Need a little help on venting

[Scott Shepherd]

First of all, thanks for allowing me on this forum. What a great resource! Now, down to business....

We've got a new Epilog Helix coming in 2 weeks and we've just moved into a new office space. It's in an office building and our rotary engraving doesn't seem to bother anyone. However, the blower unit showed up for the laser and I can see that it's probably going to exceed the noise level that's acceptable.

We have glass walls on 2 sides and other people's offices on the other 2 sides. We obviously can't vent through the plate glass, and we had thought we could tap into the main building's exhaust vent system, but we've just found out that we probably won't be able to do that. So, we have a laser on the way and no way to vent it.

Anyone have any suggestions for a system that we can operate in an office type environment? We know it's going to cost a small fortune, but we have little choice at this point.

One thing I have read on these forums is that the self contained systems like that tend to clog quickly when burning wood. When filter replacements can run between $150-$350, it seems that burning wood is going to cost us a lot in filters, which, obviously is a bad thing.

Anyone have any ideas for a solution to our situation, better yet, a low cost, effective solution? We'll spend the money needed, no matter what, but we'd prefer not to waste money either.

Thanks for your help, in advance-

[Mike Null]

I believe Trotec has such a system. You might want to visit your banker first.

[Dave Jones]

I have an Electrocorp ES-1400 electrostatic filter connected to an Electrocorp RSU20-CCHR.

The electrostatic filter has a series of plates charged at a high voltage that catch the majority of wood smoke. What's left is drawn into the other unit and goes through a triple filter (dust, HEPA, Charcoal). The blower unit is on the RSU and draws the air from the laser, through the electrostatic filter and then pushes it into the triple filter. The final filtered air goes back into the room.

It is extremely effective. I can not smell any fumes from wood or acrylic with this combination. It did cost a bit over $4,000 with shipping.

Cleaning the electrostatic plates is a pain. I have to soak them in a tub of water & Simple Green overnight and then rub them with long cue tips. Takes a couple of hours every couple of months (I use the laser lightly).

The electrostatic filter catches so much of the smoke that the HEPA and charcoal filters last many many times longer than they would otherwise.

[Carol VanArnam]

Scott- have you considered venting through the ceiling or down through the floor to the outside or to another location? Maybe you can run duct work to the outside by going up or down.....

[Scott Shepherd]

Hi Carol, we have. Originally, prior to ordering the laser, we checked and were told that we should be able to tap into the exhaust system of the building. So, we felt good about it. Only to find out yesterday that someone checked some more and believe that the exhaust vent is somewhat recirculating and we cannot use it. Below is concrete, above us is a dropped ceiling, 8' of empty space, and then the concrete for another floor. The walls of the building are all glass, so there's no way to go out any walls. The only way out is up, and we're on the first floor of a 4 story building.

I'm taking ideas and comments in, trying to resolve this. I found an old post where someone from epilog has sent someone here the plans of a system.

Basically, it was 4 filters, I think. A pre-filter, a HEPA, and 2 charcoals, I think.

Any reason why I can't have a sheet metal cabinet made, install a fan with the proper CFM's, and put the 4 needed filters in place? I'm sure I can do all that for less than $500 from what I can see so far. Would this work, or am I missing a key component. I know it's not electrostatically charged, but the systems we have been looking at didn't have that either. At this point, we're probably looking at the long term fix of moving the office (although we just got there), but we need something to get us through 6-8 months.

Can I just make the sytem myself with the 4 filters?

Thanks to everyone, I'm slowly learning!

[Richard Rumancik]

This is a tough one. I'm a bit skeptical about exhausting the air from the laser back into the room, even with a commercial filter unit. I don't buy the idea that if you can't smell anything then it is safe. The problem is that there is no easy way to determine that the system is actually taking all the contaminants out of the air, and smell is not an adequate test. If you try to build something you will never know exactly how well it is working. To play the devil's advocate: what if a bunch of people get sick and they determine it to be a result of the laser exhaust? At least if you have a commercial unit you have some fallback.

If I were you I would try to find a way to run a 4" or preferably 6" tube above the suspended ceiling to a point where you can go straight up to the roof. Then I would put a good size blower unit on the roof where it will not cause any noise or smell problems. There must be an elevator shaft or some opening formechanicals all the way to the roof. Use straight smooth tube wherever possible. Don't get hung upon the 10 or 20 foot limit that is being quoted in some places - if you can achieve the necessary flow rate the length of tube is not relevant. And there is very little pressure drop in a straight pipe going vertically to the roof.

Yes it will cost a bit of money. Too bad you have already planned to move out and won't have much time to recover the investment.

As an alternative - ducting is often oversized; could you run a 4" tube inside the existing duct to a point where you can get to the outside, so as to make the exhaust independent of the building system? Not sure where your blower would go though. It will be very noisy if sitting beside the laser.

[Mike Hood]

Richard has the right idea.

Just because you can't smell it... doesn't mean it's not there.

The carbon monoxide, chlorine, phosgene, hydrogen chloride, and other sulfurous gases alone, are reason enough not to vent back into an occupied space. I think checking with your local zoning office would help, but I'd where glasses and a fake mustache. :) No easy way (inexpensive that is), but a catalytic converter would be one way to "scrub" the noxious gases off.. but that's a whole 'nuther story.

[John Esberg]

Scott,

With my background as being certified in air quality certification, I wouldn't jump into a "homebrew" system so fast if I were you. Do you have a sniffer to test for toxic gasses once the system is in place? Do you have a "smoker" to check for leaks between your machine and the processing units? If your building has a low half-life on its air recirc, you are playing with a very risky liablility.

So, lets start from the beginning. Where are the people who drew up the building? The schematics must be somewhere. Have you talked with the architects?

Till later,

DAK

[Joe Pelonio]

One of the options I considered when I first got my laser (two-story building, I was on the bottom) was the 4" ABS downspout pipe from the roof. It was a tar/gravel roof with drain holes into the pipe and one of them exited through the front of the wall near my front door. I could have tapped into that to vent out the roof. The only real issue would have been to angle my piping down as it entered the downspout to ensure no water coming back. May be a chance of doing that in your case?

There was also a business associate that had a laser years ago used exclusively for rubber stamps (pheww) on the bottom of a 3-story. After the first day the complaints were constant, and with the tenants above him and the landlord, they worked out a vertical 4" pipe straight up in a corner which they boxed over in the 2nd and 3rd floors so it looked OK and didn't waste much of their space. Since there were drop ceilings the only real problem was the holes in the two floors, so the landlord made them extend their lease before agreeing to it and they had to pay for the work.

[Bill Cunningham]

If your just worried about using this system for 6-8 months before you move, I would consider temporarly installing the machine in another location.. Mabe your basement, or garage etc.. These are definatly not units to be installed in glass offices, or any other business offices for that matter..
It only takes one person to complain of a headache, and then all sorts of real or imaginary symptoms will suddenly manifest themselves, just before the lawyers start crawling out of the woodwork to the fragrance of easy money!!!

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks for the replies. All good information and suggestions. We just got back from a meeting with the representatives of the building. We pulled the plans, tracked down the duct work, followed it all the way to the roof, looked at all the options. They were not satisfied with us using their currect exhaust system, since it had smoke detectors built into the duct work.

So, filtering through their system is out of the question at this point.

Had we known then what we know now, we'd probably have done the entire deal different. We signed the deal to move there prior to a laser being in the picture.

They did come back to the office and had me cut a wall open, and they found a spot that we could use for a vent, straight through to the outside. There are precast columns on the corners of the building, and they said we could core drill through that and pop a vent straight outside.

Hopefully that has resolved the issue, and we know next time, that we need to look for a different type space for our next move.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. You have all been a big help. It's greatly appreciated!

[Joe Pelonio]

Thanks for the replies.

They did come back to the office and had me cut a wall open, and they found a spot that we could use for a vent, straight through to the outside. There are precast columns on the corners of the building, and they said we could core drill through that and pop a vent straight outside.

Hopefully the windows of the upstair neighbors do not open, and there are no HVAC intakes on that side of the building??

[Scott Shepherd]

Hopefully the windows of the upstair neighbors do not open, and there are no HVAC intakes on that side of the building??

That is correct. The entire building is glass on the outside, with the exception of some stone on the corners. There are no windows, only walls of glass, and no HVAC or vents anywhere on the outside of the building. It's all on the roof, 4 or 5 stories up 200 feet over as well.

It's a commercial office building.

[Dave Jones]

And no neighbors with windows that open?

[Dan Luciano]

This may sound like a silly solution but the plumbing vents have to run to the outside according to most state codes. In a commercial building the vents would have to be a minimum of 4". These are generally made of PVC but they may actually be cast iron. In any case, they are easy to tap in to by installing a saddle fitting or an actual tee. The only thing you would have to be concerned with is the smell getting back into your unit. You could solve this problem by installing a simple vent gate into whatever material you use to get to the vent or even on the back of your laser. Simple, but it might work.

[Scott Shepherd]

And no neighbors with windows that open?

No windows on the entire building. It's solid glass plate all over.


As for the plumbing vents, we're all set now. We can get out through the wall 5 feet from where the machine will be, where the corner of the building is, and be done with it.

[Dave Jones]

I meant neighboring buildings.

[Bill Cunningham]

I'd put a extra powerful vent blower in the system if your going to be doing a lot of wood!! The window cleaners are gonna be psssssst :D

[Scott Shepherd]

Sorry about that Dave, no buildings within 500ft or so. It's one of those "wooded" area office buildings where it's plenty of trees, and no buildings next to each other, so we should be fine with that.