Jointer Knife Styles - More Discussion

[glenn bradley]

I know we've beat this horse but as my 8" jointer piggy bank fattens up, the topic becomes more at the forefront of my thoughts.

Straight knives seem to do pretty well in the bake-off tests; sometimes better than spirals.
Spirals are supposed to do better on figured woods.
Tersa is expensive (???).
Dispoza-blade is not cheap either.
Esta provides changeability after initial setup.

So to get the party started; with the cost of spirals and Esta's, etc. maybe straight knives and a wide-belt sander to deal with the curlies is a solution for this hobbyist?

8" jointer with spirals is around $1100
8" jointer and drum or wide-belt sander is $1600 - $1800 and I'd have the sander for other tasks (uh-oh, my rationalization engine is kicking in).

Thoughts? Comments? Prejudices? Recommendations to "stop smokin' that stuff"?

[David Kauffman]

Just bought a 15" 4 post planer with a Shelix spiral. Havn't even fired it up yet, have to get the 700lb monster down a flight of stairs into my basement shop first. But I too am contemplating upgrading my 8" jointer to a Shelix head. About $400. I've been pouring over the posts last few weeks, must have read every SMC post regarding spirals vs blades etc. Popped on a few other forums and read up on them there also. The Shelix seems to come out on top MOST of the time for MOST situations. I currently have the dispoz-a-blade on this jointer, and like it, but the Shelix is pulling at me, expecially after seeing the one on my new planer. I gotta say, just from an aesthetic angle, it's a serious mean looking cutting system that looks like it means business.

[John Kain]

I can speak in terms of high-end quality.

On the Felder discussion board, most Felder owners would recommend sacrificing the 4-knife Felder Cutterhead for the 3-Knife Tersa cutterhead.

I think that says wonders about the performance and ease of blade change of the Tersa.

[Rick Lizek]

Straight knives are fine. Consider getting Wisconsin Knife Works as an option. Stock knives are not high quality. Slow feed rates work wonders on curly woods. Knife changing can be done in a matter of minutes with a dial indicator, button tip and practice.

I'd keep the straight knives in a jointer and go with the shelix in a planer to keep costs down. The idea is to skip face the board to flatten and use the planer to finish the job. I was most impressed with the shelix in seeing them plane end grain. Carbide insert knives last eight times longer than HSS and have four edges so do the math on that. Not as expensive in the long run as one might think.

Consider a stroke sander as well. Takes a bit more room but is a better option than a drum sander and cheaper than a widebelt. Lower power requirements so less expense in electrical upgrades. Plus you can go right to finishing on a stroke sander. Drum sanding requires random orbit sanding to remove drum marks. A widebelt with platen can got right to finishing. Stroke sander belts are a lot cheaper as well.

[Hans Braul]

My 2 cents:

Nevermind getting perfection off your planer OR your jointer. Get a really good hand plane. Sharpen the hell out of the blade, and voila! Perfection! Next thing you know you'll be a neander!

Just my 2 cents (and they're Canadian too!)

Hans

[glenn bradley]

I love the feel of hand planing but, a gimp-elbow takes all the joy out of it if it is anything other than small stuff. I envy you guys. Where my human machine is weak I have to rely on electron burners.

[Jim Becker]

Glenn, the good news is that there are so many ways to accomplish the task. Don't feel bad that your elbow precludes you from intense hand planing...you have options. A could centuries ago, you'd have to find a different vocation...

On the original topic, I think that Rick's idea is somewhat sound if need there is to be careful about the budget yet want the finish/capablity that spiral/helical brings. It's very rare that I "use" the surface on a face directly from the jointing process...once the board is flat, it goes through thicknessing and material is removed from both sides until the desired result is there. Part of this is to insure even moisture content, but it's also because the trip through the planer is "more controlled" than it is with the jointer due to the feed mechanism. The speed is consistent and the result is therefore more consistent. (And keep in mind that it's the same cutter head in my case since I use a J/P combo)

[glenn bradley]

Here again, the value of this forum for we folks new to the hobby. I suddenly realize that I am looking at the jointer differently. Achieving a flat surface is the main goal, not achieving a finished surface, per se. That is, flat enough to go through the planer or to finish by hand. Thanks one and all. I can now continue my pursuit from a more educated point of view.

[Garay Holland]

Glenn,
I'm in about the same boat. After reading a lot of threads here and elsewhere, I ordered a shelix head for my old Powermatic 221 planer. But, I am also looking to buy a new jointer and having the same debate with self! By by understanding, you can't make some jointer cuts (like rabbet) with the spiral heads so I am looking seriously toward the tersa. Would also welcome all thought!!

[Garay Holland]

opps! by = my

add in: I was raised with spoke shavers, draw knives, hand planes, bow saws, cross-cuts, etc. and greatly appreciate the feel and accomplishment of their use. However, today, my sholders and elbows are happy I gave up the framing hammer for the nail gun.

[Mark Singer]

I never expect a ready to go finish from a planer or jointer...It is really just part of the rough preparation of a piece... from this point I usually use handplanes , scrapers or sand to reach the final result. My current Jointer the MM Elite S with 4 knife Tersa head has allowed me to trust the jointed edge for glue up directly...
What is also true is the better the finish from the machine, the less handwork...if there is tearout you must remove it and that can be a bit of work...often the drum sander is the best choice before the handwork begins...I use both the drum sander and the jointer planner often...but, it is never the surface that is ready for finishing....handwork...that makes it look and feel handcrafted....unlike a machine your hands can respond to nuances in the grain, a small not, the rounding that an edge requires this is one of the rewards of woodworking and should not be avoided...

[JayStPeter]

I have a shelix head in my 8" jointer and plan to get one when I upgrade my planer. To be honest 90% of my decision was based on my dislike for adjusting knives. So, I'm sure I would also like an esta or dispos-a-blade system. I'm glad I got the shelix though. I no longer have to think about grain direction when feeding the wood. It just doesn't matter. That's a time and hassle saver that the other head designs don't provide. It sure is nice on boards where there are grain direction changes that would normally tear out.
There are some minor disadvantages to the shelix head, but I still consider it the best option. First, a nail or misfeed can actually shatter one or more of the inserts. The advantage is that you just replace the shattered insert and you're back in business. The downside is that pieces of carbide fly. I've done it twice, but it shouldn't happen that often. If I gave the descriptions of what I did to get there it would be embarassing. But the shattered carbide mostly went into the DC. The other disadvantage is that you supposedly can't use the rabbeting ledge. First, I don't know if this is true. Second, no big loss. I've used it once and have no real desire to do it again. But, I regularly joint pieces wider than the cutterhead and wind up with lips at the edge. No problems doing that, so I personally think doing rabbets would work fine.

[glenn bradley]

Thanks Mark. This fortifies what I think I learned from my recent education.

[Jake Helmboldt]

I keep seeing references to the tersa heads, but just what is it and why are they considered so good?

Jake

[Rick Lizek]

http://www.woodtechtooling.com/TERSA/TersaCutterSystem.html
Read this link. A google search will give you pretty much a good heads up on unfamiliar subjects. Tersa heads have been around for years in the industries and are just becoming known to the hobby folks.

[david eisaman]

hi go to wilke machinery
check out byrd cutter heads
only way to fly