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Pete Ganz
12-28-2006, 3:26 AM
Hi,

We are looking at getting a smallish Laser to mainly etch anodized alum. parts we produce. We talked to both VersaLaser and Epilog (probably going to go with VL300 based as it looks to be about 1/2 the cost of the Epilog)

Anyway as I said we will mostly use it for marking some anodized aluminum parts we make, but would also like to be able to do some other things once in a while like cutting acrylic maybe Delrin (both probably not more than 1/4"). Maybe some promotional stuff like etch glassware to give as business gifts.

Both ULS and Epilog said 30 watts would do what we want. But I'd like some input on why or why not to consider with going for a higher wattage? Would going to 40 or 50 watts help or hurst us in some way?

Thanks for any input

Pete

Joe Pelonio
12-28-2006, 7:42 AM
Pete,

The only thing that "hurts" with more power is the cost, and the eventual cost to replace a tube once the warranty is up. Other than that more power is better. Think of it this way, if you are doing a production cutting job, the difference between 30 and 45 watts could save you several hours in run time. Especiaslly if cutting 1/4" acrylic. For engraving anodized alum it probably wouldn't make much difference.

Nancy Laird
12-28-2006, 10:52 AM
Pete, there are several others on this board in other forums who have said, in essence, buy more tool than you need at the beginning, because eventually you will want more than what you get. If I were starting over, I'd start with nothing less than a 40W, and maybe more. We have two, and the 20W just didn't do all we wanted to do with it, so we now have a second.
Turners talk about the abyss--they just don't know!

Whatever you decide to buy, before you buy, price replacement tubes, AND check out re-sales. I sure do see a lot of Epilogs on the re-sale market, and I understand their tubes run 3-4 times the replacement cost of ULS. I'd vote for the ULS if I had a vote.

Just my 1.98.

Nancy

Rob Bosworth
12-28-2006, 11:21 AM
Hey Pete, good to hear you are going to buy a laser engraver. We have been involved with laser engraving machines since 1981. We handle a bunch of machines every year. We do not own one for engraving, we just refurbish them and send them on. But if I were to become an engraver, this is what I would buy:

I would buy a professional series machine made by one of the big manufactures.

I would probably buy a 18" X 24" range of motion machine, unless I actually had a job that neede a larger range of motion. A 12" X 24" range of motion would probably be OK for most of what I would do.

I would buy a 30 watt system unless I got a smoking deal on a 50 watt.

I would probably buy a machine with air assist, eventhough I have never needed or used air asssist on a 30 watt machine. I would not turn down a smoking deal on a machine that does not have air assist. Most people use air assist to blow the flame out on what they are cutting. The more power you have on your machine, the thicker the material you will try to cut. The thicker the material you cut, the better the chance of you having some flaming going on. I know there are materials that everyone says you have to have air assist in order to run, but I don't see it.

Jeanette Brewer
12-28-2006, 11:34 AM
(probably going to go with VL300 based as it looks to be about 1/2 the cost of the Epilog)


Pete,

I know this is a little off-topic now (since you're asking wattage questions, specifically) but ...

May I recommend that you speak with your Epilog distributor again to be sure the quotes you're getting are "apples to apples"? The Epilog quote might be a little(?) higher but I can't imagine an equal laser coming in at half the price.

Mike Mackenzie
12-28-2006, 12:04 PM
Pete,

There are a couple of issues to consider here. First 30 watts is enough to cut 1/4 inch materials if and when you need more power you can simply upgrade the laser tube. If you upgrade the laser tube within the first year you get a 100% trade in value on your 30 watt tube. Unless you can get the rep to throw in some additional wattage now then you will pay the exact same price now or within one year for the higher power laser. My opinion is to save your money up front use the system for a year and then evaluate what you could use or need. You may find out that the 30 watts is enough or if you need more power then upgrade it.

Second all the systems are pre plumbed with Air Assist so adding it is very easy it is simply a $140.00 cone is all that is needed.

Third the cost of recharge for laser tubes is not that different between a 30 watt and a 40 watt only a hundred dollar difference.

Good luck I am sure what ever decision you make you will enjoy the new system.

If you need any other specific questions answered please don't hesitate to contact me.

Tim Goldstein
12-28-2006, 1:37 PM
Just wanted to point out that what Mike said is specific to Universal. In my shopping they are the only vendor that offers a fixed price and set trade in value for power upgrades (everyone else danced around, said no one really does it and when pushed for a price said it would be $10K or so to upgrade power). Universal was also the only vendor that had a fixed out of warranty repair cost that was well below everyone elses low end of their estimate range.

Pete Ganz
12-28-2006, 3:19 PM
I want to thank you all for the prompt feedback as I need to get something ordered before the end of the year which is like now-ish<g>.

I'll check with ULS on the ability to upgrade laser tubes on the VL-300 as that would be a nice option.

I was comparing the Epilog mini 24 45 watt VS the Vl-300, not a totally fair match but rep said the 45 watt was on special and lower $ than he lower wattage models.

The price advantage on the versalaser VL-300 diminishes if I add the High power option (super res?) and more watts ( 50 watt) the price delta closes in on $3000. without those additions, which the ULS rep said I didn't need, the delta is close to $10,000. That big of a difference makes me wonder if I'm missing something.

Pete

Nancy Laird
12-28-2006, 3:37 PM
Pete, The rep can tell you anything he wants to try to get your business; it doesn't come true until you have signed papers in hand. From my dealings with ULS and Mike McKenzie, I have the utmost respect and loyalty to ULS. Their service, when needed, is superb; Mike has been available to answer questions and help with the few problems we have had, and we couldn't be happier with our two ULS machines. Again, you need to look at the cost of tube replacement and the number of re-sales you will see. It would probably be good if you could sit down at WOE and EE forums, as well as this one, and read all the posts about the various kudos and problems people have posted about the two brands.

The man we bought our M360 from did research for a year before he decided which laser to buy. Don't know how long you've been looking, but trying to make a decision in a hurry isn't good.

Nancy

Pete Ganz
12-28-2006, 4:08 PM
Thanks Nancy,

Initially wasn't too impressed with ULS, took a lot of back and froth to get a demo arranged (but being in sales I know how that is) but once rep came in I was impressed as she had a lot of great ideas on machine installation and how to do our parts in ways that would save us time and money. Plus ULS did a couple batches of samples, first batch wasn't right but they were real friendly about redoing them.

I'll do more digging around. Like I said we don't expect this machine to see a lot of use as compared to a shop that does full time engraving but then again who knows what uses we will ind for it once we have it.

Could you give me a fuller address on the WOE and EE forums, please? If they are as help as this one It will make our selection a lot easier.

Thanks

pete

Ed Maloney
12-28-2006, 4:18 PM
From my research Epilog has a few standard features that you would have to pay extra for with other vendors.

Nancy Laird
12-28-2006, 5:04 PM
Thanks Nancy,


Could you give me a fuller address on the WOE and EE forums, please? If they are as help as this one It will make our selection a lot easier.

Thanks

pete

I think putting the addresses on here is a TOS violation; I'm sending you a PM.

Nancy

Dave Jones
12-28-2006, 5:11 PM
I've never spoken to a ULS dealer about VL-300 pricing, so have no idea how much they discount them. But I came across what I assume is the list prices on Engravers Network.

The VL-300 is shown as $7000 plus the cost of the tube, which is $6000 for the 30 watt, $8000 for the 40 watt and $10,000 for the 50 watt, making the basic machine be $13k, $15k, or $17k. The vector table is shown as another $340, the air back sweep (similar to the air assist in the Epilog) is $225, and the high resolution optics is $2,650. Those add up to $3,115, but are included in the base price of the Mini-24 if you are going to compare prices.

Perhaps the Versa dealer is giving a much larger discount than the Epilog dealer, because compared to what I remember as the list prices of the Mini-24 45 watt, it was noticeably less than the $20,115 list price the roughly equivalent VL-300 50 watt seems to have.

I've never used a VL-300, and the spot size claimed for their super res optics is noticeably smaller than the spot size on my Mini-24. So maybe the 2 systems are not exactly the same. I'm just trying to make the point that maybe comparing the two systems a little closer equiped, that they're not so far apart in price.

Joe Pelonio
12-28-2006, 5:41 PM
If you anticipate upgrading to a more powerful tube, make sure to ask about that prior to purchasing. My 45 watt Epilog, for example, is at the maximum, it cannot be upgraded beyond 45 watts. Other Epilog models can be.

Mike Shauer
12-28-2006, 8:39 PM
I have a VL 300 30 watt, have used it for a little over a year. No problems that I didn't create. NONE! It has done everything I have given it.

They are a good first machine because of the running software. Basically you pick the substrate you are using and the thickness and watch it work.

As for the high resolution optics for $2,650 I don't think you need it. I have a 1.5" and a 2" lens, the 1.5" focuses down so you almost need a magnifying glass to read it.

I looked at most of the different suppliers for over a year before purchasing and the cost to replace a tube is what finally made the difference. I can have a tube landed here for under $1000,00. for a 30 watt, if I wanted a 50 watt of course it would be more but still not as much as most other suppliers.

I am glad I bought a Universal laser for a first machine and would probable buy my second machine from them HOWEVER if one of the other manufactures came up with a decent warranty (minimum 3 years) I could be persuaded to change brands.

If you can live with the 12 X 24 table size I don't think you can not go wrong with a VL 300 .
Cheers, Mike

Pete Ganz
12-29-2006, 2:05 AM
Thanks

that is good to hear that you are happy with it. The input in the ho-rez optics is very welcome as well.

I'm getting closer and closer to making a choice.

pete