Shop Heater

[Greg Peterson]

Okay, I've searched the thread and haven't found anything that addesses my configuration.

I have a two car garage, of which part if it is being partitioned into a laundry room. This will provide a nice area for laundry and serve as a buffer for any shop noise.

Shop space is about 341 Square feet with 8.5" ceilings. I'm not interested in making the the space a home away from home, temperature-wise at least. But 55 degrees or better for evening and weekend work would be great.

Winters in the Portland metro area are generally mild, upper 30's by night to lower 50's by day (as a general range). I'm having a hard time calculating the size of heater, and more importantly, what heater style is safe in a wood shop.

The heater for the most part would not be attended, except for the quick occassional trip inside for something or the first few minutes while the chill is sent packing.

How many BTU's and what heating technology provides the greatest safe guards. Wiring isn't a problem. I plan on providing a dedicated 240V, single phase ciruit available for the heater unit.

(edited to clean up egg nog influenced spelling and gramar)

[Don Stanley]

I plan on making a dedicated 540V, single phase circuit available for the heater unit.

WOW! I didn't know they had this kind of power in the Portland area :D

Seriously, I would consider electric. Go with a 220V/16.7A 4KW unit. I have a commercial grade Lakewood Model 798 portable like the one illustrated here. http://www.lakewoodeng.com/heaterpgs/798240-c.html This heater is a little noisy because the fan pushes a lot of air for better distribution.

I live in central Washington, and use it to heat my 600SF garage/Shop. The shop is fully insulated; R21 in the walls, and R38 in the ceiling. If the temps are in the low 30's it takes about 2-3 hours to reach 60 degrees, but does the job. I plan to replace it with a larger (5KW) ceiling mount heater next year. I have been using 23K BTU Kerosene heater for the first 1-2 hours. I use an additive with the Kerosene to reduce odor.

[tim mathis]

hi , i have a 19 x 25 shop with 9 foot ceilings, i tried the kerosene heater for a couple of winters and i wanted something better. i went with a dayton heavy duty electric heater , i chose a #2yu66 from grainger about $450.00 . 7.5 kw single phase, 25.6 btu's , 240v , 31.3 amps , rpm of fan 1600 , 650 cfm at outlet , it throws air 18 feet in the horizontal position. you can wire it so the fan moves air around in the shop in the summer. in ohio it has been in the 20's and 30's at night and it takes about 20 - 30 mins to get my dusty shop in the upper 60's. i keep it 66 to 69 most of the time.i paid about 20 buck at lowes for a hunter digital thermostat, it is so nice not to have to stop what i am doing to shut off or start a heater. this heater is not loud and it moves alot of air. i have it hanging from the ceiling with threaded rod. i love this heater.and i have had no problems. i hope this helps tim mathis in centerville ohio

[Jim Becker]

I'm also considering putting a 240v electric unit in the shop to help with getting things "up to working temp" a lot faster than I can with the electric radiant units. With the weather being so mild so far, the small units have actually worked out fine, but I'm going to be spending a lot more time in the shop going forward with all the projects I have to do and I will not have the luxury of having a lot of time to wait for things to get up to at least close to 60 degrees...I don't really like working at lower temps as my hands start to hurt big-time. Once I get the shop to temp, it does hold it reasonably well, despite only having insulation in the walls and none above.

For this reason, I'll be interesting in the continued commentary from folks who have used this kind of heater. (I do not have the option to easily use any form of gas in my shop...NG is not piped out there and venting would be "complicated" at present)

[Kris Ingmanson]

I suggest that you heat it full time, if possible. I was using a portable LP heater for awhile and would turn it on when I wanted to work. I spent a lot of time trying to keep rust off my cast iron work surfaces. Once you heat a previously cold room, water condenses on all of the cold cast iron. I installed an overhead natural gas heater and keep the room at about 50 all the time and bump it up to 65 or so when I am working and now I get no rust. Of course, the LP gas is also very moist so maybe if you heat with electric the condensing moisture would be less of a problem.

[Bill White]

I have had good results using an oil-filled radiator style heater. Leave it on all the time on low to keep the shop cozy. Turn it up if I will be in for a long time. Don't have to worry about tip over, hot coils, or burned elements so far.
Bill

[Mike Seals]

My shop is 1200 sf, when we bought our house the upstairs heatpump was on it's last leg so we had the sellers replace it as part of the sale. I kept the heat strip section and the fan and put it in my shop and built a small plenum to direct the air flow. It worked great. I used it like that for about three years and then needing the floor space and the breaker, I moved it out (gave it to a friend). Winters are not too cold down here so I suffer when it's cold (anything below 65).

Any of your A/C shops will probably have older models they take out and since they have to dispose of them, they are normally very happy to give them away, something to look into.

[Greg Peterson]

Don - Walls will be insulated, but only R13 (2x4 studs), and ceiling will be insulated also. Garage doors have more in common with a screen door than anything else.

Tim- I'll take a peak at the Grainger unit.

Jim - I'm at the age where I'm just starting to feel the effects 0f maturity. Too many wheel barrows of gravel/dirt and my hands ache for days. Cold hasn't revealed any long term discomfort. Yet.

I will spend alot of time in the shop, leaving primarily for bathroom food and breaks. Many of my creature comforts will be in the shop.

Kris- Nervous about leaving a stand alone heating device unattended for 9-10 hours a day. Otherwise, good idea.

Mike - Excellent idea. Given the space to heat and the limited use, effieceincy isn't a concern. I'll be making some calls.

Thanks folks!

[Earl Reid]

I have used a 18,000 btu non-vented gas heater for 14 yrs with no problems. I keep it at 60d all the time except when we go away or I don't go to the shop for a few days. then I turn it down to 50. I use a 5000 btu AC in the summer. The only slight rust has been on a couple of Jappeness saws that I seldem use. My 2 cents.
Earl

[Mike Buelow]

Wondering what effect the electric heaters have on folks' electrical service. That 4kW model would pull about 17A, which I suppose isn't too bad. The reason I ask is because I have only a 60A subpanel.

Also would be interesting to know the duty cycle of those electricals, but lots of variables... need to spend some more time on "the google" I suppose.
Let's see-- I'm paying about $0.08 per hour.

The treshold is the $16 I pay for a fresh LP exchange every month or so during the cold months.

[Greg Peterson]

The reason I ask is because I have only a 60A subpanel.

I am upgrading to 200 amp service, and the service panel is about fifteen feet of Romex away from the electrical heating unit. I was on 100 amp service with antiqueated breakers that cost about $20 a piece at the BORG.

County inspector comes tomorrow, afterwhich I call the utility to schedule the changeover.

I haven't completely committed to electric heat. Certainly the easiest. But NG would work too. Just more plumbing and holes in the roof.

[Paul Canaris]

1. it’s out of the way and cant be tipped over.
2. Thermostatically controlled
3. No fuels to store or run out of

I have had one for about two months and I am very happy with it.

Here is one example. http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_595_595

[Doug Shepard]

...
The heater for the most part would not be attended, except for the quick occassional trip inside for something or the first few minutes while the chill is sent packing.
...


I'm kinda assuming you meant to say "not be unattended" ? Also - you didn't mention whether your shop space is insulated or closed ceilings, etc. Not that I'm going to have a BTU requirement for you either way, but I would think that would make a major difference in how much heater you need.

[Gary Curtis]

I've got the Lakewood 4kw 220 heater in my newly constructed shop in Northern Calif. It brings the shop temp up from low 40's to high 50's in about 15 minutes. Shop is extemely well insulated.

Cost of operation (with rates of 6.3 cents per kw hour) would be about 25 cents for an hour. I would prefer radiant hydronic, but the installation would be too pricey. We have hydronic heat in another house and love it. It is ideal for a shop because it keeps the rust down.

The heater cost me $140 at an Ace Hardware store.

Gary Curtis

[Greg Peterson]

Doug,

Yeah, I meant the to indicate that the heater will not experience extend periods unattended. Bathroom breaks and food breaks. Ideally the space will be comfortable enough to lounge on the love seat, listen to some tunes and take a nap. :D

The walls will be R13 with sheet rock and the ceiling will be insulated ( I forget offhand, but it's prtty thick stuff).

This spring/summer new insulated garage doors will be going up. Original ones are a little leaky and weather worn. Looking for something that provides a better weather seal, insulation (heavy duty afternoon sun - just bakes in there) and some better sound insulation. I like to play my electric guitar and build the occassional amp. I'm not a loud player by any means, but I prefer to not draw any unwarranted attention my way. Trying to be a good neighbor.

[Bill Neely]

Greg I'm down in Corvallis and heat my not-well-insulated 20x24 shop with a 4kw heater. I turn it down at night but leave it on - the shop never gets much below 50.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been working on a commercial building for some time. I just installed window type heat pumps in it to do periodic heating. These units may be border line cost wise for a woodworking shop around $500 but they heat, cool, save energy and have thermostats built in. They are called PTAC units, as used in hotels/motels.

http://www.valleyofsun.com/store.tpl?rnd=2296&cart=E826941D-9AB7-48A9-A804-EBCE5D16AEAE&

The wife has me in a garage rebuilding project too. She is very active in Mini Cooper Clubs and is starting to think she is a mechanic/racer. The "hot" compact heater sight on the garage forums is:

http://www.air-n-water.com/

Those would be our top two picks after a couple years of playing around with the issue of trying to heat/cool an area on a part time basis. We have several of the small 120v units to heat smaller specific areas. We use one of the radiant heaters from HD to keep pipes in the basement of our commercial building warm enough to avoid freezing, in the rare event that it gets cold enough to threaten freezing in a room half under ground. It also doubles, as a method of drying dogs people have washed.

One thing I found that people may want to check on: the minimum setting on thermostats can vary a great deal, mine are from 50 to 62.

[Robert Livingston]

My garage workshop comes in a bit under 300 sq ft, not terribly well insulated, but I keep a small space heater (Pelonis, oil-filled, from HD) running continuously at a middle setting to keep the temperature from dropping too much. It's comfortable enough for brief trips to the shop and doesn't need supplementing if the temperature stays mid-40's or better outside. When it's colder and/or I'm planning an extended shop time I have an overhead Marvin radiant electric heater (Lee Valley) that heats very quickly and I can aim it where I need it most. I preheat when I'm planning glue-ups. I did see the Marvin units at my local HD for the first time this fall. Good luck!

Robert

[Don Stanley]

Wondering what effect the electric heaters have on folks' electrical service. That 4kW model would pull about 17A, which I suppose isn't too bad. The reason I ask is because I have only a 60A subpanel.

Also would be interesting to know the duty cycle of those electricals, but lots of variables... need to spend some more time on "the google" I suppose.
Let's see-- I'm paying about $0.08 per hour.

The treshold is the $16 I pay for a fresh LP exchange every month or so during the cold months.


I found this fuel calculater interesting. http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm

You will need to enter the cost of each fuel for your location.

[Greg Peterson]

Bill - What kind of heating unit do you use? The idea of keeping the shop at a minimum temp is appealing. 45-50 degreee's minimum would decrease the time reqwuired to heat the shop up to a more comfortable working temp.

[Jim Becker]

MI have an overhead Marvin radiant electric heater (Lee Valley) that heats very quickly and I can aim it where I need it most. I preheat when I'm planning glue-ups. I did see the Marvin units at my local HD for the first time this fall.

I use three of these in my shop currently as "the" main heat source. They do work great, although one must remember they don't warm the air...only "things" including "me". I have a fourth floor-standing radient available as well as an oil-filled unit and a kero heater if it's really necessary to supply "big heat" on a cold January/February day. I only will use the kero heater to actually warm the place up, then kill it in favor of the electrics to maintain temp.

[Jeremy Gibson]

1. it’s out of the way and cant be tipped over.
2. Thermostatically controlled
3. No fuels to store or run out of

I have had one for about two months and I am very happy with it.

Here is one example. http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_595_595

This is the unit I have in my 2-car insullated garage. I keep it on very low all the time since it has an internal thermostat - and it works extremely well. Keep in mind that at 9,300 ft in the Colorado Rockies the winter temps get very low (i.e. below zero as a rule). Even with an old and drafty 16' overhead door the space stays comfortable. If I'm going to be out there and it's a bit chilly, I just up the temp dial a little bit and soon I'm toasty! Unless you keep this on a higher temp 24 hrs a day the cost to run isn't too bad.

BTW, I have this on a 60 Amp subpannel and can comfortably run the dust collector and one machine all at once. My electritian told me to add up the amps of the equipment that will be on at the same time and add 25%. This should be all you really need.

[Joe Trotter]

I have a cadet I bought from HD. It does pretty well in the 24X8 part of the garage, with tarps as a wall seperating the cars from me. I can keep it at 60 when it is 20 outside.

I may get a chance to try it again Saturday :)

http://www.cadetco.com/show_product.php?prodid=1012

[Bob Taylor]

1. it’s out of the way and cant be tipped over.
2. Thermostatically controlled
3. No fuels to store or run out of

I have had one for about two months and I am very happy with it.

Here is one example. http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_595_595
I also have this unit and it works like a charm. My approx 450 sf shop (garage) has insulated walls but uninsulated ceiling and door. I keep the built-in thermostat towards the low end and run it 24/7. The average temp in the shop is 58-60F. I did this on purpose for the month of Dec and it increased my electric bill $12 for the period.

I want to insulate the door and ceiling to see what improvement they will bring.

[Greg Peterson]

I guess I'm just nervous about leaving an electric heater unattended. All the solutions you guys have shared seem practical and within my price range.

Perhaps I'll get a unit that'll heat up the shop and supplement it with the a Marvin over the workbench.

Thanks for the input.

[Bill Neely]

Greg, my heater is an Oullette from Northern Tool. I have it hardwired on it's own 240V circuit, hanging about a foot below the ceiling. It also has an overtemp cutout - I think it's about as safe as anything you can find.

Bill

[John Buzzurro]

My garage is 300 sq. feet and insulated. I use this electric heater (http://www.air-n-water.com/product/DGWH4031.html), and it keeps the garage nice and toasty.

[Al Willits]

"""""""""
The heater for the most part would not be attended, except for the quick occasional trip inside for something or the first few minutes while the chill is sent packing.
"""""""

This might determine the btu size of your heater more than you think, depending on what temp you keep the garage at, it could take quite the unit to heat it in just a few minutes.
Also, consider the cost of btu versus kilowatts.
Electric or gas prices vary so you can't always say one is cheaper than the other.
A gas furnace would give you several good features over hydronic or elect radiants, adding A/C for one and a filtering system for another.
plus the duct work can be run to reach all of the garage.
Also gas has probably the quickest recovery time in general.

I have a bit over 800cf of garage and use a 80%+ efficiency 75,000 Rheem standard house furnace but I live in Minnesota and it does get a bit cool here.

Shooting from the hip, I'd bet a 50,000 btu unit would work fine, there are heat loss formula's that will tell you exactly what you need, find someone who sells furnaces and they may have it and possible do a heat loss on your garage for not a lot of money.
Just a thought..
Al

[Mike Holbrook]

The PTAC units I mention above will heat and cool. They are like old window air conditioners in appearance but are actually heat pumps. We are heating and cooling a 60x20 foot area with two units, one on each end of the building (no duct work). I looked at putting in a central system with duct work and it would have cost 4 or 5 times as much. I guess hotels and motels use them for some of the same reasons we would. Although I have not had them in long, we have used them to heat and cool with good results. Here in Georgia cooling is as important as heating.

[Jeff Cybulski]

I know the dis-advantages of LP heaters ( condensation/rust) but does anyone use one to heat their shop? I have a 55k BTU torpedo heater that I run for about 10 min.to get my 1200 sq/ft shop heated to 60F. I found that by using as fan to circulate the air helps distribute and I don't have a rust problem.

Just wondering?