Cyclone vrs std dust collectors

[John Grossi]

Could someone please explain to me the main differences in these two ways to do dust collection? I see a new thread discussing building a cyclone system. A few days ago there was a thread on using a 1.5 dust collector along with a home built shop filter with a squirrel cage blower.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Paul

[Chuck Saunders]

Hi Paul,
http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm is stop #1. I think that Bill has one of the most even handed presentations I have ever read. He speaks from the heart.
Chuck

[ron hill]

Paul,
I just recently bought the Jet 1100 canister DC. I spent a lot time reading all the posts and Bill Pentz's articles. There is so much information out there that I just ended up being confused. I would have went with the cyclone if I could have vented outside but that is impossible where I am at. Most everyone will agree that you want to run 6" mainline as close to your machines as possible and then reduce to fit. I'm very happy with the Jet as it collects both the dust and chips except at the CMS. I built a housing around the saw to contain whatever the DC doesn't get. Ron H

[Jake Helmboldt]

Paul, your question actually points to a third item; an air cleaner. The shop-made "collector" you mention (using a squirrel cage fan) is not a dust collector. It is an air filtration system used to capture the fine suspended dust that settles on everything. But a cyclone and a traditional single stage dust collector collect the big, medium and small chips. Better ones capture a large percentage of the fine dust as well.

The cyclone separates out the majority of the stuff before it hits the filters, thereby reducing plugging. It does it by swirling it in the cone and it drops out of the airflow into a collection bin.

A single-stage is essentially a big vaccuum cleaner that needs to be emptied and the filters cleaned when it fills up. The cyclone gets dumped when full, but minimal dust/chips should make it to the actual filters, reducing the cleaning needed.

[glenn bradley]

Once I added quasi-cyclone seperator atages to my DC and shop-vac the time between filter cleanings went up dramatically and air flow stays high much longer if you get lazy about clean up.

[John Grossi]

I am still not getting it. I am using a Delta 50-760 for my chip collection. I push it around my 25X20 shop. It seems to work fine for what I am using it for. I recently built 3 bookcases and did a lot of sanding with my orbital. That is when I noticed the fine dust on everything. I don't get how a cyclone would help me with that. I checked Amazon for air filters, such as the Delta 50-875, JDS 14022, and the Jet AFS-1000B. Feedback says these machines take care of most of the fine dust which I cannot contain with my present situation. They claim that their shop no longer has dust settling on their tools or in their lungs. I am also considering building an air cleaner. How would a cyclone setup help me? Would I still need an air cleaner if I switched to the cyclone? I have been reading Bill Pentz's web site little by little. I went to the Clear-Vue site and found that interesting. How would their $1000.00 system clean up the sanding dust, unless one buys the ceiling hung air filters. I have a feeling that a lot of new woodworkers like myself are concerned with fine dust. Any help would be appreciated. Paul

[Al Willits]

Paul, dust collection kinda reminds me of when I was drag racing bikes, my favorite saying then was, Speed and Spending both start with a S for a reason.
The faster/cleaner ya want to be, the more ya gotta spend.

I haven't a clue as to what you should be using, but when I went though adding a DC system to my garage I had to think about several things.

Had to be portable, or be able to sustain repeated blows from the wife parking her car in the garage
Had to be small enough that it didn't take up any more room than needed.
Had to be affordable, this is a hobby, not a career.
Had to do as much filtration as possible with in these guidelines.
Living in Minn it couldn't just vent outside, weather and the neighbors both prevented this from happening.

So...after reading all of what I could find on DC and becoming convinced I was gonna die if I didn't have a professional system in my garage, I took a few steps backwards and made a few compromises.
I now have the JDS portable unit with a 1 micron filter, and when I remember, I use a 3m filter mask.

So maybe ya might wanna decide on what ya can afford, how much room ya got and whatever other varibles ya can come up with and see what fits for you...??
Just a thought.
Al

[Phil Thien]

I am still not getting it. I am using a Delta 50-760 for my chip collection. I push it around my 25X20 shop. It seems to work fine for what I am using it for. I recently built 3 bookcases and did a lot of sanding with my orbital. That is when I noticed the fine dust on everything. I don't get how a cyclone would help me with that.

A cyclone probably won't help w/ the hand-held tools, as the dust ports are too small. I use a Shop-Vac for a tiny dust collection network in my shop. It collects pretty much all of my sander's dust.

[ron hill]

Paul, When I set up my system I tried to neck down the hose from the 6" piping to the sanders but I didn't have hardly any air movement and had fine dust every where while sanding. I now attach my sanders to my shop vac and that is working very well for me. I have a Jet 1000b suspended from the ceiling and that removes the dust from the air but you are still breathing it. IMHO it is best to control the dust at the source with a vacum or a down draft table. If I had to do it over I wouldn't buy the air filtration system. Ron

[JayStPeter]

I am still not getting it. I am using a Delta 50-760 for my chip collection. I push it around my 25X20 shop. It seems to work fine for what I am using it for. I recently built 3 bookcases and did a lot of sanding with my orbital. That is when I noticed the fine dust on everything. I don't get how a cyclone would help me with that. I checked Amazon for air filters, such as the Delta 50-875, JDS 14022, and the Jet AFS-1000B. Feedback says these machines take care of most of the fine dust which I cannot contain with my present situation. They claim that their shop no longer has dust settling on their tools or in their lungs. I am also considering building an air cleaner. How would a cyclone setup help me? Would I still need an air cleaner if I switched to the cyclone? I have been reading Bill Pentz's web site little by little. I went to the Clear-Vue site and found that interesting. How would their $1000.00 system clean up the sanding dust, unless one buys the ceiling hung air filters. I have a feeling that a lot of new woodworkers like myself are concerned with fine dust. Any help would be appreciated. Paul

Early on, I got a Jet 1100 DC and still had the fine dust settling everywhere. I got the AFS1000 air cleaner to help and it did. I have since hooked most of my hand held tools to my shop vac. Sanders are especially effective when attached to the vac, the little dust bins you attach are all but useless. Part of my new basement shop is a 2HP commercial Oneida cyclone system. When I turn it on and open a port, the dust floating in the air of my shop migrates to the tool being used. In other words, it is acting as an air filter. I rarely even turn on my AFS anymore. Dust collection is a priority with every tool I buy (well, OK, it doesn't play into handplanes, rasps and chisels ;) ) and I have upgraded a bunch of my handheld tools with that in mind. Aside from some recent drywall work, I have very little dust settling anymore. Handheld routing and finishing are the only times I turn on the AFS.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, in the BC years of my shop (Before Cyclone), I used a bag type single stage collector that was rated at 1 HP and 720 CFM.

Being a Technologist I performed all the duct calculations myself and installed the ductwork. The shop always had a layer of very fine dust on everything which truly made my collector a "dust collector".

Fast forward a few years, a planer upgrade from the portable type to a cast iron 15 inch model, and I needed to increase the airflow at the planer to 400 to 500CFM. No problem I thought, a couple of calculations, a couple of simple duct changes and all would be well.

No such luck, the planer was still spitting out chips, and if you were planing pine, the chips would be crushed into the wood, leaving dents. I borrowed an annemometer from work, and found that I only had about 230CFM at the planer. Check the frictional loss calculations, all looked OK, what was causing the problem?

The problem was that the manufacturer lied about the performance of the collector, as indicated below;

- empty bags with 10 feet of 4" pipe 270CFM

- empty, washed bags with above pipe 360 CFM

- same as above, no pipe 430CFM

- no bags at all 690CFM

So I did some research and bought a 1 1/2 HP Oneida cyclone with cartridge filter, rated at 957 CFM free air, with a cartridge filter, tested to ASHRAE standards that removes 99.9% of dust .2 to 2.0 microns in diameter.

The cyclone has a published fan curve, so you design ducting that works, and the filter works as advertised. All the fine dust that used to settle everywhere is now captured at source, including from my random orbital sander.

There is enough airflow that my cabinet tablesaw has almost zero dust emmisions, when using the base and overarm guard connections.

The maintenance is simple, the large chips are in the barrel, I use a plastic bag sized for the barrel, and once it's about half full, I put a twist tie on it and carry it upstairs and out to the garbage. The filter has all the fine dust on the inside, so you blow it down with compressed air, and the dust falls into the dust pan. Remove the pan, bag the dust and you're done. No more clouds of fine dust as yoy're emptying the old bag collector, that's the main point, not to breathe any of the fine dust, so why collect it and then breathe it during maintenance?

The 2 stage cyclones seperate the heavy chips out in the cyclone, before the air goes through the impeller, then the very dust goes through the impeller and into the cartridge filter. Far more eficient that a single stage collector.

You get what you pay for, and with the above system I don't need an air cleaner, since the dust didn't get into the air in the first place. No dust mask required either.

I've been so happy with my system that 3 other people have purchased the 2 HP system for themselves, as their shops are larger than mine.

Regards, Rod.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I would have went with the cyclone if I could have vented outside but that is impossible where I am at.
You are in North Dakota and you can't vent to outside?? I am in New Jersey and I vent to outside.

[Jim Becker]

You are in North Dakota and you can't vent to outside?? I am in New Jersey and I vent to outside.

Think "replacement air", Cliff...that's definitely a consideration in North Dakota most of the year! You and I, being in the temperate mid-atlantic/northeat have less issue with that, but I'd hate to dump my heat and/or AC air outside.

[ron hill]

Cliff, My main concern was keeping the garage warm plus when I initially layed out my shop I didn't give any consideration to putting in a DC system so the space I had available lent itself to the size of a small DC. I really wanted to put in a cyclone but I would have had to remove almost everything in the shop and start over which is probably what I should do.
It has warmed up to -4 which isn't too bad but the winds are about 25 mph. I need to go and get a gallon of lacquer but don't feel like going outside. Ron

[Charles McKinley]

Look at the Oneids portable unit, best of both worlds. i think Bob Marino has one and has posted about it.

[Howard Acheson]

The simplest responce to your question is that are basically two ways to accomplish chip and dust collection. One is to use a air pump and filter the exhaust with a bag or cartidge filter. This method puts all the chips and dust into the bag requiring frequent bag changes.

The second way is to use a pre-separater to separate and catch the larger chips before they get to the bag/filter. It's easier the empty the pre-separator and the bag/filter does not need as frequent cleaning. The pre-separate can be as simple as one of the garbage can top types or it can be a cyclone. The cyclone tends to separate smaller particles leaving less for the bag/filter to have to capture. So all a "cyclone" brings to the party is more effecient separation. Any pre-separator actually decreases the CFM of the dust collector so you need more horsepower to run a pre-separator type of dust collector.

The determinate of the size of dust particles that escape into the air is the filtration bag or cartridge. It has nothing to do with the type of separator used. A primative vacuum collector with just a bag to collect both chips and dust to a certain particle size is just as effective at dust collection as a large cyclone type dust collector with a filter rated at the same particle size.

[John Bailey]

I've been so happy with my system that 3 other people have purchased the 2 HP system for themselves, as their shops are larger than mine.

Regards, Rod.

Rod,

How big is your shop, and what's the longest run you have for your cyclone.

Thanks,

John

[Benjimin Young]

Hi Paul, here is my amateur, very simplified perspective on what each component does. Everyone, please jump in if I am way off


Tool setup:
· This is where you attempt to gather the dust and chips so a dust collector or vacuum and suck them away. You won’t be able to gather all the dust from some tools. For example, its very hard to corral all the dust from hand sanding, a hose attached to the sander is simply not enough; improvements could include modifications to the sander, down draft tables, boxes surrounding the sanding area, etc.

Suction
· You can gather the dust and chips but you still need something to suck it away or it just ends up back in the air and steeling in the shop. This is where the vacuums or dust collectors comes in. They provide the suction to take the dust and chips. Note, with the dust and chips they also suck a lot of valuable air from your shop, so ideally you want to return that air into the shop in a clean state; especially if you heat your shop in the winter or cool your shop in the summer.


Cyclone:
When the dust and chips get to the dust collector or vacuum the cyclone should help to
· put more dust and chips into a container instead of on the filter bags
· improve how well your dust collector/vacuum will suck the dust/chips away from the tool setup
· reduce how often you need to clean the filter bags


Air Filter:
· Despite all your great attempts, some dust will still be airborne. The air filter, often mounted near a ceiling, will help to filter out the airborne dust by simply circulating the shop air through a filter.

I’ll leave the “how” part o others.

I hope this over-simplified abstract helps.

[Jim Becker]

Ben, "suction" actually is minimally important for dust collection. Air flow is what moves the dust and chips as with DC systems (regardless of type) the SP (static pressure) which is the pressure difference between the "in" side and the "out" side of the system (very simplified, folks...don't shoot the messenger) is very low. (Unlike with vacuum cleaners) Best performance is actually when SP is low and air flow is highest. The more air you move, the more dust and chips you can collet...and the more efficient and targeted the collection point is that directs the air flow, the less dust and chips that will "escape" extraction. (Hood design)

[Bart Leetch]

Quote Rod Sheridan

"The 2 stage cyclones separate the heavy chips out in the cyclone, before the air goes through the impeller, then the very dust goes through the impeller and into the cartridge filter. Far more efficient that a single stage collector."


You should have very little fine dust going to the filters if the cyclone is properly made proper length & diameter. This is why Bill Pentz's web site was recommended. Many of the cyclone manufactures don't make the physical height & diameter of the cyclone right for optimal fine dust removal & it just goes on through plugging up your filters causing you to clean them far to often wearing them out sooner.

The manufacture is counting on the filters to do what their cyclone should do.

[Al Willits]

"""""""""
You should have very little fine dust going to the filters if the cyclone is properly made proper length & diameter. This is why Bill Pentz's web site was recommended. Many of the cyclone manufactures don't make the physical height & diameter of the cyclone right for optimal fine dust removal & it just goes on through plugging up your filters causing you to clean them far to often wearing them out sooner.
""""""""""

Been giving that some thought, and as I'm thinking of adding a separator to my JDS portable system, just wondering if using the smaller diameter cylinder and making it taller would work better than the standard trash can that gets used, thinking something along the lines of a standard 5 gallon plastic pail, only about 4 to 6 foot tall.
Anybody???

Al....who's wondering where to get a 6 foot pail? :D

[Chris Friesen]

The determinate of the size of dust particles that escape into the air is the filtration bag or cartridge. It has nothing to do with the type of separator used. A primative vacuum collector with just a bag to collect both chips and dust to a certain particle size is just as effective at dust collection as a large cyclone type dust collector with a filter rated at the same particle size.

While that's technically true, in practice a Pentz-style cyclone will perform more consistently because barely any of the dust actually gets to the filters--most of it is separated out by the cyclone itself.

If you put the same filters on a single-stage collector as you do on a cyclone the single-stage unit would clog up very quickly due to all the dust hitting the filters. This leads to more frequent filter cleaning, which in turn wears out the filters and degrades their performance.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi John, my shop is very small, 20 ft by 13 feet. I have the 1 1/2 HP Oneida with external filter, my brother who has a 24 X 26 shop has the 2 HP unit.

The longest run is aproximately 23 feet long. My cyclone is in a corner, nearest to the tablesaw with overarm guard (5" for saw cabinet, 3" for overarm). The jointer has a 4" duct, the planer and shaper use a 5 inch.

The longer runs serve two floor sweeps, an 18" bandsaw, a scroll saw, a drill press, and a lathe.

There is an overhead 4" near the bench for the random orbital sander and I've also used it with a plate joiner which worked surprisingly well.

When I use the random orbital, obviously there isn't enough airflow in the main duct, so I open the overhead above the bench which picks up almost 500CFM of flow, esentially acting as an air cleaner. Almost all the dust is picked up at the random orbital by the small hose.

Regards, Rod