Festool Sandpaper - Confused

[Glen Blanchard]

Okay, I received my first Festool product for Christmas - a 5" ROS (I make only small stuff, so I think the 6" would have been too big). I also got 3 boxes of Festool sandpaper as well. Apparantly Festool has different "families" of sandpaper with names (that at least for me) do not designate their intended use. As I was unable to find any information on the Festool website, I am hoping someone can clarify this for me a bit, and briefly explain the differrences in the paper - and which one is probably best suited for my needs.

Although I have plugged this little baby in, I have not used it yet. I am bracing myself for a ride down that slippery slope that everyone references when the word "Festool" is mentioned.

Seatbelts fastened.

[Paul Canaris]

I use the Rubin for bare wood sanding. I have a few finer grits in Brilliant for intermediate sanding of finshes.

Also, if your using the smaller sander with a vacuum, set the vacuum to it's lowest setting, or the sander may stutter over the surface.

[Dave Falkenstein]

I copied this quote from an answer that Bob Marino gave in this SMC thread titled "Festool Sandpaper":

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=45951

"Question :
What type of sandpaper should I use?
Answer :
Rubin is recommended for bare wood, its coating prevents wood fibers from clogging. It can also be used for removing old paint. For finer grit paper than the 180 offered in Rubin, use Brilliant. Never use Titan on bare wood.

Brilliant is recommended for paints and varnishes and for sanding between coats. It has an antistatic coating to prevent clogging. Brilliant may also be used on solid surfaces and plastics.

Titan is recommended for solid surfaces and auto painting. The stearate coating prevents clogging.

Saphir has a durable cloth backing and is ideal for removing old finishes, and can be used for grinding concrete products or metal.

Vlies 100 is for roughening, cleaning or degreasing. Vlies 280 and 800 is used for polishing solid surface.

Platin is for high gloss finishes."

For most woodworking projects use Brilliant or Rubin. Bob Marino, and several other Independent Sales Associates (ISA) - edit: dealers - will sell you broken packs of sandpaper, so you are not limited to the quantities or grit assortments offered by Festool. You can also buy Festool compatible sandpaper from Kiligspor, but the pricing is similar to Festool. Bob's web site:

http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/

Attach a shop vac to your sander for the best results. If you do not have the Festool vac, a Porter Cable vac hose will fit the Festool sanders, or a small Festool hose will fit standard shop vac fittings. Using dust extraction makes the sanding virtually dust-free, and makes the sandpaper last much longer.

[Bob Marino]

Bob Marino, and several other Independent Sales Associates (ISA) will sell you broken packs of sandpaper, so you are not limited to the quantities or grit assortments offered by Festool.
Small correction. There ain't no more Festool ISA's - that program is over. We are all now considered "dealers".;) As such, we can also stock tools.

Bob

[Dave Rudy]

Also on the Festool Users Group website is a file posted with explanations of different papers.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FestoolOwnersGroup/files/Tool%20and%20Accessory%20Information/

Click on abrasives 1 and 2


HTH

Dave

[Martin Shupe]

Hey Bob,

Why don't they make Rubin in 220? I like to sand to 220, and I use the Brilliant, but I think Rubin would work better.

I am sure I am not the only one who would buy Rubin in 220! Why don't you suggest they make some?

Thanks!

[Glen Blanchard]

Quoting Bob Marino.....

Rubin is recommended for bare wood, its coating prevents wood fibers from clogging. For finer grit paper than the 180 offered in Rubin, use Brilliant.



So if I understand this correctly, I should stick with Rubin for my woodworking projects and (as Rubin is not available in anything finer than 180 grit) only move to Brilliant above 180.

Is this correct?

From what I have seen though, Festool does not mention using Brilliant on wood.

[Bob Marino]

So if I understand this correctly, I should stick with Rubin for my woodworking projects and (as Rubin is not available in anything finer than 180 grit) only move to Brilliant above 180.

Is this correct?

From what I have seen though, Festool does not mention using Brilliant on wood.

Glen,

You sure can use Brilliant on bare wood, some people do so just that.
Bob

[Bob Marino]

Hey Bob,

Why don't they make Rubin in 220? I like to sand to 220, and I use the Brilliant, but I think Rubin would work better.

I am sure I am not the only one who would buy Rubin in 220! Why don't you suggest they make some?

Thanks!

Martin,

I assume that most people sand bare wood to no greater tha 180. Curious, why would you thhink that the Rubin would work better at 220?

Bob

[Marcus Carr]

Did I miss something? The prices on the Festool line seems very high. How would these compare to DeWalt or Craftsman tools?

Marcus

[Glen Blanchard]

Martin,

I assume that most people sand bare wood to no greater tha 180. Curious, why would you thhink that the Rubin would work better at 220?

Bob

Gosh, I always sand to 220 prior to applying a finish. I had assumed that this was pretty much a standard operating procedure.

[Glen Blanchard]

Did I miss something? The prices on the Festool line seems very high. How would these compare to DeWalt or Craftsman tools?

Marcus

Marcus - The Festool line is considered high end with many advanatages over other brands (dust extraction being one). I know my new Festool ROS is quieter and has LESS VIBRATION than my Porter Cable - I was sooooo tired of the vibration. Other, more seasoned Festool owners, will chime in here I am sure. Do a search for "Festool" - that should help you become acquainted with this, shall we say, cult.

[Jim Becker]

I assume that most people sand bare wood to no greater tha 180. Curious, why would you thhink that the Rubin would work better at 220?

When I'm using an oil finish (such as BLO and wax), I sand to at LEAST 220 if not higher. (But I'm not a Neander with "smoother-smooth" surfaces that don't require sanding)

[Martin Shupe]

Martin,

I assume that most people sand bare wood to no greater tha 180. Curious, why would you think that the Rubin would work better at 220?

Bob

You assumed wrong.

As far as Rubin working better at 220, I don't know, Bob, you are the manufacturer's rep, you tell me!:confused:

Festool says that Rubin is for bare wood. I want to sand bare wood to 220, so Festool should make Rubin in 220.

Festool says (correct me if I am wrong) that Brilliant 220 is better used on something besides bare wood.

If you are saying I only need to sand to 180, and not 220, that is another discussion. I am saying I want to sand to 220, and I am not the only one, and I'd like to see Rubin in 220.

If you make Rubin 220, it will sell.

The customer is always right!:eek:

Let me know when I can buy some Rubin 220 and I will.

[Dan Clark]

Did I miss something? The prices on the Festool line seems very high. How would these compare to DeWalt or Craftsman tools?

Marcus

Marcus,

I have some DeWalt and some OLD Craftsman tools. To be fair, both DeWalt and Craftsman make SOME tools that are pretty decent. I have a DeWalt D24000 wet saw and think it's pretty decent quality. I have the 18V Dewalt power tool set and have been reasonably happy with it. But, IMO...

In the overall pecking order, Festool produces extremely high quality tools. Generally they are at the top of the heap. Not fancy tools, mind you. Festool tools have the quality on the inside where it counts.

Next down in the pecking order would be Makita, Bosch, and maybe Milwaukee and Porter-Cable. Hitachi might fit in here also. Very good to excellent quality at a mid to higher-end price.

This group's quality varies widely. I have a Bosch 4410L miter saw and think it's excellent (so is the Makita LS1013). OTOH, some Bosch router bits and spade drill bits that I bought recently were barely above the junk level. I have two Hitachi nailers which are excellent and four PC nailers and staplers which are VERY good. PC makes a mixed bag too; some great tools and some not as good. My Makita belt sander is excellent, but a lower level model that I looked at in Lowes looked mediocre to me.

Below that in the middle of the pack are Dewalt tools. Good quality at a moderately high price. A key target for them in many tool categories is decontenting the tool while maintaining the price. My opinion of Dewalt has gone down severely in the last year. There are exceptions (like their Tile Saw), but I believe quality is dropping and I won't buy their tools any more.

Below that are the Ryobi's and Craftsman tools. Low price and widely varying quality. Mostly medium quality or lower.

Below that we have Black and Decker. 'Nuff said about them.

I've had VERY bad luck with Ridgid tools (bought and returned their 18V tool kit and their 10" miter saw). But their spindle sander is supposed to be very good.

I'm being long-winded for a purpose. I've purchased a wide variety of brands. My opinion and position of each brand is based on the inherent quality of the brand. I've tried to form my opinion of the brand based on analysis and multiple experiences with tools of that brand. My positioning and comments above reflect that.

Generally speaking, Festool is at the top and is well worth the money. Lots of other brands cost way less and are NOT worth the money. Unfortunately, Dewalt and Craftsman generally fall into the second category.

Dan.

p.s., my Father was a Craftsman fanatic. I was brought up to believe in Craftsman tools. Most of my Craftsman tools are 30+ years old and some still work well. But that was then and not where Craftsman is today.

[Bob Marino]

You assumed wrong.

As far as Rubin working better at 220, I don't know, Bob, you are the manufacturer's rep, you tell me!:confused:

Festool says that Rubin is for bare wood. I want to sand bare wood to 220, so Festool should make Rubin in 220.

Festool says (correct me if I am wrong) that Brilliant 220 is better used on something besides bare wood.

If you are saying I only need to sand to 180, and not 220, that is another discussion. I am saying I want to sand to 220, and I am not the only one, and I'd like to see Rubin in 220.

If you make Rubin 220, it will sell.

The customer is always right!:eek:

Let me know when I can buy some Rubin 220 and I will.

Martin,


I happen to generally go to 220 myself, but I can tell you that many of my cabinet shop customers do not sand above 180 and they can't be easily convinced to do otherwise. They are both aluminum oxide papers and that alone gives more similarity than difference and since you are not removing much material at the 220 level, there is no need to have a heavier backed paper such as Rubin. I am guessing that's why Festool doesn't make Rubin in 220.
I also have used Brilliant on bare wood at the lower and mid grits without an issue.


Bob

Bob

[Rob Haddon]

Festool says that Rubin is engineered for bare wood, yet they don't make grits lower than 80 at the 125 size. Bob pointed out that Brilliant has lower grits than this in the 125 size which is great. But that leaves me with the creeping doubt that I am not using the "optimal" product when rough sanding. Festool makes lower Rubin grits in the 150 size, so obviously they thought there was some merit to it.
I'm going to order some Briliant 36 to use on my new RO125 and hope the results will speak louder than my doubts and confusion.

[Bob Marino]

Festool says that Rubin is engineered for bare wood, yet they don't make grits lower than 80 at the 125 size. Bob pointed out that Brilliant has lower grits than this in the 125 size which is great. But that leaves me with the creeping doubt that I am not using the "optimal" product when rough sanding. Festool makes lower Rubin grits in the 150 size, so obviously they thought there was some merit to it.
I'm going to order some Briliant 36 to use on my new RO125 and hope the results will speak louder than my doubts and confusion.

Rob,

For the 5" sanders Festool has a 50 grit in the Rubin. Brilliant starts at 40 grit.

If you need something extremely hd and aggressive, they have the Saphir line 24, 36, 50 and 80 grit. Soon they will be introducing a new line of papers called CRISTAL, in the 40, 60, 80,100 AND 120 grits.

Bob

[Dave Falkenstein]

..Soon they will be introducing a new line of papers called CRISTAL, in the 40, 60, 80,100 AND 120 grits.

Bob

Festool is now naming sandpaper after champagne??? Maybe Cristal means something different in German. Smile.

ps - I use Brilliant and Rubin interchangeably when sanding unfinished wood.

[Jim Becker]

Bob, it's important to differentiate between many "cabinetmakers" and folks who build fine furniture. (Martin is an example of the latter) The whole finishing process is very often quite different. Cabinet shops are focused on speed, efficiency, consistency and general overall quality and the finishes they typically use don't demand or even work well with sanding up above a certain point. Fine furniture makers, however, may use different techniques and have different expectations while preparing a piece for final finishing.
I sand end-grain to 320 or 400 sometimes when I'm going to oil a project. I go to 220 or 320 on flat surfaces for the same piece. It's a personal preference thing and I also like the Rubin better than the Brilliant.

[Bob Marino]

Bob, it's important to differentiate between many "cabinetmakers" and folks who build fine furniture. (Martin is an example of the latter) The whole finishing process is very often quite different. Cabinet shops are focused on speed, efficiency, consistency and general overall quality and the finishes they typically use don't demand or even work well with sanding up above a certain point. Fine furniture makers, however, may use different techniques and have different expectations while preparing a piece for final finishing.
I sand end-grain to 320 or 400 sometimes when I'm going to oil a project. I go to 220 or 320 on flat surfaces for the same piece. It's a personal preference thing and I also like the Rubin better than the Brilliant.

Jim,

Absolutely true!

Bob

[Martin Shupe]

Bob, Jim, et al...

I typically sand flat surfaces to 220, and, like Jim, edges get at least 320 or even 400. Like Jim said, this makes the BLO that I apply as a first coat go on more evenly. One of my idols, C. H. Becksvoort, IIRC, sands to 400 on the entire piece, then burnishes with steel wool prior to applying Tried and True Varnish Oil. Granted, that schedule may be unique to that particular product, but the result is silky smooth.

Jim, you are too kind, but thanks for the compliment. I consider myself an advanced amatuer. I am well read, but need lots more experience building pieces.

Perhaps Bob used the term "cabinetmakers" because Festool, being high end, has previously been primarily sold to commercial shops. Perhaps as more hobbyists discover Festool, they will respond to customer demand and produce Rubin in grits such as 220 that some hobbyists prefer.

Well, for now, I'll keep using Brilliant for my 220, unless Festool decides to make Rubin in 220, then I would switch.

Edit: I see I was too slow and that Bob has already agreed with Jim.

[Matt Hyman]

Just an FYI, Fine Woodworking ran an article in Jan/Feb 2007 issue called "When to stop sanding?" where the author did some testing that led him to the conclusion that 150 was enough for film finishes, 220 for oil on non-blotchy wood and 400 for oil on blotchy wood (cherry).

[Rob Haddon]

Rob,

For the 5" sanders Festool has a 50 grit in the Rubin. Brilliant starts at 40 grit.

If you need something extremely hd and aggressive, they have the Saphir line 24, 36, 50 and 80 grit. Soon they will be introducing a new line of papers called CRISTAL, in the 40, 60, 80,100 AND 120 grits.

Bob
Ack! That's the second time you've told me that and I keep forgetting. Seems that folks use Rubin/Brilliant interchangably so I'll try the Brilliant 40 for rough sanding. It looks like the only difference between the two is the type of paper. Maybe if Rubin 24 and 40 come out in 125 mm I'll have a chance to compare.

As a side note, I'll share my first experience with the RO125 sander. I have this chunk of wood that I took from my Grandmother's basement before she passed away. It had been there for unknown decades. I've had it for about 6-7 years myself and never touched it. It has sentimental value so I've been saving it. I've always suspected it was walnut but now I'm not so sure. It's very rough sawn and covered with years of dust and dirt. Well, the first thing I did with the rotex was go at a portion of this board. My coarsest grit is Rubin 80 so I couldn't remove the deeper saw marks, but rest cleaned up nicely. I took it all the way up to Brilliant 320 and was amazed at the hidden treasure I had uncovered. Beautiful quilted grain that I never suspected was there and tiny worm holes. I was right to save it for a special project. Thanks Grandma! I should post a pic to see if someone can give a positive ID on the species.

Rob

[Jim Becker]

Perhaps as more hobbyists discover Festool, they will respond to customer demand and produce Rubin in grits such as 220 that some hobbyists prefer.

Hopefully, they will supply it in the recent future...along with the Centrotec format square drive bits I and many others suggested some time ago... :eek: ;) :o :p :) :D

[Martin Shupe]

Just an FYI, Fine Woodworking ran an article in Jan/Feb 2007 issue called "When to stop sanding?" where the author did some testing that led him to the conclusion that 150 was enough for film finishes, 220 for oil on non-blotchy wood and 400 for oil on blotchy wood (cherry).

Thanks Matt! I called them yesterday about my late issue. They said they make their labels 8 weeks in advance, and my resubscription check had arrived too late for bulk mailing. Should have mine in 10 days, but thanks for the heads up. Good info, and it supports the need for using 220 or even more.