Buying lumber rough or already planed?? HELP

[Shannon Seelig]

HI there!

I have been reading a lot from you "seasoned" woodworkers and you all seem to have great information to help new people that want to start dabbling into the wonderful world of wood. Please take it easy on me with the simple questions that I'm about to ask. :o I figured this was a good place to start since no one knows who I am and I don't have to feel ashamed of the lack of knowledge and experience I have about woodworking.

I am starting to mess around with small projects ( coat racks, routered signs, fixing and adding to a childrens play kitchen set) using mostly pine from my local hardware store like the Home Depot and the midwest's Menards. I'm from Northeast Wisconsin by the way. I just have the minimal tools like a Tablesaw, a few routers, a belt sander, a spindle sander & bandsaw, NOTHING FANCY YET. I would like to buy some wood to keep on hand, however, I don't know how and where to buy lumber to get the best bang for my buck. I have been reading your Orange vs. Blue stores and feel bad about even going to those places to buy wood because of their quality. I don't want to get frustrated with their wood because it is bad quality and it its going to have poor results with the projects I would like to do. Is the planed wood from these department stores not a good buy for someone just starting out? Should I purchase wood from a lumber dealer? I have been hesitant to go to a lumber dealer for fear of not knowing what I want or what to ask for. I go to the department stores because I can give the sales people a "just looking around" if I don't know what I want AND usually the people that work there don't know too much either because they just came to work after highschool was done for the day. I dont have a planer or a jointer and those are on my wish lists. Are they needed for basic projects like childrens kitchen sets, toy shelves, and eventually a joined table top of some kind? Like I have said, I'm very very new. Any beginner tips and information is truly appreciated! Thank you.

[Fred Voorhees]

Shannon, purchasing your lumber at one of the box type stores is a monumental waste of money. You will pay an arm and a leg for it and in not a long period of time, the excess money you would have paid for it could buy you a planer and jointer. You will get the lumber surfaced and ready to go, but you pay dearly for it. You may want to investigate the quality of the sheet goods at your local warehouse stores such as Lowes and HD, but stay away from the lumber. Your choices are usually limited to oak, maple and poplar anyway.

Ask around at the local hardware stores or look in the yellow pages under lumber or sawmills. I have always preferred to purchase my stuff rough sawn and plain it down myself. I feel that I have more control over the final product that way. You have the tablesaw, that is the core of any shop. Most woodworkers would say that the planer and jointer are the two next logical purchases. With these three machines, you have the ability to purchase rough sawn wood and get much more lumber for your buck and you will also get a lot more satisfaction from bringing a project from the raw material to the final finish.

One other thing that I can add is to just simply come onto this forum and read, read, read. I know I did when I first found it. I immersed myself into the knowledge that can be learned from the experience of the vast sea of craftsman. It's inspiring.

["Jason Belous"]

I am by far not the most seasoned woodworker on this sight. Like yourself i stuck to the big stores in the beginning because it is what i knew. in the long run you are going to get better quality from the mills and lumber yards and a better selection, you will also get a better price if you buy rough sawn, keep in mind you will spend some time milling the boards. being in the north you should be able to find local guys that mill and dry lumber pretty cheap. i buy all my lumber from the u.p. because i can get it at a fraction of the cost, you will also get a better deal if you can find some local ww to buy more board foot. the price will go down. you can probalby by a jointer and a planer that will handle rough saw lumber with an investement of about $1600 for the two this will get you a decent 15" planer and a 6" jointer from most brands. either way you go, we all started out buying from the big orange devil, and at times still guilty.

[Shannon Seelig]

Thanks,

My wife's birthday comes up first and I told her to pick out something that she wants and then I can expect the same amount of cash towards a planer and a jointer. I do really want to get into woodworking as a hobby because the winter this year here stinks. I'm a fisherman and the ice has been no good so far so I'm reading and reading, and reading on here to get some good tips and info. thanks again,
Shannon

[Don Henthorn Smithville, TX]

If you are just starting out stay on the lookout for used machinery. If you find something that looks like a good buy ask here what to check for. You can get a lot more for your money by buying used and with a little help in purchasing it will work as good as the new stuff.

[Dan Oliphant]

Shannon, Don has given you a really good suggestion for equipment. I will add that while you are learning and making smaller projects, buy your lumber from another local woodworker. If your using 20/25 board feet (or less) of material on a given project offer to pay replacement cost and you should be fine. With this method you also acquaint yourself with other woodworkers but also aquire sources for information and maybe even the use of equipment you don't own yet.

[Shannon Seelig]

I just want to say thanks for all of your help and information. I appreciate the advice! I was a little hesitant to jump on here and post a message for fear of my lack of experience. I'm glad I did and you all have been great to the "Newguy". Now its time to sweet talk to the wife into giving me a bigger allowance. :D:o I can always pull my 6 year old son into the discussion and tell my wife how important it is for him and I to spend quality time together with wood projects ;) That could work.

If I run into any used equipment I'll will for sure seek help. What are your thoughts on Auctions for used equipment?

For the beginner such as myself, is a 6 inch jointer enough for small table top edge joining and for projects that are not that enormous? Or am I missing the boat as to what the purpose of a jointer is used for and how big I would need to go. I dont think I would have to go much bigger than a 6 inch to get started, but I could be wrong. I'm just doing these projects in a smaller section of my basement so room and space is a big factor.

Take me under your wings and help a new guy out! Any info would be great!
Thanks again everyone!
Shannon

[Mike Buelow]

I just want to say thanks for all of your help and information. I appreciate the advice! I was a little hesitant to jump on here and post a message for fear of my lack of experience. I'm glad I did and you all have been great to the "Newguy". Now its time to sweet talk to the wife into giving me a bigger allowance. :D:o I can always pull my 6 year old son into the discussion and tell my wife how important it is for him and I to spend quality time together with wood projects ;) That could work.

If I run into any used equipment I'll will for sure seek help. What are your thoughts on Auctions for used equipment?

For the beginner such as myself, is a 6 inch jointer enough for small table top edge joining and for projects that are not that enormous? Or am I missing the boat as to what the purpose of a jointer is used for and how big I would need to go. I dont think I would have to go much bigger than a 6 inch to get started, but I could be wrong. I'm just doing these projects in a smaller section of my basement so room and space is a big factor.

Take me under your wings and help a new guy out! Any info would be great!
Thanks again everyone!
Shannon
If you are in a corner of the basement one thing to consider with the jump to the planer/jointer lifestyle is that planing will make A LOT of dust. I would say that planing rough cut is the way to go long term, but if you are still doing small projects and getting to know yourself (as I certainly am), perhaps BORG plywood and edging with HW would be ok for now.

For instance I took about 24 bf of maple from 4/4 to 3/4 the other day. It resulted in me filling a 55gal drum liner bag about three quarters full of dust and chips. Unless you get a dust collection system in place (or constantly use [and empty] your shop vac) your wife will kick you out of the house.

Maybe this doesn't apply to you, but I just got done with living thru a big remodel and I don't want to go back to that active dust creation in the house. Just the idea of hauling that giant bag of dust up the stairs makes me sneeze.

[Ian Abraham]

Hi Shannon

First thing to buy is the planer.

Yes you will probably want both eventually, but there are other ways to joint your wood. Hand planes, routers, thickness planers and table saws can all be used if you have the patience / skill / some simple jigs

But if you have a planer you can buy rough sawn timber and use it.

I would suggest you look for a nice lunchbox planer, even the 'cheap n cheerfull' ones work OK, or a nicer one like a DeWalt.

6" jointers seem to be pretty easy to come by 2nd hand, and will do 99% of the jobs you need to do. For any larger boards, the planer sled or handplane skills you learned when you didn't have a jointer will still see you right:)

Cheers

Ian

[Jim Dunn]

My seasoning consists of a "dish of salt" (misread that in a cookie box one day the cookies didn't survive) I've been buying a small amount ot S3S material and still find that a trip thru the jointer and planer does wonders to my ability to make things square a plumb. Better quality wood can be purchased here locally that is just woodmizered. A little to alot cheaper too.

[Mike Parzych]

Shannon - I don't know how close you are to Neopit, but this is a place I'd like to make a road trip to sometimes. I'm assuming they have a retail aspect to the operation - think I read that somewhere.

http://www.mtewood.com/products.html

[Dave Falkenstein]

Like you, I am a home/hobby woodworker. I have a bit different perspective on rough vs planed materials. I have access to a couple of stores that sell many different varieties of hardwood at decent prices. I seldom buy more than 100 board feet of material for any one project. I buy S3S (planed and straight lined) material and use my planer to machine to the thickness I need. For me the process of machining rough material to size is boring and time consuming, and it produces tons of sawdust.

I have a cabinet saw with an excellent blade, and can rip material to width and get glue line edges with no problem. Therefore, I do not now own a jointer. I had one for a long time and sold it with the idea of upgrading it. However, buying S3S material has eliminated the need for a jointer for me.

I could not manage without a planer, and that would be my recommendation for your next tool. Wood Magazine recently did an evaluation of bench-top planers and they recommend the Dewalt or Delta 3 knife models.

[Shannon Seelig]

Hey Mike,

Thanks for the Neopit suggestion. I did a mapquest on Yahoo just to see and I'm about 35 to 40 miles away from there. That is not that far. I'm actually in Clintonville, Wi. I should call them once and see what is available. If I do, want some info?
Shannon

[Randy Johnson]

The advice on getting a planer and jointer is sound but in the mean time there may be another option.
On a few occasions I have been know to buy hardwood at both Lowe’s and Home Depot. It was always a piece of red oak that was simply beautiful, with nice tiger striping from one end to the other. Unlike a REAL lumber supplier that grades what they sell, the big box stores sell the good stuff for the same price as the average stuff. Seven bucks a BF is way too high for plain red oak and is even on the high side for fancy grain but I was willing to pay it because it was surfaced four sides and was way above average in figure.
Since I started woodworking I have bought over 99% of my hardwood from two sources. The first, a small operation close to home would surface plane, even plane to thickness, for a very slight increase in cost per BF. I think the first wood I bought from him was 2.50 a BF for red oak planed from slightly over 4/4 to 2/4.
The supplier that now has almost all my business (Wilhelm Lumber in Franklin County IN for those in the area) sells red oak at 2.10 a BF for 4/4 random width or 2.50 for 11 ½ + 4/4 rough cut. They will surface four sides with one side sanded for an additional $0.45 a board foot. It ain’t cheap, but it’s still less than half of what you would pay for wood that might not be as good at one of the big boxes. I would think that most small to medium sized operations would offer similar services.
The other plus to dealing with places that saw the lumber they sell is that the person you talk to will know at least as much as you do instead of not knowing the difference between pine and oak.

[David Kauffman]

Shannon, Don has given you a really good suggestion for equipment. I will add that while you are learning and making smaller projects, buy your lumber from another local woodworker. If your using 20/25 board feet (or less) of material on a given project offer to pay replacement cost and you should be fine. With this method you also acquaint yourself with other woodworkers but also aquire sources for information and maybe even the use of equipment you don't own yet.
In my opinion, Dan has hit the nail on the head. Search out other woodworkers in your area that have been there already. Reading a forum such as this one gets you far, but talking one on one, and looking around in somebody's shop... touching, asking questions on the fly... that's the real deal.

You don't say where you are from, but if you are in the SE Pennsylvania area, you are welcome at my shop. As for your wood question, I mill and dry my own wood, so rarely buy any. However, check out the local sawmills out away from the big city. Here in PA, if you're willing to drive a couple hours into the country, oak, cherry, walnut etc can be had for much less than retail lumber stores.

[Bryan Lord]

Hi Shannon and welcome to a wonderful hobby. Yes, winter is the time for doing things in the shop.

I started out with a tablesaw, planer, and jointer right off the bat and don't regret that decision. It is MUCH easier for the novice to work with flat and square wood. Most of what I've seen at the Borg doesn't meet that criteria (and yes on occasion I puchase from them). By the time you purchase 4/4 lumber from them and flatten it you will lose 1/8 to 1/4" in material thickness. Sometimes that's okay and other times it is not. I feel it is better to buy thicker stock and reduce it to thickness you need and it usually will cost far less than purchasing from HD/Lowes.

But, before purchasing a planer realize as someone stated that you will make chips far beyond what you would imagine. Filling a 35/55 gal drum on a project is very common when jointing and planing. A shop vac will not handle a planer! You will need a dust collector with a 4" hose to keep up. So there is another expense.

[Shannon Seelig]

When purchasing rough lumber, is it OK to have it planed right there at the lumber yard for the little extra more expense? Then you can do the fine planing and squaring down to desired size? Or should I just buy the rough lumber, plane it, joint it, and invest in the dust collector? Like I have stated I am very new to this and just trying to get the most information before I purchase anything. I am weighing all options at this point and seeing what you guys and gals think. I'm open to all suggestions!
Thanks again for all of your great help and suggestions,
I really appreciate IT

Shannon

*My wife's grandfather says that the most important thing to remember is: Be smarter than the wood...... Measure twice and cut once* :D

[Mike Parzych]

Shannon -

Absolutely...any info on the Menominee place would be much appreciated. They have lots of air-dried so at some point I'd like to go there for a "major haul."

[Dan Oliphant]

Shannon, sense this is to be a hobby, your not (or should not) be interested in how fast a project gets completed. To learn how to use your tools, hand and electric, take your time. My suggestion would be NOT to rely on the lumber yard to mill your stock. Work the wood yourself, learn the feel of wood, learn how it "works" with different hand tools. Learn about jigs and fixtures that will assist you in more easily completeling functions. Did you know that you can edge joint your stock with a router?

[Fred Voorhees]

Shannon, sense this is to be a hobby, your not (or should not) be interested in how fast a project gets completed. To learn how to use your tools, hand and electric, take your time. My suggestion would be NOT to rely on the lumber yard to mill your stock. Work the wood yourself, learn the feel of wood, learn how it "works" with different hand tools. Learn about jigs and fixtures that will assist you in more easily completeling functions. Did you know that you can edge joint your stock with a router?

Dan makes a great point - and one that I sometimes myself seem to get caught up in. First off, no one can ever stop learning something about this hobby. There is always room for improvement - or, just to hone your various skills. With that in mind, I agree with Dan that you must remember that for the vast majority of us, it's nothing more than an enjoyable hobby. Therefore, there really is no timetable to adhere to. Afterall, it isn't the end result that is the truly enjoyable, although it certainly is great to stand back and look at a completed project and admire your stuff. Most of the time, for me at least, it is the journey getting to the end - that is the most enjoyable part. And the journey there is what teaches you the finer points. You have to do it to learn it. Hence Dan's recommendation to plain down your own stuff instead of having it done for you. Get your hands on the wood. Experience its characteristics and idiosyncrasies at each stage of its path towards a complete project. Hey, at least that's my opinion.

[Mark Patoka]

Welcome Shannon,
I grew up and went to school literally down the road from you in New London. Lots of good advice you're getting here. Just my thoughts as I started out similar to your situation. I would avoid buying lumber from the home centers unless you absolutely have to or are only going to buy one or two boards. The cost per board foot is outrageous compared to find a dealer or mill.

I was very fortunate when I started building projects out of wood other than pine to have a lumber dealer next to my house in South Dakota that planed down all their hardwood so it was very easy to go shopping for just the right boards, take them home and start cutting to size. Didn't have to worry about a planer at that time. Their prices weren't excessive either.

After moving out to Virginia, the dealers that sold planed wood definitely got their price for it so I found a dealer that sold it rough and invested in a planer. Even though I could run the planer in the garage, after three years I got my dust collector because the planer will makes piles of sawdust. You'd be surprised at how fast the dust collector bags fill up.

Since I started selling some of my woodworking, I will buy that stock already planed to 7/8" because it's still cheaper than my time to process that lumber. My dealer also doesn't charge much more for it already planed.

Another consideration you have is your space. Remember, to joint or plane a 6' board requires at least 12' of space, 6' before the blade and 6' after, just like a table saw. Your basement space may limit what you can do.

Hope you find this info helpful. Either way, enjoy yourself and have fun making things!

[Keith Barkhau]

Shannon,

Below is a link to a website called woodfinder which lets you search for lumber (and other) suppliers in your area. I can't swear it will find good sources for you, but it helped me locate three good ones in my area (Chicagoland).

http://www.woodfinder.com/

As far as having millwork done for you at the lumberyard/mill, personally I have mine skip planed (7/8 or so for 4/4 stock, 1 1/16 for 5/4) and straight line ripped on one edge at the mill. This usually costs just 10 cents or so a board foot, which for me I consider a bargain. I do have a jointer and planer in my shop and I use both frequently, but I find having the millwork done speeds the process along for me. My planing is now just a couple of passes to get to final thickness, and the straight line rip often gives me a good enough edge (especially on shorter lengths) to go straight to the tablesaw without edge jointing first.

Once again this is just my approach and I don't want to knock anyone else's.

Regarding adding a planer and jointer to your shop, I'd have to second the earlier post saying go with the planer first if you can only afford one--there are several good ways to edge joint without a jointer. But for me personally I found that my ability to consistently mill flat and square stock improved greatly once i added a jointer. This probably says as much about my skill (or lack there of) as it does the usefullness of a jointer....

As far as what to buy, if you're looking for used, craigslist.com is a good place to look. If you're thinking new, you can't go wrong with the Dewalt planer mentioned above (its what I use), but for a couple of hundred less the current Ridgid (Home Depot brand) planer is really a very good planer for the money. My father has one and loves it, and it scored very well in a Fine Woodworking roundup a couple of months ago.

Good luck with your woodworking!

[stevo wis]

Shannon, The reason I plane my own is it comes out straight. I had a 6" jointer and 12" planer for many years and ran a lot of stock thru them.
I always plane the best face to about 60% clear, then plane to make it parallel. Joint one edge at 90 degrees, rip the other, then joint. Last cut the two ends. This will always give a perfectly square, parallel, piece of lumber.
There is a great woodworking dealer in Green Bay just off Oneida exit that has a ton of tools and a pretty good hardwood selection. There are also plenty of mills in the area. We also have a guild here in Madison, there may be one in you area.

Good luck. Stevo

[Tim Malyszko]

Here's my recent scenario because I was in the same situation as you:

Recently, I finally broke down and purchased a planer and jointer without the wife's permission. I was hoping to sneak them into the garage without her ever knowing the difference.

When she caught me, I showed her a return receipt for some s4s oak I had purchased at Lowe's to trim a few things out ($6/BF) and then showed her the canceled check for the rough oak, soft maple and cherry I purchased from another source and even she saw how the planer and jointer will pay for themselves so quickly. I was able to purchase 60 BF of select or better rough lumber for the same price as 25 BF of the Lowe's s4s lumber.

In other words, by buying the lumber rough and finishing it myself, I saved over $200 for the 60 BF I eventually needed, which alreay paid for 1/2 the Jointer price. Even my wife appreciated the benefits of buying rough and finishing myself.

Up until recently, I was not building all that much so purchasing s4s or s3s lumber was economical. Now that I have 2 big projects going on - cedar lined chest and patio furniture, which require nearly 200 bf of lumber - it doesn't make sense for me to buy finished lumber.

[Ken Close]

For instance I took about 24 bf of maple from 4/4 to 3/4 the other day. It resulted in me filling a 55gal drum liner bag about three quarters full of dust and chips. Unless you get a dust collection system in place (or constantly use [and empty] your shop vac) your wife will kick you out of the house.

This is a useful thread and I wanted to ask the following for clarification. As Mike (and others) have said, you generate a lot of "waste" in planing to thickness. Has anyone ever done a cost evaluation on the final board that is produced? What I mean is, you pay a lot for a finished board from the box stores. But in paying less for a 4/4 rough board, you wind up paying more per the finished piece. IOW, the waste costs something (as does the subjective value of electricity, amortization of planer and especially knives, and the carting of a 55 gal drum of sawdust up the stairs--:rolleyes: ). So, is the conclusion the same if you look at it from a dollars per finished board basis? (For the moment, disregarding the learning and "feel the wood" aspect that several others mentioned).

Thanks,
Ken

[Kirk Poore]

This is a useful thread and I wanted to ask the following for clarification. As Mike (and others) have said, you generate a lot of "waste" in planing to thickness. Has anyone ever done a cost evaluation on the final board that is produced? What I mean is, you pay a lot for a finished board from the box stores. But in paying less for a 4/4 rough board, you wind up paying more per the finished piece. IOW, the waste costs something (as does the subjective value of electricity, amortization of planer and especially knives, and the carting of a 55 gal drum of sawdust up the stairs--:rolleyes: ). So, is the conclusion the same if you look at it from a dollars per finished board basis? (For the moment, disregarding the learning and "feel the wood" aspect that several others mentioned).

Thanks,
Ken

Ken:

Yes, a lot of wood is wasted when you have to plane to thickness. But I've found the price difference more than makes up for it. For example, I build a lot of benches. Each takes about 4.5 bf of 3/4" oak and about 1.5 bf of 5/8" oak. I would need to buy 6 bf of 3/4" oak at about $4.50/bf or $27. Instead, I buy 8 bf of 4/4 roughsawn oak from a mill for $1.50, or $12. Also, I buy in much larger lots, so I don't have to go get it very often. Doing that with s4s boards is fine, but you do risk having them move on you due to moisture changes between when you bought and when you use them, so you'll still need to mill them down some.

Finally, when I buy wood I often don't have a specific project in mind. I know I need a lot of 3/4" oak, so I'll buy 4/4 roughsawn for that. Also, I use some 1" planks, so I'll buy 5/4 for those. But for 1/2" final thickness pieces, I'll resaw the 5/4 planks into two 5/8" planks, then joint & plane them down. Little waste there.

Kirk

[Michael Adelong]

Great conversation folks. Lots of good info. I started buying rough lumber fairly quickly as I bought a planer, jointer, and TS within 3 months of each other. One drawback is that you really can't tell (I guess it comes with experience - that I don't have yet) what the planed boards will look like when you're picking through a pile of rough cut. Sometimes you can tell, but the rough boards tend to get real dusty and diirty in the stacks and you sometimes can't see a whole lot. Most places don't mind if you handplane and spray down a little section of a board to take a peek at the color and figure, but you can't plane entire boards (or enough of them) while you are picking through the piles. You have to look for signs that something good is waiting under that dirty, rough, surface.

Yes, if you plane everything to the thickness you need, you will have tons of waste to deal with. This is a great excuse... er... reason... to buy another VERY useful tool - a bandsaw. After adding the BS to my shop, I started buying 8/4 as my standard size stock for everything (when practical and / or reasonable). I needed 1-1/2" square table legs. After ripping on the TS, I had 4 legs 1-5/8" x 2" in size. Before planing, I used the BS to take 3/8" off of the 2" sides of the legs. I was left with 4 legs 1-5/8" square, and 4 pieces 3/8" thick by 24" long. The 4 small pieces are on my small scrap shelf, but I have several other offcuts of similar size and species on the shelf as well. If I plane them to 1/4" thick, edge joint them, and glue them together, I will have a 6"x24"x1/4" panel. Two or 3 of these put together can be very useful. Flat panels for doors, drawer bottoms, jewelry boxes, dust shelves, and a few other uses come to mind.

The other advantage to buying all 8/4 stock is that you generally find wider boards when you go thicker than 4/4 (at least it seems that way to me ).

Most of my projects use 3/4" thick parts, and they often are needed in pairs. It's really nice to be able to get a decent grain match between the matching parts like you get when you cut 8/4 in half, and then plane (and saw if needed) to get matching boards.

Mike