Titebond - Liquid Hide Glue

[Tom Grice]

After reading all the recent discussion on woodworking glues, I am considering going to a hide glue for the grandfather clock I am building.

The only glue I've been able to find locally is Titebond Hide glue - I just wanted to see if anyone has had any good or bad experiences with this product before I jump in and use it on something I want to last for 100+ years.

Does this product compare to the traditional hide glues?

Thanks!

[Ernie Hobbs]

I had the same question a few months ago and I sent an email to to master of Federal Period Furniture- Rob Millard.

This is his response:
"Liquid hide glue is much like white and yellow glue, with maybe a bit longer open time. Hot hide glue on the other hand is completely different. It goes from sort of slick to sticky very quickly. This rapid change can be a curse or a blessing depending what you are trying to do. For veneering and rubbing on glue block (or knee returns on cabriole legs) that rapid and tenacious tack is great, for anything but the simplest of joints it is a problem. Once the glue gels, it has no adhesive properties. I used to use a lot of the liquid hide glue, but now I just add a little urea to my regular hot hide glue, and get the same results. Rob Millard"

You're right- you won't find hide glue at Lowes or Home Depot. However, if you go to Woodcraft or a store that caters to woodworkers, you shouldn't have a problem finding it.

[Mike Seals]

I did a lot of studdying on the hide glue and found some good info. Thats the route I'm taking. My turning point was from a post on another board buy an old wood woorker in the land of Auzz. Might be helpfull.

[Dan Forman]

Wood magazine had a review of various glues some time ago, and reported that Titebond hide glue was indeed a strong reliable glue for use on objects that won't get wet or damp. They said that the premixed was actually stronger and more consistent than the brew it yourself variety. It has a longer open time than PVA glues, and you can wipe off sqeeze out with a damp rag and it will not cause problems with finishing. It is also reversable in case the item needs repair in the future.

The article was interesting, though they didn't really include the hide glue in the formal test, which was just the major players in the PVA and Plyurethane fields. The hide glue was only mentioned in side bar.

I'm going to be trying some with my next few projects, but don't have any personal experience other than a quick test in which I joined a couple of scraps and got a very strong joint.

Dan

[Dave Anderson NH]

For indoor furniture in the normal rooms of a house, hot hide glue is great. among the big virtues that were missed by previous posters is the fact that it will take a stain or dye and a finish will go on right over it. It does require some adjustment in your technique because of the gel time. On the other hand, a good tight fitting joint doesn't have to be clamped after glueing. Now you know why you see so few clamps in the shops of 18th and early 19th century furniture and cabinetmakers, they were very rarely necessary. Just glue it up and set it aside for a few hours. Once you make the adjustment to hot hide glue, you will find it speeds up your work when you don't have to deal with waiting for the glue to cure before going on to the next step.

Woodcraft, Rockler, Woodworkers Supply, and Tools for Working Wood all carry the dry glue for making up your own hot hide glue. A $10 mini crock pot, a candy thermometer, a small glass jar for the glue, a brush, and a little water are you need to get started.

[Brad Olson]

If you are gong to buy hide glue make sure you buy it from someone who lists the gram strength and quality to make sure it is appropriate.

I have bought hide glue from Tools for Working wood, where the cost was quite reasonable, although I am not experienced enough with the glue to make any comment other than where to buy it.

[Mike Armstrong]

I got some Tite-Bond and used it once a couple years ago. I don't think it's dry yet. I'll never use the cold stuff again. After doing some reading and research, I started using the real stuff on intarisa projects - it can be a real PITA to glue together 200 pieces of various sizes and shapes :D. I've since used it on other kinds of projects. I get the 192gm granules from Patrick Edwards (he's local for me) - http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/gluepage.htm - and with a $10 electric burner from Big Lots, a glass jar in a Corning pot and a meat thermometer, I'm good to go. I keep the "leftovers" in the refridgerator. Now you can get it from him (and probably others) pre-mixed. I figure if it's good enough for him and Brian Boggs, . . .

Obviously, it's not as easy and grabbing a bottle and squeezing out some yellow stuff, but I like the stickiness, that it draws joints tighter as it sets, and that you can play a little bit with the viscosity and temp to adjust to the type of joints you're working on. I wouldn't use it exclusively, but it's just one more "tool" to use for certain projects. I think it'd be a good choice for something you expect to last 100 years.

Mike

[Al Willits]

Just wondering, years back when in high school I was on the work program and went to school half days and worked the other, for a short time I worked in a furniture shop with this old (then) guy and he used to have me glue chairs and stuff together.
We used a sort of brown stuff that was heated in a pot, I think each day he just turned the pot on and it was ready by the time I got there.
Could this have been Hide glue???

To bad the hiway came though, I enjoyed working with wood way back then.
Too bad I waited over 40 years to play with wood again..
Al

[Jim Becker]

Yes, Al...that was hyde glue.

[Jim DeLaney]

A variant that I like is "Old Brown Glue." It's liquid at about 80°F, and jelled much below that.

I've been using it for about six months, now, and find it very useful for laminations, veneers, and just general purpose use.

A google search will get you their website.

[Martin Shupe]

A variant that I like is "Old Brown Glue." It's liquid at about 80°F, and jelled much below that.

I've been using it for about six months, now, and find it very useful for laminations, veneers, and just general purpose use.

A google search will get you their website.

Jim and Mike....

I use Old Brown Glue as well. Expensive, but I'm worth it.:D Good glue, too.

[Dan Forman]

I feel comfortable in stating that Mike's experience with Titebond liquid not drying is the exception rather than the rule. I have found it worked fine for gluing canvas to boards for oil painting, and a few informal tests with scrap have been very successful as far as bonding strength. I have an older bottle with an expiration date of '02, and just now went down and glued a couple of scraps together for a test of that, will report back tomorrow with results.

It does require a minimum temp of 50*, clamp time of 30 min, and 24 hour cure time.

Dan

[Dennis Peacock]

The liquid hide glue works great. If it doesn't cure well, then it's old. I've had some that was almost 2 years old before and it still cured well. I like it a LOT and prefer it over any yellow glue. Get a glue spot on a board? No problem, Warm water and some decent rubbing and it comes right out. Good stuff and holds as well as yellow glue. :)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Don't ever buy hyde glue in any form other than flake.
Never Never ever

[Terry Flowers]

Why not cliff?? Other posters seemd to have good results with it.

Thanks,
Terry

[Mark Berenbrok]

I got my hide glue from Bjorn Industries in Charlotte NC about 12 years ago and am still using it. I use it for joints but not panel construction. The guy at Bjorn offered a wealth of information on the phone and provided alot of written info. A little urea added to the mix extends the glue up time. Using it isn't difficult as long as you have your ducks lined up and have done a dry assembly. You can use one of those small water heaters (the kind for boiling a cup of water at the office) and a mason jar for a glue pot.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Why not cliff?? Other posters seemd to have good results with it.

Thanks,
Terry

Well if you want a glue in a bottle get a modern one as they don't have to be damaged by processes and additives to boost shelf life.
Hyde glue is wonderful stuff if you mix it right from the best materials and don't mistrreat it by trying to keep it open too ling ot thin it too much etc.

That said I went on a pilgramage a long one to learn all I could about hyde glue. It's great stuff - if - if a lot of things.

A fair bit of really nice furniture has lasted three hundred years made with the stuff. However a vastly huge lot of the furniture made with it didn't last long at all.

So even under the best of circumstances it can be finiky.

I am unsure what a person would want hyder for unless it's either vineeer or glue blocks. In those apps it is somewhat better than most other glues but not the crap in the bottle please. They messed with it to boost shelf life and didn't do a good job.

If they made it like they make epoxy - building it from the molecule up it'd be a different thing altogether cause they'd have the opportunity to have engineered it from the ground up to have shelf life AND work correctly. On the other hand bottled hyde is a natural product the molecular structure of which you can't just shove a swizzle stick in stir some chemicals in and and expect to soup it up somehow AND get good results.

I submit that the people who are using bottled hyse and are happy with it have not had the opportunity to have compared it to well mage glue from flake and especially haven't had the chance to compare long term performance.

Of course it's a big world and there has just got to be someone who will say I'm wrong.
Whether they are right - - - - - -

[Dan Forman]

Cliff---Not to be argumentative, just searching for truth. Do you have any objective data to confirm your beliefs about the liquid hide glue? I find it rather attractive, but if you can show me any real world examples of why I should avoid it, I would be glad to know. By that I mean that a lot of times new things which take the mystery out of certain time tested techniques are looked upon with great skepticism by those who were brought up with the traditional way of doing things, whether or not there is any actual basis in fact for their concern. If you have such facts, please share them with us.

My understanding is that the liquid glues remove a lot of the "if's" you mentioned, providing on the whole a more consistent product. The Wood Magazine article actually found it to be much stronger than that which they mixed up for the test.

I will contribute my own bit of "scientific" analysis. The results of yesterdays test of Titebond liquid hide glue that was 3 years past expiration date were rather disappointing. I glued two pieces of scrap oak together, placed in a vise with moderate pressure for about an hour, allowed to cure 24 hours. My plan was to put them in the vise, and begin whacking with ever increasing force with a hammer until they seperated. They were two triangles, put together off axis, so that the points were not lined up, so that whacking the eposed point on the outside piece would seperate them if sufficient force were applied laterally.

Well, they seperated at the very first rather gentle whack, more of a nudge really. I will repeat the test with same pieces using fresher glue, and post that result. I don't know how old the newer bottle is, it doesn't have an expiration date, so maybe a brand new bottle is in order.

Dan

[Eddie Darby]

Hide glue from a bottle or from flakes is more than enough, when it comes to gluing wood, since the weakest link is the wood. Where you do find failures is when you have a joint that isn't perfect wood to wood contact, since hide glue has no gap fixing ability. This perfect wood to wood contact means that more time must be spent on seeing that the joints are perfect. Newer modern glues will exhibit some gap filling ability usually.

This web-page has instructions for use, plus a glue comparison chart, as well as another source to buy hide glue.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20002&cat=1,110,42965

To get the charts click on the blue "Tech".
To get the instructions click on the blue "Instr".

[Tom Francis]

What about liquid hide glue in the bottle for "rubbed joints?" I really like the idea of not having to load up a bunch of clamps, especially for gluing up a panel. I glued up a top for a cabinet several years ago (30+) and it's still fine today.

I'm sure that the hot glue would be better based on the comments I've read on this thread, but does anybody else have experience with the Titebond in the bottle using it on "rubbed" joints?

[J. Z. Guest]

I've read that hide glue doesn't hold up over time like modern glues. It's hard to tell though, since "over time" can mean 100 years, and we haven't had yellow glue or poly glue for that long. The main advantage listed in books is that joints can be repaired by heating them up.

I'd use polyurethane glue for things I want to last forever. I like it because it has just a bit of give in the joint rather than being super hard/brittle like yellow glues.

[Brandon Shew]

I've read that hide glue doesn't hold up over time like modern glues. It's hard to tell though, since "over time" can mean 100 years, and we haven't had yellow glue or poly glue for that long. The main advantage listed in books is that joints can be repaired by heating them up.

I've been looking into hide glues as well for the last factor that you mention - the ability to repair them. I'm wondering though if the liquid hide glues can be heated for repairs or not.


I'd use polyurethane glue for things I want to last forever. I like it because it has just a bit of give in the joint rather than being super hard/brittle like yellow glues.

Even polyurethane glues haven't been tested for the "over time" factor that you describe above. If you're making true heirloom quality furniture, I'd think that the ability to repair a joint 100 years down the line would be a plus. I'm somewhat averse to the poly glues solely on the basis of the mess that they make.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Nooooooooooooo! not the bottled stuff for a heirloom project. Use epoxy or the real stuff.

I was trying real hard to convince myself that the only glue worth using was hide. I worked at it for nearly a year and in the end I decided that:
1.) plain old titebond is like the best glue on the planet for most applications
2.) If I think I'll want to repair the joint later then epoxy is next best
but
3.) If I want absolutely waterproof and heat resistant then I'll use resourcinol (it's a PITA to work with).
And
4.) The only uses I have to hide are veneer ('cause it
doesn't bleed through and instrument fret-boards ('cause the glue softens easily with a little heat).

[Curt Harms]

I've been looking into hide glues as well for the last factor that you mention - the ability to repair them. I'm wondering though if the liquid hide glues can be heated for repairs or not.

I haven't tried heating but wetting the joint loosens it just fine.



Even polyurethane glues haven't been tested for the "over time" factor that you describe above. If you're making true heirloom quality furniture, I'd think that the ability to repair a joint 100 years down the line would be a plus. I'm somewhat averse to the poly glues solely on the basis of the mess that they make.

Bob Smalser did a writeup about reversibility and repairability a while back. I don't expect to see him in any titebond ads anytime soon;)

[Eddie Darby]

I've read that hide glue doesn't hold up over time like modern glues. It's hard to tell though, since "over time" can mean 100 years, and we haven't had yellow glue or poly glue for that long. The main advantage listed in books is that joints can be repaired by heating them up.

I'd use polyurethane glue for things I want to last forever. I like it because it has just a bit of give in the joint rather than being super hard/brittle like yellow glues.

They have pulled out of ancient Egyptian tombs wooden objects that were glued together with hide glue, so I would think that they have a weee bit of a head start over modern adhesives when it comes to a proven track record.

Most museums have musical instruments that are centuries old that were made with hide glue.

[Jeff Bratt]

In tests performed by FWW magazine recently (Aug 2007) the hot and liquid hide glues had almost identical rankings. While the PVA glues and epoxy were stronger, hide glues still produced joints that were generally stronger than the wood. "Old Brown Glue" was the liquid hide glue that was tested.

Benefits of hide glue (hot or cold):
reversible - heat or water can be used to disassemble joints
stainable - squeeze-out not as much of a problem
repairable - glue will adhere to itself, can be used to repair joints in older furniture, made in the pre-PVA era (before ~1940) when almost all wood glue was hide glue
better creep resistance than PVA glues

Concerns about hide glue:
not water or heat resistant
longer clamp time (for liquid/cold type)
shorter shelf life (for liquid/cold type)

Comments about other posts in this thread:
- PVA glues and hide glues can all be used to make "rub joints"
- The "gram strength" ratings of the glue flakes does NOT have anything to do with the strength of the glue joints.
- PVA glues are not "super hard or brittle" - they are more resistant to shock and less resistant to creep than other glues.

[Jeff Wright]

The April '08 issue #197 of FWW features an article on using hyde glues.

[Eric Gustafson]

Is it hide glue or hyde glue???

[mike holden]

Eric,
as to "hide" or "hyde" that depends, both are acceptable. In the 1800's spelling was not a rigid as it is today (or not - texting, acronyms, etc.). Ever see a copy of the Declaration of Independence? Who was it said that "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" (grin) In any case, both spellings were used in historical writing, so take your pick.
Mike

[Dan O'Sullivan]

Terry
You haven't look far enough. Check out Old Brown glue from Pat Edwards. This is freshly made hide glue with just the right amount of urea in it to make it set up SLOWLY. I use it a bunch. To make the viscosity thinner, I put it in a double boiler and spread it in a thin layer. Truthfully, I just finished hammer veneering a surface 14" wide and 36" long with Old brown glue. I am amazed how well it tacks. Not one bubble. If I have a loose spot I use my clothes iron and reactivate the glue and most times I just put a pad and clamp it to bring the bubble down. Amazing.

I love hot hide(192grm) with a little urea in it for just about everything I glue up. The stuff is great. Don't be fooled by all this rocket science about glue. Its not complicated after you play with it a little.

dan

[george wilson]

Hide is the correct spelling in this time. Do you call animal hides hydes?

Find me a bottle or package of hide glue that calls itself HYDE,and I'll accept it as o.k..Unless it's some glue trying to be olde timey,or cute.) :)

[David Gendron]

Some more info here; http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/gluearticle.htm
I have used Old Brown glue with success!

[Brent Ring]

I used the Titebond Liquid on a Shaker style desk i built out of some 100+ year old pine reclaimed from an old hospital demolition. It works well and has held well and I love the clean up. Shellac was all that desk got and it turned out nicely.

I will use if again for indoor, low stress projects. I have a couple of shaker end tables to build over the upcoming summer. I expect to use it on those projects.

[george wilson]

Shellac truly does not retain its gloss. Seed lac does. That's the truth.

the poor properties of shellac were discussed in a 17th.C. treatise I have read,but cannot now recall who wrote it. It mentions quite clearly that shellac will not retain a gloss.

Over the years I have seen projects I made with a high finish turn flat in only a handful of years. Depends upon what gloss you want ultimately.

Try some Siam seedlac. It is a crude shellac that has not been boiled and refined. Lots of crud and little bits of trash in it. Dissolve it and carefully dip your brush into the top layer so you don't disturb the trash. It's a pain to try to filter. I just use it as described. A tool cabinet that I finished with seedlac over 20 years ago is still just as bright as new.

It has a lovely amber color,that might or might not be wanted,so choose it if you want the color.

I think refined shellacs lose some components in the refining.

[Loren Hedahl]

I use it frequently for piano repair and rebuilding.

As mentioned already, it comes in dried flake form and must be mixed with water. Normally it should set for a time, perhaps overnight, before use. Once mixed it has a lifespan of a few days-to a couple of weeks before it begins to smell bad and grow a lot of mold.

At room temperature it jells, then re-liquefies when heated, about 140 deg F. is good. Don't overheat or it will lose strength.

For assembling small pieces, such as piano whippens and other action parts, it is ideal due to the gelling as it cools, i.e., no clamps needed. It can be applied with a small bamboo skewer stick. It also works beautifully for gluing on the small felt pieces throughout the piano.

Since there are a lot of common parts throughout the piano industry, the concept of "replaceable parts" dictates that an easy method of detaching/attaching those parts be available. Hide glue fills the bill better than any other adhesive I'm aware of.

For larger pieces, getting it applied then assembled before it gels is often unsuccessful. I seldom use it in that application, as I believe the white and yellow woodworking glues are superior.

Many older piano technicians use the stuff for just about everything on a piano. Younger technicians tend to mostly use modern adhesives. I use it when I've determined it is the best adhesive.

Try it! You might like it!

[Jeff Mackay]

I built a reproduction king-sized cannonball bed from walnut several years ago. I fabricated each 3" square post with 3 segments made of 2 pieces of laminated 6/4 walnut. I laminated the 6/4 walnut with Titebond liquid hide glue. Everything held together real well, except for the top segment of one of the posts, which failed at the glue line about a year after I assembled the piece. None of the other segments delaminated.

Yes, the Titebond was fresh when I bought it. No, I'll never use Titebond liquid hide glue again. Haven't tried any other brands yet. When I do, it will be Old Brown Glue.

Jeff

[John Powers]

take a look at WoodTrek.com and click the thing on Hide glue in the upper left hand corner. Interesting.

[Mark Wurdeman]

Just checked my full bottle of TBHG and it was gelled solid. up here north of Minneapolis it gets cold and my shop isn’t the warmest. I’m sure that’s one reason it gelled.

So I tried warming the glue in the microwave and it thinned down nice after 5 15 second periods.

Now I’m testing it to see if it’s going to stick and dry.

Original plan was to use it for a crackled paint project. Set up a test piece for that too.

Anyone else had a similar experience or did you just toss the bottle like I was going to do?

[Edward Oleen]

Don't know about buying it in flake but... I searched for the website and (banging head against wall) the website is... OldBrownGlue.com you can ask Patrick about it, once you call 619.298.0864.

[Jim Finn]

I have used the cold hide glue from Titebond with good results. I make small artsy crafty stuff and when making wooden flowers it is hard to glue the pedals together without some inaccessible squeeze out and this glue will take a finish over it without discoloring.

[Edward Oleen]

http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/gluepage.htm[/URL]

THAT URL is also "www.oldbrownglue.com".....