18" Bandsaw--new purchase--Rikon vs. Bridgewood/Minimax etc.

[Jameel Abraham]

I just got rid of a 14" (typical old design) bandsaw. Just couldn't take it anymore. I upgraded my contractor saw about 3 years ago to a Delta Unisaw (10" 3hp), and would like to upgrade my bandsaw to equivalent quality. I'll never have to upgrade the unisaw, and it will last my lifetime plus. It fits my needs perfectly.

I was this close (you know, holding my fingers apart...) to getting the Rikon 14", since it looked way better than my Grizzly, plus the added resaw capacity, bigger motor, extra features etc. Then I spent several hours doing research here and elsewhere on this purchase. I quickly realized that the 14" would not make the cut, so to speak, in the long run. I need a saw with power and capacity to spare. And it looks like an 18" saw will be a great choice.

I'm using Roland Johnson's article in FWW (May/June 2004) as a sort of starting place. Based on his article, he really liked the Rikon and the Bridgewood. The only real difference he stated between the two were the fact that the Bridgewood had excellent resawing, vs. the Rikon he only rated "good". On the other factors the Rikon matched or surpassed the Bridgewood. I'm particularly interested in the fact that the Rikon rated very good for blade changing, but the Bridgewood only rated fair. This will be my only bandsaw, so I'll need to switch between resawing and curve cutting.

Given that the Bridgewood is twice the price, do you think it's worth it for the extra resawing ability? I'm having a hard time justifying another $900 for a bit quicker resawing. Especially since the Rikon gave good resawing results, just not "fantastic" like the Bridgewood. The Bridgewood is also 300 lbs. more than the Rikon. I'm really leaning towards the Bridgewood, but if I buy the Rikon, I'll have enough money left over for another large tool.

I'm a semi-professional woodworker, and only make high-end items, so the tools don't get a serious workout ever. Not like I'm going to be resawing everyday, but when I do, I want it to be excellent.

Since I'm kinda new here, I thought I'd post a pic of one of my projects just to give an idea of where I stand. I've been working wood since high school (15 years).

[Doug Shepard]

First - Welcome to the Creek.
Second - That's some seriously nice looking work.
Third - based on that pic I would expect the ability to slice thin wood for instruments is going to be high on your priority list. I'd go with the Bridgewood (or MM16). Blade tension seems to be one of the more important factors for being able to resaw well. The heavier weight of the better saws mean a beefier frame that's able to tension the blade better. Just my 2¢

[Brian Hale]

Welcome to the Creek Jameel !!

I've got the MM16 and it's a fine saw. My first choice was the Bridgewood PBS 540 but i got a great price on the MM display model from the Woodworking Show last year and took it home with me even though i wasn't really prepared for the purchase.

The Bridgewood is a top notch saw! The unique frame design makes it very stiff, so much so that FWW at one point rated it as the most rigid saw on the market. (can't remember which issue that was, perhaps the one your referring to?) IMHO, It also has a better fence design ( I Hate the MM fence). Wilke also has excellent customer service. If you call them, ask for Curt and he'll give you all the details on who makes which brand of saw and the strengths of each.

I like my MM but I'd trade it for a Bridgewood in a heartbeat.

Brian :)

[Pete Brown]

I have a mm16 that I love. A MM20 would be even nicer, but the MM16 is a warhorse

Pete

[Ken Fitzgerald]

James....I hope to be buying a b/s later this year. Recently....last week IIRC....MM donated a new b/s to fellow Creeker Steve Clardy whose professional shop was destroyed in a winter storm last month......You can bet that'll have an effect on my decision! Steve makes a living with his shop.

[rodney mitchell]

I too have the MM16 and it is a great saw. Haven't had a chance to put it through all of its paces yet, but I am very happy so far.

Rodney

[Gary Herrmann]

I was all over the place when I was trying to decide on a BS. I decided I wanted to buy my last bandsaw. It was an MM16. I resawed some yellowheart this weekend and got perfect box bottoms.

[Mike Weaver]

I decided a while ago it would be the MM16.....

And it's on the way [stealth gloat-to-be]. :D

-Mike

[Jameel Abraham]

Thanks for the responses. Looks like everyone pretty much loves the MM16. That's a serious amount of money for me though. I don't know how all you hobbyists can afford such huge purchaces, especially for just one machine. I must be doing something wrong....

Anyways, do any of you think that the extra $600-$1300 or so really reflects the performance difference between the Rikon and the big European machines? Give me some hard facts here. If I spend $1100 on the Rikon, or $2400 on the MM, that is a huge difference. Aside from the obvious (hp, resaw capacity) is there really $1300 difference between these two machines?

Also, I can't imaging ever needing to resaw 16". I mean, I rarely even see a 16" wide board. What are these huge resaw capacity saws being used for? Even the Hitachi resaw bandsaw (the 3" wide blade model) only resaws 12" or so. Anyone with a MM16 ever use the 16" resaw? What for? I mean if you were making up some veneer for a bookmatched panel, why on earth would you need a 32" wide panel. That's just huge.

I'm ready to buy (especially since I just sold my Grizzly 14", and I have NO bandsaw at present, and am seriously missing it!). I really appreciate your help. This forum seems to be made up of some really great people.

[Brian Hale]

I've never used the 16" capacity on my MM, usually no more than 8"-10". Some will say it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. That's a decision only you can make.

The higher priced machines should give you a longer life due to beefier components and a higher HP motor. Hard facts? That's a tuff one because the price reflects capacity, power and longevity, all things that don't relate to a "spec Sheet" per say.

Brian :)

[John Bailey]

Jameel,

My advice would be to go with the Bridgewood. Right now they're selling the PBS 440 for $1,799, which is $400 less than they have been selling it. It's a quality machine in the same league as the MM saws. That being said, there've been a lot of good reports about the Rikon and I'm sure that would do the job.

By the way, what is the instrument in the picture. I tried real hard last summer to buy a Bazouki in Greece, and it's very similar to what you have pictured. I would love to see some more photos of your work.

John

[Mike Weaver]

Thanks for the responses. Looks like everyone pretty much loves the MM16. That's a serious amount of money for me though. I don't know how all you hobbyists can afford such huge purchaces, especially for just one machine. I must be doing something wrong....
Jameel,
First, Welcome to the Forum! (I neglected that greeting when I poked my nose in this thread earlier - my apologies).

Just so you know, I'm a hobbyist, BUT this was the ONLY large purchase I've made in the past year and I won't be making any more for [at least] the next couple of years. As a matter of fact, I'll be posting a bunch of quality hand tools to the Classifieds forums as soon as I can get some photos taken to help defray the cost. I don't play golf, nor do I spend money "going out with the guys". I always brown bag and I drive a 1994 Saturn.

Anyway, I rambled too long on that, but the point is - I've made some choices and sacrifices to get my MM16 and don't regret them.


Anyways, do any of you think that the extra $600-$1300 or so really reflects the performance difference between the Rikon and the big European machines? Give me some hard facts here. If I spend $1100 on the Rikon, or $2400 on the MM, that is a huge difference. Aside from the obvious (hp, resaw capacity) is there really $1300 difference between these two machines?
I really wish you could put your hands on a current MM16 and the Rikon.
I'm pretty sure you'd easily see the differences.

The way I looked at it is the price difference bought power and longevity. I'll never need another bandsaw.

The table on the MM is also larger and lower than on the Rikon (both were a factor for me).



Also, I can't imaging ever needing to resaw 16". I mean, I rarely even see a 16" wide board. What are these huge resaw capacity saws being used for? Even the Hitachi resaw bandsaw (the 3" wide blade model) only resaws 12" or so. Anyone with a MM16 ever use the 16" resaw? What for? I mean if you were making up some veneer for a bookmatched panel, why on earth would you need a 32" wide panel. That's just huge.
I haven't used 16", but I plan to. Bowls - I'm fortuate enough to also have a lathe. BUT, I didn't buy the MM16 solely based upon resaw capacity. It's better to have the extra capacity and not need it than to wish you had it. I *do* have many old growth planks that are 12-13" wide and I didn't want to be right at capacity resawing them.

That's another one of the factors that swayed me to the MM, rather than the Bridgewood (which I think is a great saw too).


I'm ready to buy (especially since I just sold my Grizzly 14", and I have NO bandsaw at present, and am seriously missing it!). I really appreciate your help. This forum seems to be made up of some really great people.
I hope I've been some help and please let us know what you do. We love to spend dother people's money here. :eek:

Yes, this forum is the best I've experienced, by far, and again - welcome.

Regards,
-Mike

[Tom Jones III]

If you are looking at the Rikon, why not the Jet 18"? I bought the Jet 18" with 3 HP motor several months ago and I have been very happy with it. Actually, there is not much to tell it simply does what I want and I don't think about it very much - which is exactly what a good tool should be like.

[Roy Wall]

James,

I was also going to suggest the Griz 566?....a 21" model for $1850 I believe (which, incidently..was $1550 on Dec 31 - price increase!!)

But

If the bridgewood is basically the same price, that would ABSOLUTELY be a better deal, IMHO. Isn't the Bridgwood made in Italy like the MM - Laguna -etc...?? I am a happy MM owner - they have excellent service. Send a PM to me if you want to chat further.

What blade do you resaw with? The Lennox trimaster is a excellent resaw blade....but it's also around $175...and requires 25k lbs of tension.

Lastly - beautiful instrument!!! Simply stunning!!

If you can do work like this - a good band saw will be a treat for you!

[Travis Porter]

FWIW, today's Rikon is not the same one that was reviewed in FWW. I know a guy that bought the original model and loves it. I also know a guy that bought the later model and ended up returning it due to tensioning problems.

The MM's are nice machines (I have one), but they are a lot of money. Jet I believe revamped their 18 to an 18X adding a bigger motor and making it stiffer, so it would seem like a good choice. As others have said, frame stiffness matters a lot to get good tension.

Good luck

[Dan Stuewe]

At the Rikon's price point I would throw in either the Grizzly G0514X or the SteelCity Toolworks 18" model (those are the two I am looking at). The Rikon doesn't have some of the features that make the Grizzly (3 Hp) or Steel City (foot brake) more attractive to me. Another feature that is really attractive on the Grizzly is the rack and pinon tilt control for the table. I don't know if the Rikon has this or not. I also like the design of the Steel City band saw's tension fitting. It has two springs and is made of cast iron instead of formed sheet steel, it just seems more robust to me.

The Bridgewood is a great option, but I think the shipping across the country would be cost prohibative for me.

[John Bailey]

Just a thought Jameel,

In my research, it seemed to me that what some bandsaws do with heft, Agazzani does with precision. They're a little lighter, but by all accounts very precise. You might want to look into the Agazzani, your work seems to ooze with precision.

Just a thought.

John

[Jameel Abraham]

Thanks again everyone for your input. And you're right John, I do appreciate precision. That's why I'm really researching this purchase.

I took another hard look at the Rikon, and by way of the web, the Bridgewood. The Laguna, Minimax and Agazzani are all in the running, but the price on the Bridgewood is tough to beat, especially since it is a comparable saw. The Laguna and Minimax are several hundred more, and that's for a 16" saw (granted the resaw height is greater)

For the price (hundreds less), the Rikon seems nice, but the Bridgewood is a much heavier saw, and I think would last much much longer (probably my lifetime). I'm really leaning towards the Bridgewood.

So I have a couple questions for you all.

First is about guides. In the FWW article about the Bridgewood, ROland Johnson says the guides on the Bridgewood aren't his favorite, plus changing blades is not that quick or easy. Is this really a huge issue? Are these wheel guides usable, or am I going to have to swap these out with say, Carter guides?

Second, dust collection. I just took delivery today of a brand new Clear Vue Cyclone, and would like to use it to full effect on this bandsaw. I notice on machines like the Minimax and Rikon there is a small chamber just under the blade with a dust port, plus another dust port lower in the bottom cabinet. The Bridgewood and Laguna HD's do not have a dust port in this location at all. Is this an issue? Am I going to need to cut a hole here? Or will my Clear Vue take care of it with the one port? There is also what looks to be a sliding door just under the table in the front of the Bridgewood and Laguna HD saws. What is this for??

Thanks again everyone. This forum is a great resource.

[Jameel Abraham]

Oh yeah, one more question. I'm going to want to use this saw to cut curves too in thinner 1/2" to 1" stock, not just thick wood/resawing. So can this saw handle a 1/4" blade? What would you all use for this type of cutting? Sorry for the neophyte-ish questions, but I'm coming from a 14" "hobbyist" saw experience.

[Pete Brown]

Anyways, do any of you think that the extra $600-$1300 or so really reflects the performance difference between the Rikon and the big European machines? Give me some hard facts here. If I spend $1100 on the Rikon, or $2400 on the MM, that is a huge difference. Aside from the obvious (hp, resaw capacity) is there really $1300 difference between these two machines?

That's hard to say. My wife once asked me if I would really get $2000 worth of use out of my CNC-enabled Sherline Mill. As a hobby, there's no way to put that type of value on something. If you make money at it, that's a different story.

I got my MM16 at a show at the show discount. It is the 2004 model.

If I could do it over, I might have saved a bit longer and bought a MM20 or MM24. The only reason for that is they can handle a much wider carbide blade without any blade breakage issues. The wide blades will make resawing easier for you. As it is, though, I use a 3/4" or 1" (id' have to go out to see what it is, it has been a while since I bought it) Lenox blade and that is pretty good, so I'm not disappointed. I also used 5/8" woodslicers and got great results until they dulled.

If you get a cheaper bandsaw, try for a larger wheel (18" or 20") so you can reap some benefit.

I could have gone with a cheaper bandsaw, but I wanted a good piece of hardware. Almost every cheap powertool I've bought has either died or been retired. I get very little time to do woodworking, and when I do, I want stuff to work. When it doesn't, it ruins my enjoyment of the hobby.

You could also call MM and inquire about used MM16 saws. Folks trade up from time to time and try to get rid of their old versions.

Also note that MiniMax has a lower end 16" bandsaw called the E16 (http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage_norm&product_id=77&category_id=6&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26). I haven't tried that out, but you may want to ask around about it as it is $1600 or less.


Also, I can't imaging ever needing to resaw 16". I mean, I rarely even see a 16" wide board. What are these huge resaw capacity saws being used for? Even the Hitachi resaw bandsaw (the 3" wide blade model) only resaws 12" or so. Anyone with a MM16 ever use the 16" resaw? What for? I mean if you were making up some veneer for a bookmatched panel, why on earth would you need a 32" wide panel. That's just huge.


I have an older MM-16 which has a resaw height of around 13". A resaw height that is higher than your planer is wide likely isn't all that useful all the time. However, the same argument can be made about jointers and most of us own 6 or 8" jointers even though we have 12" and 13" wide planers.

That all being said, the only reason I cut my cabinet wood to the width it was before resawing was because my MM would only do 13". If it would have done 18-20", then I would have left it that wide so I would have had better options when cutting to width and bookmatching.

Also keep in mind that the minimax (and similar saws) will actually resaw something like maple or oak at that thickness. Ask for a demo of the machine you want to buy and bring in a max-capacity piece of hardwood to see if the machine will resaw it without stalling or seriously slowing down. Sometimes numbers are just numbers.

In my opinion, you shouldn't buy more machine than you can afford, as you will have too-high expectations and may end up bitter. At the same time, don't buy today just to buy today. If you were to save up for another 6 months or something and could get a quality machine (assuming you get demos of the other machines and they don't meet your expectations) then wait and save up.

If you do try the other machines and they work well for you and have decent lifetime ratings, then go for it :)

Pete

[Roy Wall]

Jameel,

Here is link to the MM16:
http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage_norm&product_id=18&category_id=6&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26

It's just a link to see more of the internals, etc...

This saw and the mm20 have the one 100mm dust port. It is about 1/2 way down on the base. Click on all 8 photos from the link and you can see lots of details.

The MM has a "sliding door" below the table to allow for table tilting...maybe that's the same on the Laguna, etc... but I am not familiar with those machines. I wish the the DC was higher up next to the lower guides under the table...but it can't do to the table tilt.

I have a MM20 and use a 2hp gorilla for DC. It does a reasonable job...if the port was up just under the table ...it would be better. I guess I could wire it up closer when the table is laying flat (with is most of the time). My guess is the Bridgewood is similar.

The key to good DC is keep a 6" run right to the machine...then choke it down to the port it has.

I agree the Bridgewood should be your front runner...at a $1700 max price point..

[Pete Brown]

Second, dust collection. I just took delivery today of a brand new Clear Vue Cyclone, and would like to use it to full effect on this bandsaw. I notice on machines like the Minimax and Rikon there is a small chamber just under the blade with a dust port, plus another dust port lower in the bottom cabinet. The Bridgewood and Laguna HD's do not have a dust port in this location at all. Is this an issue? Am I going to need to cut a hole here? Or will my Clear Vue take care of it with the one port? There is also what looks to be a sliding door just under the table in the front of the Bridgewood and Laguna HD saws. What is this for?

Dust collection on bandsaws just plain stinks. My MM16 has the one dust port in the front (none at the bottom corner). Unless they recently changed, all the MM16s are like that. The problem is that there is no seal under the table. In addition, during resawing, most of the dust gets on the table or in the kerf, and not into the chamber with the collector. I considered creating a rubber boot or a wooden box to make it all more air tight, but that would make changing blades a real pain.

One complaint about my MM16: the mobility kit isn't great. Folks on the MiniMax Yahoo Group have found Zambus casters to be a great alternative. The same may work for whatever saw you get.

Oh, also check out the MiniMax S45N (http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage_norm&product_id=24&category_id=6&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26), that's an 18" bandsaw.

Pete

[Dan Invan]

I also have an MM-16 which will resaw about 13". I've had it for several years now and it serves me well, I am a hobbiest. It seems to 'radiate' fine dust from its various seams and openings despite being connected to a dust collection system.

I have never resawn any boards 13" thick, but have resawn a number of logs, most much longer than the one in the photo, without any problems. It is necessary to prevent the logs from 'tipping' while being sawn, and it also helps tremendously if you can account for the blade drift on these thick cuts.

On the other hand, my planer width is also 13", so it is a perfect match to the bandsaw. My jointer is only 6", so I have a jig I use in the planer to flatten one side of any rough boards that are between 6" and 13".

[Jameel Abraham]

Thanks again Roy, Pete and Dan. It's a tough decision buying sight unseen, but you guys are making it easier. If I was to narrow it down between the Bridgewood 18" (440) and the MM16, and the prices were exactly the same, I'm still leaning toward the bridgewood. I think at this point I'd rather have throat than the resaw, but that might change. Ugh. This is the toughest tool purchase I've ever made! Do you think the MM is more money just because of the name? Arent these saws made by the same Italian factory?

[Steven Wilson]

I believe Bridgewood is made by ACM and the MM16 is made by Centauro - not the same Italian company.

["Gary Brewer"]

Hi Jameel: I just bought a Bridgewood PBS 540. A bigger brother of the 440. I went down to York Pa and looked at them. I also saw in person two minimax's , mm16 and mm20. The 440 is a very nice machine. I was going to get the mm16, it is an excellent machine. The 440 and 540 both have bigger wheels, american made motors and heavier. I had read a few articles about the dynamics of wheel sizes in band saws and wanted to see if I could get bigger than 16". For $170 more than the mm16 I got the 540 ( with the 22" wheels ). I couldn't pass it up. This difference included the shipping prices to Rochester, New York. Minimax shipping was more expensive because it would have to come from Texas. I also had (actually still have ) a 14 inch bandsaw . I can't believe how much better it is on a large format machine. The much smoother cuts with still the cheapo blades still amazes me along with many other things. It has been better than I expected. The reason I responded to you is about your question of the european guides on the Bridgewood. I also saw the article in FWW and was concerned about not being happy with them. While I was in my pondering phase I saw some videos by lonnie Bird and another famous woodworker on the FWW website and they both had the european guides. I figured if it was ok for them then I was going to risk it. I have found european guides to not to be a problem. I was able to easily adjust them and have changed the blades about 4 times. I expected to be unhappy with them so I was pleasantly surprised. No big deal. I don't see my self changing them. I just wanted to let you know that I had the same concerns. For what it's worth. Just my 2 Cents.
Gary Brewer

[Brian Hale]

Hey Gary, Is that a Baldor motor on the 22"?

Jameel, i believe a bigger throat is going to be more useful than the 4" of resaw on the MM 16.

Brian :)

[Ron Blaise]

And I like it. It resaws well, sturdy and very easy to setup and use. The only thing I changed was to modify the fence by swapping to a much more robust extrusion. I could have spent much more, coulda gone green, or a number of other choices but this saw more than fits my needs. I only work in hardwood and oak cuts just as easy as popular. I still think it's a very good saw for the money and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. And, who gives a big rat's butt what people buy, as long as it meets their needs? :rolleyes:

[Jeffrey Iwasaki]

Stay away from the NEW Rikon 18", it has serious engineering flaws on the blade tensioner to the point that it's dangerous (you can find numerous complaints on the web). If you can find the old kind, it's a much better design (one way to distinguish the old vs. the new is the tension lever, the old one is at the top of the upper wheel and the new one is towards the botton). That being said, when you resaw on a heavier machine, namely the MM, you will know the difference right away. I got a chance to use the MM at a wood show, boy is it solid. Don't get me wrong, the Rikon is a good saw, but the MM is a PRECISION built machine. Welding, finish, frame deflection, frame squareness, guage steel, fit and overall care and workmanship is worth the extra $1300. Sorry, don't know much about the Bridgewood.

[lou sansone]

welcome to the creek... sorry I am late to the party

great work on the instruments .

on the band saw question, I have seen the mm in person and they are very nice. I have seen the rikon and its ok for the $. Have not seen the grizz, but they are really making some great stuff. Owned 3 band saws so far. A real 22" old cast iron guy that had spoke wheels and was a left handed band saw. A ACM 24" ( Laguna or bridgewood ) that was real nice and now a 36" direct drive MOAK, that is really really really nice :) . There is a difference in each saw. Anyway, I think the ACM or the MM would be great long term, never look back and regret saws.

best wishes
Lou

["Gary Brewer"]

Hi Brian: It is a USA Marathon motor.
Gary

[Jameel Abraham]

Okay, so thanks everyone again for all the advice. Once again, I've come full circle. The machine I had the first "gut feeling" for (the Bridgewood) is the one I'm going to go with. I spent tons of time online reading up on the different saws, talking to salesmen, trying to scrape some money together. About the only thing I'm sacrificing with the Bridgewood vs. the MM or Laguna is resaw capacity. Too me it wasn't worth hundreds more for this (plus the MM/Laguna are 16" machines). Now I need some advice on blades. But I'll start another thread about that.

[Pete Brown]

Great! I'm sure you'll be happy with that saw :)

For carbide, I like the Lenox 1" skip. For regular, I like the woodslicer.