Escoulen Chuck Q's?

[Bob Opsitos]

I'm looking at getting one of the escoulen chucks so I can get further into multi-axis turning.

I did a multi-axis peice out of some walnut branch wood, by simply moving the location of the live center on the branch. Worked out really well and I'm really happy with the results. Felt alot like what I imagine carving to feel like if you have skill (which I don't). Peice is 1.5" max diameter by 6" long. I plan to make a base in which to mount it. Sorry about the poor pic, camera needs fixed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/ropsitos/WalnutMulti-AxisTurning003.jpg

Anyway,what I'm curious about is that there are two Escoulen chucks, a "standard" and a newer deluxe. The deluxe is billed as having more capacity than the standard though not by how much. The only specs I can find to suggested capacities is for the "standard" chuck from an older Craft Supplies USA catalog that lists 100mm diameter by 140mm long. That's like 4 x 4-1/2, smaller than the peice I just made.

The deluxe is more expensive and it's only offered in larger lathe spindle sizes than my lathe, 1-1/4" x 8TPI of the chuck vs 1" x8TPI for my lathe. I could get a $60 adapter and see how that works out. The deluxe also has some different capabilities, seen on Craft Supplies website.

Distilled down I've basically two questions:

Is the spindle adapter thing even worthwhile? Has anyone used one and gotten acceptable results vis a vis runout?

Does anyone have any experience with the standard escoulen chuck and it's capacities?

Thanks
Bob

[Gordon Seto]

Bob,

To answer the easy question first. You don't need a spindle adaptor.
Both chucks use Oneway chuck insert to fit your lathe. If you upgrade to a larger spindle size lathe, you just change out the insert to fit your lathe. If you have a mini lathe, forget about this chucks. They are not recommended to be used on a light weight lathe. I think that may be the reason why they don't list the 1" X 8 TPI size.

As to the size of the pieces each chuck can handle is very difficult to say. It depends on how much off center you set. The bigger the piece, the more difficulty you are going to encounter. The overhang of your tool over the tool rest sometimes limited how big a piece you can turn. Your lathe may shake also. It is always easier to do MA between centers. The advantage of a chuck is you can do boxes.

The deluxe won't replace the original in function.

The original chuck can only tilt the axis. It mainly chucks long grain. You can also get a faceplate as optional accessory, but the size should not be big.

The deluxe is a heavier chuck. Its major chucking is side grain faceplate method. It also comes with a screw center. It works better with side grain than end grain. You can use it to turn MA platters. Besides tilting the axis, it can also do off-set center turning.

May I know what lathe are you planing to use these chucks on. Do you have variable speed on your lathe? What is the min. speed of your lathe?

On MA chucks, you won't care about run outs. You are setting your chuck to a huge run out.

MA is never boring. You did a nice job on it.

Hope these help,

Gordon

[Mike Ramsey]

Bob, you're lucky you only need to fix your camera, in my case
I have to fix the opererator!

[Bob Opsitos]

Gordon, that's some good info there. Especially about the chucks having Oneway inserts. I suppose then if I got the deluxe the best bet would be to talk to Craft Supplies to see if they can provide me with an alternate insert, otherwise I can buy one from oneway.

My lathe is a Delta 46-715 14" swing, reeves drive variable speed. Low end is around 500 rpm. Swinging the peice I made, I was able to turn a couple ticks above that without issue. Maybe 800rpm or so?

http://media.ptg-online.com/media/dm/Products/Tools/Large/20021129200000_46-715_72dpi_200.jpg

From your description of the two chucks, and what I want to turn (mostly long grain items) it sounds as though the original might be better for me. I had wondered about the screw center on the deluxe and if it was aimed more at face work.

I understand your comment about capacity being related to the skew of the axis and such.

For the peice that I turned here, would that be well within the range of what the original could do?

If we assume a similar peice but scaled up, would 3 to 4 inches in diameter and maybe 8 to 9 inches long, be feasible in the original chuck? I want to be sure I can turn items in a reasonable scale to my eye.

thanks
bob

[John Timberlake]

I don't do a lot of off center turning, but have always done it between centers. Seems like it would be more stable than using an off center chuck. This vase is an example of turning between centers for the off center part, rechucking on center to turn a foot, and then finishing in a chuck on center for the base, top and inside.

54318

[Gordon Seto]

For the peice that I turned here, would that be well within the range of what the original could do?

If we assume a similar peice but scaled up, would 3 to 4 inches in diameter and maybe 8 to 9 inches long, be feasible in the original chuck? I want to be sure I can turn items in a reasonable scale to my eye.

Bob,

No doubt, turning MA between center is more secure than using a chuck. The advantages of using a chuck are:
Free up the tailstock end for you to hollow.
You can have thinner section in the middle. The pressue from tailstock would collapse the thin section.
Convenience.

There are a lot of factors affecting the size you can handle. The bigger the piece, the more challenging the turning is. The 1½" piece like you did shouldn't be a problem. But when you go to 3 ~ 4", the min. speed of 500 rpm on your lathe may be less than ideal.

If that is the scale of work you are interested in, here is a way for you to get some rough idea on how your lathe can handle off balance pieces before buying the chuck.

Get some roughly 14" long 3 x 3 and 4 x 4 SPF (spruce pin fir) squares from the big box store. (scaled up from your 1½ x 6) Put the opposite corners between centers. Don't round the piece first, because you want max. off centers. Start with the smaller piece first. Don't use a spur drive, use a dead center safe drive. You want the piece to slip just in case for safety reason.
Since your lathe starts at 500 rpm, I would suggest you start from 3/4" off center opposite side from each end, then gradually increase the off set. If your lathe has EVS, then start the lathe slow, gradually increase the speed till it vibrates, then back off a little bit. Since it is mostly interrupted cut before you get it round, the faster you can turn, the smoother the surface.

You will also find that getting a clean cut without chatter is also a challenge when the off set is large. The long overhang of your tool over the toolrest is working against you also.

Use caution when doing the experiment. Double check the clearance on the toolrest. Also tighten your toolrest and tailstock. Stand to your side when you turn on the lathe with your hand on the stop button. When it get loose from your lathe, you don't know which end hits you or kills you.

Gordon

[Gordon Seto]

John,

The fine example you gave is off-center work. The axis is not tilted. The hollowing portion of what you did is on center.

Without a chuck to free up the tail stock end, it is difficult to turn any real MA hollowing.

You can see the creativity of Escoulen's work:
http://www.escoulen.com/ang/pages/abook/ncp8.html http://www.escoulen.com/ang/pages/abook/ncp8.html


I have the chucks for several months, I think I may need several years just to scratch the surface.

Gordon

John, see you at the meeting tomorrow.

[Bob Opsitos]

I had looked through Escoulen's online gallery, which has alot of impressive peices, but I've no sense for the scale of them.

From what you are saying the original chuck is capable of potentially handling the size ranges I'm looking at but it's more a function of the lathe and it's capabilities? I'll give your test a try tonight and see what happens.

I do recognize the value of the chuck vs changing the position of the centers. The other place that I see the chuck as valuable is returning to a previous position. I could return to a position by realigning the holes between centers, but they had ovaled out some, so it never ran quite true. Also the hollowing is not going to be possible without the chuck unless I do some serious planning and cut a tenon that is in the same axis as the section I want to hollow. Then I could rechuck the tenon in my standard chuck and hollow away. I would expect some re-alignment issues with that method though.

By dead center safe drive, do you mean like the Oneway safe driver or a Steb Center? The peice I turned was with a Technatool 4 pronged spur center held in my superNova2 four jaw chuck.

Gordon, would you have an images of your MA peices that were done on the original chuck that you could share?

Thanks
bob

[Gordon Seto]

Bob,

I meant the Oneway safe drive. Mark Sfirri, another master in MA, said he quitted using any spur drive for over 10 years already. Mark is the one who turned those bent baseball bats at the Louisville Symposium. If the professionals still use the safe drive for safety reason, there is no reason for us to take the extra risk while learning.

Forget about returning to the previous off set position with the chuck. You can never do that; the markings on the chuck are not precise enough. You have to turn and finish a section before you change any chuck setting.

I got the chucks several months ago, I hardly scratched the surface what the potential of this chuck can do.

Escoulen (the inventor of these chucks) said it took him 5 years to fully explore the original chuck. He said he is still experimenting on the full potential of the new deluxe chuck.

Gordon

[Fred Ritter]

That's a nice looking piece Bob. I was looking at the Escoulen chuck but ending up buy the Sorby eccentric chuck. I saw Clive (the Sorby demo guy) at a woodworking demo and talked to him about it. He gave me a DVD and a brochure on it. It seemed a little more versatile to me than the Escoulen. That said, I've only had it for a few weeks and have barely had time to even mount it on the lathe, much less do anything significant with it. Good luck with your purchase.
-Fred

[Gordon Seto]

Fred,

There is one major difference between the Sorby and Escoulen; the Sorby needs to have the tailstock engaged all the time when you want to turn anything that is not parallel to the lathe axis. All the boxes in the Sorby example have openings vertical. Sorby uses a 6-side insert into a 12-side socket; therefore it is much easier to turn a symmetrical multi-side object.

The Escoulen chuck ball has 6 positions for 3 holding screws. Theoretically you can reposition them, but not as easy.

All three MA chucks have its own limitations, pros and cons.

The Escoulen chucks are designed around the ball (tilting the axis). The deluxe model with added off center capacity.

The Sorby was designed around the eccentric boss with an added ball socket.

They all do different things.

The picture is a proto type spoon I am toying with. It was completely turned on the lathe. I think you can't do this kind of turning on a Sorby chuck.

I am very new to this MA turning, but I am hooked. There are so many variables that would change the look of the finished project. This spoon is made out of SPF. It is cheap; I also find they are very unforgiving material to turn. If I don't have problem with them, then most likely I won't have more problem with better wood.


Gordon

[Fred Ritter]

Thanks for the info Gordon. I'm new to the MA turning but find it fascinating. I'll report back when I've had some time to play with the Sorby chuck.