Staircase Railing Question

[Frank Snyder]

I've been recruited to design and build this Craftsman-style railing for a friend and she wants the railing to be removable so that she can move furniture through the stairwell without any problems. It's an older home, so things are a little tight to begin with as far as space and clearances go.

I've seen Tom Silva use the Invis system (invisible magnetic fasteners) to join railing sections, which would really be ideal for this application. However, the cost is a bit much, so I'm exploring other economical options. If I can't find any, I'll take the hit and buy into the Invis system (I'm sure I'll find more uses for it down the road).

So my question is this...has anyone here either seen or built a removable railing system that didn't use the Invis system?

Here's some shots of what the staircase looks like now...I'm also pulling out all of the existing treads and risers (and the really bad trim job), installing new skirtboards, treads and risers. It'll look like a whole new staircase when I'm done.

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cont'd...

[Frank Snyder]

This is the new design I came up with in Sketchup using all of the real-world dimensions and constraints...

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[Frank Snyder]

I'll be working on this project over the next few weeks and I'll follow up with pictures. I've done staircases and railings before, but they were the non-removable kind. This was the last one I did...

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[Richard Wolf]

If I can make a few points that may help you. First, I would forget about using the s turn at the point where the rail and wall meet, if you are not goining to have it inspected. This is always a weak point and one that will not leed itself to making the rail removable. Die into the wall and hang the handrail on brakets for removeal.
Use screws to mount the posts and rails and cover with button plugs that are not glued, for removal.
If you are using a sub rail, like in the drawings, the rail, balusters and subrail can be screwed together to be removed as one piece.
I am not sold on the invis system, and you will always have to be availible to remove it for your friend. Screws or even rail bolts would be a much better choice to make any part removable.

Richard

[Frank Snyder]

Richard - Thank you for taking the time to respond this this question. I agree, as cool as the Invis system is, I would still need to leave a $125 Invis drill attachment with the homeowner so that they could remove it down the road.

The city's and county's building codes have some issue with non-continuous railings and transitions, so I'm not sure if I can get away with what you suggest. The sub railing would still dive into the wall to lend some additional strength to that area, followed by a railing bracket thereafter.

In place of the Invis connectors, I thought perhaps hanger bolts, nuts and washers used in conjunction with dowels (or metal studs) would work as well (to keep the railing from twisting). At least then, convential tools and wisdom could disassemble the railing. I'd also like to make the bottom railing section once piece as well as you suggested. Do you have any tricks for allowing access to the newel post plate to remove the newel post, or would they have to remove the trim to get to the screw heads? Maybe I could use hinges or something to allow access? I'm working on that idea...

Thanks again.

[Steve Clardy]

Not sure about the handrail. Thinking---------------

Use a newel post lock to mount the newel post.
It could be bumped on and off as needed.

Make sure theres plenty of meat under the landing, tread, to mount it though

[Frank Snyder]

Steve - I'm not familar with a "newel post lock". I've seen the post plates...could you PM a link if you know where I can could find them (I tried Googling "newel post lock"...not much came up). I've also seen some installs which use a couple of threaded rods to secure the newel post from the top, though I think I'd need more vertical space than I have to lift it off. Another install used a hollow newel which was bolted from the inside and you needed quite a long extension for your socket wrench to get to the nuts.

Thanks for your help.

[Steve Clardy]

Fastener Unlimited, Inc.

Part # 6286


http://www.fastenerunlimited.com/



Route out for the plate and fasten.
Lag bolt goes in bottom of newel.
Lag slides into plate

[Frank Snyder]

Very Cool! Thanks, Steve. I'm assuming that these are plenty strong? Once the railing is connected, it's not going to want to twist, correct? I've just never seen this type of fastener so forgive me for asking stupid questions. It sort looks like a heavy-duty keyhole plate.

Thanks again!

[Steve Clardy]

Yes. Very strong.

Mark where the newel is to go.
Tighten lag bolt so that newel slides to within a 3/16" or so of your stop mark. Block of wood and hammer, tap it on over to your mark.
The lock plate is tapered, tightening it up as you drive it home.

I won't use anything else if I can't get under a floor, step, to secure a newel.

[Frank Snyder]

Thanks again, Steve. It's refreshing to know such solutions exist. I e-mailed Fastener Unlimited and asked where I could find a dealer for their products.

[Steve Clardy]

Anyone that carries L.J. Smith staircase items, can get them, or have them.

[Richard Wolf]

If the work you are doing is a remodel, as it appears, it does not have to meet exsisting building codes. Only codes that were is exsistance at the time of construction, which most likely did not require a continuous handrail, would apply. The other option is to hang a full lenght handrail on the other wall. This will not make the staircase any narrower, will meet code and can be removable.
I am a big fan of using rail bolts, (hanger bolts) to mount my post. The plate that Steve suggests does work well, but care must be taken to install it correctly for a secure application.

Richard

[Steve Clardy]

I'm with Richard on that rail. It needs to be run into the walls, not a continuos rail like shown.

Maybe you could put a rosette on the short rail at the wall.
Attach rosette to wall, then screw and plug the rosette to the wall.
Those screws could be removed.

[Frank Snyder]

Thanks, Richard. It is technically a "remodel", or more accurately, "fixing or repairing an existing structure" as the city sees it. Since I'm working with the homeowner on a personal basis, as far as the city knows, the homeowner is doing the work and I'm just advising ;). Even still, if a nosy neighbor decided to blow the whistle and notify the city, I would just want to make sure the work that was being done was according to their municipal code. Being that it is an older home (1920's), there are grandfather clauses like you described which would probably exonorate me or the homeowner in the event that they did get involved. Personally, I like to bring everything up to code if I can. It is sometimes impossible on older homes. The homeowner also preferred having the continuous hand railing, so I'm going to have to go that route anyway. I think using the combination of hardware available (KeyLock, MiniLock, and RailLock) will make this possible.

I did have one more question...should I use a rosette where the railing/sub-railing butt into the wall or do you think I can get away without using one? Since the railing needs to be removable, it probably makes more sense to use them since they will protect the wall and provide a better substrate for the screws. Aesthetically, I'm not crazy about them, but I see their advantages in this application.

[Frank Snyder]

I've been limited to working on this project on weekends only, so it seems to be taking me a lot longer to finish this one. There were actually 2 layers of treads and risers on this staircase, which really screwed up the rise for the first and last step. Apparently a flooring guy just cut the nosings off the existing treads, then set the new treads and risers in a bed of liquid nails and sunk about 20 18 ga. brads into each tread, then used excessive amounts of molding to cover the gaps.

The homeowner wasn't crazy about the excessive use of molding on her existing staircase, so for this project I routed dadoes into the underside of the treads to receive the risers for a nice clean look. The outside treads needed a stop dado, which I made on my Festool toys. I also picked up a Wheaton tread template jig so that I could get a perfect fit for each tread and riser. The starter step was also a lot of fun to make. I made a series of relief cuts on my table saw to the back side of the riser so that only 3/32 of material was left, then I wrapped and clamped it around a 2x form slathered in polyurethane adhesive.

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cont'd...

[Frank Snyder]

After removing the 2 layers of treads and risers, I had to recalculate the rise and make custom shims for each step. These I glued and screwed to the existing stringers. Next task was to cut the new skirtboards out of 1x12 Poplar. I used screws and plugs on the skirtboards which allowed me to control how much it hugged the contoured wall. The inside skirtboards were no problem, but the outside skirtboard wall was out of plumb and messed up my first attempt. My second attempt was much better and my mitered outside corners closed up nicely and went into their respective dadoes without too much trouble.

After all of the treads and risers were cut to fit, I had to fasten the staircase backwards, working from top down rather than bottom up. This was due to a 2" drywall ledge which was directly above one side of the top tread which had to be slid under the ledge in order to fit. This backwards technique also allowed me to fasten the tread to the risers using pocket screws from underneath, rather than screw from above and behind. I still prefer the bottom up approach, but I didn't have a choice with the constraints on this staircase.

In addition to the pocket screws, each tread was set in a bead polyurethane adhesive, then screwed to the stringer and riser from above and pluged with home made side grain plugs to match. The homeowner's husband is painting the risers and skirtboards this week, then I go back this weekend to install the removable railing. I'll post more pics once it is all finished.

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[Richard Wolf]

They look good Frank. I know you will be glad to get them done.

Richard

[Frank Snyder]

Well...this project is finally finished. The railing is completely removable using a combination of KeyLocks and MiniLocks. All you need is a block of wood, a hammer and a screwdriver. I followed Richard's and Steve's advice and made the railing sections separate instead of continuous (thank you both for this sound advice). I encounterd a wide variety of obstacles with this project and I'll think twice before attempting another project like this with an older home.

Thanks for viewing.

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[Dan Oliphant]

Nice job Frank, turned out real well.

[Richard Wolf]

Well it looks good from here. Well done.

Richard

[Glenn Clabo]

Nice job Frank...looks great. And yes stairmakers are a very special breed. I have always been in awe of the ability to overcome those "obstacles".

[Steve Clardy]

Turned out real nice Frank.
A big thumbs up to ya!!

[Bill Simmeth]

Great job Frank!

[Frank Snyder]

Thanks again, guys. I envy those who get to install new staircases in vacant new homes where there are less obstacles (and homeowners) to conted with ;). Staircases are challenging enough to build...

[Steve Clardy]

I just finished this one, along with all the cabinets, and all the base trim in the house.
This was pretty well cut and dried. No curves, etc.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=51758

Post 26

[Dennis Puskar]

Frank I must say you do some very nice work,very nice.

Dennis

[Paul Girouard]

Frank where you the guy doing his own stair case the one with the turn and removable handrail from a couple of months ago? Did you finish that yet , or was it someone else?

[Frank Snyder]

Dennis - Thanks for the compliment. The real staircase experts are Steve Clardy and Richard Wolf, both of whom provided me with their wisdom and advice for this project. Without their help, I'd still be scratching my head.

Paul - Good memory. Yep, that was me. I updated that thread with the finished product about a month ago (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=79891&page=2).

Frank