Beginner tools?

[Lisa Gilbert]

I am totally new at this, and could use some advice about tools. My husband got me a set of Benjamins' Best HSS tools, which seem to have a good variety. He also got me a book and videos by Richard Raffan. In my reading, watching, and lurking, I have gained the impression that the gouge is easiest to work with and the skew is hard to work with. So far (my extensive experience includes a rolling pin, a pen, and a wood stove handle), I have had more consistent success with the skew. The shallow gouge I have is 7/8". Is it the wrong size? I have very limited success using it and always go back to the skew -- with which I can also make a pretty good mess, but it just seems to cooperate with me better. I also have a couple gouges that are deeper (made from a round bar), but I think those would be bowl gouges. Is that correct? So far, all my turning has been with the grain, spindle-type turning. Thanks in advance for any help.

[James Carmichael]

I'll be interested to see the replies, Lisa. You're ahead of me, as I haven't purchased my tools yet, though I'm looking at the Benjamin's Best.

I've been reading Richard Raffan also, and get the impression the skew is considered the more difficult to master, but also gives the best finish.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Lisa.......The 7/8" shallow gouge is a roughing gouge. It's most often used in spindle work to take square wood to a cylinder. The gouges out of round bar steel are most likely bowl gouges used for cross grain work....ie turning bowls.

You really use a gouge very similarly as you use the skew in that you want to ride the bevel......Place the tool on the tool rest.....lower it until the "heel" of the bevel is making contact......then while maintaining contact with the tool rest raise the handle until you are riding the bevel and cutting. You turn or rotate the gouge with your back hand in the direction that you are trying to cut. You always want to cut down grain...not up grain....up hilll.....if that makes sense.

Are you gouges sharp?

[Curt Fuller]

I certainly don't mean to underestimate your talent, but if you're having your best luck as a beginner using the skew I'm guessing your using it as a scraper. If you're holding it with the flat side to the tool rest you're scraping with it. But then again you just might be a natural with it and picked it up right off the bat. Most turners (myself included) struggle with the skew as a cutting or peeling tool. There's nothing wrong with using a skew as a scraper and with light pressure it makes some pretty clean cuts. But if you hold it 'skewed' to the wood, at an angle, and with the bevel riding the wood, it becomes a pretty tricky tool to get used to.

And like Ken said, the big wide gouge is a roughing gouge. It can be used pretty effectively on spindle work even as a spindle gouge but a smaller 3/8" or 1/2" gouge will work better.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Lisa.....Curt brought up a good point that didn't even cross my mind. I'm a relatively new turner too. It didn't dawn on me that you might be using the skew as a scraper....though I often use it as such to flatten an area.

I also have had really good luck using a skew cutting or peeling. On several occasions I've spent an entire afternoon wasting wood learning to use my skew and it is the ONLY tool I use when turing pens. Most of my boxes and bottle stoppers are turned using only my skew. I have the Wolverine sharpening jig system and I keep my skew extremely sharp and it's angle never changes. I've even gotten to the point where I can turn large radius coves with my skew. It is certainly one of my favorite tools. I often do the "roughing" portion of spindle work using the skew it's faster and when a surface is "cut or peeled" using the skew....you most often don't have to sand as the surface looks slick and smooth.

[Lisa Gilbert]

Well, I think I'm using the skew as a skew. I cut with it at an angle and get lovely curly shavings. We also got the wolverine jig for sharpening, and I have to confess that turning is way more fun with sharp tools. I put the slight curve on the skew like Raffan does, so maybe that's why I have more luck with it. It just seems to do what I want, and the gouge doesn't, but if it's a roughing gouge, that might explain it. Maybe we need to invest in one of the narrower shallow gouges. I was suprised one didn't come in the set if it's so commonly used. I just don't want to go to my oh-so-accomodating-up-to-this-point husband and say, "Honey, I just need one more little tool." But I gues he's gotten used to it by now. :D

Thanks so much for your advice.

[John Hart]

I'm one of those weird people that can't handle a gouge worth a dang. I use the skew a lot. My most recent piece, a beech pot sort of thing, was done almost exclusively with the skew. The only time I deviate from that is on tight inside corners. I know how to use a gouge, but I just don't enjoy it. The skew creates such a beautiful surface and I get a kick out of doing a whole surface without leaving a toolmark....sort of a personal challenge.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Yup Lisa...if you're getting curlies....I'd say you're using it correctly....

[Scott Donley]

Hi Lisa, at 7/8 and shallow, I'm guessing it is a spindle gouge and not a roughing gouge, I could be wrong (would not be the first time) and not doing much spindle work I am not going to say how it is supposed to work, for me, it seems to be a lot like a skew that has a rounded profile :o I do like the skew for finish work though ;) A pic would be nice to make sure as your shallow and my shallow could be different things :D

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Lisa

First off, most of the tools you have are decent tools. The big question is, what are you turning with them? If you are trying to turn bowls, it is no surprise you are having trouble. If spindles, it is still no surprise, but at least you are going in the right direction! :D Just about any tool can be made to do anything on the lathe. That does not make it a good idea all the time. For example, it is not a good idea to use a roughing gouge on a bowl. For that matter, until you get some real good experience behind you, I would not even want to see you use a spindle gouge on a bowl. It can be done, but it takes practice and knowing how the gouge will work. I am sure someone (someone in particular) will be along to disagree with that statement, but he does that as a matter of course.

As a beginner, videos and books will help you, but nothing will get you going faster than spending some time with someone who knows how these things work. A class at a store like Woodcraft, or a session or two with a turner from a chapter of the American Association of Woodturners will help you immensely. Good luck with it, and keep on posting those questions.

Bill

[Gordon Seto]

Lisa,

Bill is a gouge police, a gouge safety police.

My thinking is all sharp edges would remove wood at the lathe. Under certain conditions, some are more effective and safer. For beginners, we need extra safety margin in choosing the safer shape tools.
Sometimes we forget to move the toolrest closer, tighten the banjo after moving or the corner of the gouge caught in the wrong direction. Those are part of the learning experience every beginner goes through. Hopefully we just have a catch, ruin the piece and no bodily harm suffered during the learning process.
Some experts push the boundary into an art form.

This picture is the underside of the volcano shape bowl by Stuart Batty in 2003. His demonstration started with sharp tools, tool leverage and wood grain direction etc. But he violated the rules that he preaches in making this piece.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/stuart_batty_volcano_bowl.jpg
In 2004 Stuart pushed that limit even further. That shape evolved to off-center.

http://www.channelislandswoodturners.org/SBattyDEMO.htm

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/StuartBattyWorks.jpg

I am very fortunate to belong to 2 local AAW Chapters. The library material, live demos, hands on mentoring, seeing other members' works on the show and tell table and attending symposiums open my eyes. My observation is there are very few absolutes in woodturning. If we have the illusion that our way is the only way, the best way, then may be we should get out of our cocoon and explore more.

But for beginners, it would be safer to follow the guide line of established safe practice. Don't rush to show off.

One of our clubs has a good collection of turning videos. I would highly recommend Bill Grumbine's Turned Bowl Made Easy as a good tool. It is a fundamental course for safe bowl turning 101. Various methods are demonstrated in this DVD; and most importantly he explained them well in a humorous way.

I don't know him personally, other than reading his posts in various forums like this. But I am the proud owner his DVD and looking forward to see his demo, or take a lesson from him.

Gordon

[Gary DeWitt]

And just to make it easier to find one of those AAW chapters and a whole bunch of people willing to help you out:
http://woodturner.org/community/chapters/
Welcome aboard.

[Lisa Gilbert]

Thanks, all! I did take a pen class at Woodcraft with my teenage son, and we both got hooked. I know there is a turner's group that meets there once a month, but I couldn't make it to the last one. My husband works late many nights and we have 4 little people at home, so it will be challenging to make it to meetings. To be honest, it's hard enough to find time to get out to the shop -- these unreasonable people around here still expect to find food on the table and clean clothes in their closets! But I'll just have to make a point to get down there and take my boys.

[George Tokarev]

The shallow gouge I have is 7/8". Is it the wrong size? I have very limited success using it and always go back to the skew -- with which I can also make a pretty good mess, but it just seems to cooperate with me better. I also have a couple gouges that are deeper (made from a round bar), but I think those would be bowl gouges. Is that correct? So far, all my turning has been with the grain, spindle-type turning. Thanks in advance for any help.

Well, A look at the Benjamin's best gouges on PSI's site shows a forged-type 1" gouge of unknown depth. Presume this is the one you refer to. The smaller "spindle" gouges are cylindrical. For starters, why not take a look at http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/15460 and download the book. Lots of good stuff to look at, and please remember to keep your tie firmly tucked away in your waistcoat as you turn!

Large-radius gouges are really skews with double relief angles. They give you a lot of bevel-steadying capability even while taking a thin shaving. Some folks grind their skews into a broad radius to gain a bit of relief from catching, but these type gouges come naturally relieved, and are really difficult to get a catch as long as you use them at or above centerline. You enter at a high angle of nearly 90 degrees, then roll the top of the gouge away from the direction of cut as you begin to move along, keeping the heel of the gouge forward, and severing the shaving with that portion of the edge which is almost vertical. Very friendly style, because the bevel is ground at the same angle all the way across, so the gouge can't roll like a fingernailed gouge can sometimes do. My favorites for finishing cuts everywhere, because they are so easily controlled, and by skewing the trailing edge, you can get a broad reference on where you've been to minimize ridging.

Hoping you may not be referring to the gouge on the PSI site, but one like these, where you see the broad face possible to reference the gouge against in the image it's made in the wood.

[Lisa Gilbert]

George, thanks for that reference -- I will look at it as soon as I can.

Here is the set of tools I have:
http://www.pennstateind.com/store/lcsixw.html
Apparently the gouge I've been using is a 7/8" roughing gouge, would the 1/2" spindle gouge be a better tool for general use (pens, etc.)? I thought it looked like a bowl gouge, but apparently I was mistaken.

As long as I'm asking about tools, there is a fingernail grind on the spindle gouge and bowl gouge. We have the wolverine jig, but I'm not sure how to get that particular grind. I'm sure there are many folks here who can enlighten me.

[George Tokarev]

Wrong guy to ask about jigs. I use the tool as its own jig. Stay away from the steeper grind on the wings of your gouge as you cut and you should be able to do well with it. The rougher can be used as the gouge I showed, except that it pokes poorly, being ground straight across. If you swing it into the cut rather than press it in, you should get good control. The roll it back a bit away from the direction of cut as you see in the picture once you have a place to steady your bevel. With a U shaped rougher, it's possible to use it to peel a no-sand surface by using it almost as a straight chisel say youre going right to left, you'd roll so the edge was going like this / as you went along. Just remember not to go too deep, but follow the bevel angle, If you go to deep, you can get under the shaving and hook yourself. Not a tragedy if you keep the toolrest up tight to the work, since it can't jam between, but the work will squirm and may unseat. Here's some shots going left to right so the photographer didn't get my better side. Whittle down in stages, as Dave Houk says on TV, so you don't splinter.

[John Hart]

George has a nice video short on this as well. I learned a thing or two....or three.:D

[Bob Hallowell]

Lisa, I am a fairly new turner as well. But have made and sold quite a few pens. I think it is all personal preference what tool you use on spindle work. I use the harbor freight 3/4 roughing gouge on 1/2 the pens I turn with maybe a scraper or 1/4 spindle gouge tossed in. Some I rough with the 3/4 and use scrapers and othes I do most work with the skew.

So what I am trying to say is it's what you fell comfortable with. I went to another turners house on this forum and told him how I turned the majority of my beads was with a 1/8 parting tool and he thought I was mad till he tried it. So play and learn. as they always say it's not the arrows it's the indian.


Bob

[Gordon Seto]

Lisa,

Any tool is only as strong as its weakest link. The 7/8" gouge in your set is a roughing gouge. The flute is very strong. When you are turning off-balance side grain bowl blanks, you are unable to move the toolrest close to your work. A careless end grain catch would snap your tool at the tang. With a round bowl gouge, if the catch force is large enough, your gouge may twist and bend. But most likely because of the smaller than 7/8" size bowl gouge, your gouge would vibrate and chatter when your tool hangs out from the tool rest too much.

Each year several hundreds of roughing gouges were retruned to Craft Supply USA because of snapped tangs. I believe the broken tang figures were much higher. That is why in recent catalogs, there are warning "Not for use on bowls". And AAW was also pushing for the name change to Spindle Roughing Gouge, to bring up the awareness.

You have 4 little people to take care, you can't afford not to take the safer approach on your new hobby. When the tang snaps, it becomes an energerized projectile. We always have to put the safety of our family members in mind first. I don't see the need to take extra risk for using a goughing gouge on a side grain bowl. I have seen, feel and touch the smooth finish off side grind and traditional grind bowl gouges. I hope with practice, you and I can reach that goal some day.

Gordon