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Richard Graniczny
01-16-2007, 7:06 PM
I am/will be a complete newbie when it comes to woodworking and I am looking for equipment suggestions. I am a graphic artist specializing in turn of the century design elements in vector. I am starting to get a large request base to make our graphics available to woodworkers. Being a perfectionist at heart, I want to be able to try the designs out in wood before I offer them. This will probably be the extent of my involvement in woodworking. I had seriously looked at the CarveWright machine but have seen some horror stories in the forums at that site. I am not looking for something that will be problem plagued. I need a small sized, fast but dependable machine to use for testing purposes. Speed is essential due to the extremely large size of the portfolio. In addition I may start the conversion process for 3d vector models in v3m, stl and rlf formats. Thank you in advance for any input.
Richard

Joseph B. Chritz
01-16-2007, 7:41 PM
Richard,
You may be better off finding someone close that already loves woodworking and has some CNC equipment. They will also have the necessary equipment to prepare the wood, storage space for extra material, finishing capability, and more. They can invest the hours needed to become proficient and pay for the equipment. They can be responsible for repairs and overhead. You can concentrate with what you are good at and already enjoy. After watching this work for a while you can decide when you want to take over more.
If the first person doesn't work out to your liking, try somebody new.
Who knows, you may find you really like woodworking. There are worse things.
Joseph

Bruce Volden
01-16-2007, 8:00 PM
Richard,


I am fairly certain that you could get by NOT having any "machinery" to test out your graphics!!! There are many of us out "here" who are always looking for new files and would be more than willing to be guinea pigs~per se. I would hate to recommend -A- machine for you to use as many machines are running under different applications. There are quite a few "coders" out there who are (I think) making a nice supplemental income just converting things to various formats for use int the engraving/CNC industries. I think this may be the way to approach things. I know I will try to help you out as I'm often looking for things to use with my Corel progarms. I also have a CW machine but as yet haven't played with the software much yet~TOO BUSY!!


Bruce

Dave Fifield
01-16-2007, 8:30 PM
Which centrury Richard?

Rodne Gold
01-16-2007, 10:56 PM
In essence , you need to create the designs with the maximum portability across packages used , and in all likelyhood eithe EPS or PDF format will be best as both can contain vector and raster info and are importable into just about any design package.As to equipment , well a medium duty overhead type router , like a 2nd hand Techno/isel with a 900 W kress router and some basic interolation/postprocessor software would enable you to test at a fairly low cost , a package like engravelab or profilelab will drive a machine like that and allow quasi 3d interopolation , limited V carving ,etc etcA small 500mm x 500m or 1m x 500 mm machine , with a micro stepper 3d controller will probably set you back like $3k for a 2nd hand one and the software etc , most likely another 2k. this would be limited as compared to heavy duty machinery however , large full 3d servo feedback overhead routers with high freq/high power spindles and tool changers along with software like artcam or mastercam or the like can reach 50k+ VERY easily.Im not quite sure what you want to test tho , if the graphic is importable , it should work with any other package. Your toolpaths etc would not be the same as others , it depends on the brand of machine , the controller , the machines capabilities and the front end design package the machine operator uses as to what they are capable of doing with your graphic.By far a better investment than machinery would be professional design packages meant for this type of work that can export to various formats. Problem here is that one size doesnt fit all either , but something like Autocad with some add on aftermarket packages would probably be an inteligent choice.

Richard Graniczny
01-17-2007, 1:35 AM
Richard,
You may be better off finding someone close that already loves woodworking and has some CNC equipment. They will also have the necessary equipment to prepare the wood, storage space for extra material, finishing capability, and more. They can invest the hours needed to become proficient and pay for the equipment. They can be responsible for repairs and overhead. You can concentrate with what you are good at and already enjoy. After watching this work for a while you can decide when you want to take over more.
If the first person doesn't work out to your liking, try somebody new.
Who knows, you may find you really like woodworking. There are worse things.
Joseph

My 1st inclination was to to do as you suggest. After research, the closest outfit was about 40 miles away and they wanted some decent rates to do the work which I totally understand. I don't drive anymore which created an additional problem...lol. When I was asking around, there seemed to be a pentup demand as everyone I asked was willing to use us if I started it. The wood I can get for free so that is no problem and my intent was to hire someone locally to actually do the work with our equipment. It is the sheer number of designs that chokes most people...lol,(over 15,000,000 at last official count in early 2005) and made me consider doing it in house. I have not even decided as to whether the end sales will merit the time and cost involved for this particular market. The joy of woodworking is there as we did all the gingerbread work to our home when we built it...it's the time factor that is the killer.
Richard

Richard Graniczny
01-17-2007, 1:49 AM
Richard,


I am fairly certain that you could get by NOT having any "machinery" to test out your graphics!!! There are many of us out "here" who are always looking for new files and would be more than willing to be guinea pigs~per se. I would hate to recommend -A- machine for you to use as many machines are running under different applications. There are quite a few "coders" out there who are (I think) making a nice supplemental income just converting things to various formats for use int the engraving/CNC industries. I think this may be the way to approach things. I know I will try to help you out as I'm often looking for things to use with my Corel progarms. I also have a CW machine but as yet haven't played with the software much yet~TOO BUSY!!
Bruce

Hey I may take you up on that... seriously. You don't need to be a "coder" to convert to differing formats...that is an easy one. There are enough aps out there that are the rosetta stones for conversions. I have some Corel software but tend not to use it as my scripting needs are greater than what Corel offers. I am trying to get some first hand knowlege so that I can evaluate and create through the eyes and needs of a woodworker. If you want to play with some designs, drop me a line at: artgrafx@artgrafx.com

No site...just email...lol.

Richard

Richard Graniczny
01-17-2007, 1:54 AM
Which centrury Richard?


Actually from about the 12th through the 19th centrury. Heavy on mid 1800's to early 1900's. Most are based on works from those times but all are original interpretations on the themes. Have some modern such as Tribal but I really don't like them and do them as client requests.

Richard

Richard Graniczny
01-17-2007, 2:12 AM
In essence , you need to create the designs with the maximum portability across packages used , and in all likelyhood eithe EPS or PDF format will be best as both can contain vector and raster info and are importable into just about any design package.As to equipment , well a medium duty overhead type router , like a 2nd hand Techno/isel with a 900 W kress router and some basic interolation/postprocessor software would enable you to test at a fairly low cost , a package like engravelab or profilelab will drive a machine like that and allow quasi 3d interopolation , limited V carving ,etc etcA small 500mm x 500m or 1m x 500 mm machine , with a micro stepper 3d controller will probably set you back like $3k for a 2nd hand one and the software etc , most likely another 2k. this would be limited as compared to heavy duty machinery however , large full 3d servo feedback overhead routers with high freq/high power spindles and tool changers along with software like artcam or mastercam or the like can reach 50k+ VERY easily.Im not quite sure what you want to test tho , if the graphic is importable , it should work with any other package. Your toolpaths etc would not be the same as others , it depends on the brand of machine , the controller , the machines capabilities and the front end design package the machine operator uses as to what they are capable of doing with your graphic.By far a better investment than machinery would be professional design packages meant for this type of work that can export to various formats. Problem here is that one size doesnt fit all either , but something like Autocad with some add on aftermarket packages would probably be an inteligent choice.

To be truthful, most of what you just said went over my head...lol. Do these machines need proprietary software? I have most graphic aps on the market. Does anyone know is this CarveWright machine is even worth the bother? It piqued my interest due to the dimensional 3d carving abilities and creating 3d models is one of our skillsets. My designs are available in most known 2d/3d formats but I find the legacy Adobe Illustrator 3.0 .ai and .eps files to be the most compatible with other software programs. I do not know if this is the case for hardware.

Is it known if there is a dealer carrying multiple brands where a person could see and touch in the Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas area?

Richard
Richard

Frank Corker
01-17-2007, 6:52 AM
Richard,

Most of the users here use Corel packages, it gets the job done perfectly. Other programs popular are Photograv (used for graphics to be dithered to suit individual laser machines), AI and EPS formats are used a lot. If you want 3D stuff, forget the laser and go with a CNC machine, it will do the job, lasers can do 3D stuff but it is long arduous and not fantastic results. There are plenty of posts regarding those.

For lasers, 2D stuff, engraving wood, acrylic, marble, granite, glass, leather and on occasions crab shells. It is a very versitile piece of equipment and in a class of it's own. If you are cutting woods you are looking at about three quarter inch max with most of the average lasers, any more than that, wrong machine.


As for the Carvewright, initially it was looking like being a really cheap 'extra' for current laser owners to have. Some excellent examples were turned out in the beginning but interest has petered out, the final finish was not to the standard they desired.

Well that's my contribution, my only other comment would be, if you buy the laser it's fun to work with and most definitely the best bit of kit around, the results are outstanding and there is very little that can touch it.

.

Richard Graniczny
01-17-2007, 7:09 AM
Richard,

Most of the users here use Corel packages, it gets the job done perfectly. Other programs popular are Photograv (used for graphics to be dithered to suit individual laser machines), AI and EPS formats are used a lot. If you want 3D stuff, forget the laser and go with a CNC machine, it will do the job, lasers can do 3D stuff but it is long arduous and not fantastic results. There are plenty of posts regarding those.

For lasers, 2D stuff, engraving wood, acrylic, marble, granite, glass, leather and on occasions crab shells. It is a very versitile piece of equipment and in a class of it's own. If you are cutting woods you are looking at about three quarter inch max with most of the average lasers, any more than that, wrong machine.


As for the Carvewright, initially it was looking like being a really cheap 'extra' for current laser owners to have. Some excellent examples were turned out in the beginning but interest has petered out, the final finish was not to the standard they desired.

Well that's my contribution, my only other comment would be, if you buy the laser it's fun to work with and most definitely the best bit of kit around, the results are outstanding and there is very little that can touch it.

.

I appreciate the info. I really had not considered a laser as most of the inquiries I was getting were specific to wood and cnc use. I am at the feeling out process at this stage, to determine if I want to jump into this new arena.
Richard

Frank Corker
01-17-2007, 7:54 AM
Richard, I understand your thoughts there, it's a wide open field. Regards the laser, don't be frightened by everything you read, you are a graphics man right, when you print your work out it's exactly what you want. Now imagine everything you do in black and white instead of colour and instead of white paper you have a piece of wood or marble. That is what the laser is. A big printer that prints with ink made of light.

Joseph B. Chritz
01-17-2007, 11:51 AM
Hi Richard,
If I understand correctly,I think you are exactly right, that it means a lot to have a piece that you can actually pick up, look at, and decide if it's what you want.
If it's enough to stick with projects that can be drawn in 2D then you can't beat a laser. They are fast and relatively easy to operate, not much more than using a printer. You can work with wood, plastics, fabric, cork, etc., but you will be limited in the thickness of the material. It will cost about $15,000.00 to get started.
If you want to get into 3D you will have to get into CNC routing. Size, speed, accuracy, rigidity will affect the cost. There will also be a longer learning curve, because you have a more complicated graphic to start with and the machining forces at work (speed, feed, clamping pressure, cutting pressure, etc.). It will cost from $2000.00 up, I don't think there is a top limit to how much you can spend.
You probably have most of the sofware you need already.

Joseph

Aaron Koehl
01-17-2007, 1:34 PM
It might be worthwhile to mention that there's an entire extra skillset involved in manufacturing objects in 3D. It sounds like you have all the graphics experience you need-- the next hurdle is toolpathing.

Material considerations, bit speeds, bit sizes and shapes, tool changes, hold downs, etc. Toolpathing time is considerable--above and beyond the graphic itself--and is often more time consuming than creating the model.

The laser can be a little more forgiving, but also more limiting for 3D.

If you want to take a look at it from the software perspective, google for Artcam Pro and take a look at some of the forums discussing it.

Michael Kowalczyk
01-17-2007, 2:18 PM
Richard,
I emailed you about us and as I mentioned we also use ArtcamPro 9.124 for our 3D and 4D work. Let me know if we can help. We're just down the road a bit, Houston, but most UPS ground and most LTL shipments to the Dallas area are still overnight.

(I see I must update some of the info in my sig line)

Thanks,

Richard Graniczny
01-17-2007, 4:27 PM
Richard,
I emailed you about us and as I mentioned we also use ArtcamPro 9.124 for our 3D and 4D work. Let me know if we can help. We're just down the road a bit, Houston, but most UPS ground and most LTL shipments to the Dallas area are still overnight.

(I see I must update some of the info in my sig line)

Thanks,

I have replied to your email. Thanks for the input. Afreebie is waiting for you.

Richard Graniczny
01-17-2007, 4:32 PM
Hi Richard,
If I understand correctly,I think you are exactly right, that it means a lot to have a piece that you can actually pick up, look at, and decide if it's what you want.
If it's enough to stick with projects that can be drawn in 2D then you can't beat a laser. They are fast and relatively easy to operate, not much more than using a printer. You can work with wood, plastics, fabric, cork, etc., but you will be limited in the thickness of the material. It will cost about $15,000.00 to get started.
If you want to get into 3D you will have to get into CNC routing. Size, speed, accuracy, rigidity will affect the cost. There will also be a longer learning curve, because you have a more complicated graphic to start with and the machining forces at work (speed, feed, clamping pressure, cutting pressure, etc.). It will cost from $2000.00 up, I don't think there is a top limit to how much you can spend.
You probably have most of the sofware you need already.

Joseph

Do you have more info explaining " a more complicated graphic"? I am very familiar with 3d models I do not know of extras needed for cnc use. I would be very interested in any additional requiremants.

Joseph B. Chritz
01-17-2007, 5:22 PM
A 2d vector drawing is basically points, lines, arcs, etc. They can be changed quite successfully to many different formats (DXF,DWG, IGES,AI).
Programs to create tool path from these are affordable, from free to less than $500.00 dollars.

a 3D model can be a simple wire frame to some form of a solid. Wire frames are pretty easy to deal with, but I don't know of any way to get a tool path from a wire frame. Surfaces and solids come in several different flavors. It's not always easy to convert a model to a format your software can handle. Different programs accept different formats. The software to create a tool path from a 3D model is more expensive, $500.00 up. Also with 3D machining you will find the more expensive programs give you more options for roughing and finishing strategies.

Check out nurbs modeling at RHINO3D. They even have a free evaluation download. It's the full version, but it only saves 25 times.

http://www.rhino3d.com/nurbs.htm

Read more here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_modeling

Joseph

Michael Kowalczyk
01-18-2007, 1:33 PM
Thank you I will look it over and give you some feedback.

Thanks,

Richard Graniczny
01-18-2007, 6:04 PM
Thank you I will look it over and give you some feedback.

Thanks,


Thank you for your help. If you know of anyone else who wants to beta test some of the designs, let me know.

Michael Kowalczyk
01-18-2007, 8:39 PM
Richard,
I tested a few of them in CorelDraw X3 and imported as an EPS. When imported as an EPS it is very low DPI or jagged but when imported as EPS and you check "Editable" it is clean and clear.

When imported into Artcam Insignia 3.6f and ArtCampro 9.124 it comes in clean except the way the vectors overlap and may not be easily editable makes it unable to do a V carve from a direct import. I have posted a picture of what I am talking about and maybe you or someone else may know away to correct it.

Your license says
"You may not:
2. Reverse, engineer, decompile, translate, or disassemble any part of the Design."
In order to fix them, one must disassemble (Johnny 5 for those of you who remember that line:D) So I would say that the vector overlap should be fixed first.

I will test some others later but I thought it was important to get this out first.

Very interesting concept to make that many automated variations by scripting.

Do you have a way of cataloging them? Thumbnails doesn't work for these (EPS format) but when they are saved in CorelDraw X3 (CDR format) the design shows up in the folder.

Thanks,

Richard Graniczny
01-18-2007, 9:15 PM
Richard,
I tested a few of them in CorelDraw X3 and imported as an EPS. When imported as an EPS it is very low DPI or jagged but when imported as EPS and you check "Editable" it is clean and clear.

When imported into Artcam Insignia 3.6f and ArtCampro 9.124 it comes in clean except the way the vectors overlap and may not be easily editable makes it unable to do a V carve from a direct import. I have posted a picture of what I am talking about and maybe you or someone else may know away to correct it.

Your license says
"You may not:
2. Reverse, engineer, decompile, translate, or disassemble any part of the Design."
In order to fix them, one must disassemble (Johnny 5 for those of you who remember that line:D) So I would say that the vector overlap should be fixed first.

I will test some others later but I thought it was important to get this out first.

Very interesting concept to make that many automated variations by scripting.

Do you have a way of cataloging them? Thumbnails doesn't work for these (EPS format) but when they are saved in CorelDraw X3 (CDR format) the design shows up in the folder.

Thanks,

I need the file name if possible. One of the probs with eps that there are thousands of variants. Does the overlap appear in Corel also? Does your software have a specific variant it needs? If so, I probably have the variant. What you are using is adobe 3.0 legacy variant saved from Illustrator cs2. I can send you a generic variant to try. Do you have the capability to open .ai files? As for the license part, that is there to help avoid commercial distribution. You can do what you wish. Instead of an overlap, it may be an inproper join. On a copy, try deleting the offensive nodes. If your design stays stable, prob solved. If it opens a cut, that is a different set of problems that are easily solved. As I mentioned, the files are not at final proof stage. Hope this helps.

Michael Kowalczyk
01-18-2007, 10:16 PM
The file is OT44466.

Yes I can open AI 10 files (I do not use it that much so I have not upgraded).

and DXF, DWG, PIC, DGK, and WMF for 2d Vector files in ArtcamPro and Insignia

for 3D and 4D work I can import STL, DMT, DXF, 3DP, 3DA for ArtcamPro

I can also open (solidworks files) .sldprt, (Rhino) 3DM, SAT, STP, STEP, IGS, IGES, and Parasolids X_T_X_B.

Here is a jpg of what the same file looks like in CorelDrawX3. I filled it white and then outlined it in black. Then ungrouped all and then selected one half and moved it a bit and this is what I got. It appears to be a symmetrical fold/mirror that did not weld at the fold for lack of better terminology. What do you think?

Thanks,

Richard Graniczny
01-18-2007, 11:09 PM
The file is OT44466.

Yes I can open AI 10 files (I do not use it that much so I have not upgraded).

and DXF, DWG, PIC, DGK, and WMF for 2d Vector files in ArtcamPro and Insignia

for 3D and 4D work I can import STL, DMT, DXF, 3DP, 3DA for ArtcamPro

I can also open (solidworks files) .sldprt, (Rhino) 3DM, SAT, STP, STEP, IGS, IGES, and Parasolids X_T_X_B.

Here is a jpg of what the same file looks like in CorelDrawX3. I filled it white and then outlined it in black. Then ungrouped all and then selected one half and moved it a bit and this is what I got. It appears to be a symmetrical fold/mirror that did not weld at the fold for lack of better terminology. What do you think?

Thanks,
Very astute observation on the file. I have sent you a replacement via email. When I checked it, it had been grouped and join was not done. Those scripts I was telling you about can easily run into hundreds of cuts and sometimes a join gets missed...especially if you write the script at 2 in the morning after a long day. They only perform as written...not necessarily as needed...lol