

Just remember this ALL mechanical things can fail. There is NO guarentee that the one time YOU are unlucky enough to hit the saw blade that it will work. Just having the technology is NO replacment for a person paying attention to their surroundings and ensuring they operate dangerous machinery in a safe manor.

Per Swenson

02-17-2007, 9:31 PM

Bryan,

What I said was, "I am now of the opinion"

Which if you were accustomed to my brief writing style,

would imply that I once thought exactly as you do.

Except, quite a few years of experience later, I have learned

by making the same purchasing mistakes as everybody else,

that I didn't use my best judgment.

And Bryan, that is why I am here today.

Not to read my own words in print , practice debating skills,

or pen a new comedy routine.

I come here to share my experience so a hobbiest or Professional

woodworker can make a better informed decision.

I am by no means well to do, why just today we had to eat the ducks.

I hope this helps you better understand where I am coming from.

Per

Peter Melanson

02-23-2007, 12:31 PM

I recently bought my Sawstop last week. I do agree the price is steeper than what I preffered and Mr. Gass's approach may not have been the best tactically. There are 2 thing I really considered when buying my first "real" table saw having not used one for many,many years. I was ready to purchase a new Steel City Tools Table saw comaparable in HP and from what I have investigagted the quality for a great price with the rebates and sales over Christmas. Then I started thinking about the safety factor especially since I need my fingers for my job. I had a contractor friend go with me to look at the Steel city and he thought they were great. I also noticed him looking a the SS "very hard". The next week I was in my local WC store and noticed a customer come in with his hand bandaged. I asked one of the employees what happened, he told me that he injured his hand on a table saw but did not lose it. He also mentioned that the guy has been a WW for a long and a judge in town. When I got home I called my contractor buddy and told him I was thinking about the SS and was I crazy, since I over analyze things, and is it worth the extra cash. He said absolutely, he also told me he was look for a new saw and he was getting the SS in the near future. He also told me that he has been doing this for 20 years and does know anyone in the "field" that hasn't had an accident, they may not have lost a finger but there was an injury, and statistically the more you use a table saw the greater the odds of something happening (even if you are the safest person in the world). Check mark number one. So of course I research the SS inside and out for quality since I am a big believer in buying quality equipment. I have found many articles that have recently been published rating the SS exceptionally good which was a plus for me. In talking with my contractor friend again he basically said that the difference between the top 5 - 10 saws out there is very minor and they will all do a great job.
So my second consideration the price: In my mind the safety factor and quality are worth the price for "my peace of mind" (not to mention my wife's) and the quality of what I am getting the SS was the one for me. Yes I did have to wait 2 more months to save the money (after saving for a year already) and I am very happy I waited and bought the SS. Just my thoughts!!!

Bill Lantry

02-23-2007, 12:54 PM

"I am by no means well to do, why just today we had to eat the ducks."

Good one, Per... ;) Ducks don't ski very well, anyway... ;) Hope they were tasty...

I see both sides of this. It's clearly a good idea, especially when combined with a riving knife. Some people can afford the 4k, but not all of us. Most of us have to make do, cobble together, etc. That's why I can't wait for that contractor version to come out. I already have the mods worked out. But just today, I checked the site again, and it still says "coming soon"!

Dang! What's taking so long? ;) Don't they want my money? ;)

Thanks,

Bill

Tim Wagner

02-23-2007, 2:54 PM

well I may get bashed but... If you use push blocks like were supposed to, would this not be an issue?

Al Willits

02-23-2007, 4:53 PM

Tim, I'd think if you used the saw or any tools like there suppose to, it wouldn't be a issue, its the times you don't,that the sawstop or any safety device can help.

I you can afford to buy all the festool/sawstop/high end tools and have to eat ducks, maybe your priorities are a bit different than most of us who consider life first, then hobby's.
So to say because you can do it, so should we,is bs.

Me thinks some forget that woodworking is a hobby to some, and we do just fine with the B squad tools.

Al....who likes being on the B squad, least for woodworking...:)

Steven Wilson

02-23-2007, 5:06 PM

Tim, it's still an issue. You can get injured in a number of ways, amputation is just one of them. IMNHO the riving knife is the single most useful safety feature of the sawstop and push blocks don't take the place of what a riving knife provides.

Anthony Anderson

02-23-2007, 6:21 PM

well I may get bashed but... If you use push blocks like were supposed to, would this not be an issue?

Tim, you are being naive, with all due respect. I was in the local ww store last week, and an employee had a tablesaw accident, doing everything the way he should have been doing it, push sticks, guard etc (according to him, I did not see the accident occur). The right index finger was removed down to about the second knuckle, and the thumb was taken half way off. Even when we do things the correct way, using the safety equipment that we are supposed to use, things still go wrong. I suspect even the SawStop will fail as well, one day, when the user depends on it. A person can take all of the precautions in the world, and bad things can still happen. SawStop is, just as others have said, just another layer of protection, and it happens to be a quality saw as well. Regards, Bill

Tim Wagner

02-25-2007, 1:12 AM

So who has the best prices?

Calvin Crutchfield

02-26-2007, 4:28 AM

I recently took my wife into the local woodcraft. She is awesome by the way!

She asked me why I didnt have that cool black saw with the safety features on it? I said, I dunno, I like my saw and that one is expensive.

I have a General 650 that is about 5 yrs old. I just installed a Jessem Slide and have it tweaked nicely.

So my question is this:

Will I be losing anything in quality or functionality by getting the 5hp SS? From what I read, I kind of gain...beefier machine, Riving knife, safety and some have mentioned better dust collection...is this true? If so how.

My wife even said she would pay the delta in price after I sold my currrent saw!!!

I just want to make sure I will not lose any quality or functionality. Afterall, being North American made and baldor equipped was a strong selling point and the SS is a Taiwanese production. It would be great if current SS owners could chime in on the quality. That is, I do not need to rehash the $$ issue nor the technology of the safety featurs of the SS. Only how it rates against other TS's in all other categories.

I have attached a picture of my current tablesaw and a picture of a $2600 surgey circa Jun 2002. This happened as the blade was spinning down and I reached for a small piece of wood. Have no clue how it happened, but bet your butt that evertime I am near a blade now, I think and rethink my moves. If I am ever in a hurry, I stop and go in the house and take a break.

George Lohnes

03-03-2007, 11:30 PM

Dave Fifield

03-04-2007, 6:12 PM

If I were you George, I'd be looking for a divorce right now.....seriously, she doesn't think your fingers are worth saving? That's crazy!!

Calvin Crutchfield

03-04-2007, 6:59 PM

Obviously you won't be able to find a best price with an item with such price controls, but I got the 5hp with 52" fence and table for under 4k out the door.
My source had the freight listed as $145 vs. the $425 mandated cost for CA Freight. Timing was great so I jumped. Of course then I had to spend $300 on the htc base and another 60 or so to upgrade my electrical ckt to a 30amp.

Will be delivered on Tuesday morning and my General 650 was sold on Friday.

Saw 2799
2hp upgrade 200
fence 369
table 99
freight 145
+ tax

Art Mann

03-11-2007, 8:46 PM

Lets see if I can enumerate all the facts I have learned from this thread.

1. Any hobbiest woodworker who uses a tablesaw without an instant stop mechanism and a riving knife, will eventually lose some appendage or get punctured by a large wooden object. It is inevitable.:eek:

2. The only tool worth buying is the most expensive top of the line model. Any other purchasing decision is a mistake.:rolleyes:

3. The first thing a typical woodworker does when starting a new project is to buy $1000 worth of lumber @ $10 a board foot.;)

4. One should allow at least $20,000 to get started in woodworking in order to cover the cost of $4000 tablesaws, $1000 loose tenon cutters, $3000 12" jointers, $400 orbital sanders, $500 little green vacuum cleaners and and all the other essential items.:(

I think I will take up knitting. :D

Steven Wilson

03-12-2007, 2:47 PM

Yep, except it's a 1000 BF of lumber @ $10/BF

Kyle Kraft

03-12-2007, 2:51 PM

Well said, Art.

Craig D Peltier

03-25-2007, 2:11 PM

For me I didnt really know what a saw stop was.I mean I got the idea but I finally found a good explanation.
:
"As for the safety features, I've haven't put the brake to the test. Like the air bag in your car, the Sawstop system includes an extensive startup and continuous self test while idle and running. And like your air bag it's very costly to "test." You get only one emergency stop per blade and brake. Besides $70 for a new brake, it's another $50-100 for a new blade. It's pretty high tech. The brake is a special aluminum block and electronic assembly with a fusible (i.e. burnable) wire holding the spring loaded brake block assembly in position. When the electronics "fires" after detecting contact with human flesh, the fusible wire is burned through by a high electric current "pulse". When the wire burns through, the spring loaded aluminum block is shoved into the spinning blade. The blade cuts deeply into the block, and the block absorbs the considerable momentum energy of the blade, arbor, belt and motor. The result is that the blade and block get hot enough near the teeth of the blade to unsolder or weaken the teeth on the blade. In short the blade is ruined 50% of the time according to one web site I found that had tested the unit. Once the emergency brake has been fired you need to replace the whole brake assembly (like the air bag), which includes the brake, spring, retaining fusible wire, firing electronics including capacitor, and brake frame assembly. Replacement only takes a couple of minutes. Despite the cost, it is still better than paying for a new finger. Two friends have lost 2.5 fingers collectively from table saws. And both were experienced woodworkers."

Pretty cool.What technology. Its come along ways here.

Ron Blaise

03-25-2007, 5:13 PM

I would have saved myself a trip to the E-room last year, not to mention pain, a bloody mess to clean up and no wood working till it healed. Was it my fault? Of course! I work in an industry (Automotive) where we have to spend millions of dollars each year to try to protect people from themselves because they are too stupid or stubborn to follow common sense safety rules. So why all the complaining because someone came up with a great idea? Machines don't care about human life, only other people do. My 2 cents worth :rolleyes:

Jonathon Spafford

03-26-2007, 12:17 AM

I am curious if anybody on this forum has tried sticking there fingers in the blade for the fun of it ??? ;) Ok... kind of an expensive experiment!

Anway... I personally think that the SS is the only way to go if woodworking is a big hobby. Statistics are against you and most of those guys that you see that have done woodworking for 50+ years are missing a finger or two. You only have to pay for a SS once, and the 2.7 grand (plus brake and blade) seem a good alternative to paying at least that much for surgery on your fingers. Some say they can't afford it... but the question is can you afford losing a finger plus the surgery that will follow? There are always those moments of carelessness or those unpreventable accidents and the SS just helps to cover for those moments... I thing it is worth it!

Mark Singer

03-26-2007, 9:56 AM

I own a SawStop...it is not because I don't know how to use a cabinet saw safely...I do! It is because anything can happen to anyone at anytime. Not on purpose....by accident....that is why its called an accident. Race car drivers are excellent drivers....still they die racing ...it happens all the time. If the cars did not have seat belts and they were not wearing special cloting and a helmet .....it would happen more often.
When you think of the design of such a saw....the mechanism to drop and stop the blade is more complicated than a simple saw that is just spining....it is more complicated than a Euro slider that is a spining with a sliding table attached....its priced correctly IMHO....besides being a safer saw, its a higher quality saw than the best cabinet saws...my last saw was a PM 66....the SawStop is smoother...less vibration and very accurate....like with many things in life.....I forgot the cost long ago....now I just enjoy the saw and knowledge that just in case me or my son use it and someting happens, it safer

Craig D Peltier

03-26-2007, 11:49 PM

FYI In finewoodworking basic power tools page 29. Sawstop is coming out with a contractors saw mid 2007. No price lsited but there was a pic.Reminded me of dewalt kind of tonka toyish top.
Maybe $1500?
Hmm says blade stops in 5 milliseconds and it says theres a video of it in action on there website.

Ray Harkness

03-27-2007, 12:37 AM

I came here to see what kind of debate was occuring about this saw.

I went to my local Woodcraft store to get advice on what powertools should be considered essential to someone who is just starting out with making furniture.

A cabinetmakers saw was the first. Then I was shown the Powermatic and the SawStop. The price difference between the two was $1300. I've been doing alot of research and after reading the posts here I can say that I will most definitely be buying this saw. I have an annoying habit to my family and friends.

I will not jump into something until I can afford to purchase the best. I hade a crappy 20 year-old TV until I could save enough money to get a top-of-the-line HDTV 61". Same thing for the surround sound.

With my wife's hobbies of scrapbooking and quilting, I insist that she has teh best tools. We save up and get the tools when the money is there. We don't buy lesser quality tools and then get better tools later.

So, now I'll be delaying my entry into the woodworking hobby until I have the money saved up to purchase the tools that I want. I've determined that it will take about $6,200 in capital to get started:

$3400 SawStop
$800 Powermatic 6" Jointer (with 66" deck)
$600 DeWalt 3 blade 13" planer
$900 Powermatic 14" Band Saw
$500 Sales Tax

I'm not made of money, but every decision is highly analyzed and these costs are added to the budget and we juggle money around to try and afford it. If I cannot have the tools I want, then I won't start.

But from an anecdotal basis, my wife is an ER Trauma nurse. She said that in the past 6 months she has seen at least 10 table saw injuries in her ER and that was between the hours of 3PM and 3AM (her particular shift). She said of those most were involving amputations.

So, I ran the numbers. My annual out-of-pocket maximum is $2000 and that doesn't include the co-pays. So I could easily max out around $3000 for one major trip to the ER. That would be almost the cost of the saw in and of itself. PLus there are alot of other expenses that come with a serious bad injury. The cost could go up even more, if it happens near the end of the year and you roll over into a new insurance year.

If you don't have insurance (which if you listen to the news is a fair chunk of the US population), the cost of even a slight injury requiring a trip to the ER can add up to quite a price tag.

Craig D Peltier

03-28-2007, 6:50 PM

This is to Mark or anyone else who may know. How close does meat have to get to it to shutoff, touch right? I was just wondering cause if your hand says gets 1/8" is it going to shut off and if its in a bad mood one day will it shut off at a quarter inch etc. I looked on there site and from what I can tell by videos its only if your sking actually hits it.Is this correct.
WOW woodworking has come along way!
Said a TS accident every 9 minutes. 60000 a year. 1-20 odds

I own a SawStop...it is not because I don't know how to use a cabinet saw safely...I do! It is because anything can happen to anyone at anytime. Not on purpose....by accident....that is why its called an accident. Race car drivers are excellent drivers....still they die racing ...it happens all the time. If the cars did not have seat belts and they were not wearing special cloting and a helmet .....it would happen more often.
When you think of the design of such a saw....the mechanism to drop and stop the blade is more complicated than a simple saw that is just spining....it is more complicated than a Euro slider that is a spining with a sliding table attached....its priced correctly IMHO....besides being a safer saw, its a higher quality saw than the best cabinet saws...my last saw was a PM 66....the SawStop is smoother...less vibration and very accurate....like with many things in life.....I forgot the cost long ago....now I just enjoy the saw and knowledge that just in case me or my son use it and someting happens, it safer

Sandeep Singh

08-09-2010, 12:34 AM

I am in the woodworking industry for more then 20 years and I have yet to see/hear someone who would like to compromise his/her safety in any manner whatsoever. So any gadget that protects anyone from loosing fingers/hands is not expensive.

SS should NOT be looked at as a relief, as it surely does not replace alertness the carefulness. But also anyone who looks at SS and says that it could fail does not appreciate his or her life enough. :eek:

SawStop's slogan is right....NOT IF, WHEN! :(

Money or no money SS is a step in the right direction.

I would like to see variants of this kind of Gadget to be integrated in all kinds of machines where the risk of injury is ever present.

Don Alexander

08-09-2010, 12:41 AM

my fingers and my sons are worth it...I have them all after all these years and they are valuable....more so than the additional cost
I didn't mean to start anything...this is more of a report from a user after a few months:confused:

DISCLAIMER: this is not a comment about the sawstop at all. just to clarify in advance

hmmmm a few months of saw stop and years of other saws and still have your fingers intact; guess that means you have safely used said other saws for most of your woodworking career ... glad to hear that and wishing you many more years of safe saw usage :)

Neal Clayton

08-09-2010, 12:50 AM

I think my favorite line on the whole SawStop controversy came from my wife....

I was trying to justify buying a SawStop and said to my wife "aren't my fingers worth $3000?? At which time, she picked up my most recent Grizzly catologue... turned to one of the cabinet saw pages... and said "nope... they're only worth $975 (apparantly the price of the Grizzly).

Needless to say... I now have a grizzly saw

:D

congrats on finding a wife with logic/reason.

there is quite a list of things that can go wrong using a table saw. if you have a tendency to put your hand in the blade you'll likely get hit in the face well before that happens anyways, which will also be your fault, just like putting your hand in the blade would be ;).

Cliff Rohrabacher

08-09-2010, 11:06 AM

There is only one point of contention about any of that stuff that gets my attention and when it does it is all negative.
It is when idiots try to pass laws to protect me from me.

Other than that, you and any one else , can have all the self stopping, shielded, riving knife equipped, Pre-dulled at the factory, face shielded, air re-breathing safety stuff your, and any one else's, little hearts desire.

It's no skin off my nose if the guy over there likes some gizmoes that make him feel safer. Maybe they actually make him safer. It's not any of my business.

Neal Clayton

08-09-2010, 7:26 PM

Scott Shepherd

08-09-2010, 7:46 PM

You all do realize that this post is 3 1/2 years old and a new member with one post brought it to the front page?

Joe Chritz

08-10-2010, 12:11 AM

Don,

You'll me amazed/floored/stymied/perplexed/wowed at how bloody FAST the saw blade drops below the table saw top. I swear if you blink, you'll miss it! The SS is a very impressive table saw from many different angles.

Not sure if anyone else posted but you blink at about 300-400 milliseconds per blink. The blade on a trigger with the Sawstop is about 1 millisecond, a couple more to fully retract.

High cost medical accidents cost me money when other people have them. When insurance starts only costing the people who get hurt then I really couldn't care much what they do. It is also the only reason I am for seat belts and airbags and other safety features in vehicles.

Joe

Cliff Rohrabacher

08-10-2010, 1:14 PM

for 90% of the people i'd wager it's not anything to do with that, it's more about bragging about having one.

i have seen a new sawstop thread on this forum at least once a week for a year now.

in that year there has been maybe one discussing how to align a fence and the table tops.

And from all appearances I believe they are superbly well built saws. Damn fine looking too.
For my money though there nothing like the safety & utility you get from a slider.

Bill Davis

01-15-2011, 8:10 PM

There may be an alternative product just around the bend. http://www.whirlwindtool.com/

Brian Ashton

01-16-2011, 2:13 AM

I think the technology is great but I would never buy a ss simply because of his attempt to legislate it on everyone. When PM, Delta, or Makita implement it I would most likely buy it if I were in the market for a table saw.

Greg Peterson

01-16-2011, 12:28 PM

I like the fact that this particular safety device doesn't ruin the blade and that it allows the operator to immediately continue working. It seems as if this technology forces the operator to use best practices in the first place.

This unit has three major advantages over SS: retro fit existing TS, does not destroy or damage the blade, allows operator to simply press a button to continue working.

I like it. I also like the fact that it lights the work.

Ron Natalie

01-16-2011, 1:36 PM

You just have to turn the key and engage the special hot dog cutting mode.

David Butler

01-16-2011, 1:37 PM

As the inventor, I guess I'm not supposed to mention the name of "the alternate." I simply don't understand these forums and don't want to be accused of advertising although I have nothing to sell to any consumer, and never will, I just have safety patents to offer the woodworking machinery industry and no money to advertise.

I'd like to engage in the discussion and give a much more detailed account but I don't wish to be kicked off the forum so let me just ask you good folks to stay tuned. We're getting closer. "Thinks safety twice and cut once."

Regards,

David

Garth Keel

01-17-2011, 11:53 AM

For some reason as I get older I find that I am a little more clumsy than I remember? being in the past. So I am looking at the SS or a slider even though a retired teacher will have to eat gruel for a while.

Andrew Pitonyak

01-17-2011, 4:03 PM

'Tis I! ;)

Yes, a pricey hot dog cutting machine and you know what: it does a LOUSY job of cutting hot dogs. I want my money back! :mad:
I disagree, I run my hot dog through the machine a few times and I don't need to poke it with a fork (but I do have to change the blade and brake a few times).

Cheryl Lewis

01-22-2011, 12:01 PM

I actually saw the Sawstop being demonstrated at IWF in Atlanta this past summer. Unbelievable.

Greg Peterson

01-22-2011, 1:14 PM

I actually saw the Sawstop being demonstrated at IWF in Atlanta this past summer. Unbelievable.

Yes, the Saw Stop creates a very impressive demonstration. It is one of the most significant safety devices introduced in many generations.

That said, the SS creates some very passionate opinions that cover a surprising range of territory.

You may want to review some of the previous posts on this thread to get a handle on some of the perspectives on the SS.

That said, the SS is a great idea.

Curt Harms

01-23-2011, 9:04 AM

I kind of chuckle when people rail about Sawstop destroying blades. If false activations were commonplace, like once a week, I could understand it. But here's a choice:

Buy 30 or more premium 10" blades like Forrest WWII or Freud Fusion
Have one or more fingers amputated or at least become useless.

You MUST pick one. Which one would you choose? Of course everyone is going to pick #3 neither. I'll bet most people who've had table saw accidents didn't plan on getting hurt.

Ken Fitzgerald

01-23-2011, 10:26 AM

Curt,

I'll argue with that one.

The other alternative is to use a regular table saw, use careful techniques and not get injured. The thing a lot of SS zealots fail to realize is that there are a lot of T/S owners that haven't been injured.

What will be your remark when the first SS owner is injured when in the by-pass mode or when the safety mechanism fails?

Don't tell me it won't fail. I have made a fine living for over 40 years installing, maintaining and repairing electronics that wasn't supposed to fail. If it's electronic and or electro-mechanical it will fail and nobody can predict exactly how it will fail in one given instance.