Festool Domino

[Nate Rogers]

Hello All!!

I was just on FWW's website and noticed they had a review of the Festool Domino...I must be living in the dark because I had never heard of this thing before. I have never been a huge fan of "loose tenons" but this thing intrigues me, it would be most usefull on small tables, doors and especially CHAIRS!!! Holly Crap my mind is spinning with ideas...It could reduce production time waaaay down on all kinds of projects. I would love to hear what you all think of this thing.

Nate

[Jim Becker]

Here's a recent thread about this extremely interesting tool:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=47516&highlight=Domino

Note that all of the major publications just had folks attend what effectively was a "Euro tour" of tool companies, including Festool, so there is quite a bit in the press about Domino. The tool is tentatively slated to enter the US market later in the Spring of 2007.

[Dan Clark]

The Domi should be here in April, 2007.

Here's a Australian dealer with some interesting details - includes brochures, customer usage, and Interactive Product Tour:
http://www.idealtools.com.au/category3919_1.htm

If you don't have a dealer close to you, you might want to check out Bob Marino. He's a highly regarded online American Festool dealer: http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/

Dan.

[Jim Becker]

Uncle Bob is also an active SMC member.

[John Lucas]

And I posted first of www.woodshopdemos.com use of it last Sunday and should be adding about once a week for a long time. It can do that much.

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-sc-10.htm
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-sc81.jpg

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-sc97.jpg

And this is just for panel glue ups...very accurate and fast but the Domino really will be doing much, much more...and chairs will be job 1...and a cinch for it.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Aside from the obvious comparison to a biscuit cutter, how is this thing better than/different from a plunge router. Is the hand-held speed and agility the major point? Hand-held (to me) isn't exactly a precision-based selling point.

Having said that, this gadget freak is going to get one for sure!!!!!

[Homer Faucett]

Personally, I just don't get the excitement about this tool. If it's priced anything like the other Festool tools, it had better be more useful than my table saw if I would even think about buying it. . . it will likely be more expensive than my table saw.

[Dan Clark]

John,

Ooops... I neglected to reference your website.

John is doing a series on the Domino. From what I've read on the Festool forum, his focus is not on all of the Domino's "neat" features, but what you can do with it. I.e., answers to questions like: Does it work well on real projects? Where will it perform well and not so well? What other tools could it replace well?

My guess is that it can totally replace biscuit joints and dowel joints. Maybe some mortise and tenons joints.

I'm doubtful that it will replace most dovetail joints; the looks and strength of a dovetail joint are hard to beat IMO. OTOH, if you could make a strong Domino joint in a drawer in 1/4 the time of a dovetail joint, we might see fewer dovetails joints in applications where looks were less important.

Just my ever-so-humble opinion.

Dan.

[Dave Falkenstein]

There is an article primarily about the Domino here:

http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/1166225395859.xml

Look at Day 3 for one person's experience with the Domino on a small project.

[Mark Carlson]

I dont have a slot mortiser but I've used every other technique for creating mortice and tenons. Tenons on the table saw, sometimes with a tenoning jig sometimes with a dado, sometimes on a router table. Mortices with a plunge router, sometimes on a router table, and sometimes with a jet mortiser. I havn't done them completly by hand, yet.

If seems like the Domino will replace all of these tools and will do it much faster and probably more accurately. It will also replace my Makita biscuit joiner. Maybe I can sell all this stuff as a down payment on the domino.

~mark

[Jon Eckels]

anyone know how much $ it's going to be?

[Bernhard Lampert]

anyone know how much $ it's going to be?

In Germany it sells for 671 euros, roughly $820. I'll bet it will be around $850 to 900.

Bernhard

[Per Swenson]

Personally

I just can't wait for this tool. I envy Mr. Lucas and

others who have this baby in their hot little hands.

Frankly, I don't care if Festool tacks on another hundred bucks or so,

this way the money worriers, porch, couch and fence sitters will

stay put and Festool won't sell out the first day.

Even so, I am willing to bet the first run will be gone in a week.



Per

[Bob Marino]

In Germany it sells for 671 euros, roughly $820. I'll bet it will be around $850 to 900.

Bernhard

No price is yet 100% set, but will be offered at an introductory price, which is generally about 10% lower than list price. Intro price will probably be in the $700.00's for the tool.

Bob

[Bob Marino]

Personally

I just can't wait for this tool. I envy Mr. Lucas and

others who have this baby in their hot little hands.

Frankly, I don't care if Festool tacks on another hundred bucks or so,

this way the money worriers, porch, couch and fence sitters will

stay put and Festool won't sell out the first day.

Even so, I am willing to bet the first run will be gone in a week.



Per

Per,

Not this time. They will have a huuuuuuuuuuuge inventory on hand come April.

Bob

[Per Swenson]

Thanks Bob,

Good News....


Per

[Jim Becker]

Per, I happened to mention to Bob last night while having an IM chat with him that you should get the first Domino through his dealership...really, I did!

[Mark Riegsecker]

I would like to see this thread go awhile longer. Because I don't see any advantage here with this morticer than what many of us have been doing in the past. I have a mortiser attached to my table saw that I've used for years then make my own tenons according to the size of the mortice.

How is this better than the emello (I know I spelled it wrong). Or the plunge mortisers that have become popular about 5 years ago?

We're not just getting excited because it's Festool are we? If it's that great that everyone should have one, then convince me so I can get one at the introductory discount price.

Mark

[Per Swenson]

Mark,

I use to bring a table saw to my jobs.

No more. (55 and 65)

Every time I make something in the shop and then install it

my profit margin shrinks. But, make it right there, where it goes....

The time savings are enormous. The thinking alone cost me money.

I could go on and on.

But for me and what I do, this is truly revolutionary and I do it each and every day.

Per

[Per Swenson]

Sorry,

Thanks Jim!!!!

P.

[Mike Cutler]

I would like to see this thread go awhile longer. Because I don't see any advantage here with this morticer than what many of us have been doing in the past. I have a mortiser attached to my table saw that I've used for years then make my own tenons according to the size of the mortice.

How is this better than the emello (I know I spelled it wrong). Or the plunge mortisers that have become popular about 5 years ago?

We're not just getting excited because it's Festool are we? If it's that great that everyone should have one, then convince me so I can get one at the introductory discount price.

Mark

Mark.
I'm fairly interested in this tool also. I don't own any Festool products, ergo I have no bias one way or the other. I'm not a fan of loose tenon joinery, but......
It will be interesting to see what folks like Per and his father Bob do with it, and find ways to adapt it to their work. Their work is exceptional, and we'll find out in short order the up and downsides.

I'm also hoping that Mark Singer gets ahold of one.

So Per, get one first and "put the boots to it".;)

[Chris Barton]

I have a few Festools and they are excellent machines. This particular machine looks like it would have lots of application in on site work with trim carpentry and casework and to someone like Per could be a huge cost saver. But, I doubt that it is going to be something that a hobbiest is going to find as attractive. When plate jointers first came out many thought they were the door to the future. I have two, and they spend 99.9% of their time on a shelf.

[Bob Marino]

I have a few Festools and they are excellent machines. This particular machine looks like it would have lots of application in on site work with trim carpentry and casework and to someone like Per could be a huge cost saver. But, I doubt that it is going to be something that a hobbiest is going to find as attractive. When plate jointers first came out many thought they were the door to the future. I have two, and they spend 99.9% of their time on a shelf.


Chris,

I obviously am not the most most objective person regarding the tool, so I will other who use the Domino chime in, but two things.

This tool may, indeed be out of the reach of many hobbyists, much as, the Leigh FMT would also be out of reach.
However, though it shares a similar configuration/appearence and ease of use to a biscuit joiner, it is not just an alignment tool. It has way, way more applications in joinery.

Bob

[Jim Becker]

Mark and Mike...my impression from watching the demo/review at FW is that speed and precision are the key to this tool, and that's important to folks who do cabinetry, etc., for a living. But I think that Bob is correct that this particular tool isn't going to be "big" in the hobbiest market. It will sell there, but largely to the same type of demographic that buys the high-end jigs and other equipment.

I can't say that I'll even buy this particular tool, but I'm extremely impressed with it's design, precision and application and can see how it will kick things up a notch for folks who can benefit from it.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I know some maloof style rocking chair builders who use and like it a lot. I don't think I'll want one.

[Mike Cutler]

Jim.
My last big project had over 400 M&T joints. Even with a dedicated benchtop mortiser the job was very tedious.
There was a lot of "tuning" as the project carried on.
A tool like the Domino would have let me reference everything to the benchtop, and hopefully aleviated some of the tuning, thus saving a lot of time.


I'll let the big boys give the tool a run for it's money, but it could be my first Festool purchase. Ya' never know.;)

[Gary Curtis]

In their book on Joinery, Taunton Press has a 4-page dissertation on floating tenons. They did a followup in the magazine where they did destructive strength testing on dowels, bisuits, loose tenons. Loose tenons are very strong.

Like a clunk, I just bought a Lamello $700 biscuit joiner. I think for sheet goods, it will continue to serve its function. But I want to build furniture, and for that floating tenons are the real answer. As someone mentioned here, the real advantage of the Domino is portability. My friend owns a window/door company and has a few Festool tools. For people in finish carpentry trades (especially flooring), Festool is a gift from heaven.

But I think I'll pass on the Domino since I am just a hobbyist and do everything in my shopl. To take advantage of the Domino technology, I'll use my router (mounted in the WoodRat) to cut the mortises, and then simply buy the loose tenon stock from Festool. I think the challenge for precision with Domino will be to clamp the workpiece while plunging the mortise. That's the challenge with Biscuits, but they allow for some lateral slop in the gluing up. Both pieces joined by the Domino have to be dead on, with no play.

So, added to the $800 for the Domino, throw in another $440+ for the Multi Function Table.

Gary Curtis

[Mitchell Andrus]

That's the challenge with Biscuits, but they allow for some lateral slop in the gluing up. Both pieces joined by the Domino have to be dead on, with no play.

Gary Curtis

If the Festool tenons are too restrictive, We can make our own tenons. We can make our joints as adjustable as they need to be. 1/16" should be plenty.

[Gary Curtis]

Mitchell, the Festool tenons get their strength from having tight-fitting shoulders. It's the cutting of the mortise that would demand exact placement.

Whereas Biscuits allow for a fair amount of lateral play without sacrificing strength. The Lamello machine I have is heavy, it has rubber contact points on the fence, and you only plunge straigth in for a cut. So placement is not a challenge.

The Domino certainly looks beefy, but the joint itself allows no margin for error. Besides, the cutting but oscillates left to right.I'm just thinking that work clamping is going to be an issue.

Maybe the Domino fence has rubber feet or something to minimize movement of the work during the cut. So the portability of the machine is a minus because I'll do everything in my shop. But finish carpenters will love it, I bet.

Gary Curtis

[Bob Childress]

The Domino certainly looks beefy, but the joint itself allows no margin for error.

Not quite true, actually. Only the first mortise has to be exact. There is an adjustment on the Domino that then allows the remaining mortises to be cut slightly oversize (laterally) for an accurate fit. In fact, Festool recommend using it that way.

I should think clamping would be no more difficult than clamping to use a biscuit joiner.

[Bob Marino]

Not quite true, actually. Only the first mortise has to be exact. There is an adjustment on the Domino that then allows the remaining mortises to be cut slightly oversize (laterally) for an accurate fit. In fact, Festool recommend using it that way.

I should think clamping would be no more difficult than clamping to use a biscuit joiner.

Bob,

Exactly correct.

Bob

[Dave Falkenstein]

One of the big advantages of the Domino as I see it, and as reported by some test users, is the advantage of taking the tool to the work, rather than handling the material to cut mortises. On large pieces of material, the ability to locate mortises accurately and manipulate a relatively small tool to cut the mortises seems to be a great way to do the job. Much of Festool's sucess is related to the concept of taking the tool to the work, in addition to portability.

[Bob Smalser]

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-sc81.jpg

Many of us have been cutting this joint ever since the advent of good plunge routers almost 40 years ago.

Cobble a jig with stops or merely use the router's fence to cut the mortises.....rip and thickness the tenon stock.....then use a simple roundover bit to finish the tenons and cut them to length.

No need I can see to buy from the current record holders for ridiculously-priced tools.

[Don Dean]

I have had my eye on the Leigh MT jig until I have seen demos on the Festool Domino. Understanding that the Domino will not be out until April 1, what advantages and disadvantages do you believe one would have over the other (other than price). Would like to hear form everyone but especially Leigh MT owners and Bob Marino.

[Per Swenson]

That is true Mr, Smalser.

but also 40 years ago the pocket calculator was not invented

and math was done with pencil and paper. The Beatles released

I want to hold your hand, and there was still peace on college campuses.

We, I believe, have come a long way since. And so have methods of work.

I am in this for the money, you may scoff at the demise of craftsmanship

and chuckle at the latest overpriced fad and rightly so for your applications.

I have followed your work and your writing. But to use a cliche, I think you

have brought a knife to a gunfight in this instance.


Respectfully

Per

[Bob Smalser]

I think you have brought a knife to a gunfight in this instance.


Three solid pages of sales pitch and fawning, and nobody has even seen the tool yet.

Maybe it is me that needs the reality check. ;)

[Bob Childress]

Three solid pages of sales pitch and fawning, and nobody has even seen the tool yet.

Also not quite true. The North American market is among the very last to see the Domino. In Europe and the Far East and Australia they have been using it for more than a year, perhaps longer. I have done the research all over the globe. I know what others are doing with it. It is not a glorified biscuit joiner. It is not a fad or a gimmick. It is the real deal.

The slogan for Packard Motor Cars used to be: "Ask the man that owns one." Good advice. :)

[Jim Becker]

Be nice, folks... ;)

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Dan Lautner]

I have seen this tool in action. Mark my words "every cabinet shop will have one of these within a year”. This will not be an easy tool to knock off due to it's unique cutter action and the flawless build quality not to mention patents.

Dan

[John Lucas]

Wow, is there a lot of heat in this post. I will first say, Marry Christmas and Happy Holidays.
Now, as one who has a couple of hundred hours with the Domino Joinery System...it is a real nice tool. Can't do everything; can do a lot. When I first started to review it, I thought of it in terms of methods and tools it would replace. One such was or is the Leigh M & T JIg. That is a real nice tool. It costs about the same as the Domino but is very different. There are joints that the Leigh will do and the Domino will not. And visa versa. It took me sometime to get to the point where I do NOT ttry to compare it tool for tool. But I do enjoy looking at woodworking in a new way. Here's wahat I mean.
Take the basic kitchen base cabinet. You have your way to make it so that it works, is strong and yet easy to produce. In my case, I find that I dado the bottom floor/shelf in place then glue and obliquely nail. The back, I rabbet, glue and nail, the cross members and corner blocks, much the same. I know that many do it differently but I want to build strength into the unit, so this is mine "plain vanilla" approach. I have used the offset tongue and groove with pocket screws that Marc Sommerfeld was promoting. I liked it but it had some shortcomings... doweling, the same thing. Using the Miller Dowel, the same. So when I look at the base cabinet as a whole series of steps, it was easier for me to see using the Festool Domino Joinery System.
There was a comment about the tenons being so tight fitting that assembly would be difficult. And I think this was corrected by those who pointed out that you only make one mortise of a series tight and the others can be cut with some side-to-side play. (also great way for handling seasonal expansion/contraction of wood.)
I haven't yet found anything to dislike with the Domino. When I look at our work in term of the broader picture, I find that the Domino can really excel. Take for example a simple bedside table. The top pieces can be Domino'd for panel glue up. If that were only use, I would stay with biscuits.) The breadboard ends can use Dominos and only the center Domino be exact fit. The aprons to legs can be using Dominos and maybe multiple rows if size permits...certainly the 10mm Dominos would do very well. If there is a bottom stretch and cross shelf...Domino's and the drawer can be Domino'd versa dovetails, unless aesthetics are the call. Actually, I am now making drawers with Walnut Domino tenons...easy to make and I cut them "through" so the neat ovals show.
As I have said, I have had a few hundred hours with the new tool and have done a lot, but haven't come close to all that it can do. My suggestion to all keep an open mind and consider it like any other tool that comes on the market and how you can use it to do a better, more efficient and cost effective way. It is not an expensive tool if it can allow you to do your job better and more efficiently.
A happy new year to you all.

[Glen Blanchard]

Gosh. Some passionate opinions indeed. They say "50" is the new "40". My question on this wonderful Christmas eve is, "Is the Festool Domino the new SawStop?" :eek::eek:

[Gary Keedwell]

I have seen this tool in action. Mark my words "every cabinet shop will have one of these within a year”. This will not be an easy tool to knock off due to it's unique cutter action and the flawless build quality not to mention patents.

Dan
I can understand a cabinet shop, where the quantity is more important than the quality, purchasing this "new" tool. I really don't see it in my future because I'm only a hobbyist who makes a few things each year.
Since this forum has both "pros" and hobbyists, there is going to be a difference of opinions on the merits of this offering from the popular ( on this forum, anyways) manufacturer, Festool. ( which I understand, has a cult like following).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that some tools are really made for manufacturing and some are really made for the occasional woodworker and there is a gray zone in between.

Gary K.

[Clinton Findlay]

there is a significant amount of threads on the Festool Domino in the Ubeaut forum, if you are interested.

xxxx

The Domino caused pages and pages of similiar argument on the ubeaut site, and what the arguments came down to were:
Against - its too expensive,
For - precision, repeatabilty, speed, adaptability, portability, value for $ (in that in a commercial operation it pays for itself very quickly)

One thing is for sure, those that buy it are going to swear by it.

It may be worth a look at the threads in this site....


Cheers,
Clinton

[Nate Rogers]

Wow, I guess I really started something here didn't I...I have done some more research on this tool since my original post..My opinion has not changed much, I find this tool to be quite interesting, lots of options for chairs and of course doors. Can't really see using it for heavy duty joinery, but I can see it for many other uses. As for all the comments about the cost, I can see your points..but for me it seems far more wastefull to spend 300$ on a absolute piece of junk, 1000$ for a tool that will last and hold it's value..That just doesn't bother me.. I will say that this probably is not a tool for a hobbyist, it just doesn't make much sense. But if you do any production work, I see it as a must have. I don't sell a lot of stuff, I am kinda stuck between a hobbyist and a pro..But I will definately place my order in the spring.

Nate

[Dan Lautner]

[QUOTE=Gary Keedwell][B]I can understand a cabinet shop, where the quantity is more important than the quality, purchasing this "new" tool.


The quality of the floating tenon from the Domino is flawless. So the fact that you could assemble 10 joints in the same time it would take to change your router bit is nothing short of revolutionary. So if you want to spend more time making furniture or casework and less time fussing with making strong joints then buy one.

Dan

[Bob Smalser]

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=28038

This tool does look spiffy. But the video above, shows a box of 1000 assorted tenons and the four sizes of bits for $200 over the basic price. So, with tax and or shipping it's close to a $1000 to get started. Also remember that Fein and Festool replacement parts are also costly, and there are some horror stories out there in the boatbuilding community on what parts breakage costs per linear foot of billable work.

There are stationary horizontal slot mortisers for little more money, that have much greater capacity for the small commercial shop:

http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/slot_mortisers.php

[Dan Lautner]

"There are stationary horizontal slot mortisers for little more money, that have much greater capacity for the small commercial shop"

Now we have come to the real essence of the matter. The Rojek is the cheapest stand alone slot mortiser. It has a small table and a stationary head. To get into a more capable machine with a moving head you are in the $4500 plus range (Felder Laguna).


Slot mortiser advantages:

1. capacity of mortise

Domino Advantages:

1. Speed
2. no need to support long or heavy pieces on a small moving table
3. Domino can be taken to the job or anywhere you want to work

For large scale work the slot mortiser seems to be the only quick method
for making loose tenons. But for everything else I don't see how you can
beat the Domino.

Dan

[Bob Smalser]

... I don't see how you can
beat the Domino.

Dan

Sure you can.

Like the Lamello plate joiner rage way back when, all you have to do it wait for the patent to expire and all the other tool makers to fall all over themselves making knockoffs. ;)

And a stick too large to take to a stationary machine is a joint that requires a larger tenon than this tool will produce.

[Gary Keedwell]

Sure you can.

Like the Lamello plate joiner rage way back when, all you have to do it wait for the patent to expire and all the other tool makers to fall all over themselves making knockoffs. ;)

And a stick too large to take to a stationary machine is a joint that requires a larger tenon than this tool will produce.
LOL Bob, you crack me up. That was the first laugh I had tonite. You might be a prophet....ten years from now alot of people might have dusty old dominos collecting dust in the corner next to the bisquit joiner. lol Now where did I put my Hula-hoop?
Gary K.

[Jim Becker]

Now where did I put my Hula-hoop?


There are two of them on our patio...one red; one silver... :D

[James Biddle]

You gotta love this forum. With each post, I tip a little to each side of the fence as each poster makes a compelling argument.

Assuming the benefits of the Domino are as claimed (maybe a little overdone, but probably very close), I'm trying to answer whether I would like to throw my mortise & tenon $$'s into the Festool corner? (Disclosure: I'm somewhat of a Festool hound.)

From what I'm reading, the only thing a FMT (a heavy player in this discussion) may have over the Domino is the accuracy on an end mortise, but that might be overcome by a simple jig for the Domino (I've used the FMT several times and love it).

I worry less and less about the initial cost, because I'm finding over and over that it doesn't really pay. The cost of upgrading is more than offset by buying quality at the onset. Lets face it, I'm not going to sell my Kreg pocket hole setup, and I'm not going to get rid of my PC biscuit joiner either, in the event I buy a Domino. I'm ging to keep them for the occaisional use that they'll continue to provide. So, is it worth it to upgrade to a Domino and not buy a slot mortiser or FMT or such? The price isn't significantly differerent between the Domino, FMT, or a slot mortiser, is it?

The question is: which one works best for me, 'cause I only want to buy one?

[Mike Cutler]

The question is: which one works best for me, 'cause I only want to buy one?

James. In all honesty there isn't just one. With the exception of the Mortise Chisel, Swan Neck Chisel, and the Bench Mallet. There are many ways, and techniques to make the M&T joint.

This is a tool that will fill a specific need for certain individuals, as did the slot mortiser. If used within it's designed parameters, I'm certain that custom folks, like Per and his Father, will realize a definable return in $$$ and time. To be able to slot mortise, and fit on the jobsite will be of great value. Kind of like a belt sander, or a palm sander. A regular sanding block does the same thing, one is just faster. The Festool will allow for greater on the jobsite reaction. Fewer trips back to the shop.

For someone like Bob Smalser? Maybe he would find a use for it, but most of Bob's stuff, that he has presented, is too big for a Domino. Possibly too big for a slot mortiser also. He deals with some heavy timbers, and boatbulding.
I'm looking forward to seeing the Domino, and what folks can do with it. I couldn't justify the cost of the FMT, so I don't think I'll be able to justify the cost of the Domino. It sure looks nice for cabinet making though. Maybe someday.;)

Anyone else notice that there has been a lot of discussion on M&T joints and methods lately. I think folks are looking to up the craftsmanship of their work.:)

[Dan Clark]

Many of us have been cutting this joint ever since the advent of good plunge routers almost 40 years ago.

Cobble a jig with stops or merely use the router's fence to cut the mortises.....rip and thickness the tenon stock.....then use a simple roundover bit to finish the tenons and cut them to length.

No need I can see to buy from the current record holders for ridiculously-priced tools.

Bob,

If you have the time, space, and inclination to "cobble together" something... Have at it.

Unfortunately, I don't. I'm a contractor. (But not one having anything remotely to do with working with wood.) Like all contractors, TIME IS MONEY!

I have NO time available to "cobble together" anything. If it's trivial, then maybe. If it's for one time use, then maybe. But trying to make my own unique tool for a major project or repeated use is a waste of time and money for me.

Regarding Festool being overpriced, I disagree pretty strongly. Expensive? Yes. But you get value for your money. And their products work well as a system. And dust control is excellent. This is value for me.

What is overpriced is a lot of the cheap junk sold by the local BORG. What absolutely amazes me is the number of people who "gloat" about picking up a cheap tool at a cheap price. Then a few weeks later they are in a forum complaining that it doesn't work very well, or breaks down, or they have to fiddle with it constantly to make it work. That's overpriced. That's wasting time and money.

Dan.

[Dan Lautner]

"And a stick too large to take to a stationary machine is a joint that requires a larger tenon than this tool will produce."


Ok you got me there Bob. But Festool's sister company can cover you on the big stuff. But if you don't like the Festool pricing then protool and Mafell might not be for you either.

53429

Dan

[Bob Smalser]

Unfortunately, I don't. I'm a contractor. (But not one having anything remotely to do with working with wood.) Like all contractors, TIME IS MONEY!



http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/216362645.jpg

For floating tenons, if your typical cabinet door or panel uses a 2" rail on one end of the door and a 3" rail on the other end, that's a whopping number of 4 jigs you have to build once per router purchase. Less than that if you stick with the same router base size. Money is also money.

But if your methods of work make the Festool pay for itself, then by all means go for it. Just avoid the chorus of marketeers telling weekend woodworkers they can't live without one. As many as Norm sells when he eventually features them, you can trust the price won't go down until the patent expires.

http://www.leighjigs.com/images/producthead-fmt2.gif

900 bucks for one of these to replace those same 4 jigs doesn't make much sense to me, either.

But you never know...maybe I just did fall off the turnip truck after all. ;)

[Bob Swenson]

Bob; I will be 102 years old when the patent on the Domino runs
out, I don’t think I want to wait that long for an almost like it tool.
I hope Per put the order in.
Old ten finger BOB.

[Gary Keedwell]

Hope everybody had a great Christmas. I still say were talking apples (hobbyists) and oranges (pro's) with the new offering from Festfool.
As a hobbyist and a guy who appreciates nice tools, I will purchase a Festool product if I find that they make something I need and it is better then their competition. I have their cordless drill (15.6) and love playing around with it. I like showing the chucks to friends. Very well made.
I am thinking about the sanders...for health reasons. I thought about (for one minute) the circular saw with the guide, but decided to keep breaking down sheet goods my old way.
As for the latest offering (domino) I see absolutely no reason to purchase it. But remember, I'm only in this for the fun and relaxation this hobby offers me. I think that it could benefit the production workers who do this to make money, though.
Just my 2 cents...
Gary K.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

"And a stick too large to take to a stationary machine is a joint that requires a larger tenon than this tool will produce."


Yah that's one of the objections I had when I saw it working. They choose the size of yout joint components for you and that does not sit well with me.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Who is going to get one at the $700.00 introductory price?

It's a cute gadget. It places a very precise slot at exactly the angle you set it for in a stick of wood and it'll do it over and over.

What I don't like are :
1.) the price

2.) the fact that some German engineer is choosing the size and shape of your joint components (that just doesn't work for me).

3.) The fact that no matter how good they make the thing (and they do make it well) it is absolutely impossible to get a long duty life from a pack of teeny tiny gears and bearings unless you somehow limit the stresses the gadget will encounter. I don't know if that's possible for a wood working machine. And this gadget does a lot more than simply spin round like a rounter. It plunges and sweeps side to side while spinning round. That is one huge amount of mechanical activity going on in such a tiny package. I can't see this gadget lasting more than a year and a half tops.

4.) The fact that the joint component size is limited and not expandable.

[Bob Childress]

Who is going to get one at the $700.00 introductory price?

Me. I already sent my order to Uncle Bob Marino. :)

[Gary Keedwell]

Me. I already sent my order to Uncle Bob Marino. :)Maybe I'll order one.....My biscut joiner is getting lonely...all by itself in the corner.

Gary K.

[Rich Stevens]

From what I'm reading, the only thing a FMT (a heavy player in this discussion) may have over the Domino is the accuracy on an end mortise, but that might be overcome by a simple jig for the Domino (I've used the FMT several times and love it).

I worry less and less about the initial cost, because I'm finding over and over that it doesn't really pay. The cost of upgrading is more than offset by buying quality at the onset.

So, is it worth it to upgrade to a Domino and not buy a slot mortiser or FMT or such? The price isn't significantly differerent between the Domino, FMT, or a slot mortiser, is it?

The question is: which one works best for me, 'cause I only want to buy one?

James,

Here's my 5 cents worth...

I live in Australia. I bought my Domino a few months ago after what seemed like an eternity trying to decide if I could justify spending close to A$1600 (approx US$1200) getting the full Domino kit. Some of you guys in the US will face this challenge also.

Aside from cost, what I feared most was whether after spending this amount of money the Domino would end up living its life on a shelf like a workshop queen and doing little. Well, that would depend on how much woodwork I do, I guess.

Lets set a few things straight - I am a hobby woodworker and I am painfully anal retentive when it comes to fit and finish. I will go to the far corners of the world for a magical solution if there's one. In the end, I decided the Domino was one such cause worth pursuing.

Pre-Domino, my joinery arsenal consisted of a Felder mortiser, Lamello and JDS Multi Router. Post Domino, I now have the JDS Multi Router only (and its going to stay). The Felder Mortiser (or any mortiser for that matter) has its pros and cons - the major advantage is capacity. Major disadvantage is precision and flexibility. I got rid of it when I sold my Felder combo. I also got rid of the Lamello due to alignment problems - I dunno, for some reason I could never get two mating surfaces of the same thickness to be perfectly flush. For this reason it ended up being a workshop queen. When news of the Domino started to spread, I decided it was time for the Lamello to go (and what a great decision it was - sold it for the same price I bought it years ago). The biggest loser out of all of this will be Lamello as the Domino is striking at the heart of the Lamello strength - quick joinery. But the Domino does a whole lot more.

Why have I kept my JDS Multi Router? Simple - precision. I have produced compound joint mortise and tenons only metal working machinery could ever challenge (if I wasn't so lazy, I would post a few pics of some I've done). The Multi Router can't be beat when it comes to chair making. Don't be fooled - I wouldn't trust the Domino to do ALL joints in a chair as the loads and stresses are extreme in some key areas (eg back legs to side rails). In other areas, the Domino would certainly help speed things up a little - eg back rest slats.

The Multi Router also has the advantage of larger milling capacity - excellent for large joints - eg tables, doors etc

So, what do I like about the Domino so far. First and foremost, accuracy; followed by speed of execution. The fit is generally piston tight and alignment is at least 95% or better (remember I am an alignment freak, therefore very biased). For case work, the Domino has been been excellent - I now have much more confidence when it comes to flat panel work and have decided to have a go at building a AV wall unit in the new year. I wouldn't have done so with the Lamello.

Does it still hurt having paid so much for the Domino? - yes, it does, but the pain is fading. Each time I use it and I get the outcome I want, huge slabs of pain wash away. For professional shops, the first couple of jobs will pay for this baby. A friend of mine who does custom mill work bought one months ahead of me after being given a one on one demo by the Festool rep said that this single device improved his workshop productivity by at least 15% because of its accuracy and repeatability. The first job he did using the Domino paid for itself. He now uses nearly one thousand Dominos biscuits every month or so. Yes, it does get a workout. Lamello - what Lamello? He sold his too.

HTH

Richard
;)

[Mitchell Andrus]

Who is going to get one at the $700.00 introductory price?

It's a cute gadget. It places a very precise slot at exactly the angle you set it for in a stick of wood and it'll do it over and over.

What I don't like are :
1.) the price

Agreed, but if it doesn't do well at $700 - 800.00, the price will drop. I'm sure there's room.

2.) the fact that some German engineer is choosing the size and shape of your joint components (that just doesn't work for me).

Not so. Three widths of joints and (I think) three thickness tenons... Plus, I 'm sure you'll be able to move the cutter along the piece and run a slot as long as you need, just make a tenon to match.

3.) The fact that no matter how good they make the thing (and they do make it well) it is absolutely impossible to get a long duty life from a pack of teeny tiny gears and bearings unless you somehow limit the stresses the gadget will encounter. I don't know if that's possible for a wood working machine. And this gadget does a lot more than simply spin round like a rounter. It plunges and sweeps side to side while spinning round. That is one huge amount of mechanical activity going on in such a tiny package. I can't see this gadget lasting more than a year and a half tops.

Agreed, for a very busy pro shop, it'll last a few years assuming replacement parts are available. I'd also like to know the cost of the cutting bits/primary gears/motor brushes, etc., before I buy one. The lateral load at the tip must be imense.

Of course, if you're contemplating this much activity to make joints, you need to head over to the hollow chisel machine. Once stops are set, I can fly through a hundred mortises and then cut a hundred tenons at the TS in about an hour. - No need to wear out the Domino.

4.) The fact that the joint component size is limited and not expandable.

Like biscuits and dowells, these joints may be stagered top to bottom and left/right to cover a very large jointed area.




I think this is a mid-level tool. Too costly for the amatuers, too fragile for the really busy shops. I'll be getting one, for sure for I am a gadget freak.

[Dave Falkenstein]

...I can't see this gadget lasting more than a year and a half tops...

Cliff - No problem. Even if your prediction were to come true, all Festool power tools are guaranteed for 3 years.

[Rick Christopherson]

It cracks me up to read these threads. The most vocal and opinionated postings are coming from those that have never even seen a picture of the Domino, and in some cases don’t even know what it does, let alone ever tried one. Some people are saying that it’s a bad tool because it is not accurate, then others are saying that it’s a bad tool because it’s too accurate. Then comes my all time favorite, someone is willing to spend $700 on a Lamello biscuit joiner, but wouldn’t dream of spending the same $700 on a tenon joiner because it's not as strong. As I was sitting back reading all of these postings I couldn’t help but wonder how many of these same woodworkers owned one of those pretty rosewood handled squares or marking gauges that adorn so many woodshops, and sell for $200.

This Domino thing, It’s the Debil’s work... the Debil’s work, I tell you!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
==========================
As some of you may know, I am building a $15,000 dining room table. The precision is so tight on this table that I am holding most components to a few thousandths inch tolerance, and angular tolerances are also as low as a few thousandths of a degree. (yes, this is machine-grade tolerances on a woodworking project--and they need to be too.)

This morning I needed to glue up the extensions for the octagonal feet on the base. It’s too long of a story to explain why I needed the composite construction shown below, but suffice it to say that without having a Domino, I couldn’t have made this glueup in a reasonable time. (and if someone is stupid enough to tell me that biscuits would have been just fine, I am going to beat you senseless with an engineering slide rule. Yes, senseless!) :mad:

In the glueup below, I have 6 tenons per side, for 8 sides. That’s 96 mortises and 48 tenons. The core material is 2-inch thick high-density maple plywood, and the extensions are from solid mahogany. This will all be skinned with Ribbon Striped African Mahogany veneer in a radial pattern (hence the need for the glueup). ...(Oh, and if someone tells me that a single large tenon would be better or stronger, I'll be using the same slide rule to beat you as well, and maybe a bit more.):(

I used the 10 x 50 mm (3/8" x 2") tenons separated by 10 mm vertically (for strength) and staggered across the width of each segment. The final joints are so close to flush that all I will need to do is hit them with my scraper to flush them up. (Although for precision, I will probably run the whole thing through the widebelt sander.)

http://waterfront-woods.home.att.net/tempgraphics/BaseDomino-lo.jpg


The final table is going to be in the 400 pound range, and these 8 joints are going to be supporting the entire thing. Needless to say, these joints are critical. Normally I would never have dreamed of gluing up an octagon in segments like this because the compounding errors would be too high by the time I got to the last pair of segments. However, with the accuracy of Domino, I was able to glue up each pair separately, and when I got to the last pair of segments, I only needed to trim 0.001 to 0.002 inch to get them to fit!
http://waterfront-woods.home.att.net/tempgraphics/BaseGlueup.jpg


This picture is the dry-fit I did before gluing.

http://waterfront-woods.home.att.net/tempgraphics/dryfit.jpg


For reference, this is the SolidWorks model view of the final pedestal. The sape of the base should explain why the odd-shaped segments were used, as shown above. As soon as I am done typing this message, I need to head down to the shop and bandsaw the shape of the base to the profile shown.
http://waterfront-woods.home.att.net/tempgraphics/colonnade.jpg

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Rick,

This table needs its own thread.

I have no doubt that for those that put this tool to work it will make them money.

[Gary Keedwell]

Rick C.


And your point is? The consensus is that it will probably help SOME people to make money. What alot of the people you criticize are saying is that for the average woodworker, it would probably be a huge waste of resources. At $700-800 plus a few for the tenons and other expenses for this new tool, your talking over one thousand dollars.


Again were talking apples ( hobbyist) and oranges ( pro's). The hobbyists shouldn't be so critical if the pro's buy it to make money and the pro's shouldn't critisize us hobbyists if we think that it is an unnecessary tool for us to enjoy our hobby.
So I ask again....what is your point?

Gary K.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Rick C.


And your point is? The consensus is that it will probably help SOME people to make money. What alot of the people you criticize are saying is that for the average woodworker, it would probably be a huge waste of resources. At $700-800 plus a few for the tenons and other expenses for this new tool, your talking over one thousand dollars.


Again were talking apples ( hobbyist) and oranges ( pro's). The hobbyists shouldn't be so critical if the pro's buy it to make money and the pro's shouldn't critisize us hobbyists if we think that it is an unnecessary tool for us to enjoy our hobby.
So I ask again....what is your point?

Gary K.

Gary - Kindly speak for yourself and not the rest of us. I have followed this thread and see no "consensus". I suspect that there will be lots of hobbyists that will find this new tool both useful and affordable, and perhaps even a necessary addition to their workshop.

[Rick Christopherson]

Gary,
If the only argument that was being levied was over cost (e.g. pro versus hobby), I wouldn’t have wasted the energy in making my posting. It doesn’t take 70 postings in this thread to state that the Domino is an expensive tool.

I made my posting because some of the statements and wild speculation was getting ridiculous. People were making “absolute” statements about the tool that they not only didn’t know anything about, but were in fact 180 degrees opposite to the facts.

I could care less if someone doesn’t like the tool--I don’t make any money from its sale. But the most laughable statements in this thread are those that claim this tool won’t go any where. Domino wasn’t delayed getting to the U.S. market because Festool was afraid it wouldn’t sell. It was delayed because the sales have been so high that production cannot keep up with demand Internationally. (Festool has been building inventory for months to support the U.S. market.)

How’s that saying go? “I got mine. You’re on your own.” Festool is not worried that this tool won’t sell. They are worried that it will sell too well!!! Six months ago Festool asked that I stop making any Internet postings about Domino. Not because they were afraid it would hurt sales, but because they were afraid it would create a frenzy to get the tool before it was available.

I’ve used this tool. I know what it can do. I can assure you, it will take a healthy chunk out of the existing market. If you can’t afford it, you won’t buy it. But I’ve got two biscuit joiners that are going on Craig’s List for sale.

[Dan Lautner]

"And your point is?"

This tool is simply amazing. The Domino allows you to quickly make super accurate rock solid joints. I think in the end this tool will prove to be every bit as valuable as the festool guided rail and saw. If your goal is to collect tools and big cast Iron equipment to make birdhouses then maybe the Domino is not for you. If your goal is to build quality furniture and cabinets and get them done efficiently this tool is a must have. The price is a non issue if it saves time and improves workflow.

Dan

[Stephen McClaren]

Hey, looks like a neat tool.

Followed the links, I really like the "woodshopdemos" site, great info there.

In reference to the delay in getting the tool to the US -- In looking at the wood mag link I came across this:

"it's been small, since resolved UL issues that have helped limit the Domino's availability for the last year."

So, on top of the international demand, they had to get the gov. Ok as well.

To me It seems like a really nice biscuit jointer with pins on each side to help with alignment (although super precise German alignment pins I'm sure). Unless they have the paten on spring pins I don't see why someone could not make a tool that does the same thing for a lot less money. Which might be another reason not to introduce it to the US market out of the gate.

If it sells like everyone thinks, there will be 5 companies in the next 5 years coming out with comparable units, no need to wait till we are all 90. If it's that good and the patens are that tight, they would make more licensing the patens to a company that can produce the quantities that the market requires than they would producing the units themselves. I'm holding out for the 18v Firestorm version myself
:D

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary - Kindly speak for yourself and not the rest of us. I have followed this thread and see no "consensus". I suspect that there will be lots of hobbyists that will find this new tool both useful and affordable, and perhaps even a necessary addition to their workshop.
David....I stand corrected...there will be alot of hobbyists who will purchase this tool. Like the poster previous said about expensive machinery and birdhouses....

I guess I was only referring to the practical and money conscience people who only do woodworking to relax and put their mind away from the everyday turmoils we face. I guess there are hobbyists who work in a frenzy and want to produce tons of furniture....I just don't know of any personally.

You know of the old saying about producing a product that people didn't really know they needed....

Gaty K.

[Chris Barton]

I've watched this thread with a little interest but, there seems to be a certain religous "flair" to the diametrically opposed sides of this discussion. The more I look at the Domino the more I wonder how it is different than a fancy dowling jig? It seems to me that a Dowelmax jig could do everything this will do...

[Mitchell Andrus]

I agree. There are a few of us who will NEED this tool. Excuse me while I change my drool bib.

The one advantage I can see is the 'slight' ability to add a bit of wiggle room into the technique. If I find the joints to be too unforgiving, I'll gladly make my own tenons to allow a 1/16" lateral adjustment - something you can't do with dowels.

[Mark Singer]

I think if you are doing production work....it makes sense to have the Domino. If you are a hobbiest , the challenge of making fine joinery is a big part of the fun of woodworking. With the domino, I suspect, woodworkers will design furniture around using the tool.....more hidden joinery etc. There are many gagets that truly save time that I personally am not that interested in. I have a Bisquit Joiner and rarely use it....once in a while its handy. The Kreg jig I use very often ....it really seems to help on lower level finish projects, like my production quality cabinets. For shops...this looks like a great tool. I like to size my mortises ....lay them out by hand and cut them in a practicle way....usually my slot mortiser. I don't think this tool will improve my woodworking skills much....and for new woodworkers that are just starting to learn to make joints.....they may just never learn the traditional technques, which are so important in almost every project....At a woodworking show....I tend to walk by all the "slice'um and dice'um booths filled with new gagets...many tasks can be done as easily with a shop made jig and a bit of creativity....this Domino lands somewhere in between for me...I will not be running out and buying one....I am still learning to improve my hand cut dovetails...with that never ending task in front of me, I may not have time for the Domino.....or once I see one ....I may have to have it....nah:confused:

[Mitchell Andrus]

Chris, I agree. A dowelling jig gets you to the finish line.

But, assuming there is a little lateral play in the Domino's joint, running a few tenons down a board can be done with pencil marks, as with biscuits.

I have yet to see a run of dowels line up properly just on pencil marks, there just isn't enough play to account for the slight fudge factor. The dowelmax is one of the best out there, but look at all of the fiddling around with parts, spacers and rods, threaded rods, drill stops, etc.

The Dowelmax is $239.00!!!! Well worth the cost for the hobbyist, too many parts to get scattered and too slow to reconfigure in a pro shop. A simple end-to-face joint would be cut with the Domino before you could get the board clamped in a vice for the Dowelmax.

Each has its place and its own target audience.

[Mitchell Andrus]

In reference to the delay in getting the tool to the US -- In looking at the wood mag link I came across this:

"it's been small, since resolved UL issues that have helped limit the Domino's availability for the last year."

So, on top of the international demand, they had to get the gov. Ok as well.


:D

Underwriter's Laboratory (UL) is a private company. The same government that lets us import illegal workers really doesn't care what tools we buy. "I'm from the government, I'm here to help".

[Dave Falkenstein]

If this thread does one thing, it shows the high degree of interest in a new tool by Festool. I cannot recall seeing a 78 post thread (so far) on a tool that is not even available yet in the US market. Wow!!!

I'm a hobbyist, and I LOVE my Festools. I have several of the Festool products and they give me a great deal of satisfaction using them on projects. I am willing to pay the price to buy a quality tool. I have yet to be disappointed in a decision to buy Festool. I suspect I will buy a Domino at some point, even though I don't "need" one.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Me. I already sent my order to Uncle Bob Marino. :)
Well then please do us all a favor:
Keep us appraised how it stands up over time and what little day to day abuses the things experiences.
I can't even remember how many times I have dropped my milwaukee drills it's gotta be more than a hundred & they show no wear.

So that sort of info is going to be really interesting.
Ya may end up selling me on the thing.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff - No problem. Even if your prediction were to come true, all Festool power tools are guaranteed for 3 years.

I learn something new every day.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

The Dommino Saw Stop Combo
It's just around the corner.

opinions?


Yah I'm making it up.

[Mike Holbrook]

Some of us are new Festool owners and do not have the full complement of tools that others may have. I have the 1080 table, C22 Dust Extractor, TS 55 EQ Saw, OF 1400 EQ Router. It was not easy to part with the cash but these tools have increased the amount of fun I have doing projects, causing me to spend more time on building /woodworking and less on some other things so I believe they are well worth the cost just for that factor alone.

I believe I use my tools more than many do. I have a list of projects that I know will take years to complete and it keeps growing. It is important for me to enjoy the work and not constantly have to make jigs and scratch hair off to figure out how to accomplish things. Festools IMHO are some of the best designed, efficient tools in the market place. The design benefits of any of these tools is not just in the tool itself but in its ability to fit into a system that makes every thing easier. The Domino seems to me to fit neatly in it's Festool nitch, providing new ability and working with other Festools like the dust extractor, table...

The attraction of such a tool for someone already emersed in the Festool system is different than for those who are not. With Festools that first step is scarry, just a little research reveals what a long slippery slope one is embarking on. Once one hits that slope, one learns just how pleasant it can be to slide around and through obstacles that can grind progress to a halt without that system.

[Stephen McClaren]

Underwriter's Laboratory (UL) is a private company. The same government that lets us import illegal workers really doesn't care what tools we buy. "I'm from the government, I'm here to help".

I think they do a better job b/c they are not a govenment agency. Am I wrong in assuming that the US requires a UL listing on tools (electronic tools) before they are sold here? I worked for a few companies that sent new products off to the UL labs, I always thought it was a requirement.

[Rick Christopherson]

I think they do a better job b/c they are not a govenment agency. Am I wrong in assuming that the US requires a UL listing on tools (electronic tools) before they are sold here? I worked for a few companies that sent new products off to the UL labs, I always thought it was a requirement.No. To the contrary I have seen inconsistencies from UL because they don't always follow the same standards.

My employer developed a new product several years ago, and for whatever reason we used the German branch of UL for certification (we are an international manufacturer). That branch came up with requirements that defied logic and opposed standard safety protocols. When we developed the next iteration of the machine (big machine) we learned our lesson and used the U.S. branch. The original requirement was not only removed, but was reversed 180 degrees, and is now safer than the ridiculous requirement of the first.

[Jerry Vander Till]

The German branch of UL was most likely a German test lab that was using UL standards. UL has reciprocal agreements with many test labs around the world so UL can test and certify to other countries' requirements and those labs can test and certify to UL requirements. The problem comes in interpreting the requirements (variations even occur between different UL offices here in the states). UL develops their own requirements for the U.S. market and most are ANSI approved standards. When they test to other country requirements, they use their standards (for example, they use CSA standards for Canadian requirements).

I get to deal with UL regularly and in one of my previous lives, worked there.

[john tomljenovic]

I think they do a better job b/c they are not a govenment agency. Am I wrong in assuming that the US requires a UL listing on tools (electronic tools) before they are sold here? I worked for a few companies that sent new products off to the UL labs, I always thought it was a requirement.

not the feds, but the insurance companies are who require a UL listing on the product you manufacture/sell; if you want liability insurance. the insurance co. established "Underwriters Laboratories" (hell, its in the name) to protect their bets and not have to cover a product that is stupid dangerous.

the feds can and have diferent requirements, but I don't think UL is connected in any way.


anyway, as to the domino. I'll be first in line, being that I own a a few Festool machines I have already fallen over that price cliff. But I am a hobbiest, and young. so I have this life that interferes with whitiling wood away with a chisel for hours on end. the fact I can get a true mortise as quick as a a biscuit joiner and yet more acurately is very apealing to me.

[Don Dean]

I love the spirited debate! As a new woodworker the one thing I have come to see in these debates is that woodworkers have the temperament of artist. Woodworking is an art and each artist has his or her own brush strokes and style. Woodworkers love their craft and their hearts lay bare when defending their art creation style. This is not bad for us who learn form the masters and develop their own style creating their own art, weather a bird house or a fine piece of furniture.

[Rick Christopherson]

Stephen, What's your address, and how do I get there? I've go this stick of wood that I would like to show you.:D Ala Al Pacino: "say hello to my little friend":D
To me It seems like a really nice biscuit jointer with pins on each side to help with alignment (although super precise German alignment pins I'm sure). Unless they have the paten on spring pins I don't see why someone could not make a tool that does the same thing for a lot less money. Which might be another reason not to introduce it to the US market out of the gate.....I can't believe you called this a "biscuit joiner"! It is not a biscuit joiner. It is not a dowel joiner. It is a tenon joiner. They are not the same!

[Todd Solomon]

I used the 10 x 50 mm (3/8" x 2") tenons separated by 10 mm vertically (for strength) and staggered across the width of each segment. The final joints are so close to flush that all I will need to do is hit them with my scraper to flush them up. (Although for precision, I will probably run the whole thing through the widebelt sander.)


Rick, neat project! I second the motion that you ought to start a new thread with this- very cool.

A question on the double row of tenons- Were you able to cut the mortises with the Domino fence registering from the same face, or did you have to flip the workpieces over for the second row? If I'm joining really thick pieces with a double row of tenons with wide spacing, I'd like to know whether the Domino can do it off of the same reference face. This way, even if there are differences in thickness of the components, the rows will still line up exactly.

Todd

[Dan Clark]

I've watched this thread with a little interest but, there seems to be a certain religous "flair" to the diametrically opposed sides of this discussion. The more I look at the Domino the more I wonder how it is different than a fancy dowling jig? It seems to me that a Dowelmax jig could do everything this will do...

There seems to be a lot of people on this forum who take exception to the Domino's price. And then they compare the Domino with a DowelMax?!?

I can't believe that anyone would pay this kind of money for a hunk of metal with some holes in it! It may do a nice job with dowels, but $239 is WAY over the top!

$700 for the flexible, high-quality, dustless Domino seems pricey, but reasonable for what you get. $239 for a doweling jig is completely unreasonable! (IMO)

Dan.

[Rick Christopherson]

A question on the double row of tenons- Were you able to cut the mortises with the Domino fence registering from the same face, or did you have to flip the workpieces over for the second row? I just discovered this limitation yesterday. The fence limit prevented me from equally spacing the Dominos while registering from the top surface on this 2-inch thick material. I thought long and hard about it, but decided to flip the piece over for the lower tenons. It was close, only a few millimeters, but for this project I didn't want to short the strength. I could have done it from th top, but because I didn't notice this beforehand, it would have put the two rows closer together than I wanted.

[Gary Keedwell]

I love the spirited debate! As a new woodworker the one thing I have come to see in these debates is that woodworkers have the temperament of artist. Woodworking is an art and each artist has his or her own brush strokes and style. Woodworkers love their craft and their hearts lay bare when defending their art creation style. This is not bad for us who learn form the masters and develop their own style creating their own art, weather a bird house or a fine piece of furniture.
Don, as a new woodworker, you are very fortunate to have this medium. Alot of us cut our teeth by watching Norm or some other figure without an opposing view.
Do you have any idea, how many beginning woodworkers went out and bought biscuit jointers after seeing Norm use one on his show? I do. Norm had a virtual monopoly on the woodworking community when he first started. I bet there is almost as much biscuit jointers collecting dust as there are exercise equipment.
I have learned that there are many ways to do a job and there are many tools, also. You just have to learn what is right for you. I find it amazing that there are people out there that, since they drive a ford or chevy, or whatever car you want to name, will get on a soapbox and yell that everybody should drive the car that they are driving.
I bet the headshrinkers could write a few books on that subject. LOL

Gary K.

[Mike Cutler]

At the risk of sounding like some kind of granola headed throwback, I have never seen the NYW, or Norm on TV. I haven't had a TV in the house for almost 30 years so that could account for it.:eek:
In his defense, I might point out that more than one person has conceded publicly to starting woodworking because they did watch that show. If they bought the plate jointer as inspiration and then went on to develop greater skills, than it was money well spent. Even if the plate jointer is just a doorstop now.
The biggest problem I saw with the biscuit jointer was when PC put out their version and tried to convince everyone that it was the "Do-All" tool. For it's intended purpose the Biscuit Jointer works quite well. It was never meant to replace M&T joinery completely in all applications.
Norm Abrams, David Marks, Franz Klausz, Cris Cristoforo, and others. Hylton,Warner, Bird, Reed, Rogowski, Frid, etc... Showed people, in simple laymans terms, that they could do this craft through through TV, magazine articles and books. They could make their own cabinets and furniture. It was possible.
Merchandising played into the equation, no doubt, but without sponsorship a lot of people would have never been exposed to woodworking, or tried to learn the "craft", or simply attempt their own simple home repairs/renovations.
If a "new" machine helps someone to make a nice piece of furniture, or kitchen cabinets, that are structurally sound and useful. Does it really matter the cost? I've priced cabinets,and believe me the cost of a Lamello, FMT or Domino could easily be absorbed in the project when compared to purchasing the cabinets outright and having them installed.Heck, you could throw in a pretty nice Tablesaw and still come out ahead if you're succesful.

Will I buy one. I don't think so, at least not right now. I can whack out mortises with a chisel, make them with a mortising machine, or make them with a router. in the end it is still a mortise ready for a tenon. I still think the Domino is going to find it's biggest supporters in the small custom shops. It's still just a tool and only as useful as the person using it.

Sorry for the rambling. Just a few thoughts I had while reading through the posts.

[Paul Comi]

$700 for the flexible, high-quality, dustless Domino seems pricey, but reasonable for what you get. $239 for a doweling jig is completely unreasonable! (IMO)

Dan.

After wasting my money on a PC biscuit joiner and being terribly dissatisfied I went the other extreme and bought a Top 20 Lamello. Fortunately I was able to get a new one for the price of used (bought a trade show demo that showed no sign of wear). All I can say is the difference in price was totally justified and the Lamello works wonderfully. Its the combination of precision, quality control, and good design both with the tool and the Lamello biscuits that results in just the right fit.

My point is, with some tool "systems" like this, value is in the results you get from the system. The combination of biscuits and the tools with my first biscuit joiner was not good and the results were not good either. With the Domino, you're not only buying the tool but you're also buying into their loose tenon consummables if you want their results. I'll bet that the Chinese have already begun working to come up with a less expensive knock off before the Domino hits the market, but if history is a predictor, they'll produce something with an inferior fence and with tenon stock that lacks the quality control.

The first thing I noticed when seeing a video of the Domino was the emphasis put on the fence of the tool and the way the cutter both rotates and oscilates to mill a mortise. I don't know if I will end up buying one, but my decision won't be based just on the cost because it seems to be more flexible than the Leigh FMT and around the same price.

[Gary Keedwell]

I haven't had a TV in the house for almost 30 years so that could account for it.:eek:
Hey Mike ...If you cool it with the tools, you might be able to afford a TV. LOL

Not to sound like a blue state elitist ( massachusetts) LOL . I have also used the old " I'll absorb it into the kitchen job, Honey" trick, too. But you have to remember that hundreds of people all over the earth tune into this forum with various income brackets.
I just came from a forum where they were talking about a "used" table saw in the $200-300 bracket, and this poor guy has been looking for months.
I don't mean to preach, but one man's trash, could be another's man's treasure.
On the other hand, I know of a guy who is wealthy but insists on doing all his woodwork using hand tools only.
I guess the size of one's toys could or could not be proportional to the size of his income.
Sorry , just thinking out loud.
Gary K.

[Jim Becker]

Gary, the bottom line is that tool choices are personal choices that we each make based on many factors. Money obviously comes in to play, but so does pure desire. I certainly would not expect you to buy a Domino or any other specific tool even if you had the money in-hand if it wasn't something you saw personal value in. In that case, just because you can buy doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

I'm very, very impressed with what I have seen of the tool this thread is addressing. I don't know if I'll every buy it, however. Only the type of projects I gravitate to in the future will determine that. But then again, I never expected I'd buy the tool I just did... ;) And I never thought I'd enjoy using a hand plane, either...until I bought a good one. Now I use them on every project.

[Joe Mioux]

The thing cuts a hole in wood.

There are a lot of people on vacation this week.

Joe

[Jim Becker]

The thing cuts a hole in wood.

There are a lot of people on vacation this week.


Both are spot on observations... :p

[Mike Cutler]

Gary.

Yeah the lack of TV has gotten me some funny looks and comments over the years. It was nothing intentional, I don't think it's the worlds greatest evil or anything. It just played out that way.

Tools and tool selection can be a difficult thing at times. Advising people about the choices is even more difficult. So many valid point can be made for or against the purchase of any given tool. Eventually though,we all have to start picking a few, or picking out furniture at an IKEA.:eek:

Generally I get mildly annoyed if one tool, or system of tools is presented as being the "Only Choice" for a given task. There are just too many different ways to accomplish the same task.

Now if we want too talk about some worthless tools.... Well I have a few that definitely fit that "One man's trash is another's treasure" category. I've purchased some clunkers over the years. :eek: :eek: :D ;).

I'd still like to see the Domino up close and personal someday. I also want to see which router bit maker comes out with the router bit to match the Domino Cutter so that folks can make their own loose tenons. $300.00 bucks for a box of loose tenons seems a little steep to me. ;)

[Gary Keedwell]

Mike & Jim

Funny thing. There was a question on another forum about the tool that gave you the most satifaction to use. I spent a day or two pondering that question. As I was preparing my latest project for finishing, it finally dawned on me.

Card scraper. It may sound weird but I love using that $7.00 piece of steel. So I really know , Jim, how you feel about your hand planer.

Yea Mike, I have been keeping an interested eye on the domino. I know I will never buy it, but my interest in tools knows no boundaries.

Gary K.

[Gary Keedwell]

Hey......Post # 100 ...who's going to get it? Too late!!!

Gary K.

[Mark Riegsecker]

And to think I was afraid this subject wasn't going to get enough air time.

I'm glad to read all of your opinions.

Thanks,
Mark

[Dan Clark]

... I know I will never buy it ...


(Hamlet | Act III, Scene 2)

Gary,

I'm going to print this out, frame it, and check back in six-nine months. Hmm... Will he? Won't he? Wow! The mysteries of life!

You might want to check out the Festool forum in Australia. When the Domino first came out about a year ago down under, there were a massive number of people saying , "Too Expensive!", "Overblown Biscuit Joiner!", and (my favorite) "I will NEVER buy one of those!". Over the last six months the nay-sayers have been droppin' like flies. That's just yummy irony! :D

Actually, I have only ONE question for you... If you're not interested in the Domino, why are you posting so many times?!? Enquiring minds want to know.

Dan.

p.s. I'm pretty straight forward about the Domino - the first time I have a clear, defined need, my wallet will be $1,000 lighter!

[Don Bullock]

...It is not an expensive tool if it can allow you to do your job better and more efficiently.
A happy new year to you all.

John, it's expensive. With that said, I think it is a fantastic tool that some, especially people who do a lot of woodworking, may be able to justify. For the typical hobbiest like me, it's way over priced. Yes, I'd love to have one and could put it to good use, but there is no way that I could buy one.

[David Dundas]

I am a hobbyist in Australia and have owned a Festool Domino for about six months. I was one of the several who argued at first that I could never justify buying a Domino, seeing that I had built myself a precision router mortising jig that can cut mortices almost as quickly as the Domino. However, I eventually succumbed to the to the persuasion of other Domino owners who were enthusiastic about the machine, and took the plunge. I am glad that I did. I think that if you are a serious hobbyist who wants to make furniture for yourself and your relations, the Domino enables you to increase your productivity enormously, when cutting a mortise takes only about 15 seconds and you have ready-made floating tenon stock in the form of dominoes.

I disagree with the person who surmised that domino joinery is not strong enough for chair joinery. A joint with double dominoes is immensely strong. I built this rocking chair, using dominoes for the all the joints, except for the dowel joints joining the legs to the rockers and the arms to the legs - http://www.flickr.com/photos/28625309@N00/254708472/ . I also built this zigzag chair, which has been tested by three people weighing a total of 575 lbs standing on it, with domino joinery: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28625309@N00/335981859/ .

My advice would be that, if you are a dedicated hobbyist, of the type which gets their satisfaction from producing a high-quality finished product as quickly as possible, then buy a Domino if you can afford to indulge yourself. On the other hand, if you get your main satisfaction from the processes of woodwork, inefficient and time-consuming though they may be, then perhaps the Domino is not for you.

David

[Per Swenson]

John, it's expensive. Yes, I'd love to have one and could put it to good use, but there is no way that I could buy one.



Sure There is. Put 3 dollars a day in a shoe box. You will have one by Christmas.

Never mind the domino. David. those chairs are beautiful.

Per

[Mike Cutler]

David.
First. Welcome to Sawmill Creek, pleased to meet ya'.
Second. Per is correct. Wow! That's a nice chair.

Not sure why someone would think the tenons wouldn't be strong enough. The website states that they are European Beech. Specific Density is .71-.75. Comparable to Hard Maple here in the states. American Cherry is .42 by contrast. Brazillian Cherry is 1.12 for comparison. Plenty strong enough as long as the tenon is long enough. I can't see that chair needing a really deep tenon.

Post some of your work in an Intro post if you would be so kind. It would be a shame for folks not to meet ya' or see your work.

Once again though. Welcome to Sawmill Creek

[Alfred Clem]

Pardon me if I inject some lessons learned by hard experience; I am now in my 80th year, and so I have learned a thing or two.

It wasn't too long ago -- perhaps 40 years -- when the national market for computers was estimated by a major data processing firm to be fewer than 100 machines.

Let us go back a few more decades. Let us see what passed for wisdom then.

My maternal grandfather ran a livery stable. For those too young to know, this was like an automobile rental business, only it was for horses, buggies, and boarding of animals. Time passed. Along came the automobile. Grandpa thought it was a passing fad, but he folded the livery stable and simply sold horse harness and equipment -- collars, curry combs, traces, chains, the whole nine yards. Eventually, he went broke.

My point is this: let's give the Domino some time in the marketplace. Will it succeed just for the pro (remember the computer) or will it bring benefits and new utility to a much broader market?

I have a hunch that even Festool has only a guess as to how popular (or unpopular) this tool will be in America. Very difficult to do market research on such a product, based on my experience.

But my guess -- for what it's worth -- is that the never-ceasing American love for gadgets, innovation, and ease will sweep all before it. Price will become secondary and not a hindrance to sales. Quality will win. Otherwise, wouldn't half of us be driving Edsels?

[Dave Falkenstein]

Al - Well said. Happy 80th!!!

[Peter Pedisich]

I've not been able to participate in SMC as much recently but this thread is interesting. A Domino is not in my future mainly because I'm currently building a router mortising jig from FWW, but I'd love to have a Festool 1400 router for the jig!

One thing we must keep in mind about Festool and their pricing is that they have not fled to China for their manufacturing. They are a German company and they have made a commitment to the workers in their own country. Almost all of their tools and much of the tooling and components to create the tools comes from Germany. I wish I could say the same about Porter Cable & DeWalt (made in the USA, I mean, as I'm a DeWalt fan). Now I'm not saying quality tools can't come from Mexico or China, they most certainly can. But it's unfair to compare based on price a Bosch made in China or a Porter Cable made in Mexico to a Festool made in Germany. (just an example)

The cost of Engineering, Tooling and especially Manufacturing in Germany is quite high, this is part of what makes a Festool more expensive than much of the competition.

[Dan Clark]

Actually, I have only ONE question for you... If you're not interested in the Domino, why are you posting so many times?!? Enquiring minds want to know.
Dan,

On the contrary, I am interested in the whole Festool phenomenon. I want to understand this cult-like tool fetish. I think it is really interesting, not just the tools themselves but the whole mind-set of this subject.
I'm just curious of what makes the Festool Fanatics tick, that's all. I have a brother who lives and eats fantasy football, but I think I understand that. This is completely different.
You mention Festool and people's ears stand straight up. I had a childhood buddy that would talk constantly about 1955 Chevy's. His ears stood up when one of those came down the road, too. LOL

Gary K.

Gary,

I think the issue is "Fantasy". Or to be precise, the exact opposite - "Lack of Fantasy".

Unfortunately, most products are driven by marketing. The key component of marketing is "Fantasy" - projecting the image of great features and high quality while making it as cheaply as possible.

With tools, it's especially bad. Most tool companies mount massive marketing campaigns to push their cheaply made products. On a consistent basis they simultaneously "decontent" their products - reduce quality that you can't see. Examples of this include the new DW718 miter saw which has great new visible features, but the castings and head stiffness are not as good as the saw it replaced - the DW708. Or as a simple example, take the Irwin spade bits that I bought from Lowes. About two years ago the bits I bought were great bits. A couple of months ago, I went to replace them and found that Lowes carried new "upgraded" Irwin spade bits. Only the new ones were cheap junk.

People are "Festool Fanatics" (your term) because Festools are utilitarian machines whose internal quality is far greater than their exterior looks would imply. "Industrial strength", "quality plus portability", "form follows function", "integrated system", and "maximum functionality" are terms that come to mind when I think of Festool.

Everyone knows about the great dust collection and overall quality. Not so evident are the little subtleties that make Festools so nice to work with. For example, virtually all of the tools have flat black exteriors. Did you know that the virtually all of the working controls are bright emerald green? I.e., if it's green, it does something. So it's easy to find the controls. And, their function is pretty obvious to users regardless of language.

Another thing is that they work. You yank them out of their Systainers (another nice innovation) and use them without lots of fiddling around. For example, I needed a router for my current project. Since my long term goal was to get a Festool OF1400 for hand-held use and a Hitachi M12V for table use, I bought the Hitachi for the project to save money. Since I was busy with the project, the Hitachi sat on the shelf for a month. Then, the evening before I was going to use it (Saturday morning), I tried to set it up to make sure it would work. For four hours, I messed with that thing and could NEVER get the plunge depth settings correct. I even took it apart to see if it was broken. (It may be some subtlety that I missed, but I'm pretty sure that it is defective.)

In frustration, I ran down to WoodCraft the next morning and got a Festool OF1400. When I got home, I thought "I hope I made the right decision." So as a relative newbie to routers and never having used the OF1400... I yanked it from its Systainer, quickly read the instructions, inserted a slot cutter bit, adjusted the height, and routed a PERFECTLY CENTERED test cut within 15 minutes!!! It worked perfectly the first time!

Festools work! That is what fascinates most Festool users and makes them enthusiastic about Festools. In a world where bull$hit rules, Festool is one of the few exceptions. In a world where marketing fantasy fails to meet cruel reality, Festool (and a very few others) stands out.

And now let's turn to your Chevy metaphor...

Festools are about quality, not looks. Your '55 Chevy metaphor is poor in this context.

The '55 Chevy (and '57 Chevy) was a new shining star in a sea of mediocrity when it came out. It was glitzy! It wasn't a great car; it was a great LOOKING car. The '55 Chevy is a good metaphor to explain new products that are great looking but mediocre quality.

You need to continue looking for a good metaphor to explain the Festool phenomenon. Or, just buy some.

Dan.

p.s., I've owned several GM cars ('62 & '69 Chevy, '77 Olds, '80 Pontiac). My experience with them was uniformly negative.

[Greg Millen]

Hi, this is my first post here at Sawmill Creek but I may be known to some from other fora as "Groggy". I certainly recognise more than a few names here.

It has been interesting following this thread. As an Australian who lived in the States for a number of years I'd like to make some observations.

The first observation is that the country the tool is introduced to is quite irrelevant to the discussion unless that country does woodworking in a significantly different manner to the rest of the world. We are woodworkers first and have very similar needs. The major differences are really only language and voltage.

My next observation would be that this tool has had much deeper, broader and faster market penetration than Festool expected. Why? Because it works and it is affordable by both the commercial and the home markets (albeit the upper end). This depleted their stocks so quickly it is rumoured they had to employ extra shifts to boost production to meet demand.

Too expensive? Definitely not for the commercial market. For the home market, I suspect there are woodworkers reading this who own $2000+ tablesaws who could make do with $800 tablesaws. How many spend the extra dollars (2-3 times cost) to get the LN plane when a Stanley will do? Why is Bridge City still in business? We know why, some guys and gals like classy stuff. Others like to buy a pig in a poke and fix it up to work as well as a tool ten times the price. The Domino is classy stuff, however, it has no competitor - yet.

One thing I have learned from many years of reading woodworking forums is that woodworkers will prise open the rusty hinge on their wallets when the enticement is there. I strongly believe the Domino is in that category.

I can vouch for David Dundas's experience as I have followed the discussions closely in the Aussie Forums. I have seen his scepticism give way to full-on support and admiration for the tool, along with a significant number of others.

My advice would be not to paint yourself in the corner by stating you won't buy one. Try it first, see what it can do.

Oh yes, and for those who say it is not suited to sticks too big to carry to a fixed machine - of course you are correct. However, I don't see too many fixed mortise machines being carried to a jobsite either :rolleyes: . Horses for courses, or, the right tool for the job still applies.

Disclaimers: No, I do not own one (yet), nor am I affiliated with Festool in any way.

[Dave Avery]

How easy is it to learn to use?

[glenn bradley]

One thing we're not short of here is opinions. When you catch the Creek at the right cycle of the moon and starts we become quite verbose. :D

[Bob Marino]

How easy is it to learn to use?

Dave,

It is quite simple, almost as simple as using a biscuit joiner, but there are more options - bit changes and two other "jigs". Bit changing takes less than a minute and the jigs are simple and quite helpful. Rick Christopherson, is writing an expanded/updated/complete manual on this tool and John Lucas has already posted demos on his site.

Bob

[Greg Millen]

How easy is it to learn to use?Dave, without wanting to pre-empt the work being written by others, the simple answer to your question is that this would be one of the easiest tools to use I have seen in a long time. For instance, you (generally) do not need to mark out before cutting, therefore removing the single major cause of error and material wastage.

I recommend you do a quick search and find a video on how to use one, pictures are fine but a video can show just how quick and accurate this tool really is.

[Paul Comi]

The chair is beautiful and I am in your camp as it goes with efficiently producing projects. I recognize that some enjoy taking painstaking swipes with hand planes on projects start to finish and are completely adverse to even using power tools to surface materials from rough stock, but not me. I agree with Phil Lowe's approach in which he does the major lifting with power tools and the final surface has the evidence of being worked by planes, scrapers, chisels and rasps. I'm after the final result and no one is going to know if a chair or table or box or whatever was dimensioned with a scrub plane or my jointer and planer.

Did you use the domino to form the joint between the back spindles and the crest rail? If so, I'm surprised that the loose tenons are that small. Can you select the width of mortise created by the domino? If so, I just became even more interested.

[John Lucas]

How easy is it to learn to use?

Dave, I think it is very easy. Based on the workpiece, you choose the tenon you will use; you install bit for that mortise; you make width and depth settings...you route your mortises. I did not have any manual to start with and just figured it out by playing with the four adjustments.

Compared to the Leigh M&T Jig, night and day diffeence. The Leigh does a geat job but takes more tinkering by far. Compared to biscuit joiner...more complex but not that much more difficult.

[Paul Comi]

Compared to the Leigh M&T Jig, night and day diffeence. The Leigh does a geat job but takes more tinkering by far.

But, compared to the Leigh, its not producing a mortise and tenon joint-its a mortise and loose tenon joint. Don't get me wrong, I think the domino has great potential value and use in the shop, but if I was building a chair or something that would be subjected to a lot of stresses and twisting, I'd prefer to use true tenons. With loose tenons, I'd have twice the chance of every joint failing over a regular mortise and tenon. When you consider how many mortise and tenon joints there are in a typical chair, that increases the chance of problems significantly.

[Mike Cutler]

But, compared to the Leigh, its not producing a mortise and tenon joint-its a mortise and loose tenon joint. Don't get me wrong, I think the domino has great potential value and use in the shop, but if I was building a chair or something that would be subjected to a lot of stresses and twisting, I'd prefer to use true tenons. With loose tenons, I'd have twice the chance of every joint failing over a regular mortise and tenon. When you consider how many mortise and tenon joints there are in a typical chair, that increases the chance of problems significantly.

Paul.
I'm not sure that I agree with you completely on this. I'm not a fan of Loose Tenons either. I like traditional integrated M&T joints, but..... As long as the loose tenon is fitted properly, is long enough, and is of a suitable material, and not some form of compressed wood ( In the case of the Domino, it is reported to be European Beech. Same strength as American Maple.). There should be enough structural integrity to keep the joint intact, as long as the joint is glued properly.
All of the M&T joints I've seen that failed, failed due to the adhesive component in the joint, either age related, or a glue starved joint, or the original M&T joint was sized too small, and lacked adequate mechanical strength.
A case could also be made that a loose tenon joint made in this manner, or with a router, could be better because overall there would be less void space in the joint total.

Of course. We've had this subject as a standalone thread in the past. Interesting reading. Lots of differing opinions.:eek: ,;)

[Mark Singer]

A lot of the fun of woodworking for me is the challenge of laying out joints and fitting them with a combination of hand and machine tools. The results IMHO are better...ie, handcut dovetails vs. router jig dovetails. Tools like this are great for production shops and I am sure the strength is adequate....but its a bit like comparing a home cooked meal where you start with fesh ingredients, to a frozen TV dinner, that anyone can pop in the oven. The challenge and satisfaction quotient is very low. Now if you need to be fast and are doing production work...it seems like a great tool....if is the express highway to fine woodworking....you missed some of the major attractions and lessons along the way...too bad:(

[Paul Comi]

Paul.
I'm not a fan of Loose Tenons either.

Mike, I'm not saying I'm not a fan of loose tenons. I just recognize that all things being equal there is twice as much chance of a loose tenon failing because it could potentially pull out of either mortise since there are two mortises. If I was building a chair using loose tenons, I'd probably pin the loose tenons from the inside of the chair frame for some insurance.

[Jim Becker]

Paul, just to be sure that everyone is on the same page including newbies... "loose" tenons are not "loose". They are glued into both mortises involved in the joint. The term can be very confusing... ;) Properly glued with modern glues, the wood, itself, will pull into shreds before the joint will come apart.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike, I'm not saying I'm not a fan of loose tenons. I just recognize that all things being equal there is twice as much chance of a loose tenon failing because it could potentially pull out of either mortise since there are two mortises. If I was building a chair using loose tenons, I'd probably pin the loose tenons from the inside of the chair frame for some insurance.

Paul.
You always have to go with what you are comfortable with, and have faith in.

As an aside, where is North San Gabriel? I went to school in Pomona and Diamond Bar.I used to work in Etiwanda,or Rancho Cucomunga now, and Redlands.

[Paul Comi]

Hi Mike,

Those are all areas that are east. I live in the 'burbs between Pasadena and Downtown Los Angeles 25 mi from any decent lumberyard :(

[Gary Keedwell]

Why does this thread keep going to the top when I don't see any more posting? I only see where it stops on page 7. I'm I missing something?

GaryK.

[Dan Clark]

It is probably because of your Display Mode. Change to Linear Mode. (I find it less confusing.)

Dan.

[Gary Keedwell]

Thanks Dan....I'm not lost anymore.....sorta.... lol

Gary K.

[Gary Keedwell]

A lot of the fun of woodworking for me is the challenge of laying out joints and fitting them with a combination of hand and machine tools. The results IMHO are better...ie, handcut dovetails vs. router jig dovetails. Tools like this are great for production shops and I am sure the strength is adequate....but its a bit like comparing a home cooked meal where you start with fesh ingredients, to a frozen TV dinner, that anyone can pop in the oven. The challenge and satisfaction quotient is very low. Now if you need to be fast and are doing production work...it seems like a great tool....if is the express highway to fine woodworking....you missed some of the major attractions and lessons along the way...too bad:(
Mark...I love that express highway analogy. If a rookie went straight to the loose tenon bit...he'd be missing alot.
Gary K.

[Chris Barton]

For those of you interested, there is a mini review with video here:

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=28038

[Paul Comi]

That's the second time I've seen the review demo and I had a couple thoughts this time.

Even if someone wanted to do a regular mortise and tenon joint if they so chose, the domino would make the mortises quick n easy in a project that had a lot of mortises.

I have a dedicated mortiser and taking the tool to the project would be faster in a lot of cases I can think of.


Also, for those of you who have an FMT or a Trend mortise and tenon maker, the demo says that it took him 45 mins to produce the joinery to join table legs to the aprons of the table. Since the legs are thicker stock than the aprons, what would the time be involved in setting up an FMT for an application like that?

[Chris Padilla]

Hey, I've decided to pick one up but then I've got more money than brains! hahaha

Also, I didn't want to start a new thread so I searched and found this one...I'm only 2 weeks behind the last post....

:) Sorry I haven't been around much...anyone miss me? :D

[David G Baker]

Hey, I've decided to pick one up but then I've got more money than brains! hahaha

Also, I didn't want to start a new thread so I searched and found this one...I'm only 2 weeks behind the last post....

:) Sorry I haven't been around much...anyone miss me? :D
Chris,
There is a guy in the "off topic" area that is asking about you. He misses your great humor, etc.
David B

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,
There is a guy in the "off topic" area that is asking about you. He misses your great humor, etc.
David B

Hmmm, he must be confusing me with some other humorist...I'll go check it out. :)

[Dennis O'Leary]

How easy is it to learn to use?

Hi team

Hopefully I won't get flamed by y'all, as being a New Zealander in Aussie I already get enough of that!

I'm a relative newbie to furniture making. Before this project I had made a simple dining table & pews, single beds for the kids, and a couple of small side tables. I asked SWMBO to pick a design she liked. Oh dear. I dubbed it the bed with 10,000 tenons. With the encouragement of very capable members of the 'ubueat' BB (check it out) I got stuck in. I made a morticing jig from a plan kindly given to me by David Dundas, (purveyor of fine rockers, posted above - top shelf jig) and just before I'd crossed the Rubicon, the Domino appeared.
My original posted opinions make me cringe now (be careful here guys) but with a bit of careful thought, I decided that if it cut down construction time but still offered strong accurate joints, I'd be dumb not to have one. With two young children, a mortgage, and the wife working only part time, $US1200 for the kit took a lot of thought, trust me.

This bed is the first project I made with the Domino. It has 208 domi's in it, and the ones on the curved posts were each marked with an offset pencil line and plunged by hand - no jigs. Instead of about 5 weekends, The Dom cut this time down to maybe a couple of hours in total. that's right - about 30 secs each M&T.

For my own comfort, esp. with the 5x30 dominos in the 45 slats (180 Dominos) I tested several joints to destruction - in every case, the timber failed, not the Domino. I

This 'instrument' (machine sounds so agricultural for this) is easy to use, quick and (repeatably) accurate, and its potential for innovation is limited only by the user's imagination.

I'd be happy to answer questions. No affiliation with Festool, etc, etc BTW.

[Bill Simmeth]

Wow - very cool bed!! So, may I read between the lines and guess that you were anti-Domino at first?

[Gary Eneberg]

That bed is spectacular. Excellent work and thanks for sharing.

Gary

[frank shic]

dennis, did you cut the mortise and tenon joints for the footboard and the side rails with the domino as well? i was pretty much settled on NOT buying a domino since i could just use my biscuit jointer for cabinets which is the majority of what i do but i would love to be able to build a table or a bed with the improved strength of the floating tenon joinery. nice bed, BTW.

[Dan Clark]

Hi team

Hopefully I won't get flamed by y'all, as being a New Zealander in Aussie I already get enough of that!

I'm a relative newbie to furniture making. Before this project I had made a simple dining table & pews, single beds for the kids, and a couple of small side tables. I asked SWMBO to pick a design she liked. Oh dear. I dubbed it the bed with 10,000 tenons. With the encouragement of very capable members of the 'ubueat' BB (check it out) I got stuck in. I made a morticing jig from a plan kindly given to me by David Dundas, (purveyor of fine rockers, posted above - top shelf jig) and just before I'd crossed the Rubicon, the Domino appeared.
My original posted opinions make me cringe now (be careful here guys) but with a bit of careful thought, I decided that if it cut down construction time but still offered strong accurate joints, I'd be dumb not to have one. With two young children, a mortgage, and the wife working only part time, $US1200 for the kit took a lot of thought, trust me.

This bed is the first project I made with the Domino. It has 208 domi's in it, and the ones on the curved posts were each marked with an offset pencil line and plunged by hand - no jigs. Instead of about 5 weekends, The Dom cut this time down to maybe a couple of hours in total. that's right - about 30 secs each M&T.

For my own comfort, esp. with the 5x30 dominos in the 45 slats (180 Dominos) I tested several joints to destruction - in every case, the timber failed, not the Domino. I

This 'instrument' (machine sounds so agricultural for this) is easy to use, quick and (repeatably) accurate, and its potential for innovation is limited only by the user's imagination.

I'd be happy to answer questions. No affiliation with Festool, etc, etc BTW.
Dennis,

You raise an interesting category of issues - when does craftmanship change to drudgery? When do power tools like the Domino (or the table saw, or drill press, or...) reduce creativity and when does it increase creativity?

If I was making a bed, I think that the Domi (or some similar power tool) would greatly reduce the drudgery of making the same part over and over. OTOH, if I was making a table that had two large tenons in it, then part of the creativity might be making the tenons look nice.

It sounds to me like there might not be a fixed answer and that it depend on what you were trying to build.

Just some thoughts.

Dan.

[Glenn Clabo]

First post and you give us a picture and sanity? That's just not right!;)

Nice bed Dennis...and welcome to SMC.

[Jim Becker]

Dennis, that's an outstanding bed project! Wow! And I can see why you appreciated the, umm...instrument...in its construction. Wow...

[Dennis O'Leary]

Thanks for the kind words guys. I had a look for my original and very negative/uninformed post, but found one from one of the more genteel converts, a Welshman who goes by the name of Patr (excellent succinct advice):

Hi Joseph

The answer to all your questions, and more, are in the various threads in the Domino Forum because they have been asked before. Costs of cutters/domis are on Anthony's website http://www.idealtools.com.au/ (http://www.idealtoolshttp://www.idealtools.com.au/).

The majority of points made on cost, difficulty of use/time to set up and the lack of any advantage over a biscuit joiner are usually made by those who have either never seen a Domino in use or have never used a Domino. The praise comes from those who have bought and used one. A recuring theme throughout the early Domino threads is:

a. initial dismissal on cost (I was onehttp://www.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/sad/shock.gif ) but intrigued
b. attend demonstration of the tool and marvel at its versatility
c. immediate purchase or order
d. incredulity at the speed, accuracy and strength of the join
e. enthusiasm at the range of uses
f. total amnesia (or couldn't give a hoot) at the initial purchase price. The tool adds value.
g. tool paid for after one or two commissions by the pros
h. absolute delight in owning one of the very best powertools in the World
i. the need to defend Domi's honour at all costshttp://www.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/standard/biggrin.gif
j. delete ex-smokers and converted Catholics, insert Converted Domi owners!


I gave my old Elu Biscuit joiner to my son and sold my Lamello on EBay. I would never go back to biscuits but do appreciate that there are many who still prefer the BJ. Its a matter of choice.

Regards
Pat

Search Domino here, for hours of fun reading:

xxxx

In answer to another question about the rails, I was going to to go for trad. M&T's, but after testing a joint with 2x 10x50 doms (me, 220 lbs jumping up and down on it) I went for domis. Pics are 1) Rail details, 2) about to dom for the top rail/post join, 3) Assembly (very smooth, only a few 'Ohmigod' moments, 4) OK, what's next?:

[Greg Funk]

Outstanding bed Dennis. Just one question: Whats with the lego model? Is that a prototype for your next project?

[Dennis O'Leary]

I only noticed that after I posted. My 6yr old daughter loves mucking about in the shed with me, but tends to leave 'non-essential' items about the place.

[Jim Dailey]

Dennis,

I have been amused on post after post by the tongue in cheek humor on "the site down under" by any number of posters but frankly laughed my ____ off at the glib writings of as you put it... "one of the more genteel converts, a Welshman who goes by the name of Patr (excellent succinct advice)" & of course the antics of his dog Simon... Pat's writings can only be properly enjoyed with a drink in hand!!! Although some times you'll have to set the drink down to keep from spilling it 'cause your laughing too hard to keep the contents in the glass.

I sure you will agree the post you copied of his although "excellent succinct advice" is only a glimmer of his wit.

Great job on the bed, & "thanks" for sharing the pictures

It is nice to see some of the Aussie posters like Dave, & Jack post here also.

jim

[Dennis O'Leary]

Indeed - a very funny buggar, with a brilliant wit to boot. I love the depths he will go to in order to disguise yet another systainer being delivererd - a true convert to "Herr Doktor Festool's" evilly addictive but most excellent products.
He also has a great ability to cut to the chase about our hobby and desires - if you want it, need it for a task, and can (sort of) afford it, then damn the expense, buy the bloody thing.
We're here for a good time, and 'you're a lang time daid'.

[Jim Dailey]

Dennis,

The Herr Doktor will be happy as I already have a Fes"kewl" Domi on order.... I have actually had a "standing order" (that's 'cause I'm too impatiently to sit still...) with Bob Marino for "all the bells & whistles" since early last fall.

I blame you & your comrades "on the site down under" for my wanting to send my $$$ across the pond at the earliest opportunity.... April 1st is still several months away and I have already waited over 6 months!!!

Thanks again,
jim

[Terry Fogarty]

Also being an Aussie (like Dennis our adopted Kiwi brother with an Irish name living in Australia:eek: ) i to have had mine for around 9 months. At the begining i was also "very" vocal about the over the top price of a "$1200 power tool" but eventualy gave in, sold a kidney, bought my Domi and now just love it more than anything i have in my workshop, and im more than happy to share my thoughts, tips and photos if you want.

Their are others from Downunder that will post as well (i hope) and their are a few on this great forum who have also used it for a number of months and are very advansed in their use, so i realy hope they also post their thoughts and tips and pics.

And just to clarify, i have no conection at all with Festool or any agent, im doing this because im very passionate and love my beloved Domino ;)

[Mark Carlson]

Dennis,

Your bed is awesome. I was going to ask if the largest domino was big enough for a bed rail. Your use of two along with a bed bolt answered my question before I had to ask it. Thanks for the pictures and the humor.

~mark

[Keith Outten]

Dennis,

I also must chime in here and commend you on the bed project. Beautiful work mate :)

.

[Les Spencer]

Dennis,

Wow all those tenons in 2hrs. :cool: Beautiful design and build. What kind of timber was used?:confused:

[David Dundas]

Here is another project that is well suited to the Domino joiner. I found the design for this blanket chest in Fine Woodworking #129, and adapted it to use dominoes instead of mortise-and-tenon joinery. The Domino version of the design has 48 mortises, which were cut in an hour or so.

David Dundas

[Rick Potter]

John,

I have read all the posts on this thread, as well as following some of your reviews and demos on the Domino, although I havn't had time to finish them all yet. One alternative for the hobbyist not mentioned is the Beadlock, which also got favorable reviews on your site.

I gravitate towards making cabinets and case-type furniture using mostly Kreg Jig and biscuit joints. I have long thought moving up to mostly M/T and have done some work using loose tenons with a router.

I could probably come up with the bucks for the Domino, but I wonder if, in my situation, it is the best use of my tool money.

For a hobbyist like me, who is not a pro where time=money, and since you have used both, I wonder if you could comment on the Beadlock Vs. the Domino.

Rick Potter

PS: Other's comments invited also.

[Peter Pedisich]

Rick,

I'm not John but have used the Beadlock on three projects.

pros:
-produces a well fitting, strong joint.
-ability to make a nice deep mortise with a long drill bit.
-can also be used as dowel jig

cons:
-I got rough side walls in softwood even with new high quality twist drill bit.
-you can imagine the time all the drilling takes, small project no problem.
-router bits to make your own tenon stock are expensive.
-unique shape to tenon stock can be a problem, if you run low on a sunday...

Good Luck,

Pete

[Dennis O'Leary]

...but the Domino would fit your work like a glove. When you do a dry assembly, you're tempted to leave it like that and not bother with glue as the piece is solid, square and... perfect. After having to force dry joins apart and pulling out lots of domis with pliers, I set aside a special 'dry assembly' set that have been sanded slightly smaller. I think that Jack Dyer has pretty much given up on worrying with dry assembly, as his confidence in the fit is 100% now.

Although purists won't appreciate it much - and yes I too get a kick from a nicely finished M&T - the replacement of a joint that is generally invisible in the finished piece coupled with the speed and accuracy of assembly makes this one a no brainer for you - IMHO.

[John Russell]

Here is another project that is well suited to the Domino joiner. ... David Dundas

Seeing some of the applications for using loose tenons is very helpful ... keep posting the pictures!

[Rick Christopherson]

I've never made a video before, but last weekend I decided to try it as a possible extra for the contruction blog for my expanding round table (http://waterfront-woods.home.att.net/Projects/RoundTable/TableBlog.html). Last night I managed to convert it to mpeg and upload it to YouTube, which is another thing I haven't tried before.

I don't know what you will think of this, but it shows me using the Domino to mortise one side of the edging on one of the table leaves, and then dry fitting the pieces. Don't be too harsh. Keep in mind I had to be the camera man, director, producer, and actor all at the same time. On top of that, it was taken with the movie function from my still camera.

Domino Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz3y4QbmoyY)

[Gary Eneberg]

Nice job on the vid. The more I see the domino in use, the more I think I need one.

Gary

[Jim Dailey]

Rick,

Your killing me....

In the time it would take to download your video with my 26k dial up.... I could walk from Rochester to where your at faster....

Then again it probably faster then the 2 month wait for the Domi :eek:

Based on your AFT 55, TS 55, & OF 1400 it will be worth the wait to read your new Domino manual.

jim

[Art Mann]

The Domino will never have a large share of the hobby joinery equipment market for precisely the same reason that Mercedes Benz will never have a large share of the automobile market. There are numerous alternatives that will do the job, albeit less elegantly, in either case. To continue my analogy further, if a Japanese manufacturer manages to produce a machine that works almost as well for half the price, as they have done with the car market, it will take the hobby woodworking market by storm.

JMNSHO

[David Dundas]

The Domino will never have a large share of the hobby joinery equipment market for precisely the same reason that Mercedes Benz will never have a large share of the automobile market. There are numerous alternatives that will do the job, albeit less elegantly, in either case. To continue my analogy further, if a Japanese manufacturer manages to produce a machine that works almost as well for half the price, as they have done with the car market, it will take the hobby woodworking market by storm.

JMNSHO

Art,

It all depends what you mean by 'large'; but I would not be surprised if 10% of American hobbyist woodworkers buy a Domino in the next few years. I got flamed on another thread for expressing the opinion that most American woodworkers could afford to buy a Domino, if they really wanted one. Maybe that was a bit of an exaggeration, but I am pretty sure that a sizeable number will go for the Domino, even though it is possible to rout mortises fairly accurately and easily with a good mortising jig. Hobbyists who are affluent but time-poor will like the Domino because it enables them to achieve a lot in a limited time. Plenty of others will be quite content to spend more time using traditional mortise-and-tenon joinery, and will therefore find no benefit in owning a Domino.

Incidentally, I think there would be a big market among hobbyists for ready-made domino tenons in inch sizes, if they were sold in fairly small packs in a variety of common timbers, such as cherry, walnut, maple, and red and white oak. Hobbyists could then use floating tenon joinery by routing the mortises with a router.

Rick,

That is an impressive video; I have wondered myself about putting woodworking videos on You Tube; but I have never got around to trying it. I am wondering, though whether You Tube might get after you for putting what could be construed as promotional material on there. I promise I won't tell on you; but others might.

David

[John Russell]

I've never made a video before, but last weekend I decided to try it as a possible extra for the contruction blog for my expanding round table (http://waterfront-woods.home.att.net/Projects/RoundTable/TableBlog.html). Last night I managed to convert it to mpeg and upload it to YouTube, which is another thing I haven't tried before.

I don't know what you will think of this, but it shows me using the Domino to mortise one side of the edging on one of the table leaves, and then dry fitting the pieces. Don't be too harsh. Keep in mind I had to be the camera man, director, producer, and actor all at the same time. On top of that, it was taken with the movie function from my still camera.

Domino Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz3y4QbmoyY)

Rick,
This answers several questions and shows the machine working ... it helps. I am a hobbyist and not much time to devote to all the projects I would like ... si time is a critical variable for me... the less time I spend setting up tools and learning how one tool or another works, the better. So, I might spend the money even though I am not in a production envrionment, time is an important variable for me. So, if the Festool way of doing things saves me time and helps me to solve problems and produce products for me, then the cost is worth it for me.

Thanks for the video... good job,

[Dennis O'Leary]

Good job Rick

You should've shown how flush the surfaces are.

I'm wondering why you used the 'tight' setting for all of the Dominoes, and also why you're not using the extension wings for your spacing, to preclude the need for marking out?

John has hit the nail on the head. My main justification for buying was just that - time in the shed. With a young family, and a senior position in the construction industry my shed time is limited and precious. I would love to be able to chip away lovingly with the Bergs and handsaws, making perfect joinery without burning 'lectrons, but my real kick is turning timber into something useful and hopefully beautiful. I know that The Dom will double my output - from two projects a season to 4!
There is something really satisfying about using it as well - whacking the mating piece home to find it perfectly in position, every time, is just great.

[Terry Fogarty]

I'm wondering why you used the 'tight' setting for all of the Dominoes, and also why you're not using the extension wings for your spacing


Mr O`Leary, havnt you worked out yet you carnt use both at the same time:cool:

[Rick Christopherson]

I don’t yet have any video editing software, so getting that video converted, compressed, and ready to upload was a major effort. I wasn’t going to make it public, but I thought I would post it buried in this thread to get some feedback on a “first effort”. Pretty much what you see is what came out of the camera, and that includes me walking to and from the camera to hit the shutter button.

Because these were actual workpieces for the table, it was difficult maintaining my concentration on doing the work properly while being cognizant of capturing a worthwhile video. Things go much smoother when the camera is not present. When I take still pictures, those are propped and I take a half-dozen brackets for a single final photo. I don’t have that luxury with video. In other words, the action is unscripted and totally on the fly.

David,
I don’t believe YouTube has any issues with promotional videos (short of advertisements), but more importantly, this isn’t promotional material because I’m not a Festool employee. Nevertheless, the video of Vitus Rommel (the product developer for Domino) is also on YouTube, but Festool didn’t upload it.

I put the video together to try it out as part of my construction blog. I was originally planning on just uploading the video to my own website until I realized that the file size would wipe out my remaining allotted storage space. What’s interesting is that I think I can embed the video directly into my own web pages even though it would still be hosted on YouTube.

Dennis,
I’m just a little anal retentive. I prefer to keep the tenons tight in the mortises. That’s the same reason why I don’t use the outriggers that I showed previously on my blog. It’s just a personal preference, and I can lay out the pencil lines faster than figuring out the best spacing distance of the outriggers.

[David Dundas]

Rick,

I was glad to hear that You Tube are apparently less strict than this forum is when it comes to material that could be interpreted as promotional. I originally made the mistake of thinking that Sawmill Creek had similar rules to my usual forum down under with regard to ads. My home forum allows them on its For Sale forum, as long as they are not unduly obtrusive.

I agree that the domino outrigger accessories are more trouble than simply marking out the domino positions with a pencil, as is done with biscuits. I find I never use my outriggers, but maybe I am missing something. But I have a confession to make: I still tend to use a biscuit joiner for edge joining. I find it more forgiving than the Domino for that task.

David

[Art Mann]

I think 10% market penetration is quite high. I doubt if 10% of the woodworking population currently owns a biscuit cutter or a high end doweling jig. I would expect the percentage of woodworkers who will eventually buy a Domino is much smaller than that. The Sawstop is another example of clearly superior technology that is out of reach of the average woodworker. I have observed that a lot of owners of Festool and Sawstop equipment talk as if others are just foolish who don't use the equipment. They seem arrogant but I don't think they really are. They simply don't realize the financial status of the rest of the community. I would say a majority of woodworkers will never spend $1000 on a tablesaw, much less a high tech morticing machine.

[Dave Avery]

Art,

......... Hobbyists who are affluent but time-poor will like the Domino because it enables them to achieve a lot in a limited time.

David


Bingo...... I really enjoy woodworking, but tend not to start big projects because I know it will take forever for to finish. I enjoy design. I also enjoy some of the construction processes like vacuum veneering and the creativity associated with using veneers. I don't enjoy preparing stock. I don't enjoy cutting joints. So a tool that makes quick work of one of the processes that I don't like is absolutely PERFECT for me. Best. Dave.

[Rob Blaustein]

They simply don't realize the financial status of the rest of the community. I would say a majority of woodworkers will never spend $1000 on a tablesaw, much less a high tech morticing machine.
But how much will they spend on wood, hardware and consumables like glue and finishing products for their projects over the course of several years? It seems like much more time and energy is spent discussing the cost of tools, or shopping around for the best deals (and I'm as guilty of this as the next guy), when in the long run the costs of wood etc may end up dwarfing the cost of many of our tools.

[David Dundas]

Also, the cost of a high-quality tool is a one-off expense. If you make the reasonable assumption that a Domino will last you 10 years with no further costs other than the purchase of domino tenon stock, then the cost of owning one is less than 30 cents per day. I am not sure what the extra daily cost would be, if you needed to take out a loan in order to afford the initial purchase, but I doubt if it would be more than 10 cents a day over 10 years. So the cost of owning a Domino when looked at over the likely life of the tool would be much less than the cost of a daily can of beer or a pack of cigarettes - indulgences which are not normally regarded as the exclusive preserve of the rich.

David

[Dennis O'Leary]

This is a hard row to hoe D. you might be better off in the shed building something, or having a beer on the Friday drivel back home.....:rolleyes:

I looked at it (amongst many others) this way; friends bought a sleigh type KS bed, nicely done (in stained Radiata pine:eek: ) that cost them over $US3500. Assuming that the matress was say $1200, the timber bit was about $2300. I was lucky that my timber cost zip, but had I bought it I suppose it would have been about $1K. Assuming you guys can get The Dom for about $US1200, you can charge yourself out at about $2/hr, and come out even - and own a Domino. Paid for in one project. There ya go, see?

Same would go for say a dining table, or a new kitchen, or maybe a bedroom suite, etc.

Good luck.

[Art Mann]

But how much will they spend on wood, hardware and consumables like glue and finishing products for their projects over the course of several years? It seems like much more time and energy is spent discussing the cost of tools, or shopping around for the best deals (and I'm as guilty of this as the next guy), when in the long run the costs of wood etc may end up dwarfing the cost of many of our tools.

Look at it this way. If a guy has a $1000 to spend on woodworking for a year, will he spend it all on a hand held joinery machine and then wait a year to use it or will he use a much cheaper tool and spend the rest of the money on other less expensive tools and materials to make something useful? I know it is hard for some people to comprehend, but this is exactly the choice a majority of woodworkers have to make.

I have said all this because of a thread I read the other day (may have been another WW board). Some guy posted a message and photo about a panel saw he made from plans in a magazine. I doubt if he spent $150 on it. He was obviously very proud of it and pleased with it's performance. I went to his website and discovered that he is mostly blind and disabled. Well, along comes this guy who replies something to the effect that it was a waste of effort and he would be better off buying a Festool circular saw and saw guide. I just can't bring myself to believe that this second guy was such a complete arrogant a$$. I have to believe that the second guy was just ignorant of the way things are with people of lesser means.

My own financial situation is such that I can buy whatever woodworking equipment I want whenever I want it within reason. But, it was not always this way. I remember when a 1975 $200 sorry Craftsman tablesaw was one of my most prized posessions. Perhaps that is the reason I have not pre-ordered my sexy $1000 handheld joinery machine.

[David Dundas]

People who don't feel motivated to lay out $1000 dollars for a Festool Domino can still enjoy the benefits of floating-tenon joinery using Domino tenons by routing the mortises with metric spiral upcut bits. Such bits are as rare as hen's teeth in North America, but they are manufactured by CMT in Italy - see http://www.cmtutensili.com/prodotti.asp?FamCatalogo=191 . I hasten to add that I have no commercial connection with CMT. I imagine that the metric bits should be obtainable from CMT's distributors in the US and Canada.

Bits with 5, 6, 8, and 10 mm cutting diameters - to match the thickness of Domino tenons - are all available on 8 mm shanks, which should fit in a 1/2" to 5/16" bushing adaptor.

David

[Greg Millen]

That's all they are, statistics, but interesting nonetheless.

I looked at the general forum General Woodworking and Power Tools (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=3) then sorted it by views. The Festool thread is #10 with a bullet (12,000+ hits), the other threads are now relatively defunct.

This indicates to me that Sawmill Creek members have an inordinate interest in the Domino. Their interest is so high that it is higher than any other tool thread, period. That indicates to me that a lot higher percentage of woodworkers are interested than normal, and following that, it is likely the uptake of the tool will be a higher percentage than normal.

If one is to assume there is a high interest in the fact it is a new tool only, then I'd expect to see a similar high interest in all tools that are new, which is not the case.

To tackle an earlier analogy, a Mercedes and another vehicle can perform the same role at the same speed (transit A to B). A Domino is performing the role much faster than its competitors and is portable. However I do agree that a real competitor that does the same thing more cheaply will be very popular - and that brings me to the final point I'd like to make.

The discussion has not been about whether the Domino does the job or not, it is about price. I can pretty much guarantee that if it sold for $50 then 99% of the forums viewers would stampede off to get one. So, the real issue is the price point decision by Festool, and the price point desires of the potential buyers. On this aspect I agree with some others who have stated that time will be a major factor. For a lot of us it would be nice to be able to joint legs etc very quickly and accurately so we can finish a project in a weekend instead of two or three. It is the same reason we fly instead of driving the Mercedes - to save time.

[Jim Becker]

Greg, While I do believe there is a high interest, relatively speaking, for Domino within the SMC community...especially with the mix of hobbyists and pros we have...the number of hits on a thread are statistically not a good measure of the "actual interest in buying". I say that because popular threads are just that...a lot of folks looking in on the discussion which we can all admit has been, umm...stimulating.

[Art Mann]

A few weeks ago, the hot topic was Sawstop. I would guess the number of posts on this subject eclipsed the Domino threads right now by an order of magnitude. A lot of folks are interested in both machines (including myself) but I would guess the Sawstop has less than 1% market share. I don't think that "buzz" equals sales.

The point about being able to do a tedious job in record time with the Domino is a good one. For this reason, I will probabaly get one at some point. I just wanted to make the point that, for a majority of woodworkers, time is not more valuable than money. To borrow another person's analogy, air travel may be the quickest way to get there and a Mercedes may be a stylish way to make the trip, but if all you have is gas money, then you will take whatever vehicle you already own.

Based on my observations since joining the board, I would say that this community is definitely not representative of the woodworking community at large. We are mostly a pretty affluent bunch.

Getting all the way back to the original poster's question, I think the Domino is an innovative product that will be very useful to those who can afford it. It will have no effect on the great majority of woodworkers.

[Jim Becker]

Based on my observations since joining the board, I would say that this community is definitely not representative of the woodworking community at large. We are mostly a pretty affluent bunch.

I don't quite agree with that...IMO, SMC's community is a really good representation of the woodworking community at large (at least those who are Internet active) when you look at the registered user community holistically...that's actually to be expected statistically with a larger sample. Now it may be true that there are a lot of frequent posters who embrace the higher end, but that's starting to have a domino effect, pardon the expression :), on the community as a whole because folks are becoming more aware of options that don't appear on the shelves of the local 'borg or Sears store. This awareness is helping more folks understand the value of saving a little longer to make their purchases cost less over time.

[David Dundas]

I was disappointed in the review of the Domino in the current Fine Woodworking magazine. The review misleadingly implies that the domino tenons are sized in inch, rather than metric, dimensions. It also opines that dominoes would not be strong enough for the joinery of a large table, such as a dining table. This is nonsense in my view; two 10 mm x 50 mm dominoes would make a very strong joint. On the other hand, their criticism that the index pins are too far (37 mm in fact) from the center of a mortise that the machine cuts is fully justified. It is a major design flaw, which hopefully will be rectified in later models.

The review also omits to mention that the Domino has been available in Europe and Australia for almost a year, and that release in the US has been delayed only because of the expected heavy demand, and the need to manufacture adequate stock to meet it.

[Mike Wilkins]

Got a chance to see this new innovation in action at the Greensboro woodworking show last Thursday. Great concept. Its like a slot mortiser that is usually floor mounted or attached to a jointer/planer, just in a portable form. Easy to index/align, cuts accurate slots, can make allowances for glue squeeze-out, useful on any size timbers and miters, no need to mark your location with a pencil mark like your biscuit jointer (unless you want to), easy adjustments for different size slots, easy bit change, and the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound.
Seriously, this is one neat concept. The slots themselves are not like the usual biscuit we are used to; solid straight grain beech. Does not swell up like a biscuit does when it meets glue.
Only hinderance I can see at this point is price. Around $700, which only includes a small amount of slots. It will also make for a much stronger joint than a biscuit. But I am not ready to toss my biscuit machine yet.
Have fun.

[Daniel Hundrup]

They are $700. The introductory price is $660. I had the chance to use one at my local Woodcraft store this weekend. I ordered one! It is the answer Iv'e been looking for to join the rails & stiles & rockers on cradles I make. It will significantly ruduce the time I was spending joining these pieces.
Dan Hundrup, Lewiston, Id.

[Eric Wong]

Well, I bought a Leigh FMT last year....sort of wish I would have waited. But I love the FMT. Its just not quite as handy as the Domino.

[John Lucas]

...The review misleadingly implies that the domino tenons are sized in inch, rather than metric, dimensions.


In a time when most of us are trying to make the move from Inches to Metric, this is stupid on the part of FWW. They are supposed to be our "leaders." The easiest way to earn metric is to start to use it.

[Al Willits]

"""""""""
Now it may be true that there are a lot of frequent posters who embrace the higher end, but that's starting to have a domino effect, pardon the expression
"""""""""

As a newbie I have notice that the upper end is definitely more vocal than the rest on these types of issues, not necessarily always a good thing though, seems to be a bit of class elitism at times.
Enjoy the reviews, its the personal comments that sometime irk.
But it does make for some interesting reading at times...:)
imho

Al

[Bob Childress]

And for your information, English is the most common language on this planet.

Actually, it's Mandarin Chinese by over 2 to 1. :rolleyes:

[Glenn Clabo]

There are 6,912 known living languages in the world today. 347 (or approximately 5%) of the world's languages have at least one million speakers and account for 94% of the world's population. By contrast, the remaining 95% of languages are spoken by only 6% of the world's people. Languages spoken by the most people are in order Chinese (Mandarin), Spanish, English, Hindi, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, Japanese, German (standard).

[David Dundas]

No offense, but I have been hearing that diatribe since I was a kid. I had no interest in learning the metric system then and I certainly don't want to learn it now. Why should we.
WE are the greatest Nation on this planet and we have been doing Imperial (inches) for over 300 years. Why should we learn metric?
And for your information, English is the most common language on this planet. And if I have to press 1 (one) for English...I hang up the phone.
Gary K. :(

Actually, I believe that America's founding fathers made the metric system the official system of measurement in the United States. Unfortunately, no American government has enforced it.

The reason why you should learn metric is that it is far easier and more convenient to use. I know, since I was brought up with the inch system in England, and had to learn the tedious and error-prone methods of dealing with multiplying and dividing fractions of an inch. I now use the metric system exclusively, except when writing articles to be published in America.

[Robert Mayer]

Any idea how much of a copyright that festool would have on the dominoe? Could someone copy the design easily? Im sure porter cable and dewalt are eyeballing their own version.

[Bill Esposito]

In a time when most of us are trying to make the move from Inches to Metric, this is stupid on the part of FWW. They are supposed to be our "leaders." The easiest way to earn metric is to start to use it.

My personal opinion is that I'd prefer imperial myself....While metric isn't "hard" I just haven't set my mind to memorizing the cross reference between my standard imperial measurements and millimeters. I am going to do it but I do so reluctantly.

[Pete Brown]

No offense, but I have been hearing that diatribe since I was a kid. I had no interest in learning the metric system then and I certainly don't want to learn it now. Why should we.
WE are the greatest Nation on this planet and we have been doing Imperial (inches) for over 300 years. Why should we learn metric?
And for your information, English is the most common language on this planet. And if I have to press 1 (one) for English...I hang up the phone.
Gary K. :(

I don't know Gary, but this looks suspiciously like a troll.

Pete

[Pete Brown]

Any idea how much of a copyright that festool would have on the dominoe? Could someone copy the design easily? Im sure porter cable and dewalt are eyeballing their own version.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe this would fall under patent law. Festool would be foolish not to patent it. If patented, any company would be a fool to try to get away with copying it :)

Pete

[Dennis O'Leary]

My personal opinion is that I'd prefer imperial myself....While metric isn't "hard" I just haven't set my mind to memorizing the cross reference between my standard imperial measurements and millimeters. I am going to do it but I do so reluctantly.

I don't think that cross-referencing anything but the very 'close' sizes in drills/router bits will work - a cold turkey approach would be easier I'd say, though having worked in metric it's already easy for me. My engineering mind finds that 650mm is more logical and easier than 2' 1 3/16".

Hey Gary - you heard of xenophobia? Sheesh.

[Bill Esposito]

Dennis,

That's what I meant. I actually learned more metric working with the Domino than any other tool I've used in the past.

[Gary Keedwell]

I don't think that cross-referencing anything but the very 'close' sizes in drills/router bits will work - a cold turkey approach would be easier I'd say, though having worked in metric it's already easy for me. My engineering mind finds that 650mm is more logical and easier than 2' 1 3/16".

Hey Gary - you heard of xenophobia? Sheesh.

xenophobe-"One unduly fearful or contemptuous of strangers or foreigners" Before you name-call....you should know what it means. Can you really blame a guy who has used the Imperial system exclusively for 57 years, to be a little apprehensive about learning a new numerical system? And by the way, I have been around the world, including Down Under and Southeast Asia, and I can tell you for certain that I harbor no fears of either strangers or foreigners.

[Gary Keedwell]

I don't know Gary, but this looks suspiciously like a troll.

Pete
Who you calling a troll? What the heck is a troll?:mad: I'm starting to detect a rather glib attitude. SMILE

[David Dundas]

My personal opinion is that I'd prefer imperial myself....While metric isn't "hard" I just haven't set my mind to memorizing the cross reference between my standard imperial measurements and millimeters. I am going to do it but I do so reluctantly.

Bill,

The only conversion factor that you need to remember is 1" = 25.4 mm. Since this factor is exactly correct, you can easily convert, using a calculator. It helps too, if you remember can remember the decimal equivalents of the common fractions (1/8 = 0.125; 1/16 = 0.0625, etc). I work entirely in millimeters for woodworking purposes; so rather than using two units for, say, 5' 9 3/4", I am just dealing with 1518 mm (to the nearest millimeter), or 1517.65 mm, to be exact.

Lee Valley used to issue to its customers credit card sized conversion tables, giving fractions of an inch, millimeters and decimal inches.

[Per Swenson]

Silly me,

I have converted to Festool exclusively on the job site.

And the only thing I know about the metric system

is Virgina Slims were a silly millimeter longer.

All I use is a pencil....to put a mark and story sticks to remember

them..

#2 Ticonderoga I might add.

Per

[Rick Christopherson]

Any idea how much of a copyright that festool would have on the dominoe? Could someone copy the design easily? Im sure porter cable and dewalt are eyeballing their own version.The Domino Tenon is patented, so depending on the scope of the patent, it is not likely to be duplicated. Furthermore, the custom equipement to make them is also quite spendy, so it won't be a simple upstart operation.

[Pete Brown]

Who you calling a troll? What the heck is a troll?:mad: I'm starting to detect a rather glib attitude. SMILE

Like I said, I don't know you, but the message read like one.

Anyway, for the educational aspect: definition of troll/trolling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll). In short, it is a message posted just to raise hackles, and is the type of thing that usually signals that the thread is near its end :)

Pete

[Dennis O'Leary]

xenophobe-"One unduly fearful or contemptuous of strangers or foreigners" Before you name-call....you should know what it means. Can you really blame a guy who has used the Imperial system exclusively for 57 years, to be a little apprehensive about learning a new numerical system? And by the way, I have been around the world, including Down Under and Southeast Asia, and I can tell you for certain that I harbor no fears of either strangers or foreigners.

FOr completion you omitted 'hatred....of their politics or culture'. I suppose that one would have to read your (since deleted) post from a 'foreign' point of view to read between the lines - it's pretty 'out there' and parochial, for a BB accessible by other non-great Nations. I can understand not wanting to change - my dad is just the same (he will measure '1m and 9/16!', so is sort of getting there), but after all folks thought the earth was flat, sun moved around us etc etc for hundreds of years - didn't mean that they were right.

Each to their own. The thing is, Herr Doktor didn't give anyone a choice.

BTW if you ignore measurements like centimetre, decimetre and even the metre, you only have one to deal with - the millimetre, or fractions of it. Plans done to ISO standards have only mm on them - easy!

SO 9/16=0.56"x25.4=14.28mm - call it 14mm. no worries.

1"3 9/32"=15.28"*25.4=388.11mm call it 388mm, and consider changing the plan to 390 or even 400mm.

[Gary Keedwell]

FOr completion you omitted 'hatred....of their politics or culture'. I suppose that one would have to read your (since deleted) post from a 'foreign' point of view to read between the lines - it's pretty 'out there' and parochial, for a BB accessible by other non-great Nations. I can understand not wanting to change - my dad is just the same (he will measure '1m and 9/16!', so is sort of getting there), but after all folks thought the earth was flat, sun moved around us etc etc for hundreds of years - didn't mean that they were right.

Each to their own. The thing is, Herr Doktor didn't give anyone a choice.

BTW if you ignore measurements like centimetre, decimetre and even the metre, you only have one to deal with - the millimetre, or fractions of it. Plans done to ISO standards have only mm on them - easy!

SO 9/16=0.56"x25.4=14.28mm - call it 14mm. no worries.

1"3 9/32"=15.28"*25.4=388.11mm call it 388mm, and consider changing the plan to 390 or even 400mm.

Good nite Dennis...Dennis good nite....:rolleyes:

[John Bailey]

Rick,

Well said!!!

I am please to see the guys from "Down Under" posting here. I've both enjoyed & learn form the posts on their site. No one has a monopoly on good ideas....

Unfortunately "some" Americans have given the World the impression that "All" Americans have a monopoly on arrogance... :o

Let's end this here.

The tone on SMC is friendly.

Let's keep SMC a friendly site.

Let's keep it positive.

jim

Thanks Jim,

That, also, was well said. Because this thread is getting off topic and moving in a negative direction - probably because everything that needs to be said about the Domino has been said - we'll be closing this thread now. Thanks to those who've added to the good info about Domino. I'm sure the subject will come up again.

Thanks for your understanding.

John

[Rick Christopherson]

Good nite Dennis...Dennis good nite....:rolleyes:Gary your indignation makes me ashamed to be an American!!!

Do you have any idea how your previous posting is being circulated across the planet as a mockery of the American viewpoint of the international culture we live in? Poeple don't see this as just one single cranky old man; they see this as representative of all of us.

This country fought for the right to voice our own opinions, but there are times when you need to keep your narrow opinons to yourself too. Freedom of speech is based on responsibility. Take some responsibility. The world has grown a little larger than just a few city blocks that word of mouth can spread.

[Jim Dailey]

Rick,

Well said!!!

I am please to see the guys from "Down Under" posting here. I've both enjoyed & learn form the posts on their site. No one has a monopoly on good ideas....

Unfortunately "some" Americans have given the World the impression that "All" Americans have a monopoly on arrogance... :o

Let's end this here.

The tone on SMC is friendly.

Let's keep SMC a friendly site.

Let's keep it positive.

jim