West systems -v- titebond

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'm making a little box. This time I am taking pix but don't have 'em developed.

Any hoo I have used (on this box) both titebond and West Systems #105 Epoxy and their hardner #209 an extra slow hardner.

I needed to make two thin little rings from maple about 1/4" thick the diameter to cpmpose two portions of this little sphericle box.
To make those rings I took some 3/8" thick maple strips about 2" wide jointed the edges and glued em. Then I used the lathe to cut out the ring shape.

The issue:
I laminated 4 of these maple strips together using the West Systems epoxy. clamped 'em together and let it set all afternoon and overnight.

The next day I set about to get this glue up true and flat. Passing this glue up across my jointer One of the maple strips simply broke away.

I just know that this would not have happened had I been using Titebond. It was a fine joint. It sat the needed time. There was plenty of glue.

Any one else have similar issues with West epoxy?

[Mike Cutler]

Cliff.
A few things come to mind.

Temp in shop? >70 deg F for 24 hours?
Excessive clamping pressure?
Age of products?

I've never used West Epoxies. I have used System Three. I also had a glue up fail last week. I used the high temp hardner instead of the low temp hardner on accident. It never got above 55 that nite. That was a waste of time.

[Quinn McCarthy]

Cliff

I have never seen West Systems do anything like this. I thought WS was fool proof. I made a bend lamination for a sailboat tiller handle and it worked like a charm. Did you clean the surfaces of the wood with DNA? I always clean all the pieces before I apply the epoxy. Titebond is also an awsome glue. I would think you would be fine with either one. WS has great tech support maybe you could give them a call. One thing I just thought of. Did you use the epoxy straight or did you add some hardener? I usually use straight epoxy to coat the 2 pieces of wood. Then I thicken it a bit for the epoxy that will be acting as a glue.

I hope this helps.

Quinn

[John Schreiber]

I've used West System on sailboat parts that my life have depended on and not had problems like that. I've also had glue-ups not work because of temperature or contamination problems, but I was aware of those failures right away.

I'd check for problems, but I wouldn't blame West System in general.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I was wondering if temp or clamping pressure may have served as factors.

I'm not a poly chem but what I know about Epoxies is that if you cure 'em at a temp lower than optimum the catalyzation occurs just way slower. Also that if you do it at temperatures that exceed the specs the catalyzation still occurs but will be flawed.

So what I have come to understand as a general proposition is that low temps (withnin reason) are OK if you have patience and higher temps can be problematic.
Whether my deductions are within shouting distance of actual facts is a tad outside my current knowledge.

I did clamp 'em fairly hard. I have never had overclamping problems in the past but then could Epoxy be more sensitive to starvation than other glues?? I dunno.

Just tonight I was in the shop sanding this little gem and just for the hell of it, picked up the slab that I have left over from the expoxy glue up.

- - - - - It broke along the glue line. - - - - -

It didn't break too easily but break it did and the glue failed taking not one tiny wood fiber with it.

So I am left with:
1.) operator error of improper lower than spec' temp'.

2.) operator error of too much clamp pressure.

2.) could the glue have been too old??

[Cody Colston]

I'm betting too much clamping pressure. Epoxy is not like PVA in that regard and even if you have a small gap, the epoxy itself has strength when cured.

[Mark Singer]

I have had great luck with west systems and have used it for years

[Bruce Haugen]

I'm betting excessive clamping pressure. It is easy to starve joints using epoxy. You want the parts close, but not smashed together.

Bruce

[Mike Cutler]

Cliff.

On both the West Systems,and System Three websites,both unfortunately state that exceeding the lower temp will affect the ability of the epoxy to cure and bond properly, leading to joint failure. They also state that the epoxy will harden, but that the adhesive properties will be inhibited. Both also have specific cold temperature applications.
Apparently the exothermic reaction/curing process can be inhibited if the temp is too low.
I feel your pain bro'

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

OK so it's not just what one doesn't know that will rise up and snag a chunk off one's backside but it's also what one knows that just ain't so.
Ouch.

Next time I'll go light on gluing pressure and watch the temps. Arrogant sod that I am I don't have a heated shop. I warm it by parasatising from the cellar with fans.


On the bright side all the really critical epoxy gluing was done indoors in a heated environment - and clamping wasn't an option as it is too complex with to many angles - which was why I chose epoxy.

That leaves only those two rings with a crappy glue job.
And those epoxied ring joints won't ever see any stress as they are both laminated on either side with wood parts and for that I used titebond.

[Jim Dailey]

Hi Cliff,
I go thru gals & gals of West Systems every year as I work on boats. I read your initial post & was about 99% sure of the reason based on my past experience, but didn't want to give the wrong info. And it's good for me to recheck info from time-to-time rather than trust my memory or "this is the way I always do this...."

The hardener not only effects the drying time or pot life but the temperature you can use them. 205 hardener is good down to 40 degrees, 206 hardener is good down to 60 degrees, and 209 hardener also known as "tropical" hardener is good down to 70 degrees. If you use a hardener below the stated temperature range besides firing off more slowly, although it may react with the resin it probably will not adhere.

Thanks for your post as it made me do some research, jim

[Brian Elfert]

My firends and I build large high power rockets. We use lots of epoxy from West Systems and others.

We're finding on some joints that epoxy is not the answer. On very tight fitting joints that slip together most of the epoxy tends to get scraped out while putting things together and joint is weak. We tried PVA glue and it works much better for these joints.

Brian Elfert

[Mike Cutler]

My firends and I build large high power rockets. Brian Elfert

We gotta see some of those rockets.:D :D :D Boyz and toyz, know what I mean.