Band Saws

[Greg Cole]

Does anyone have any input on a 14-17" bandsaw choice?
I am leaning towards the Grizzly 0513X for the features and capacities, it seems to have many goodies and not such a hefty price as compared to the MM16 or an "Agg".
I am looking to do some resaw and curved cuts for the most part with it. I have a G0586; 8" jointer that I really have had great luck with now for going on 2 years. The only "regret" is not upgrading to the spiral cutterhead and/or indexable carbides. I am not stuck on Grizzly, but as most of you I've been reading posts from..... I become brand loyal from experience.
Any info from any Grizzly band saw owners would be great... any other Tiawanese import users info is greatly appreciated too!

Greg

That "slippery" Neander slope has caused me to fall and I don't think I want to get up.

[Jim Becker]

The G0513 has been a very popular saw over time...many folks have commented favorably on it. The "X" version just adds some nice goodies.

[Brent Grooms]

The SteelCity is worth looking at. I chose it over the Grizz offerings due to what I believe is better construction and design. I resawed some walnut this evening while a fellow creeker was visiting and it did a really nice job without much fuss or effort. The questions and problems that I have encountered have been dealt with without any b.s. by their techs and customer service.

[Tom Hamilton]

Greg, I'm a 513X owner since June 06. While not a heavy user every time I've fired it up it does what I what done. I actually prefer it to my table saw for many operations.

Delivered into my shop by the driver, set up easily, and has done all I ask of it. I'm a Griz fan for my level of use. Ithink it is a real value for the features and price.

Enjoy the chase, Tom, in Houston, happy with his Griz 513X

[Jake Helmboldt]

Greg, at this pricepoint (~$1,000), it seems like it is all about compromises from one brand to the next (in terms of features of one vs. another).

I would suggest looking at saws in person if at all possible and putting your hands on them. It make a big difference in my opinion. Funny you should ask this question because I just visited Woodworker's Supply today and looked at several bandsaws. Here are my observations (to be taken as just that, but I'll try to be objective) NOTE: I have the Shopfox 1729 which is almost the same as the Grizzly 19" w/ a few minor differences, so I will use the Grizz/SF as the baseline for comparison.

The Steel City was mentioned and I was excited to see this stuff in person for the first time. However, I was not wowed. (as an aside, FWW did a recent review and their test saw had numerous flaws, some major). Fit and finish on the SC was comparable to Shopfox and Jet, etc. The trunnions are wide and stable, however I noticed they are the same style as the Deltas and use a soft metal that can gouge easily. An 18" Delta at my local dealer had this happen on the display model and it makes movement and accurate adjustment (and locking down the table) difficult. If you are careful that probably won't ever be an issue, but it is something that I didn't care for.

Trunnions part 2. The trunnions on the SC are secured with two locking knobs that I thought were cumbersome and I didn't like the feel. By comparison the Grizz/SF trunnions are steel that appear wimpy, but have proven quite stable. Another feature I like is that fact that the table has a locking lever and adjusts via a geared lever, thought it takes longer to move all the way to 45 than one that simply rotates but which must be held in place when locking down. Speed vs. acccuracy. This is an example of what I mean by the title of "compromise".

Now, I have resawn 3' cherry logs and the table was plenty sturdy, but larger longer logs might be another issue. By comparison, the trunnion on the Woodtek 18" is a huge cast iron piece. So if resawing big long pieces is something you might do then maybe that is something to consider.

Fences: The SC was unimpressive here as the fence was way undersized and flexed like a noodle. The table on the SC is a little on the small side at 20x20 (vs 26x19 on the 19" Grizz and 24x17 on the 17" Grizz).

Guides: Both the Grizz and SC have ball bearing guides, the SF has Euro guides. The SF guides are very noisy, though they seem to do their job. The Woodtek had truly impressive Euro guides that are higher quality than the SF, and the whole assembly is microadjustable in various planes. However, is this overkill? If the guide move on a rack and pinion then hopefully they will stay in the same plane relative to the blade. This is something to look for and was one of the complaints in the FWW brief review of the SC (and I believe this was a problem with the Delta 18", reported by several people on this and other forums). My SF stays perfectly inline and the guidepost is nice and rigid. Also, the lower guides on the Woodtek need both a box wrench and allen wrench. I don't recall the adjustment of the SC guides, supposedly no tools?

Of those I mentioned the Woodtek is the only one without a tension release. The tension gauges are all quirky. The SF is numbered 1-9; what the heck is that?! The SC has different blade sizes, but the "pointer" is rectangular, so w/out the manual I didn't know how to read it since it doesn't "point" but lines up with 2 different numbers. I don't know what the Grizz is like.

The SC and woodtek both have brakes that the Grizz and SF don't. Not crucial, but a nice feature.

The Woodtek has all metal knobs and seems to be the most robustly built of all of them with bigger wheel bearings and beefier parts in general, but the finish is uglier and less refined. The others all have plastic knobs and handwheels. The SC's blade tension wheel is solid and is hard to grip as a result. Minor, but small hands would find it harder to use. I also found their wheel tracking knob lock to be chintzy; a 25 cent metal wingnut.

So this is my long way of saying, put your hands on as many machines as possible and look at them in person. Even if you have to drive to do so will be worth it I think. As I said, there are a lot of little compromises with these saws, and what might annoy me won't mean much to you, or vice versa. In the end they are all probably quite comparable, which comes down to price. For me, the SC comes at a premium of several hundred dollars, and I don't see where they merit that just yet.

One other to look at is the Rikon. They have gotten some good reviews, both in the press and by actual users, and they are available at Woodcraft and others. In the future I will always buy from a local dealer so I can have them to rely on should anything not be satisfactory with the machine. So while I seem to come down on the side of the Grizz I am hesitant to buy anything else that I would have to crate back up if I had to return it.

Jake

[Jim Becker]

The SteelCity is worth looking at.

Fine Woodworking just did a look at the 18" Steel City band saw and were less than complimentary on the machine relative to the guide assemblies. This, they claimed caused excessive blade twist during resawing. (FW January/February 2007 Pg 30) The guide systems are pretty important on a bandsaw when it's employed for stressful cutting.

[Alex Berkovsky]

Greg,
If you decide to go with 0513X, make sure to use the discount code WOODMO612 ($100 off) which expires on Dec 31st.

[Pete Bradley]

I have no opinion on Steel City, but I thought the FWW review had some pretty big holes in it. See the Knots thread in the Taunton forum
for some discussion on it.

Pete

[Guy Germaine]

Another happy 0513X owner here. I'm very pleased with it so far. I made some practice resaw cuts on it the other day. I have a 1" Timberwolf blade and was able to cut 10" wide slices of Cherry veneer 1/16" thick with no problem. The table is nice sized, and the fence is very sturdy. It comes with a detachable resaw fence made of aluminum, and works very well. No vibration at all when running, and very quiet. Also, you hear all the horror stories about getting the machine set up, and adjusting the rip fence for blade drift. I may have just been lucky, but I have yet to adjust the fence for blade drift. When I assemebled the saw, I made sure the table was square with the blade, and used my Wixey to adjust the cut to 90*, and that's been it. I switch between the 1" Timberwolf and a 3/8" Timberwolf, and never re-adjust the fence. Once the initial setup and assembly was done, I haven't had to adjust anything. YMMV

Good luck with whatever you decide on.

[Doug Shepard]

I have no opinion on Steel City, but I thought the FWW review had some pretty big holes in it. See the Knots thread in the Taunton forum for some discussion on it.

Pete
As the moderators are likely to remove your link (to another forum), I'll mention the big one. They apparently measured table flatness without the taper pin that gets inserted after blade changes. So if the reviewers happened to get one with a perfectly flat table for measurement, they'd knock it out of flat as soon as the pin was inserted.
I have the MM16, so don't have any reason to promote the SC. But I stopped over to Brent Grooms' yesterday for a look at his SC and was favorably impressed that they were able to squeeze the features on it into that price range. I'm not sure how much stock I would put in that FWW review. I think a hands on comparison to the other saws in that price range would be worth your time.

[David Marcus Brown]

As the moderators are likely to remove your link (to another forum), I'll mention the big one. They apparently measured table flatness without the taper pin that gets inserted after blade changes. So if the reviewers happened to get one with a perfectly flat table for measurement, they'd knock it out of flat as soon as the pin was inserted.
I have the MM16, so don't have any reason to promote the SC. But I stopped over to Brent Grooms' yesterday for a look at his SC and was favorably impressed that they were able to squeeze the features on it into that price range. I'm not sure how much stock I would put in that FWW review. I think a hands on comparison to the other saws in that price range would be worth your time.
In addition to commenting on table flatness w/ the alignment pin removed (?!) FWW appeared to comment on something that was bent that affected the blade tracking? I'm a cynic by nature and wonder if the other advertisers are putting pressure on FWW or some of the stalwarts don't want to give SC a chance? :rolleyes:

[Pete Bradley]

Check out the Knots thread. It's not clear that anything was bent, just out of alignment.

Pete

[Brian Rice]

I have PM and now MM16. Love the MM16. Have the laguna driftmaster fence on order for the MM16. Depends on what you have to spend. Get the best you can afford. I personally have not hd good luck with Grizzly.

[David Marcus Brown]

Check out the Knots thread. It's not clear that anything was bent, just out of alignment.

Pete

Hi Pete,

Found the magazine. Here's a quote from the article:

The table rides on aluminum trunnions, and the cast-iron trunnion supports lock securely. But the saw I looked at had a 0.012-in. crown in the middle of the table and a 0.024-in. disparity in table surfaces at the blade slot with the alignment pin removed. The upper blade guides mount to a rack-andpinion guide post by means of a 90º steel bracket. Unfortunately, the bracket on the saw I tested was bent more than 90º, which created a twist in the blade between the upper and lower guides.

To me it sounded like they were trying to find something wrong with the saw rather than writing those things off as manufacturing variances. Just my .02 ;)

[Homer Faucett]

I agree with many of the points made by Jake with relation to actually looking at and using the saw before you buy. I made a decision on a bandsaw about a year ago. In the end, I found that the feel of the build quality varied enough between the saws out there that I wanted to be able to actually see the machine before I purchased.

At that time, a few people were having some issues with customer service from some of the mail order machine places. I opted to buy local so that I could return the whole saw if I did not like the way it came out of the box without being out some substantial shipping costs.

[Pete Bradley]

Yup, that's the quote. Obviously the measurement without the pin is out to lunch. I suspect the "bent more than 90 degrees" is also a misdiagnosis and what's really wrong was that the top and bottom guide alignment needed to be adjusted.

The same issue contains a router review with a section on runout that's similarly flawed. The author's findings are full of clues that should have tipped the author off that his measurements were meaningless, including an observation that it was difficult to see any difference in cut between his "best" and "worst" runout machines. After all that, he still cited "lowest runout" in the first sentence of picking the winner!

I don't think there's any ill intention in this, but the reviews would be better if the reviewers stuck to what they know. Leave the dial indicator in the drawer and talk as an expert woodworker on what the machine is like to use. That's what the readers really want to know anyway.

Pete

[tim mathis]

a thread on woodnet titled ( e-mail from steel city ) from the steel city people said the upper guide post is adjustable on this bandsaw. which is not in the online manual but will be added in january. the fww reviewer must not have known it was adjustable.

[Pete Bradley]

Glad to see I called it right. I hope FWW will make amends in some way.

Pete

[Jake Helmboldt]

Why should they make amends? The only nitpicking was the crown in the table, which one could argue is still reflective of an overall lack of QC. By their own admission SC didn't include info on the adjustability of the guide bearing support. And the cut quality was a problem due to a flexing guidepost.

Had FWW not been so anal about the table flatness would so many be bashing them for being unreasonable?

Had I bought that saw and had those problems I would be annoyed as a consumer.

JH

[Craig McDaniel]

I have the 513 (no X).

It's a fine saw that has done everything that I've asked of it from basic scroll work with a 1/4" blade to resawing 4' x 9" mesquite logs without a problem.

The only upgrades I've made to it have been ceramic guides and a shop made resaw fence. You probably won't need either with the 513X.

I'd recommend the saw without hesitation.

Craig

[Pete Bradley]

Why should they make amends? The only nitpicking was the crown in the table...
JH
Some may disagree, but I think FWW clearly erred by:
- claiming that the table was not flat when the alignment pin was not in place (it wouldn't be)
- claiming a manufacturing defect in the top guide that was actually just an adjustment issue.

I got a chance to eyeball this machine in my local Woodcraft today and found that the top guide uses a simple and obviously placed 3-point adjustment. It's hard to imagine how a professional writing a machine review for a major magazine not only missed this but didn't call the manufacturer for help, but I suppose everyone has a bad day sometimes.

When a respected magazine prints in big type that a machine has "Flaws", buyers listen. When the "flaws" turn out not to be, I believe the publication has a responsibility to print a correction.

Pete

[David Marcus Brown]

Why should they make amends? The only nitpicking was the crown in the table, which one could argue is still reflective of an overall lack of QC. By their own admission SC didn't include info on the adjustability of the guide bearing support. And the cut quality was a problem due to a flexing guidepost.

Had FWW not been so anal about the table flatness would so many be bashing them for being unreasonable?

Had I bought that saw and had those problems I would be annoyed as a consumer.

JH
Reviews should always allow manufacturers to respond to criticisms raised during a product test or comparison -- especially when it's a remark about a very new company. What a market leading magazine has to say about a power tool in an important category like band saws has a huge impact on a company. They deserve the right to respond. Most people looking for power tools don't pore over the internet looking for reviews. They grab one of the major magazines at the newstand and look for reviews or they buy one of their yearly power tool compendiums.

[Jake Helmboldt]

then I guess they should tighten up their QC. Personally I was not impressed with SC when I finally got to see them in person, and FWW routinely points out QC issues. SC can respond, as others do, after the fact.

As a new start-up SC needs to be on point and make sure they are beating the competition at something. You pay a small premium for their product and it really isn't substantially different from the competition (surely being made in the same factory as some of the competition).

When FWW does a tool comparison (say 8" jointers) and several have tables that are significantly out of alighnment or not flat, should they give the maker a chance to make good? No. They report what they bought, just like what you and I would potentially get.