Planes - old vs. new

[Howie French]

After using my Veritas LA block plane and card scrapers for the past year,
I am planning on adding some additional planes, mostly for smoothing to final finish. I see many old Stanley's for sale that look in ok shape for around 40$.

So my question is, Are the newer planes, LN,LV really that much better then
a properly tuned old planes. Is it riskly buying an old plane judging by just pictures, are some going to be impossible to properly tune ?

Howie

[Mike Henderson]

It sort of depends on what you're going to use the planes for. For example, for jointing an older Stanley will work as well as any new plane. For smoothing, you'll have to tune and adjust (fettle) the Stanley a lot more, and maybe add a new thicker blade. A new LN or LV plane is almost ready to go out of the box. An older plane will require your time to sharpen, flatten, clean and adjust. So if you have more time than money, go with the older Stanley. If you have more money than time, go with the newer plane.

If you decide to buy an older Stanley Bailey plane, look for one with a keyhole hole on the lever cap. In "newer" planes, Stanley changed that to a kidney shape so the keyhole indicates an older plane if the lever cap is original. Beyond that, look for a seller who provides lots of pictures and can describe the plane in detail. If the seller says, "I don't know much about planes but this one looks old" look for another listing.

Mike

[Clint Jones]

If you are going to buy an older Stanley plane I suggest the SW era planes or the WWII era planes. The WWII era planes have very thick heavy castings which is nice but the are not the prettiest thing. I would also suggest replacing the stock blade with a thicker Hock Blade. You can get really nice old stanley planes from Walt at www.brasscityrecords.com (http://www.brasscityrecords.com) . If I bought anything off of ebay I would be really cautious and not jump into anything. Just because the seller has all positive feedback doesnt mean they will be knowledgeable about the tool you are buying. Ask a lot of questions and for extra pictures if needed and if the seller is honest and reputable they will have no problem with this. A Stanley Bedrock is always an option but they will run a bit more.

[Tony Zaffuto]

If you buy from the -bay, it's mostly a crapshoot unless you're dealing with a known seller with a good reputation. There are a number of decent sellers posting on forums and all have generally well above average quality.

You can go to guys who are in a full time business of selling used tools and a few of them hang around here--prices are a whisker higher, as is the quality.

You can search out the big name auctions, and you're back in moderate price range with quality issues dependent upon your time to study the tool you are after.

As far as quality: I'm of the opinion that quality is almost as much a perception of the user as the tool and that perception is driven by what you feel you will do with the tool. Give me my old #4 with wore down factory blade and chip breaker and then my brand spanking new #4 LN (actually 2 years old but really never used much) and I can smooth a better looking surface with the old #4. Why? I spend time with the old #4 learning her every nook and cranny, rubbing her where she needed it, stroking her blade to look as good as any of the new fancy models parading on the runway today. I'm sure the LN will be the equal or more, but what that will take is a learning curve of the idiosyncrasies of the plane.

Given my choice, and not having a plane, I'd go for one of the new models--LN or LV. Having a number of planes, I go for whatever catches my eye or needs at the time. I took delivery yesterday of a Preston spokeshave form the Leachmiester--beautiful tool! cleaned it up a bit (don't tell Patrick) and sharpened the blade. That spoke shave has a mouth tighter than any modern spokeshave and will take shavings that will rival any of the smoothers I've just mentioned and its a joy to use! Cost wise, it was less than the LN Boggs models. Yeah the Boggs will probably do the same thing--but will they tell you a story well you are using them? Will they have the floral casting that is so nice to look at and guides your hand into the right holding position?

So to conclude: buy em' all, but use them!

Merry Christmas to all of you and to your family! Live like we're supposed to and be extra nice to someone today. Want to feel the holiday spirit a few days longer? Be nice to someone a few days extra!

[JayStPeter]

I think the creek is split on this issue. I'll say that I like my newer planes better than the old because they have less backlash in the adjustment mechanisms. I find it much faster to remove the iron for sharpening then get it back into adjustment on the LV, then LN. I also have both bedrock and bailey stanleys. All are capable of working well once adjusted, but the backlash and chipbreakers make it much more difficult. I will sell some of them once replaced with LV/LNs. I also plan to try the LN improved chipbreaker on my 605 to see if that alone helps.

[Tyler Howell]

For fit, finish, out of the box "plug and play the LN/LV era planes are winners hands down.
For adventure, discovery, personal growth and strong connection with the past, the rust hunt is a very important part of my WW history.
The people I met and stories shared during the rust hunt are priceless.

If you want transparent gossamer shavings they both will do the job.
The oldies, your going to have earn them

[Clinton Findlay]

Is it riskly buying an old plane judging by just pictures, are some going to be impossible to properly tune ?

The link to Brass City Records (and the other on-line sellers that you'll find through a search here) will give you access to decent old planes that you will be able to tune up... removing the risk you mention.
My opinion is that unless the plane is broken/damaged, then it can be tuned, unless it is of the type that has the pressed steel frog. The caveat is that you buy planes from the major makers and not the cheap 'handyman' types. Some reliable brands are, any pre-WWII, Stanley, Sargent, Miller Falls, Ohio, Record... to name a few.


Are the newer planes, LN,LV really that much better then
a properly tuned old planes.

An emotive argument, made more so by the expense and emotion invested in LN and to a lesser degree LV. From somone who has both, although I have many more old planes, I will say is that you can tune an old plane to work just as well. In fact, after tuning an old plane you will know it so well that you just might make it work better, through you knowledge and familiarity.
LV's BU/LA planes have the bevel up design that allows you to take advantage of changing the bevel angle, as well as a few other innovations that are very good.
This consideration ... is the innovation found in a LV something that I consider value for $.... is one to think about.

The opinion offered by Mike, that the difference really is about time and $, is spot on. I'll add .... that by tuning an old plane you will develop a valuable knowledge and familiarity that will serve you well in the use of the tool. After all, knowing how your tool works is important.

At the end of the day, the old plane can be sold for its original cost if you don't like it.

[Billy Chambless]

In fact, after tuning an old plane you will know it so well that you just might make it work better, through you knowledge and familiarity.
...
I'll add .... that by tuning an old plane you will develop a valuable knowledge and familiarity that will serve you well in the use of the tool. After all, knowing how your tool works is important.



I agree strongly with that. Having just recently gotten serious about handplanes, my experience has been that the process of tuning an old plane requires me to stop and think about what, exactly, a plane does, and how it does it. For the way I want to approach woodworking, that's a good thing, but it might not be for everybody.

[Dan Forman]

I have and enjoy both new and old. One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned is type of wood that you will be using. One of the main advantages of the bevel up planes by LV and LN, are that they work better with ill behaved woods, such as highly figured maple, and some of the tropicals that are prone to tearout. This is due to being able to use higher cutting angles by simply changing blades, and also closing the adjustable mouth to a few thousanths of an inch.

The risk of starting with an old plane, is that you may become frustrated if you can't get it tuned properly, and give up. Or you may get it to 50% performance, and accept that as your standard, having nothing to compare it to.

If you start with a high quality plane, you may never be curious enough to learn any more about them. I'm with Tyler, the rust hunt is a significant part of the enjoyment of woodworking, old and well used tools have a certain attraction, but I would never give up my LV bevel up family either.

Dan

[Kermit Hodges]

So my question is, Are the newer planes, LN,LV really that much better then a properly tuned old planes.
No, properly tuned being the key word there. Personal preferences may make one better liked by someone or more comfortable, but they will all the do a very similar job.


Is it riskly buying an old plane judging by just pictures,
It depends. I am assuming we are talking Ebay for course.

The best advice I have is buy from someone that knows what he is selling. I would rather pay a bit more and buy from someone that knows his tools and knows what is wrong. But I have bought several from someone that didn't know what it was they were selling to. So far so good, just realize there is a risk there.


are some going to be impossible to properly tune ?
I would say no or extremly rare, assuming good brands and no damage. If you get one that is damage or has the wrong parts, thats another story. Thats where the good sellers are worth a little extra to me.

Someone mentioned Brass City Records (http://www.brasscityrecords.com/). That would be Walt Q. He is straight up, super honest fellow to deal with. He hangs out at Woodnet forum in the Hand Tools section. I have known Walt for several years and bought a few things from him. If he says it's in good shape you can bank on it. He knows his tools and is fair on his prices. I would rather deal with Walt than about anyone I know.

Now, to be fair there are several guys on Woodnet forum that trade tools and are just as trust worthy! I have bought from several of these guys with nothing but good to say. Walt, however is amazing at finding qualty old tools.