Altering a chisel for dovetails

[Rob Blaustein]

I'm about to take a class on cutting dovetails by hand and recall reading that standard issue chisels are not ideally shaped for removing the waste. I can't remember where I read an article (problem with too many magazine subscriptions) about modifying a chisel by grinding off some of the sides I think to adapt it for dovetails. Can anyone provide some advice on this? The chisels I have are made by mastergrip--I think they were from Costco, so they're probably not too fancy--so I don't mind dedicating one to this. Thanks.
--Rob

Addendum: what size chisel would be a good one for starters?

[Ryan Cathey]

I'm pretty sure that article was in an issue of Popular Woodworking. Basically all they did was shorten the handle some(for better balance) and regrind the side bevels to allow them to fit in between the tails better for cleaning out waste. I can see the article in my head but just can't find the issue. I'm not very organized.

-Ryan C.

EDIT: I found it not five minutes after I said I couldn't. It is issue number 153, February 2006. It is Popular Woodworking, just like I thought.

[Rob Blaustein]

Thanks Ryan--I'll go through my pile, shouldn't take me long to find it.
Rob

[Mark Singer]

Rob,
I would just start out with a variety of sizes....I have a Two Cherries that is about 1/16" ! Until you have cut a few and develoed a technique...it is difficult to know what you may want...I chop all the waste to remove it...others cope it out... A Japenese chisel with triangular cross section will break the grain when choping from the side making it easy to remove waste...its one of those things that doesn't have one correct way and until you have made a few dozen , I would wait and just work on technique.

[Ted Loehrke]

Do most of you cut your dovetails by hand? I use a dovetail jig for mine but have been considering learning to do them by hand, just for tradition sake I gues.

[Ted Loehrke]

sorry about the previous post, forgot I was in the Neanderthal forum.

[Rob Blaustein]

Rob,
I would just start out with a variety of sizes....
OK, how about this set (http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05.307.1&dept_id=12783)--looks like a reasonable first step up from my Costco specials:rolleyes:. Only $1397. Maybe Costco has em for a little less...

[Mark Singer]

OK, how about this set (http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05.307.1&dept_id=12783)--looks like a reasonable first step up from my Costco specials:rolleyes:. Only $1397. Maybe Costco has em for a little less...
Wow! No don't jump into that .....the chisel aspect of dovetails is sometimes over emphasised...careful scribing and sawing is often the key.....a nice set just for dovetails would be the Blue Spruce ....not bench chisels but made for dovetails...http://www.bluesprucetoolworks.com/tools/index.htm

[Rob Blaustein]

Mark-I hope you realize I was kidding! And thanks for the link to the more affordable Blue Spruce chisels. But fefore I buy anything I think I'll take my cheapo chisels to the dovetail class on Saturday and see how it goes. But I'd like to figure out how to use my waterstones and Veritas jig to sharpen them. And maybe use a grinder to make one or two more triangular as was suggested. At least if I mess up, I've messed up on something like a $5-10 chisel.


Wow! No don't jump into that...

[jonathan snyder]

Mark,

Those blue spruce chisels sure are nice, but a bit spendy!. Have you used any of the Japanese dovetail chisels, Either from LV or Japan Woodworker?

What about a pair of skew chisels, are they any better for cleaning out the corners?

I am learning to cut DT's. I just cut my first two drawers worth this weekend. I was looking at the LV Japanese dovetail chisels last night. I'm thinking either a couple of those or a pair of skew chisels. What is your recommendation.

I just ordered the AI American pattern chisels from TFWW. I received the the 1/16" the rest are back-ordered.


I didn't mean to high-jack your thread Rob, but my questions seemed pertinent, and Mark is suck a wealth of Information.

Thanks
Jonathan

[Rob Blaustein]

I didn't mean to high-jack your thread Rob, but my questions seemed pertinent, and Mark is suck a wealth of Information.

Thanks
Jonathan

Hijack away--I'm sure I'll pick up something useful.

[jonathan snyder]

Hijack away--I'm sure I'll pick up something useful.

Rob,

All you will get from me is more questions!!! I am still trying to learn the ways of the Neanderthal myself!!

JOnathan

[Mike Henderson]

What about a pair of skew chisels, are they any better for cleaning out the corners?

Thanks
Jonathan
I like a skew chisel for cleaning out corners in half-blind dovetails but you don't have to spend a bunch to get two. Since they don't get hard usage, the quality of the steel is not that critical. What I did was to buy two 1/4 inch Irwin blue handle chisels and grind the skew on them myself - one left and one right.

I think they were under $10 each.

Mike

[Alan Turner]

Rob,
Here in the Philadelphia area, and probably in Boston as well, there are a number of used chisels available for very little, esp. if they are small, rusted, and without handles. Often they are good brands from the past, such as Butcher, Buck, Witherby, etc.

Take two at 1/4" wide or so, and grind them into the skew set.

Take the third, and file or grind about the last 1" or so into a three corner set, using about a 30 deg. angle, and coming to a point at the edge.

Make new handles as required. Should cost you less than $15 for all three. Mine are ugly, but work well.

[Mark Singer]

Mark,

Those blue spruce chisels sure are nice, but a bit spendy!. Have you used any of the Japanese dovetail chisels, Either from LV or Japan Woodworker?

What about a pair of skew chisels, are they any better for cleaning out the corners?

I am learning to cut DT's. I just cut my first two drawers worth this weekend. I was looking at the LV Japanese dovetail chisels last night. I'm thinking either a couple of those or a pair of skew chisels. What is your recommendation.

I just ordered the AI American pattern chisels from TFWW. I received the the 1/16" the rest are back-ordered.


I didn't mean to high-jack your thread Rob, but my questions seemed pertinent, and Mark is suck a wealth of Information.

Thanks
Jonathan

Jonathan,
I do have a set of Japanese dovetail chisels some are blue and some white steel, with a triangular cross section...they are good ground at about 30 degrees or more ...any less and the white steel don't hold the edge. I also have the Lie Neilsen chisels ....I switch back and forth depending on the size of the DT's.... I like to try to get a chisel the exact with of the pins ...and one the width of the tails..that way you don't have to move on the baseline and you have one chop going. On half blinds a paring chisel that is 3/8" wide is perfect for staying below the depth and back cutting still keeping the leading edge of the pins in tact since they are 1/2"...you need to be careful or you will see gaps on the inside of the drawer

[Dan Forman]

Rob,


Take the third, and file or grind about the last 1" or so into a three corner set, using about a 30 deg. angle, and coming to a point at the edge.


Alan---I'm having a hard time visualizing this, got a picture?

Dan

[Michael Gibbons]

Rob , I copied the chisel that Rob Cosman used in his Advanced Hand-Cut Dovetails video. I e-mailed Rob and he said his is a 3/4" chisel that he had ground the sides down on. From each side of the chisel the angle is about 30 degrees towards the inside. I bought a 3/4 Crown chisel from Woodcraft and ground it down. If you are holding the chisel in your hand, blade up, grind material away on both sides 'till the end looks like a dovetail, you only have to go in about 3/16 on a 3/4 chisel. ....Mike

[Alan Turner]

Alan---I'm having a hard time visualizing this, got a picture?

Dan

Dan, I'm sorry, but I don't seem to have a pix, although I thought I did.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I use a bachi nomi (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=15.330.12&dept_id=12760 ) for this. Also, a flat fish tail would do the job. Both as well as Cosmo's grind.

Pam

[Bob Smalser]

I'm about to take a class on cutting dovetails by hand and recall reading that standard issue chisels are not ideally shaped for removing the waste.

A common utility knife will clean pins and sockets without any added expense at all.

Or you can collect a few old junkers too short for much else and make yourself a set of these:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/72454940.jpg

[Nick Clayton]

Rob,

Before you go and alter any of your chisels take the class using the ones that you have. I've taken classes with Mike before, he graduated from North Bennett St. ages ago, and you'll find him to be a wealth of information and suggestions. Talk with him about the chisels you're using as well as ones that you're thinking of making before spending a couple hundred $ on new ones.

[Rob Blaustein]

Rob,

Before you go and alter any of your chisels take the class using the ones that you have. I've taken classes with Mike before, he graduated from North Bennett St. ages ago, and you'll find him to be a wealth of information and suggestions. Talk with him about the chisels you're using as well as ones that you're thinking of making before spending a couple hundred $ on new ones.

Thanks Nick, sounds like good advise. I took Mike's TS setup and safety class a few years ago and it was pretty good. He seems like a very nice guy and I'm looking forward to the class--which he unfortunately had to reschedule to 2 weeks later so I've got some time to play with my saw and practice cutting to a line. I don't really have any intention of spending money on fancy chisels right now so will do as you suggest.

Speaking of used tools, I've heard there is a good place in Waltham for picking up used hand tools--do you know it?

[Kurt Loup]

I ground this inexpensive 1/4" chisel free hand on my grinder. The tool rest was used for support. The bevel was sharpened to 25* and the sides are as close to a knife edge as I could get without being sharp. I haven't worked on the other one yet.

Kurt

http://www.loup-garou.net/sitebuilder/images/dovetail_chisel-443x600.jpg

http://www.loup-garou.net/sitebuilder/images/dovetail_chisel2-600x467.jpg

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Rob,

I use a fishtail carving chisel for cleaning out dovetails. You can hone a single bevel on it or use it as is with the double bevel. Its thin and the right shape and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

[Derek Cohen]

For half-blind dovetails, the chisel that is most useful for cleaning up to pin is a fishtail chisel.

Here is the one I modelled on Rob Cosman's:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/dovetailChiselRobCosman.jpg

To appreciate this, imagine that you are at the open pin and you want to clean out the corner. You can use a skew chisel, but you need of two of these, one for each side. One fishtail chisel does both corners. Illustration below:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailfishtailcutting2.jpg

The fishtail chisel above was made out of a 1/2" bevel edge chisel (it need not be a bevel edge for this process since the pin wall is 90 degrees/vertical). I made a 1/4" fishtail by grinding a straight bevel across the front of a carvers skew chisel. Like so:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/dovetailchisel1.jpg

And for my gloat of the day ... a birthday present of a set of Blue Spruce dovetail chisels from my wife.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/IMG_2149.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dallas Kerley]

Derek, I am trying to decide between the Blue Spruce chisels and the Lie-Neilsen set. I read that you dont think the Blue Spruce would make a good first set or only set. I do have a set of Blue Chips which I dont like, and would prefer not to use. Two questions I have are: 1) How are the Lie-Nielsen chisels for dovetails, especially the small 1/8 " one? 2 ) How are the Blue spruce for general light work, not chopping mortises, but other normal duty? I guess in short, I'm hoping for a comparison review. Thanks in advance.

Dallas

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dallas

I cannot give you a comparative review of the Blue Spruce vs LV since I have not used the latter.

The reason I chose theBlue Spruce is that they are, by reputation (feedback from those I trust), a better balanced chisel and superbly made. They are, however, designed to be pushed - whereas the LN appear to be better at being hit. That is not to say that the LN cannot be pushed, just they have a recommended secondary bevel that is 35 degrees since they are primarily a bench chisel. The BS is dedicated to paring dovetails andso can afford to have a lower cutting angle.

I have only just received the BS, but my first few swipes with indicate that they are going to be well loved.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dallas Kerley]

Thanks for the insight. I have learned a great deal from your many posts.

Dallas