Trend Airshield review, Beal distaster, Gloat/Gripe?

[Chris Barton]

I haven't posted nearly as much lately but, felt this was a good opportunity. First, my wife gave me a Airshield for xmas and I decided to give it a full workout today. She purchased the extra battery so, I charged both up as per the instructions. My first gripe about the Airshield is that you have to remove the batteries to charge them. This seems laughable for such a pricey face shield. Second gripe, the charger is not a smart charger and you must not leave the batteries hooked up past their charging period. Third gripe is the button that turns the unit on and off is located underneath a moving part of the shield and is often hard to reach without removing the thing from your head. Fourth gripe is that a pair of rubber bumpers at the top of the face shield get in the way of moving the shield down to where the material that cups your face can do it's job. Fith gripe, the pair of batteries charged as per specifications lasted for 5 hours before giving up (supposed to last near 8 hrs).

So, what about some positives? Well, it did a reasonable job of keeping wood dust out of my nose and off my face. It is not NIOSH certified and it clearly is designed keep big dust and chips out but, likely does very little to protect you from the most dangerous airborne particles (less than 1 micron). It is fairly comfortable but, does make considerable noise. Don't plan on listening to music while using this unless you use earphones. I do like the peel away shield protector.

Next part of this post is about a castastrophic Beal Buff wheel failure at about 2,000 rpms. While I was buffing out a piece with the three wheel system in the headstock and with a bull nose live center in place it evidently got out of balance and was instantly bent into the shape you see in the picture. Fortunately, I hit the emergency stop button (AKA the "oh $hoot" button). The picture was taken from where I was standing so you can't see the mess I made behind me at the time of structural failure. I returned the system to Woodcraft but, the highschool student running the store today couldn't provide satisfactory resolution to my situation. I am waiting for the owner to give me a call when he gets back from out of town on Monday. We will see what he has to offer.

[Mark Pruitt]

Sorry your day was so crappy. I've stayed away from the Trend for the reasons you cite about it not being NIOSH certified. Instead I use 3M 8233 respirators (N100) that I buy from Enviro Safety Products. They're re-usable, which helps keep the cost down.

Sounds like the shaft on the beall spindle may have had a defective spot. They should not give you any fuss about replacing it.

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Wow! What a lousy day! I never seen a buffing system go out of balance! How do you think it happened. Isn't 2000rpm a little fast? My system recommends 1200. Hang in there. Tomorrows another day.

[Jim Young]

Thanks for the write up. I've been thinking about buying one of these shields. I am really surprised that the charger isn't a smart charger, that means I would have to pay attention.

[Jim Ketron]

Chris I think the Trend Does a great Job! Why would you want the batteries non-removable? If they had to stay in the sheild to charge how would you keep on turning? I dont think I would like something pluged in to power while it was on my head!
a few of us Trend owners had a guy make up some longer lasting
battery packs, and we got a new quick chargers to go with them they last 2 times longer and charge in about 30 min.
I think they do need to upgrade to better batteries than what come on them but you might want to look into getting parts and making some new ones. you can probably make 4 battery packs for what one extra of theirs costs!

That sucks about the Beall system.
did the tailstock move?
I personaly like the single buffs mounted on an old 1075 rpm blower motor.
that way you can buff about anything you want without the other buffing wheels getting in the way or the bed ways of your lathe.

[Chris Barton]

Jim, I don't have a problem with the batteries being removable but, having to remove them to charge them is inexcuseable for an item that costs as much as a bargain tablesaw. This product should have a docking/storage station that would allow for both batteries to charge inside the Airshield while in the station. The fact that you and others have had batteries constructed with longer life only feeds into my gripe about the battery life. Quite frankly, the Trend Airshield is an expensive toy... and not very well engineered at that.

[Mike Ramsey]

Chris, it seems the battery system has always been an issue with
the airshield but I knew that before I got mine from research here
& other forums, I had decided before hand to build my own Mo-better
battery system for very little money. Now I have the 2 original & 2 home
made batteries that last quite awhile. If you decide to go that route
here's a link to a pdf article on how to build your own, including where
to buy parts. I found this article here or another forum can't remember
where so I uploaded it to my clubs site and put it under Articles.
http://www.stwt.org/Pdf%20files/100_-_Airshield_Battery_Pack.pdf

Sorry about the Beall! I have mine on a 1700 rpm motor off the lathe.

[Brian McInturff]

Chris,
It not being NIOSH approved by no means says it doesn't filter out the fine micron size dust particles. I posted a lot of information about this over on another forum(woodnet). Actually after doing the research and checking the UK and EU standards I was able to determine it filters down to .3 micron. I won't go into a lot of detailsbut a lot of people that use respirators are probably at a greater risk due to not having the proper training to wear these. I've been wearing them for over 25 years professionally. There are a lot of things to check with respirators. For some reason people think since it has the little label that says NIOSH then they are protected. Far from true. And the Trend meets the equivalent of the NIOSH standard in UK and EU. It has there stamp of approval. I'm not affiliated with Trend or any other manufactuer. I just make my living doing hazardous work that requires respiratory protection. Brian

[Chris Barton]

Brian,

I completely understand about the NIOSH standards and a false sense of safety. But, there are plenty of places where particles the size of 1/8" could penetrate the inner protion of this mask. If air flow is perfectly delivered through the filters it might reach 0.3 microns but, it doesn't deliver anything near that in real life. I'm sorry, I am calling this like I see it. At $280+ this is an expensive toy. It neither delivers as a high efficiency dust mask or a high quality face shield. However, it does have plenty of "gadget factor" and I think it's like the parable about the Emperor's new clothes, he's wearing none...

[Steve Schlumpf]

Chris, sorry to hear about your dissatifaction with the Trend Airshield. I've had mine a couple of weeks now and think it works pretty good.

As far as the battery charger, on page 3 of the user manual it states:

Mains operated double insulated complying with the most high integrity standards. 4.35v @ 100 ma DC output, constant current with current limiting circuit. No known overcharge problem when batteries are left in for long periods.

To me that indicates a 'smart' charger in that it drops down to a trickle charger once the battery is 'charged'.

As far as your thoughts about having a charging dock for the unit - I like it. It would be a lot nicer to just plug in the unit when you were done for the day.

Not trying to throw any charcoal on the fire - just thought I would let you know about the battery charger.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for that insight. I was going by what is written on page 7 which states that "after the charging period, withdraw the charger from the AC supply socket and disconnect the battery pack from the charger," along with a prominent warning in bold and with a warning sign that says that the charger MUST be disconnected from the mains when not in use which seems incongruent with the notion that this is a "smart charger."

Please do challange anything you feel differently about with this unit.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Chris, I think the battery charger is supposed to be unplugged when not used to prevent the unit from being damaged from heat. Even though it isn't charging anything the transformer disipates heat.

Only complaint I have about the unit is the rig-a-ma-roll you have to go through to get the batteries installed. I have a dickens of a time unsnapping the front cover in order to slide it forward and remove the battery. Figure it will get easier with time.

[Chris Barton]

I would love for this unit to really deliver on the popular perception it has developed. I don't have to unplug any of my other power tool chargers when they don't have a battery in them. Even my Ryobi drill charger knows when it's empty. Installing the batteries is not too bad in my unit but, your point is well taken. For this kind of money there should be a wall mounted combination storage charger unit with TRUE smart charging and lithium ion batteries. The only reason this one didn't go strait back to the store is because my wife gave it to me for Christmas. By my figuring, this unit with spare battery, taxes, and shipping ran about $358 and quite frankly, I can't see why anyone would pay even a third for this gizmo. My $20 polycarbonate faceshield and 5 cent 3M mask will do everything this does except, satisfy the gadget fascination. However, it does look a lot like the space suit helmets from "2001 a Space Oddessy."

[Steve Schlumpf]

Mike, thanks for the battery info. Looks like the way to go for power. I just picked up some new Ni-MH batteries for my camera and they are up to 2500 mAh now. Should last a long time. Thanks for the info!

[Brian McInturff]

Chris,
It creates an positive pressure inside the helmet. You won't breathe in dust from around theshield with a positive pressure system. Sorry, it just won't happen. The filters filter the incoming air from the source to .3 microns. A3m dust mask will just shorten your life. The first question I always ask people that feel the respirator is better is when was your last spirometer test. This should be done yearly and only if you pass should you even consider wearing a respirator, half face or full face. Then you should consult with a specialist to determine what size you should actually have. The list goes on and on. If you have a positive pressure there is no way a particle even at .3 microns can enter in. It would be like Salmon swimming upstream. I will accept the fact that you are a dissatisfied buyer, and that I fully understand but the operation of the unit does what it should unless you bought a faulty Trend. If you really want protection in this type of unit then you should consider the Airstream. Price is around 600-700 but they work great. Bill Grumbine wears one I believe. I've wore them on various jobs and also other PAPR's.

Hope I didn't come across like I'm flaming, just trying to make sure the facts are laid out versus a personal dissatisfication.
Brian

[Keith Burns]

I have had mine for a couple of weeks now, and I won't turn with out it. Once you get used to it, you forget you have it on. The fan in mine is quiet. No real problem hearing. As far as the battery holding a charge, mine goes for 4 hours. The instructions state that the full working capacity of the battery will not be achieved until the battery has been thru 3 or 4 complete charging cycles. I can see on the filters the dust I am now not breathing. Are there some things I would change ? Sure. If I had a Lexus, I'm sure I would find things on it that I would change. So, nothings perfect. If I was unhappy, I'd send it back.

[Chris Barton]

Brian,

I understand the concept of positive pressure and that if the motor could actually provide true (constant) positive pressure then, your premise would hold true. But, the average tidal volume of an adult male is about 800 ml which is inspired and exhaled in less than 2 sec. There is no way the motor in this unit is pushing anything near even a half a liter a second. Thus, there is no positive pressure when you are breathing..

[Bernie Weishapl]

Sorry to hear your problems Chris. I have had my Trend now with 2 batteries for 3 months. I wouldn't be without it. My batteries now last after 3 or 4 complete charges for at least 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 hrs. I plug my batteries in overnight and have not had a problem at all. Hope you get your buffing system straightened out.

[David Fried]

... It would be like Salmon swimming upstream.

And yet they do.

I've always been tempted but I guess I'll hang on to my dust-be-gone and visor a little longer.

[Brian McInturff]

Chris,
I'll see this week if I can get one in and do a volume test on it. I'm not really sure it would have to supply 400ml a second as a minimum either. I'll have to look that up at work. Check your filters also because as they become clogged then the output volume will decrease.
Really you should look at an Airstream. I know guys that have used them doing lead abatement and Asbestos abatement. The company I work for doesn't allow them(Airstreams) for liability and insurance reasons. I'm at a point now I don't wear a respirator(management position) but my preference is supplied air.

It is possible you got a faulty unit. Worth checking out since it is a higher dollar item.

Brian

[Brian McInturff]

How right you are Dave and I'm glad they do. Makes them easier to snag. Anyway I was using that as a point that it goes against the norm.
Wish I was back in Alaska for the salmon:)
Brian

[Barry Stratton]

I'll give you $100 for the whole Trend shooting match...and pay shipping:D I've tried it and loved it...

[Ernie Nyvall]

Third gripe is the button that turns the unit on and off is located underneath a moving part of the shield and is often hard to reach without removing the thing from your head. Fourth gripe is that a pair of rubber bumpers at the top of the face shield get in the way of moving the shield down to where the material that cups your face can do it's job. Fith gripe, the pair of batteries charged as per specifications lasted for 5 hours before giving up (supposed to last near 8 hrs).


I wonder if you got one that was not put together right. My button sticks out through the hole for easy access. On the fourth gripe, mine has an adjustment for that located on the top strap that made it come on down below my chin. As far s the batteries, I haven't had a problem. I only put one in at a time and keep the other charged and each of them has lasted almost four hours, and I very seldom have a need for it more than 5 hours at a time.

I got mine for a hundred less than you say, but I agree it is too expensive even at that, but then just about all mfgs are gouging woodworkers these days. As far a gadget fascination, I don't think so in that it does four things for me... it keeps dust out of my nose, shields my face, doesn't fog up, and I don't sweat inside of it.

Sorry to hear about your beal system. It seems like your tail stock had to have slipped back for that to happen. It would be almost impossible for that to happen if it were secure at both ends, especially with where the bend is.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Chris.....I'm truly sorry that you have such a distaste for the Trend Airshield! I like mine. I wear it and find that it keeps the sweat off my forehead and thus keeps the sweat off my glasses even in the exteme summer heat here. I'm nearly deaf....about 30-40% of normal hearing. I often turn on my radio to a local 60s station and turn listening and singing along with the songs on the radio. Note...my shop is well insulated and no the neighbors can't hear.

[John Terefenko]

Chris

I read your findings and now I have to ask when are you going to sell it????? The next question is what are you going to buy instead????? I hope you are using some kind of of dust protection for your own sake. If you took the time to disect it afterards why did you not take the time before you bought it????? Just seems odd to me.

[Corey Hallagan]

Yikes on the buff system. Bummer hope you get fixed up. Maybe you will warm up to the Trend system after awhile.

Corey

[Bill Boehme]

It creates an positive pressure inside the helmet. You won't breathe in dust from around theshield with a positive pressure system. Sorry, it just won't happen.

This is not necessarily so because the positive pressure is based on static conditions. The Trend has a rather modest airflow so the relative pressure during inhaling can actually be less than the pressure outside the Airshield. During that time, it is possible to have momentary periods of slight negative pressure and it is during those times that there could be infiltration of dusty air.

Bill

[Brian McInturff]

Bill,
It wouldn't pass UK and EU standards if this were the case. As I mentioned earlier I will try and get one to test the volume this week at work. I understand if the pressure dropped below your personal intake then obviously you will pull from outside the shield, such as gasping after working to hard etc. Same can happen with a respirator since the seal will break usually around the chin and or just inside of the temple region. Chris may have gotten a bad unit or the filter could have came from a bad lot. You wouldn't beleive how many recalls I use to see on filters when I managed the respiratory program at another company. I don't really keep up with it now as our H/S guy has that responsibility.

I guess I should have worded that statement different so as to not imply that any and all positive pressure systems.

An unfortunate event that happened several years ago: An independant worker, I forget where this was at, decided to make his own Positve Pressure system using his air compressor. The Coroner pronounced him dead at the scene. Such cases are rare but do your homework when you decide to pick your protection.
Brian

[Mark Cothren]

I'll give you $100 for the whole Trend shooting match...and pay shipping:D I've tried it and loved it...

I'll up it to $110...

[David Walser]

... I wear it and find that it keeps the sweat off my forehead and thus keeps the sweat off my glasses even in the exteme summer heat here....

Extreme summer heat!? In Idaho?! Ken, come on down to Mesa, Arizona, in August. We'll show you some summer heat. It tends to get pleasantly warm around here that time of year. :)

In all seriousness, I agree that a positive air system like the Trend can make turning more comfortable. I use the Triton. I find it helps keep me cool and safe.

[Bill Boehme]

It wouldn't pass UK and EU standards if this were the case.
I guess that my understanding was not clear on whether it was the filter or the Trend unit as a whole. My assumption was that it was the filter that was certified to some UK/EU standard. It also implies that the US standard is more stringent, else they would advertise meeting US standards. Correlating the meaning of different standards may prove to be a difficult task to say the least.

I do know that the Trend is not used in industrial applications such as coal mines in the UK. The 3M BreatheEasy and Airstream and variants are made in the UK by what used to be Racal. If I am not mistaken, the HEPA filters used in these units are also made in the UK.

Bill

[Chris Barton]

Hi John T., the Airshield is a present from my wife, I didn't buy it or I would have done better due dilligence. Barry and Mark, if I do decide to risk POing SWMBO, I will post it in the classified here and let bidders battle it out and hope you both will bid high and often!:p Corey, Ernie, Bill and others, This might have been an example of a defective day. Problem with the Beal and with the new toy, all while turning something for the local parish auction. But, I did manage to save the piece. As my sergeon collegues sometimes say, the patient died but, the operation was a success...;)

[Dan Faux]

Hey Chris

Felt I had to say something in defence of the Airshield, I have had mine now for two years or more and I have never been dissatisfied with its performance. I charge one battery whist using the other and have never had less than 5 hours of use. I have left batteries charging for weeks at a time and once again never a problem. A friend of mine has added a socket to his Airshield to allow charging without taking the batteries out and has also made up a couple of extra batteries. I personally have not found the need to change anything. Perhaps the model sold in Australia differs from the one sold in US who knows?. A tip for you, buy a box of Photocopier transparencies and some double sided tape an you can change the visor protector without it costing anywhere near as much as Trends.

Dan

[Chris Barton]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the insights! To be absolutley honest, I may be expecting too much from this unit. I spent a great deal of time last night doing some homework on the computer and found that this product isn't really intended to be an airfiltration unit. Even it's official title "air circulating face shield" hints at this. The only safety certification it carries is an ANSI Z87.1 which is a safety rating for eye and face protection and all plastic eye protectors meet this minimal rating. The flow rate of the fan is 6.36 cfm under ideal conditions which is why it can't provide true positive pressure. To do so it would need a flow rate much higher. But, what puzzels me is that people readily accept the low performance of a unit that's so expensive. If this were a cordless drill it would be rejected in a heartbeat by most serious woodworkers. In psychology there is a principal called the "initiation effect" in which when someone has to pay a hughe cost to aquire a questionable gain, they are more likely to defend their decission. I see this when people reject tool reviews about their expensive new products and try and find ways to justify their choices. I will keep this unit but, I can promise you that some tinkering will happen to see if it can be made better. Heck, the folks at Steel City Tools are just down the street. Maybe it's time I paid them a visit and discuss an idea I have...

[Mark Pruitt]

Guys,
The bottom line for me is, I just can't bet my lungs on something that there is this much debate/controversy/unclear findings about. Trend needs to get their poduct NIOSH certified. Until then I'm staying with something I know works (3M 8233 respirator masks). How do I know it works? (1) It's dirty on the outside and absolutely spotless on the inside. (2) When I do a quick inhalation to test the fit I detect zero airflow through the outside edge.

[Keith Burns]

Hi Dan,

But, what puzzels me is that people readily accept the low performance of a unit that's so expensive. Maybe it's time I paid them a visit and discuss an idea I have...

Yup Chris, we are all stupid and you are so smart !

[Mark Pruitt]

I would hate to see this discussion sink to things that are being taken personally. This is important stuff. Like I said a few minutes ago, it's my lungs--if they go then nothing else matters.

I realize that I'm disagreeing with a lot of guys who I have a lot of respect for, and that is an uneasy position to be in. But this subject really does boil down to life-and-death decisions so it's important to get it "right," whatever "right" is, and I'm not claiming to have a monopoly on "right" either!

[David Fried]

But, what puzzels me is that people readily accept the low performance of a unit ...

Chris,

If inhaling dust caused instant impotence I expect we would all be much more aware and diligent. As a doc, I'm sure you realize the insidious nature of things that we can't see and whose effects aren't immediately noticeable.

The gentleman who taught the pen making class I took at Woodcraft a couple of years ago owned one. He told the story of working on his lathe in the basement when a piece came flying off, hit him in the head, and lodged in the ceiling. The noise was so loud his wife came running from two stories above. When he picked himself up off the floor he found a scuff on the AirShield and a scratch on his face. They may not carry crash helmet certification but there is anecdotal evidence that they provide a pretty good measure of protection.


Yup Chris, we are all stupid and you are so smart !

I am not stupid but I certainly do stupid things, often for stupid reasons. I think I do fewer stupid things since I started learning from others here.

Carry on ...

[Chris Barton]

Yup Chris, we are all stupid and you are so smart !

Wow Keith, I hadn't expected that kind of response. I thought the whole reason for the forum was to discuss things but, I guess there is no room here for difference of opinion. OK, so I will once again retreat from the turning forum since there doesn't seem to be a place for those of us who don't walk in lock-step with the crowd. I am sorry I so challenged your beliefs as to make you angry. But, there does appear to be a crowd here that embraces the "think like us or else" attitude.:(

By the way, has this become a topic of discussion over at your locked forum?

[Brian McInturff]

Chris,
Actually it meets BS EN 146 THP2(NPF20) which is the equivalent of our NIOSH N99 filter standard of .3 micron. They use the same media to test with also, Sodium Chloride. This rating gives it a 99% efficiency rating. It's pump provides an Airflow of 180 l/mn which would mean it provides more than the 400ml a second.
One reason these aren't used in the Industrial or Mining industry is there is no backup. If the battery fails or the outside airflow exceeds the airflow from the positive pressure then it puts the operator at risk. This is strictly prohibited by 29CFR. I haven't looked at the NIOSH certification standards so I can't comment on why the THP2 filter isn't NIOSH approved.
Paying them a visit might be a good idea since they have started manufacturing these in the US now.

Mark,
With all due respect your mask check doesn't show you anything. You won't always see the finer particles on the inside and a quick inhalation exhalation check only means you have a seal at that very moment. In the "industry" the check is done by vigorous movement followed by an irratant smoke test. The "Rainbow Passage" is also sited by the wearer and a check done with the smoke during that. Half face respirators will never hold a good seal and most companies in the business of wearing respirators have gotten away from them. But, if you're happy with it that's all that matters.
Me myself: it's a do as I say not as I do situation. I use a fanbehind me and one pulling in front of me right now until my new Airstream comes in. I've exposed to a lot worse things and the little bit of dust is the least of my worries. Of course I don't recommend this way to anyone.

[Brian McInturff]

Chris,
No need to go back to lurking, these discussions are how things usually get improved or people learn new info they previously weren't aware of. I never take things personally and hope no one ever gets offended by what I type. Some times reading words can be misconstrued by the person reading them. Maybe Keith didn't mean what he said in the way you are taking it. I personally have enjoyed all the postings. Brian

[Brian McInturff]

Chris,
BTW, great save on the piece. Great color combination and I always love anything in that shape. What finish exactly did you use. Brian

[Chris Barton]

Hi Brian,

My owner's manual says that the only European rating it carries is the BS EN166:1995 which is a impact rating essentially the same as the ANSI rating mentioned earlier and specifically states that "this unit does not carry any approvals for sales in North America and Canada (which I thought was part of North America)."

Again, just my observations. I didn't intend to threaten anyone's core values or beliefs.

[Chris Barton]

Chris,
BTW, great save on the piece. Great color combination and I always love anything in that shape. What finish exactly did you use. Brian

Thanks Brian! I hope it makes the church some money!:D

[Brian McInturff]

Chris,
All the info I obtained was from either their website or various other UK websites. I'm only using the info I've found. Plus I double referenced the THP2 fiters to the EU standard and they were listed. Trend definitely needs to get their act together. There is no doubt about that. I'm wondering if you got an older unit somehow. Did your wife buy it from a reputable dealer? Off the web? Could've been an old stock item that they were trying to move. From the pics the switch should protrude out through the opening. Couldn't tell if the offset was just from the angle.
Brian

[Ed Scolforo]

Brian,

I understand the concept of positive pressure and that if the motor could actually provide true (constant) positive pressure then, your premise would hold true. But, the average tidal volume of an adult male is about 800 ml which is inspired and exhaled in less than 2 sec. There is no way the motor in this unit is pushing anything near even a half a liter a second. Thus, there is no positive pressure when you are breathing..
Chris, just a little clarification on these numbers. The average tidal volume is closer to 500 ml, and with a normal respiratory rate of 12-16 breaths/min. you're looking at a minute volume of 6-8 liters. With a normal inspiratory/expiratory ratio of 1:2, you would be spending about 1.7 seconds on the inspiratory phase, and 3.4 seconds on expiration for a total of approx. 5 seconds at 12 bpm. At 16 bpm you would spend 1.25 sec. on the inspiratory phase and 2.5 seconds on expirationfor a total of 3.75 seconds at 16 bpm.
I've had the Trend for over a year and have had the batteries last at least 5 hours per charge and have left them in the charger for prolonged periods of time as well as keeping the charger plugged in without any apparent problem. I don't find it excessively noisy but find that my eyes get dry by the constant airflow. My dust allergies have been much better with the mask. Just my $.02.
Ed

[Steve Schlumpf]

Chris, just wanted to let you know that I have enjoyed this thread. I am a Trend owner/user and like the product but I sure want to know if there is something I can do to improve it's performance or my comfort.

Heck, found out a way to make my own battery pack for a fraction of the cost - just because of this discussion.

Don't let any comment sway you from this forum - we all need your input - we learn from each other!

[Keith Burns]

Chris, discussion and differing opinions are fine. Comments like I can't believe people are stupid enough to buy this piece of crap (paraphrased) are not, IMHO.

[Jim Ketron]

Guys use what ever you want for dust protection, but do wear something!
Something is better than nothing at all!
I have had the Trend for 2 years, It works great!
Is it 99-100% efficient? NO!
Is there anything out there that is?
Maybe a re-breather?
But who wants to wear that turning if I ever get to where I have to wear something like that I will just sell my tools and give it up.
Everyone is in titled to opinions you have stated yours and so has everyone else.
BTW This product can be had for $229 and IMO its worth every penny!
I did some modifications to better suit my needs just like I do with most every woodworking product or tool that I use.

[Mark Pruitt]

Mark,
With all due respect your mask check doesn't show you anything. You won't always see the finer particles on the inside and a quick inhalation exhalation check only means you have a seal at that very moment. In the "industry" the check is done by vigorous movement followed by an irratant smoke test. The "Rainbow Passage" is also sited by the wearer and a check done with the smoke during that. Half face respirators will never hold a good seal and most companies in the business of wearing respirators have gotten away from them. But, if you're happy with it that's all that matters.

Brian,
Actually it doesn't matter that I'm happy with my solution, if it does not give me the level of safety I want. It means nothing to me to feel good while plunging to death from COPD. The only thing that matters to me is what is truth, and if it dictates that I need to find a different solution to the issue of respiratory protection then that's what I should do.

I basically have only two concerns about the Trend Airshield; (1) its filtration not being NIOSH certified--if it meets criteria then they need to get the certification, if not then they need to make improvements; and (2) its airflow not being demonstrably adequate to guarantee positive pressure at all times, taking into account that there are moments when the user may be distressed by something like a violent catch or an especially challenging cut and the distress translates into heavier breathing.

Actually, I can add a third concern, and that revolves around the issue you raised about holding a good seal. I don't have a Trend handy So I can't take actual measurements, but I would estimate that with the Trend you have somewhere in the ball park of 30" of seal, whereas with the respirator I use it's more like 12". So the Trend has around 2.5 times as much area in which there is a possibility for a gap. It seems that the airflow should be overwhelmingly greater to compensate for this.

Finally, again since I don't have a Trend I don't know what material it uses for a seal, but my 3M 8233 masks have a rubber seal which seems to me like it improves as I wear it, since perspiration from my skin combines with the rubber seal. And, the mask can be custom fitted to my face, which I am almost sure the Trend cannot say foir itself.

Again, all I care about here is the truth. If I am wrong then I will accept it. But so far my questions are still lingering.

[James Duxbury]

Mr. Duxbury's post has been deleted because he has once again shamelessly promoted his own product (and dissed other products) in violation of our TOS.

Stop it, Jim. NOW.

Andy Hoyt
Moderator

[Ed Scolforo]

James, no offense, but if I want to go snorkeling, I'll go to the beach:rolleyes:

[Gary Herrmann]

Ya know Ed, that's a good point. Almost makes me wish I still owned my own scuba equipment. A tank refill would be pretty cheap...

I'm sure someone somewhere has tried scuba equipment for dust control.

Altho I'd imagine that the dust would damage the valves in the respirator.

[Bill Boehme]

........ what puzzels me is that people readily accept the low performance of a unit that's so expensive...

Stuff happens -- I know that I have purchased some products that didn't meet my expectations that were fueled by exaggerated advertising claims. Usually, I wound up keeping the product anyway perhaps partly as a reminder to be a more wary consumer.


Yup Chris, we are all stupid and you are so smart !

Where did that come from? There was a good discussion going about the merits of a product -- and then this uncalled for personal slap. For a moment, I thought that I had somehow shifted over to reading the "General" forum.


..... I would hate to see this discussion sink to things that are being taken personally....

Amen, brother.


Wow Keith, I hadn't expected that kind of response. I thought the whole reason for the forum was to discuss things but, I guess there is no room here for difference of opinion......

See my response above to Keith's comments. I hope that there is room here for difference of opinion.


Chris, discussion and differing opinions are fine. Comments like I can't believe people are stupid enough to buy this piece of crap (paraphrased) are not, IMHO.

Keith, you may have taken paraphrasing to uncharted territory. Direct quotes are much less likely to distort the meaning of statements.


James, no offense, but if I want to go snorkeling, I'll go to the beach

I hope James is not offended -- I did think that your comment was funny. I also appreciate James' suggestion, but I am one of those people who is bothered by a dry mouth and my experience with using a CPAP machine has convinced me that this would not work in my case.

Bill

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Extreme summer heat!? In Idaho?! Ken, come on down to Mesa, Arizona, in August. We'll show you some summer heat. It tends to get pleasantly warm around here that time of year. :)

In all seriousness, I agree that a positive air system like the Trend can make turning more comfortable. I use the Triton. I find it helps keep me cool and safe.

David......We may not get to AZ temps...but I've seen 120 degrees F here. We typically have about 4 weeks (end of July..beginning of August)of 100-110 F here in Lewiston. We are in the Snake River Canyon at a elevation of 650' above sea level. Our average moisture is 12" per year....2" inches less we'd be a desert. We have 2 water systems....domestic (treated) for use in the house and irrigation (untreated) for use outside. We start watering our lawns typically in May or by early July the grass goes dormant.

[Scott Donley]

James, after making the comment that the Trend is junk and how much better and cheaper the XXXXX is, you should also point out that you are the inventor and stand to profit from it's sales.

[Brian McInturff]

Mark,
I'm not really trying to saythe Trend is better than a respirator. They both have their merits. Biggest point about respirators are there is more room for error without you ever knowing. There are several other PAPR's on the market that would make the Trend seem like a dust mask. But those come at a price. Usually between 600-1500.
Usually when a person sweats is when the mask is more likely to leak. It will seat better as long as you don't have any quick movements or if the skin doesn't stretch beyond the seat point. Also if you sweat alot the water usally will drain down to the chin area and this does cause a lot of leakage with people. My best advise for anyone who wants to persue wearing a respirator is see a doctor, ask for a spirometer test. If you pass then find an environmental company and ask someone there to fit test you, they have the smoke irratants to do a proper check with.

Gary,
Yhere is a very similar setup used in the environmental and fire fighting industry. SCBA(Self Contained Breathing Apparatus). I really don't even want to go into all the required checks for this but I will say it's guaranteed to not allow any dust in. Get a Viton suit and you can walk into some of the most dangerous chemicals known(My old job).

I think one of the main things to remember is that if you do breath in some dust that it doesn't mean you will shorten your life. Your body has a natural filtering process. Wearing any of the protections will most likely perform well enough at filtering to take care of any real issues. The Trend and PAPR's are ideal for those with beards and those that wear glases. Also they provide some cooling effects to the facial area which will help keep your body temperature down a few degrees in the heat of the summer. Likewise, the typical respirator will cause you to breath a little harder at times and will cause you to sweat a lot more. They put a lot of stress on the respiratory system over time and that's why I recommend the spirometer test.
Brian(in rainy SC)

[Mark Pruitt]

Thanks for the clarification Brian. When I said "perspiration" I wasn't talking about beads of sweat but the normal moisture that is created when warm skin contacts rubber for a prolonged time. It's hard to describe, but if you'll take a "Post-It" note and stick it to your cheek, then pull it off, that's pretty much the same as it feels to me when I remove a 3M 8233 respirator.

[Michael Cody]

Interesting set of posts ... but I have a simple question ... for years hobbiest turners have used nothing.. a few ran into problems. Now many of us use something but not too many have gone to the end-all of a Scott AirPack to alleviate dust.

While I agree with some of the comments here, I don't use anything except a half-face 3m respirator when I am sanding, finishing, etc. Turning with a skew doesn't generate to much dust anyway. But still I may not be perfect but I bet I am 80-90% better than nothing at all .. which makes it a good choice. I am sorry you feel ripped by the cost of the Trend, that is why I don't have one (the cost anyway) .. But I bet even when it's not perfect you are breathing a lot less dust than you did w/o it so that is good no? It's a hobby for Christ's sake .. you breath more bad air walking from a parking garage to your office, in a mall, grocery store, gas station, etc. than you do turning. There are tonnes more chemicals and nasties in that environment and you probably spend more time there. How 'bout home environments, cooking stuff, etc.. it's everywhere.

I bet that has a lot more to do with any problems you might have or will develop. I don't see anyone saying you need wear your Scott AirPack there right? You can use what's under your control to provide and make that time in the workshop safer, but I don't see why anyone needs to go all holy on the idea like some of the messages here. Why is everything such a drama contest?:confused:

Just my usual 0.02$ worth, now I got to go and breathe 90% less dust finishing a bowl for our receptionist to use as a candy dish at work... have a nice day and turn something good. :)

Oh BTW -- that buffer is weird but I too think 2k is a tad fast, 1000-1100 is normally where I am at.

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Right on Michale! Very well thought out post and i'm in total agreement.
P.S. I like your signature!:D

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Chris,

Appologise to the wife and return it if you don't like it! If you don't like it you won't use it. Why use safety equipment that needs tweaked to make you happy? One trip to the ER will more than offset the cost difference.

Try an Airstream and you will never look back.

An OSHA approved hard hat has prevented serious injury and possible death more than once when I was building steel storage tanks. If that bar had hit you in the head the trend is useless! It cannot be attached to a hard hat. I asked when researching these systems.

I have extream allergies to grass and the 3M allows me to do yard work and work comfortably in the shop.

3M gives you great battery life and the weight of the battery is on your belt not your neck. I fish the wire from the helmet down through my search so there is no chance of it getting tangled in the lathe.

3M also includes a tester to judge if the airflow is adequate or if the filter needs changed.

I could not make sense of the data available on the trend the people from trend were less than helpful.

I was told by a vendor they don't NIOSH certs because they don't want to pay for the test.

I went with 3M for the hard hat, certs., reputation, and a long standing dealer repersentation.

Very happy customer, no relationship with 3M

Watched my grandfather suffer with emphazema for years. There is nothing worth risking your lungs over.

If trend it that great pony up for the test. If you sell here meet our certifications don't tell us how great they are in Europe.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I bought my Trend for $235 shipped. I figured with my DC right there at the lathe and the Air Cleaner I purchased that hangs from the ceiling, and the Trend I would say with those it pretty much takes care of the dust situation especially my breathing dust and dust settling all over the shop. I was stupid when I started turning and just used the Wal-Mart dust masks thinking I was fine. I got a case of what my doctor called dust pneumonia. Scared me to death especially when he said it could easily turn into emphysema. After much discussion on here with several people I went with the Trend. That was my choice. Anyway Chris may have gotten a bad unit and should see if he can either return it for another to try or return it and get his money back.

So IMHO I think the best thing is use what you feel comfortable with but use something. Paper dust masks don't cut it. The Trend is neither 100% effecient or certified. Do I feel safe wearing it yes. Will I continue to wear it, you bet. After sanding a couple of boxes and maybe a couple of bowls at least when I go to the house now and blow my nose I don't make paste.

[Ed Scolforo]

Charles, The fact that the Airstream has a built in hard hat is one of the main reasons I chose the Trend instead. In my workshop I don't anticipate any falling steel girders etc. to bonk me in the head, so I couldn't see the need for the extra weight and inconvenience of a hard hat. FYI, the Trend also comes with a airflow tester. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.


Hi Chris,

Appologise to the wife and return it if you don't like it! If you don't like it you won't use it. Why use safety equipment that needs tweaked to make you happy? One trip to the ER will more than offset the cost difference.

Try an Airstream and you will never look back.

An OSHA approved hard hat has prevented serious injury and possible death more than once when I was building steel storage tanks. If that bar had hit you in the head the trend is useless! It cannot be attached to a hard hat. I asked when researching these systems.

I have extream allergies to grass and the 3M allows me to do yard work and work comfortably in the shop.

3M gives you great battery life and the weight of the battery is on your belt not your neck. I fish the wire from the helmet down through my search so there is no chance of it getting tangled in the lathe.

3M also includes a tester to judge if the airflow is adequate or if the filter needs changed.

I could not make sense of the data available on the trend the people from trend were less than helpful.

I was told by a vendor they don't NIOSH certs because they don't want to pay for the test.

I went with 3M for the hard hat, certs., reputation, and a long standing dealer repersentation.

Very happy customer, no relationship with 3M

Watched my grandfather suffer with emphazema for years. There is nothing worth risking your lungs over.

If trend it that great pony up for the test. If you sell here meet our certifications don't tell us how great they are in Europe.

[Chris Barton]

Chris, it seems the battery system has always been an issue with
the airshield but I knew that before I got mine from research here
& other forums, I had decided before hand to build my own Mo-better
battery system for very little money. Now I have the 2 original & 2 home
made batteries that last quite awhile. If you decide to go that route
here's a link to a pdf article on how to build your own, including where
to buy parts. I found this article here or another forum can't remember
where so I uploaded it to my clubs site and put it under Articles.
http://www.stwt.org/Pdf%20files/100_-_Airshield_Battery_Pack.pdf

Sorry about the Beall! I have mine on a 1700 rpm motor off the lathe.

Hi Mike,

Great post and your link gave me some ideas. Since SWMBW gave me this unit and I plan to keep it I looked for some 3.6v Li-ion batteries and found a really close match; a 3.7v, 2200mAh Li-ion battery: http://www.batteryjunction.com/186502200pcb.html complete with solder tabs and a smart charger: http://www.batteryjunction.com/unsmchforlib.html which I will order and try out with the system. This is cheaper than the replacement batteries and much smaller. I can get the power adapter from Radio Shack as per your link. I will post pictures once I have these in place. I plan to buy 4 of the Li-ion batteries and can sequentially charge them or create a charging station and external plug for the Airshield. Thanks again for your input.

[Barry Stratton]

Here's a real simple...possibly stupid.....question.......

After a long turning/sanding session, how much "dust" is inside a Trend facemask??????

I know how much I find inside my NIOSH approved face filter thingie bought at Ace Hardware, but am curious how much is inside the Trend...or Triton or others for that matter...... If there isn't any (and a wipe with a lightly damp cloth will show it), then it must work pretty good......

[David Walser]

Barry,

The only dust I find inside my Triton is from my finger prints where I open up the face mask. I'm sure, in theory, you could construct a fact pattern that would cause the Triton to fail. In practice, it works. I no longer have that fine coating of dust inside my nostrils and along the back of my throat. I come into the house with a thick coating of dust on the outside of me (where I couldn't reach with the compressed air blow gun), but I don't have a lot of the stuff inside of me.

[Jim Ketron]

Actually, I can add a third concern, and that revolves around the issue you raised about holding a good seal. I don't have a Trend handy So I can't take actual measurements, but I would estimate that with the Trend you have somewhere in the ball park of 30" of seal, whereas with the respirator I use it's more like 12". So the Trend has around 2.5 times as much area in which there is a possibility for a gap. It seems that the airflow should be overwhelmingly greater to compensate for this.

Finally, again since I don't have a Trend I don't know what material it uses for a seal, but my 3M 8233 masks have a rubber seal which seems to me like it improves as I wear it, since perspiration from my skin combines with the rubber seal. And, the mask can be custom fitted to my face, which I am almost sure the Trend cannot say foir itself.

Mark the Trend does not work like what you are thinking, it does not seal completely off, It has gaps for the Air to escape out. this is a pressure unit, I would find it hard for the dust to get inside around the seals because of the constant air pressure. Now getting in through the filters might be a different story, but it has 2 filters the first one catches most all the dust and the finer #2 filter usually stays pretty clean. NOTE : I clean my filters with a vacuum before each use!

[Bill Boehme]

Charles, The fact that the Airstream has a built in hard hat is one of the main reasons I chose the Trend instead. In my workshop I don't anticipate any falling steel girders etc. to bonk me in the head, so I couldn't see the need for the extra weight and inconvenience of a hard hat. FYI, the Trend also comes with a airflow tester. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

The weight of the Airstream headgear is only 1.9 pounds which I believe is somewhat less than the Trend since the batteries are mounted in the headgear. I will have to say that I don't even notice the weight of the Airstream because it is very light and so well balanced. Of course, the price weighed quite heavily on my billfold, but I got over it as soon as I started using the Airstream.

Bill

[Keith Burns]

Here's a real simple...possibly stupid.....question.......

After a long turning/sanding session, how much "dust" is inside a Trend facemask??????

I know how much I find inside my NIOSH approved face filter thingie bought at Ace Hardware, but am curious how much is inside the Trend...or Triton or others for that matter...... If there isn't any (and a wipe with a lightly damp cloth will show it), then it must work pretty good......

Great question Barry, and a great test, at least to me. Inside my Trend at least, there is none.

[James Duxbury]

Mr. Duxbury's post has been deleted because he has once again shamelessly promoted his own product (and dissed other products) in violation of our TOS.

Stop it, Jim. NOW.

Andy Hoyt
Moderator

Andy,
I am really sorry. I did not mean to break any rules. It is hard not to say something.
will not happen again.

[James Duxbury]

James, after making the comment that the Trend is junk and how much better and cheaper the XXXXX is, you should also point out that you are the inventor and stand to profit from it's sales.

I didn't mean to pormote. I thought you might like to know of another option.

[Ed Scolforo]

The weight of the Airstream headgear is only 1.9 pounds which I believe is somewhat less than the Trend since the batteries are mounted in the headgear. I will have to say that I don't even notice the weight of the Airstream because it is very light and so well balanced. Of course, the price weighed quite heavily on my billfold, but I got over it as soon as I started using the Airstream.

Bill
I'm just saying that the Airstream would be that much lighter yet, without the helmet. I can also imagine how much that plastic must add to the "sweat factor", especially for guys who are "hair challanged":D .

[Chris Barton]

Today I did a bit more investigation between glue drying on other projects and have some new pictures and observations. First picture shows the battery pack from one side opened and comparing a Duracell NiMH battery (with nearly 3x the mAh rating) as compared to the Trend batteries. I can buy the Duracells for about $1/ea at any number of local retailers. Figuring that the battery pack (plastic battery holder) and plug are worth a buck each then, the real costs for the manufacturer is probably less than $5 for the unit which sells for $40. The Airshield does move air and this is evidenced by the second picture showing the filters after 5 hours of continuous use. Unfortunately, there is also plenty of dust residue inside the mask. I tried to capture this in the third picture but, I'm not sure it really shows up. Finally, I did check the air flow using the included Burdon tube and with a completely charged battery it pulls the specified flow rate (small red ball at the line at top of tube; last picture). I also ran what I will call the "snot test" (I'll spare you the picture) and there was no obvious dust contained within.

[Jim Becker]

Chris, the only time I've found "noticable" dust in mine was after it sat for awhile unused and static attracted it to the inside plastic. I do agree that the battery arrangement is cumbersome...someone somehwere posted a retrofit not long ago that used the off-the-shelf batteries as an alternative to the expensive OEM packs.

[Bill Boehme]

I'm just saying that the Airstream would be that much lighter yet, without the helmet. I can also imagine how much that plastic must add to the "sweat factor", especially for guys who are "hair challanged":D .

Ed,

First off, I think that I meet the criteria for "hair challenged" if you are referring to "chrome dome syndrome". The really good news about the Airstream is that it has a very high volume air flow -- 10 CFM. I compared notes with a friend who bought the Triton at about the same time that I got the Airstream and he felt that he was sweating more while wearing the Triton as opposed to nothing except a face shield. With the nice breeze across the face on the Airstream (OK, I know that I am getting breezy ........) I definiately have not felt stuffy while wearing it -- It actually feels significantly cooler than not wearing anything other than a face shield.

Bill

[Bill Boehme]

......... I also ran what I will call the "snot test" (I'll spare you the picture) and there was no obvious dust contained within.

OK, you are bordering on TMI (too much information), Chris. Thanks for not taking a picture and I am sure that the picture police will overlook this transgression.

One question -- could you smell the wood that you were turning? I was somewhat surprised to discover that I can't even smell the very aromatic woods when using the Airstream. I sort of miss that, but on the other hand it is a pretty good indicator of how well the filter is working.

Bill

[Chris Barton]

Hi Bill,

Yes I could smell the wood, E. I. Rosewood. When I was a postdoctoral fellow I had to learn to do different histological techniques and one of the first things I learned was that if I could smell the reagents, my respirator was not working properly. I wouldn't try to hold this face shield to those kinds of standards since there are so many obvious places that don't form a positive pressure seal. And, thanks for letting me pass on the ST pictures:D .

[Rob Bourgeois]

Hi Bill,

Yes I could smell the wood, E. I. Rosewood. When I was a postdoctoral fellow I had to learn to do different histological techniques and one of the first things I learned was that if I could smell the reagents, my respirator was not working properly. I wouldn't try to hold this face shield to those kinds of standards since there are so many obvious places that don't form a positive pressure seal. And, thanks for letting me pass on the ST pictures:D .

The differences in a reagent worthy respirator and a particulate filter should be obvious to you if you have a PhD. I dont owe a trend so I dont have a opinion but to think you can use smell is not even suitable. Whats the micron size for smell???? Your respirator removed smell due to the carbon filters which is what it was designed to do.

[Chris Barton]

Rob,

Yes I do know the differences but, your assumption that the activated charcoal in these filters solely contain smells is not accurate. The receptors for smell are chemical in nature and many organic molecules are large enough to not pass through simple filters with very small openings. I don't want to infer Bill's point but, the two main issues in filtration in woodworking are antigenicity and filtrates being absorbed directly into the blood stream. Particles under about 0.3-5 microns can be directly absorbed and are the major precaution related to potential risks of prolonged exposure. If you can smell what you are working on then, quiet a bit of particulate matter is making it to your airways.

[Mark Cothren]

Rob,

Yes I do know the differences but, your assumption that the activated charcoal in these filters solely contain smells is not accurate. The receptors for smell are chemical in nature and many organic molecules are large enough to not pass through simple filters with very small openings. I don't want to infer Bill's point but, the two main issues in filtration in woodworking are antigenicity and filtrates being absorbed directly into the blood stream. Particles under about 0.3-5 microns can be directly absorbed and are the major precaution related to potential risks of prolonged exposure. If you can smell what you are working on then, quiet a bit of particulate matter is making it to your airways.

Not necessarily arguing here, but how does that apply to smelling something like Cedar? I can cut it in the shop, clean it up, and bring it inside the house - and the smell will nearly permeate the room. And I can leave Cedar shavings in the shop with it closed up for a week - plenty of time for the dust to settle - and that smell will dominate my shop. Am I still breathing potentially risky particles at that point?

What about fried chicken? I can smell it a mile away when my wife is cookin' it. Am I breathing particles of fried chicken? What about the roadkill skunk out on the highway?

I'm asking because I don't know. Does that "if you can smell it then you're breathing particles of it" apply to everything we smell?

[Bill Boehme]

........ If you can smell what you are working on then, quiet a bit of particulate matter is making it to your airways.

That was my belief, Chris. My statement about missing the smell of some of the aromatic woods that used to overwhelm my sinuses (I'll stop the illustration at this point without pictures) was somewhat facetious because I realized that smelling the wood meant that particles were not being captured by earlier masks that I have used.

I also would like to comment ($0.02) on statements from a number of turners in this discussion concerning checking the interior of the Trend or any other respirator for evidence of dust. I think that a problem in dealing with micron and sub-micron sized wood dust particles is that they don't necessarily settle out of the air the way that large particles do and also that these particles can't be seen by a simple visual inspection except in massive concentrations.

My solution to the dust problem may not be for everyone, but in my case, it was the only thing I saw that might offer me a chance to continue turning.

Bill

[Bill Boehme]

Not necessarily arguing here, but how does that apply to smelling something like Cedar? ............
I can tell you how it applies to me. I love the aroma of cedar -- I made a cedar blanket chest years ago for our bedroom, but when cutting it (sawing or turning), my head completely plugs up and I develop an extreme headache that lasts for many hours. I have not tried turning cedar since getting the Airstream because I am afraid that cedar dust in the shop will be a problem. I would hate to not be able to even enter my shop without wearing my Airstream all of the time. I like the Airstream, but not that much.

And, fried chicken ........ baaaaad. My cardiologist says to stay away from it unless I want another bypass operation (I'm still weighing my options on that). He didn't say anything about roadkill skunk, but then, I didn't ask. I think that I may have learned more than I want to know about your diet.

Bill

[Chris Barton]

Not necessarily arguing here, but how does that apply to smelling something like Cedar? I can cut it in the shop, clean it up, and bring it inside the house - and the smell will nearly permeate the room. And I can leave Cedar shavings in the shop with it closed up for a week - plenty of time for the dust to settle - and that smell will dominate my shop. Am I still breathing potentially risky particles at that point?

What about fried chicken? I can smell it a mile away when my wife is cookin' it. Am I breathing particles of fried chicken? What about the roadkill skunk out on the highway?

I'm asking because I don't know. Does that "if you can smell it then you're breathing particles of it" apply to everything we smell?

Indeed Mark! When you smell anything you are actually inhaling volitile molecules of what ever is producing the smell. Additionally, your sense of smell becomes acclimated to odors over time so that, even though you can't smell something any longer doesn't mean that it isn't continuing to release these molecules.

[Brian McInturff]

And to add ontoi Chris explanation this is why you should never turn Spalted wood without good protection. The fungus can from the wood can have chronic effect. Same with exotics. There is also studies being done on the longterm affect of pesticides/herbicides and there relation to industry today. You do have to be careful of where the trees come from. I've excavated roots here at work that I thought would be great for turning, until I realized they were totally saturated with Benzene and TCE at over 1100ppm(Parts Per Million). Not something I want to bring into the shop although I did think about experimenting with them and see if I could get a piece to combust while turning it on the lathe. That thought only lasted a few minutes until I chickened out.

Mark,
I need to come and visit you. It's been soooo looong since I've had good fried chicken. My wife won't cook it or eat it. I sure do miss it.

Brian

[Dennis Peacock]

Here's my take on all this.

Build your own battery pack and smile while you use it.
Effective at what I want it for? Sure.
Is it perfect? Nope.
Remember, woodworkers have been working with wood for thousands of years. Filtration for breathing while working with wood isn't that old and is still being refined as the industry matures.

Think about this for a minute. We often times breathe worse air outside our shops than what's inside them. We house chemicals in our homes that while not overly concentrated, are labeled extremely volatile and deadly. What about the exhaust gases we breathe while going to and from work? Formaldehyde from the new carpet, plywood, or particle board?

Come on guys. It's all about woodworking. This isn't a science class. If you don't find a respirator that suites your needs, then maybe it's time you designed about manufactured one that all of us could afford. :D

Now...let's all settle down a bit and get back to something we love to do: Woodturning. :D

[Mark Pruitt]

Dennis,
I agree completely that there are many substances we come into regular contact with, that have the potential to harm us every bit as much or worse than the dust we create. There also seems to be a far more widespread manifestation of pulmonary diseases today that cannot be attributed simply to population growth. Working in a hospital, I see the worst of it so I will admit that it does indeed color my perspective.

I also want to say that this entire thread (except for one incident which Andy took care of quickly) has been an example of civility and respect while discussing different opinions on an important topic. Chris, Brian, Bill, and everyone else have carried out this discussion in a way that several bozos in Washington DC could learn from IMHO.

And dittos about getting back to woodturning...I wish I could. It's BORING when all you can do is read and talk and peck on a keyoard while waiting for your primary hand to heal from surgery! But you know....I have some spalted wood waiting for me and I am SO GLAD that Brian made the comment he just made. I needed to hear it!

Have a great day, and thanks for all you do!

Mark

[Keith Burns]

Hi John T., the Airshield is a present from my wife, I didn't buy it or I would have done better due dilligence. Barry and Mark, if I do decide to risk POing SWMBO, I will post it in the classified here and let bidders battle it out and hope you both will bid high and often!:p Corey, Ernie, Bill and others, This might have been an example of a defective day. Problem with the Beal and with the new toy, all while turning something for the local parish auction. But, I did manage to save the piece. As my sergeon collegues sometimes say, the patient died but, the operation was a success...;)

Chris, if you don't mind doing so, could you post this piece (the turning) in a new thread with information and more pictures?

[Mark Cothren]

I can tell you how it applies to me. I love the aroma of cedar -- I made a cedar blanket chest years ago for our bedroom, but when cutting it (sawing or turning), my head completely plugs up and I develop an extreme headache that lasts for many hours. I have not tried turning cedar since getting the Airstream because I am afraid that cedar dust in the shop will be a problem. I would hate to not be able to even enter my shop without wearing my Airstream all of the time. I like the Airstream, but not that much.

And, fried chicken ........ baaaaad. My cardiologist says to stay away from it unless I want another bypass operation (I'm still weighing my options on that). He didn't say anything about roadkill skunk, but then, I didn't ask. I think that I may have learned more than I want to know about your diet.

Bill

Maybe you're just trying to make a funny, but if not then I think you missed my point...

[Mark Cothren]

Okay, I guess maybe the point I was trying to make while asking questions to try and better understand is that our noses are designed by God to smell odors, right? So if you smell something you are breathing particles that will kill you, aren't we breathing in that type of thing every day when we smell anything?

I'm not disagreeing about wood dust being bad for ya, but the only way I can see to avoid smelling anything is to hold my breath...:)

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Ed,

I think the potential for injury and need for the added protection of the hard hat depends on what you turn. If you do larger bowls and or out of balance blanks I think there is a need for the protection a hard hat offers. In one of the trend supporting post they site someone that was hit in the trend's shield. What if they had been turned slightly or the blank had came off of the ceiling and back down on their head?

If you are running a chain saw the risk of a head injury is high.

Just my thoughts. I have been around too many people that have been hurt in various ways. I'm very libertarian on the use of safety equipment as long as you take the responsibilty for what happens and do not end up a burden on other for your actions. Use what you feel fits your needs.

[Bill Boehme]

Most of the things that you smell aren't partculate in nature, but are molecules and sometimes they are toxic. The vapors of many of the solvents that we use in our shops are toxic and that is why the container says to use in a well ventilated area and avoid breathing the fumes. And, I certainly don't like the idea of being stuck in rush hour traffic next to a vehicle with a defective catalytic converter, but I don't have an alternate to the atmosphere for my air supply.

My funny flopped, I'm afraid. I suppose that I mistakenly assumed that your chicken and skunk comments were in jest and I sincerely apologize for my lack of sensitivity.

Bill

[Mark Cothren]

My funny flopped, I'm afraid. I suppose that I mistakenly assumed that your chicken and skunk comments were in jest and I sincerely apologize for my lack of sensitivity.

Hey Bill, I'm not that fragile...;) I was being serious using kinda silly examples, I guess. What I'm trying to determine is what you answered - is everything that we smell harmful particles to our lungs?

[Rob Bourgeois]

NOPE....smell is molecular in nature....even if its on a particulate. The stuff that gets in your lungs to cause damage in the typical wood working dust mode has to be too large to enter your blood stream. Most "smell" molecules can enter your blood stream...hence why mineral spirits damages brain and liver. IF it could enter your blood system it would be removed by the liver or cause damage there.

Think of it like this...sugar is a particle..BUT if you inhale it the molecules of sugar will enter your blood stream in your lungs. NOW some things are not particles...like the vapor of mineral spirits. They go right past the nose and enter your blood stream via lungs. Hydrogen sulfide is not a particulate but you can smell it.

THEREFORE..if you can smell anything is not a good indication if your mask is holding back the particulates.

[Bill Boehme]

- is everything that we smell harmful particles to our lungs?

No way -- the aroma of hot oatmeal cookies, apple pie, and fresh baked bread are the essence of health second only to actually eating them.

Bill

[Joe Melton]

[quote=Chris Barton]Indeed Mark! When you smell anything you are actually inhaling volitile molecules of what ever is producing the smell. ...

Does that mean if I stop bathing, I will lose weight? That may be the solution to my latest resolution!
Joe

[Mark Cothren]

No way -- the aroma of hot oatmeal cookies, apple pie, and fresh baked bread are the essence of health second only to actually eating them.

Bill

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh... now you're speakin' a language I can understand...:D

[Bill Boehme]

Does that mean if I stop bathing, I will lose weight? That may be the solution to my latest resolution!
Joe

I don't know about losing weight, but it might cause you to lose friends.

Bill

[Corey Hallagan]

That's a pretty little piece Chris. I hope it does well at the auction.

Corey

[Jim Bell]

Another thing to consider. I own and use a Trend. I also use a Clearvue system as well as fans to pull air into and out of my shop. I live in Fl and what system (systems) I use with another at time depends on the temp and at times rainfall. Also what dust making work is being performed at any given time can cause another variable. Many times I feel no need for personal protection. At others it is absolutely necessary. At no time do I ever depend on just one system. Most of what is available and affordable to small shops are no more than toys in relation to industrial applications. Let the user beware. If a completely friendly environment is necessary better try coin collecting.:D

[Andy Hoyt]

Settle down boys.

Your posts have been removed from view, but not deleted.

One false move and I'll send some Moxie your way.

Andy Hoyt
Moderator

[Hilel Salomon]

Elsewhere, I posted a letter about airshield batteries. The original charger takes forever and the batteries get quite warm. The solution is simple and cheap. You can buy a 3 battery holder, very easily put a connector on it, then use three rechargeable batteries. If you use a smart charger and good batteries, you can get well over 16 hours on a pair of these. Cost would be as follows:
about 90 cents for holder, another 90 cents for connector. 10 cents for solder. The best batteries for anywhere from 3-5 dollars per; an excellent charger which charges A,AA, AAA, AAA batteries for about $18.

Gary Ratajczak was incredibly generous in writing a detailed article in pdf giving exact directions and also the names of places where to buy the items.
He has given me permission to post it:
http://woodworker.homestead.com/Reviews/100_-_Airshield_Battery_Pack.pdf
I've used his article and made many battery packs as have some of my friends. We're delighted. Good luck and thank Gary for his generosity.

[Joe Tonich]

Thanks Hilel,

Now THIS is stuff people can use.........mebbe you aught to give it a thread of it's own. :cool: