Anyone have exp. building a barrel ceiling?

[Chris Pasko]

I have a renovation I am in the process of in Baltimore City and decided I would like to install a barrel ceiling in the kitchen. Its about 10' wide and maybe 17' long.

I started looking into it and I couldn't find anyone with pics online of the construction process. I was planning on cutting my arch out of 3/4" plywood and screwing them to the joists every 5'-6', then connecting them with 2x4's (running perpendicular to the joists). This seems it would be a very sturdy solution to the vault, however I would feel better with some reassurance. If I go through all of that, and an inspector tells me its no good I have to tear it down, that would stink!

Thanks ahead guys!

[George Robin]

Have you tried asking the inspector what he/she would like to see?

Often times, at elast around here, if you bring a drawing/sketch of what you want to do with some detail added for dimensional purposes to the inspector, they would be more helpful than if you just ask over the phone.

I have done this a couple of times on less detailed parts, just to make sure I was going to make to code, and the inspector was happy I did so.

Additionally, what you are proposing to do is not structural (menaing the only load it will be holding is itself). Therefore, it does not need to be built like a tank.

INMHO, you are heading in the right direction. I would make a couple of changed though.
1. attach the arches made from 3/4" ply to each rafter
2. use strapping instead of 2x material
3. if the plywood you are using has a lot of voids, I would screw a 2x backer to the ply to screw te strapping to.

HTH
George

[Jim Becker]

I would think you could construct the whole frame using plywood battens and plywood strips...It's only going to be supporting thinner bending drywall and isn't (shouldn't) be structural, to the best of my knowledge. George's idea to check with the inspector isn't a bad idea, either.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

You mean vaulted ?

[Jim Becker]

You mean vaulted ?

Technically, it's vaulted, Cliff, but a barrel vault is rounded... :D ...and very kewel, especially when used in just the right places.

[Lars Thomas]

This is the only way I would do it.
http://www.usg.com/navigate.do?resource=/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/resources/builders/Throw_a_Curve-Page.htm



Not your normal disclaimer: I have a friend that works for USG.

[Roger Everett]

Chris:
The way you describe is pretty much the same way I've done it on a couple construction jobs, only we did double up the ply to be 1 1/2" thick, but for what you're doing 1 layer would be fine, screw the 2x's instead of nails though.
Roger

[jud dinsmore]

chris,

check out

jlconline forums thread 3111


you can come up with more if you search the rough framing forum.

a word of caution, if you're not a contractor or someone in the building trades please respect this site by not registering and posting. the jlc forums are designed for professionals and not home owners or diy-ers. not to be rude, just respect this. the forums at fine homebuilding could also assist and they are designed for both pros and diy-ers. good luck.

jud

[Greg Funk]

Chris,

Here is how they framed our barrel vault. Looks similar to what you were originally describing.

Greg

[Chris Pasko]

George:
I thought about talking with them, but thats more of a self esteem builder for these inspectors. They are not very knowledgeable as one would think and inspector should be. At least not the inspectors I have dealt with.

Jim:

Correct, this will only support the weight of the drywall, completely none structural.

Lars:
Thanks, I did see those while researching, but I am a young guy that likes old fashioned ways =), that doesn't appeal to me much. Do you know what that costs by chance?

Roger:
Thanks, any pics by chance? I never nail, only recently have I started framing my houses with nails =), previous to that double 2.5 top and bottom on every stud hehe. Speed was not a concern obviously.

Jud:
Thanks for the link, I will look it up. I do understand where you are coming from however, I know what its like when DIY'ers get involved over their heads. Luckily I am in the building trade =).

Greg:

Fantastic, thats EXACTLY what I had in mind!

Thanks guys, as always I knew I would get the help needed here! I will post some pics when its up!

[Ben Grunow]

You are on the right track with the info provided so far but maybe alittle more for good measure.

Make a pattern for the plywood arches and cut them VERY carefully so they match perfectly. I would make them all and clamp in a stack and sand them with aggressive grit on belt sander until they are all the same. THen install the first and last and stretch a string at either end (TIGHT) and install the rest to it. (usually put string on 1/2" spacer then use that spacer when referencing the string that way no wood is resting on the string after it is installed-lessens chance for errors). Then screw 2x's and sheetrock. Last step is to post pics.

Good luck

Ben

[Chris Pasko]

chris,

check out

jlconline forums thread 3111


you can come up with more if you search the rough framing forum.

a word of caution, if you're not a contractor or someone in the building trades please respect this site by not registering and posting. the jlc forums are designed for professionals and not home owners or diy-ers. not to be rude, just respect this. the forums at fine homebuilding could also assist and they are designed for both pros and diy-ers. good luck.

jud

How do I search for this thread on the site? I put it in the search engine but its pulling nothing related, and I have never serached by thread number before.

Thanks.

[Jim Becker]

Chris, 'not familiar with that site, but try searching on "Barrel Vault" or other similar things related to your subject. I'm sorry, but the direct link couldn't stay intact due to our rules.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Chris Pasko]

Yeah, thats what I ended up doing. Wow, talk about a wealth of info, skill, and talent! Those guys are really good. Very inspirational (heh, kind of funny to talk about rough framing like that =)).

[Lars Thomas]

Chris, the USG solution varies by size of vault or dome, but the numbers I've heard are in the 70% range of stick construction and less install time.

[jud dinsmore]

chris,

i'm not sure what happened to that link i posted. it wasn't "tread number whatever" when i copied it into the body of my response.

you are correct, those guys are very good. if you're not familiar with the magazine you should check it out. geared for the professional builder/remodeler, it is what fine homebuilding use to be. i, of course, have no affiliation with the magazine.

jud

[Jim Becker]

Jud, the direct link was removed as direct links to forum sites are not allowed per the SMC TOS (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/terms.php). That is noted at the bottom of your original post.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Garay Holland]

Chris,
I can't add to the good threads you have already received except to share what we are presently doing in in a house we are building. We were after interior mass and wanted true plaster finish for walls and ceilings. For the ceilings, instead of drywall we used Durock (cement board)including curved ceilings. We finished with normal portland plaster for base and American Clay (american clay.com)for finish coat. During constructions we got a lot of "I didn't know you could bend that stuff that way" and now it's all oos and aws.

[Larry Fox]

Chris,
plaster finish for walls and ceilings. For the ceilings, instead of drywall

Garay beat me to it - I was actually going to suggest introducing plaster instead of drywall. While I have never built one myself from scratch, an old house I used to own had that type of ceiling in the second floor and I had to repair quite a bit of it. Cement board, Structolite and white-coat of lime plaster made a VERY nice job.

[Chris Pasko]

Thanks jud, I will subscribe to the mag. I bought a few articles over there last night =), they really are informative!

Garay, we actually thought of that. I never knew you could bend durock, as stiff as that stuff seems I am surprised it wouldnt break. I will have to give that a try!

[Garay Holland]

Thanks jud, I will subscribe to the mag. I bought a few articles over there last night =), they really are informative!

Garay, we actually thought of that. I never knew you could bend durock, as stiff as that stuff seems I am surprised it wouldnt break. I will have to give that a try!

The house we are building has a lot of arched doors, windows, entry ways, curved counters and ceilings. In almost all cases, we used Durock as the base. Some narrow pieces (12-16" wide) are on <2' radius. The largest/tightest bend is the outside base to a kitchen surround. We covered two 3' radius corners with a full 48" x 8' sheet. If you want details email me.

[Wes Bischel]

Chris,
Lars has pointed out a really good direction to explore. I designed these systems for 17 years, and know what they are capable of doing. I have seen and done installations both ways and would use the grid systems even today. (Don't work there anymore so materials wouldn't be at cost anymore:D )

For your application - a simple vault - a suspended system would be ideal. I understand staying with a known entity by using plywood though. Many contractors I worked with told me they would never use our system, or USG's. Some never have, but many more have switched over.
The big advantage of the suspended systems is the light weight and speed with which they can be installed - and the accuracy of the final framing.

A few links to consider:
http://www.armstrong.com/common/c2002/content/files/18886.pdf

http://www.armstrong.com/common/c2002/content/files/8558.pdf

http://www.armstrong.com/commceilingsna/article8536.html

Either way you go, a few things to consider off the top of my head.
- Get a decent laser - worth it's weight in gold.
- The more accurate your framing, the better the final results - kinda like painting.
- If going the plywood route, cut and belt sand as many of the curve sections as a stack (screw together) - consistency here is key.
- If using grid, build a fixture on a piece of ply or MDF and fit all the curved sections to it.

Just something else to consider. If you have any questions, give me a shout.
Good luck,
Wes

[Alan Trout]

I am a professional inspector in Texas and the way you described is the general way it is done around hear. The only thing I would suggest is to layer the sheetrock on the surface. Wet the paper(just a little damp) with a spray bottle and use at least 2 layers of 1/4 inch sheet rock screwed to the structure. It will give you a much smoother barrel vault. You can go with as many as 3 layers if you want or if code in your area requires a fire rating on the ceiling of a kitchen.

Good Luck

Alan