Looking for a picture of MM pillow blocks [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

View Full Version : Looking for a picture of MM pillow blocks

Mark Hubler

12-21-2006, 9:33 PM

Jim Becker

12-21-2006, 10:21 PM

I don't know if this is what you are referring to, but here's a scan from the Technomax S315 WS and S350 WS brochure that shows the trunnion/motor setup. Not all the machines use this setup, however. For a slider, I believe that the blade stays in the same plane when it's tilted for a bevel cut, but I can't prove that...yet. Perhaps Lou Sansone or Bill Grumbine can chime in on that.

53178

Rick Lizek

12-22-2006, 7:42 AM

When I worked as a tech for a dealer ten years ago the Minimax SC3 slider used a sort of pivot instead of a trunion. It was obviously a step to keep the price down. It worked fine and did change the relationship of the measuring scale if you tilted the saw but it wasn't enough to get anyone really upset. We sold a ton of those saws as it was the only slider for the low money. Initially we were selling them for $3,300. It was a great saw for entry level. You won't find it on the more expensive Minimax saws. If they ar still using the pivot it would be on the low end saw. It's not a pillow block at all. Just a low profile small pivot located right under the table to keep it as close to the workings of a trunnion as possible.

lou sansone

12-22-2006, 8:25 AM

I have read various posts on how some of the Minimax saws attach the motor assembly via "pillow blocks". Does anyone have any pictures on what this looks like? I also wondered if, as the blade is moved from 90 degrees to 45 degrees, doe the blade move sideways too?

as rick said, I believe the early sc3's had that type of pivot, and may still. The felder 900 series actually uses them in their design. I would think that the blade has to have some movement as you have said when tilting. Are you thinking about a mm sc3?
lou

Mark Hubler

12-22-2006, 12:00 PM

As I understand it, the CU300 and smaller combination machines, along with the SCW4 and smaller table saws use a "pillow block" mounting system, vs the cast iron trunions on the S315 (like the picture Jim Becker posted) and CU410 Elite. Having only used "trunion" style saws (Delta), I wondered how these machines worked and if there are any downsides.

One of the pillow block comments I was refering to is this post by Paul Cresti on 1-30-06

"My thoughts/views on the Robland 3200 is this: it is a tank period but the problem is it is a tank from the 19th century. The slider is made up of bolted plates not an extrusion as far as I know. There is no real true trunion and it is connected to the under side of the table using the "pillow block" technology but get this it is welded not bolted. So if you have any problems you are out of luck. That said if it is aligned correctly it can be a decent saw, a little rough around the edges and an older technology but not too bad.

There are differences in the SCW4, SCW4ws and the S315ws. The ws versions are the longer sliders with the 8.5ft stroke slides. The SCW4 is the 5.5ft short stroke. The main difference between the two is the SCW4ws has the "pillow block" type assembly for the blade & motor assembly and the S315ws has a true saw trunion. The S315ws is also (especially the new version) is just a bigh beefier all around, slider wider and thicker, more cast iron etc.... I would say the SC4ws is a perfect slider for the hobbiest who is not pounding on his machine all day and everyday. The S315ws is designed to be in the small/medium pro shop. Not that either one is bad it is just they are sized differently and priced differently to meet different needs."

I had the opportunity to look at a Hammer machine, with the saw attachment looking similar to a door hinge, with the pivot attached to the table top. Is the CU300 the same?

I have looked at several brochures, along with the CU300 owners manual, and none of them address the saw construction. If anyone has a picture, or an exploded parts detail, it would answer my question.

Rick Lizek

12-22-2006, 12:27 PM

"I would say the SC4ws is a perfect slider for the hobbiest who is not pounding on his machine all day and everyday."

I would have to disagree with that. We sold many SC3's to plenty of cabinet shops who usd them day in and day out with no complaints or major problems over a nimber of years. Since then they have improved the Minimax line considerably. 15 years ago there was a distinct difference between the SCMI line and Minimax line. I never had any complaints on the saw hinging on pivots as opposed to trunions. It actually bothered me more but after some testing it wasn't signifigant to worry over.
You might find more info at the Minimax Users Group. Pretty sure it's on yahoo. They seem to have a group for everything, even more than one on many topics.

lou sansone

12-22-2006, 1:44 PM

mark
the folks at mm are very helpful and will be able to answer your questions. I tend to agree with rick on this. the pivots are not the most common way of doing this movement, but they do work. I would recommend that as you look these saws over, you look at sum total of the entire saw, and not just one particualr design feature over all the rest.

best wishes
lou

Jim Becker

12-22-2006, 2:12 PM

Mark, nice information. One correction...the SC4 WS (http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage_norm&product_id=226&category_id=24&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26), while having the heavier cast iron trunnion still has the short stroke wagon. I would have liked it to be "easily available" with the 8.5' slider, but that would have been special order. One must buy the S315 WS to get the longer slider, but in the end the price difference isn't all that great during the current sale pricing on the bigger saw considering they get $500 for the longer slider as an option on some of the combos. There is only a $700 difference between the two machines right now. The cast iron trunion in the SC4 WS is about an $800 premium over the "standard" SC4 with the sale price on the latter; less under normal pricing.

Mark Hubler

12-22-2006, 8:17 PM

I have been researching saws that can rip a 4x8 sheet in either direction (8' to the left, or 8' long). A S315 would be in the running, along with a saw-shaper combo, or a full combination. I have been trying to figure out what the small differences are in the machines and if I really need the extras (I already have a shaper, a tilting router table and a larger jointer-planer). I have been trying to see these machines locally, but my MM salesman has been a little slow in arranging it. So, if there are any MM owners, in the greater SF Bay area, that would not mind someone looking "under the skirt" of their saw, I would like to talk to you.

I have searched the Yahoo Minimax group and have had no luck.

Any volunteers?

Jim Becker

12-22-2006, 8:28 PM

Mark, given that you have a shaper and a J/P...the saw is the way to go, IMHO, if you have the space. I don't have the shaper, but still plan on going that route as it makes the most sense for what I do. Of course, the ST4 is a really nice option for the S/S combo and it's a very nice shaper, too...so many choices! LOL!

Todd Solomon

12-23-2006, 1:27 AM

So, if there are any MM owners, in the greater SF Bay area, that would not mind someone looking "under the skirt" of their saw, I would like to talk to you.

Any volunteers?

Hi Mark,

As you know, I'm no longer a MM sliding table saw owner, but I do have a Felder K700S Plus. I am in San Jose. You're welcome to come by and take a look and a test drive, any time.

Todd

Todd Solomon

12-23-2006, 1:37 AM

John Stanley

12-23-2006, 8:22 AM

Hi Mark,

As you know, I'm no longer a MM sliding table saw owner, but I do have a Felder K700S Plus. I am in San Jose. You're welcome to come by and take a look and a test drive, any time.

Todd

Curious, what made you switch?

lou sansone

12-23-2006, 9:04 AM

Curious, what made you switch?

oh boy ... holiday fun time :)

I won't speak for Todd, but I can speak for my own search between what seems the best 2 saws in that market space. There are other saws in this price range we are talking about ( under 12k just for the saw - not a combo machine ), but they are either of less quality or from firms with less us presence ( steton comes to mind as an example ).

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=47797 my recent post about my s315

Mark is doing the right thing in trying to look under the hood of both of these machines. I have found that some folks are quite passionate about their purchases, and some are a little more objective about them. I am one of those in the more objective camp, and from what I know about Todd, from his posts here and on the FOG, I believe he is also quite objective about his purchase, and I would expect a very measured response from him. I am actually interested in his view point.

I found that each machine really has excellent quality and some very good design features. Each goes about it slightly differently. My overall impression is that the Felder group of machines are very well made and have the edge on the mm line in a few of the refinement areas, but they are more expensive by ~ 20% to 25 %. They can be ordered with a mind boggling array of options and that is part of the minus in my opinion. MM has your basic 315 that has just about all the options as standard and one basic price. For Felder, I was dealing with the east cost sales office and a particular sales person in that office, so my experience is not universal. I found it very hard to pin down price and configurations with Felder ( I am an engineer / scientist by trade and quite capable of processing information, but found it took at least 6 or 7 phone calls before I really began to understand Felder's pricing policy ). In short, it seemed hard to buy the Felder due to what ever internal sales process that I was being subjected to. I am sure other folks here just sailed right through that process and have a nice green or blue machine in their shop.

I have owned and rebuilt several saws and build pretty high tech machinery for my day job ( gee can you believe a scientist / engineer can actually run a Bridgeport and a MIG welder ! mind blowing ) so I do have an eye for design and simplicity. It seemed to me that MM came up with a design that was very functional, sturdy and simple, and which was less costly in the long run. But, I do think they should improve their cross cut extrusions to be more like the Felder line of equipment. To be fair, I really felt that the 315 has a better motor tilt assembly and dust collection set up than the 700 series. MM uses a full dust flask design that Felder also uses on the 900 series, and that all the larger and more expensive scmi saws use. I also just did not like the cantilevered 700 design. Call it personal preference or what have you, I just did not like it. Does Todd's saw cut as good as a 315? I am sure the wood does not know the difference. But enough for now. look the saws over and make your choice, either way, a slider is just an unbelievable improvement over the standard cabinet saw.
best wishes
Lou

John Stanley

12-23-2006, 9:32 AM

Jim Becker

12-23-2006, 10:28 AM

I am not sure what I did wrong in asking my question. I am new to the forum though. In my going over the internet info it seems most people that do any kind of upgrades are to move into machines with some vastly superior technology like maybe electronics or something....just curious because I would like to get a european slider and am beginning my research

You didn't do anything wrong! Lou was being lightly humorous. There are many reasons that folks might "switch" between brands on a tool over time...including an "incredible opportunity". I'm sure that you'll find Todd's story interesting once he replies.

lou sansone

12-23-2006, 11:25 AM

Todd Solomon

12-23-2006, 12:21 PM

Curious, what made you switch?

Hi John,

Would you believe that I switched because I won a Felder in their "Sliding for Success" drawing? That was pretty sweet, I had not won anything in my life, and I won a Felder slider. Specifically, I won a Felder at 1/2 price, which saved me $5K. If I had not won the Felder, I would have stuck with my MM. It was a great machine, I was very happy with it. Like Lou, I am a mechanical engineer that designs machinery, and went over the machines with a fine tooth. I had owned my MM for about 1-1/2 years when I bought the Felder. I basically sold the MM for the price that I bought the Felder, so it was a free swap (excluding shipping).

I chose to get the Felder because of some of the refinements that Lou mentioned. Here are some of the details:

First- Regarding the posts about trunnions, I feel pretty strongly that this is not an issue on saws of this level. I have never heard of a Felder owner having issues due to the trunnion design (or a MM 300 series or SC4 owner, for that matter). Felder's done an excellent job in the engineering of their trunnion, but in a different way than MM did.

The trunnion argument is similar to the sliding table argument that could be made in favor of Felder. On their 700 and 900 series, Felder uses cross-roller bearings, whereas MM uses ball bearings in their sliders. Theoretically, rollers have about a 10X higher contact stiffness and much higher load capacity than balls, because rollers have line contact and balls have point contact. Felder did this because over time and in very heavy use, the ball bearing sliders may wear and loosen, and the cross-rollers won't. So, one might argue that the Felder slider is superior to the MM. The reality is I believe that MM's ball bearing design is sufficient. The cross-roller design has advantages, but these would not be seen except for in the heaviest production use. I think the trunnions, like the ball bearings Vs. cross-rollers argument, are non-issues for hobbyists and all but the most demanding production environments.

But after spending time with both brands, there are some differences that I think are really important. The slider crosscut fence systems are the business end of sliders, where you are directly impacted every time you use them. This is where I think my Felder shines over my previous MM. The quality and feel of the flip-stops, the stiffness of the crosscut fence, the 0 degree stop where you adjust squareness of the cut, the pre-set pin-holes at common miter angles. The availability of Felder's parallel cutting jig, where you can rip even long narrow strips on the slider. I also like the rigidity and micro-adjust on the rip fence. The Felder also has a remarkable dado set that uses inserts like a Byrd helical head, that is exceptional (although pricey). My MM did not have dado, but recently, MM has added dado to their standalone sliding saws- good news. Keep in mind my comparison is to an SC4-WS, which had the same frame and slider as the S315, but the S315 had a better trunnion and improved flipstops (and a few other differences). And MM has improved the S315 recently with it's Technomax line.

That said, I think at this level, it really comes down to value for your dollar and personal preference. The S315 and the Felder 700 series are both outstanding saws, I would and do recommend both. I think that the S315 is the best saw at it's price point. A similarly equipped Felder 700 would cost about 20% more. It's up to the individual to decide whether the price premium is worth it. You should see and try them both, first hand. You really can't go wrong with either saw- they are both outstanding machines.

Todd

John Stanley

12-23-2006, 12:49 PM

Todd Solomon

12-23-2006, 12:58 PM

hi john
Jim is right, I really was just being humorous. your question is a good one, and I believe that 99.9% of our members can discuss things in a spirit of respect and maturity. Having said that, I do know that in the past questions like this can provide excellent fodder for the "horned bovines" in the bunch :) :). Over the years my horns have morphed into a "handshake" and a "smile" for most things.

regards
Lou

That's what I love about this forum- Intelligent opinions, discussed with a level of balance and fairness not always seen in other forums. Glad to see some of the horned bovines are not stirring up too much trouble these days! Although I've been a woodworker for some years, I'm new to this group, and really enjoy the people.

Todd

Todd Solomon

12-23-2006, 1:12 PM

Thanks Tod,
If I read you correctly you chose a MiniMax over the Felder saw initially? Why was that?

Then you won a Felder? Do they still have contests like that?

Now that you used both of these saws was either one not accurate enough for you or did not do want you want?

Did you look at any other brands? and what were they?

I chose the MM because it was about 1/2 price of the Felder at the time. I Since then, MM has creeped up in price, closing the gap. But they've also added improvements, models and features, so you get more for the additional money. I want to emphasize that they're both great brands, and you've got to look at each piece of machinery individually. Bandsaws, for example- I think MM has the advantage over Felder. I just love my MM16.

After owning both, and if I were starting over, I'd try to buy a Felder. But if I were limited on my budget, I'd choose the S315.

I looked at Hammer, which is the lower end of Felder. Promising stuff, but I've seen a few quality issues and quirks over the years. I will stick with MM and Felder as my favorite brands for now, but will always keep an eye on the innovations in the Hammer line.

Knapp is also very nice, but they've gone bankrupt. They probably won't go away though, as rumor has it that Robland (a part owner) may take over manufacture of the Knapp line. But this looks risky to me.

I know a lot of ex-Robland owners that upgraded to MM and Felder for a number of reasons, so I decided against them.

Todd

John Stanley

12-23-2006, 1:28 PM

Tod,
Thanks for you time. Where are you located? I am in NJ and was wondering if you are close if I could come by and see your saw. If not do you know of anyone in my area?

Jim Becker

12-23-2006, 1:34 PM

John, Todd's on the left-coast if I'm not mistaken. But you will certainly be welcome to look at my future gloat when it becomes said gloat... ;)

John Stanley

12-23-2006, 1:49 PM

Thanks Jim,
Where are you located? Do you have a Felder saw like Tod?

Mark Hubler

12-23-2006, 2:47 PM

John, here is some of my research on the various brands of saws:

Minimmax and Robland brochures (right side of the page "Download Brochures") http://www.sbwoodworkingmachinery.co.uk/...e=8&sermod= These are the CE versions of the machines, so the USA ones may be slightly different, mainly in table length and dado capability.

Minimax S315 WS and S350 WS brochure http://www.lekime.be/PDF/MiniMax%20S315-S350%20WS%20-%20ENG.pdf

Felder demonstration and products video downloads(about a hour long and very impressive) http://www.woodenedge.com/felders.htm This video is a couple of years old.

Hammer products video (previous model) http://www.woodenedge.com/hammer.htm Note - the Hammer demo is the same as the Felder demo.

Bill Grumbine

12-23-2006, 6:27 PM

Tod,
Thanks for you time. Where are you located? I am in NJ and was wondering if you are close if I could come by and see your saw. If not do you know of anyone in my area?

Hi John

I am in eastern PA, and have a Mini Max CU300 Smart. If you would like to come by and see it, you are welcome to do so, although I will warn you that you might get sucked into woodturning if you come to my place. :D

I bought a MM combo machine because I am one of those unusual woodturners who also makes furniture, and I have a small shop. Going to the combo machine makes for more room, and more room for lathes. I bought it over the Felder because of the price. I agree with Todd 100% about the stiffness of the Felder miter attachment over the MM. I don't care much for the MM one, although I don't use it very often. Maybe that is why I don't use it often. I will usually stick the big cutting table on first for any cross cutting I have to do. It doesn't take all that much longer, and it gives a lot more support to the wood.

There is a learning curve, but once you get over the hump, the machine is a pleasure to use. Mine has dado capability, but I don't use it much, preferring to use a router for that. Changeover times for the combo are less than it took me to move stuff around to get to my stand alone machines when I had them.

But to get back to the OP, I don't have any idea about trunnions or pillow blocks. I can't even get my arm inside the machine, much less my head. Sorry I am not much help there.

Bill

John Stanley

12-23-2006, 8:27 PM

Thanks guys for all your help. I have a lot to look at. I did some looking in your past messages here and I noticed two guys that had a lot to say, one was John and the other was Paul? are they still around I think one was in NJ somewhere? Either way I am in no rush and will take my time going over everything I can get my hands on. Merry Christmas everyone.

Jim Becker

12-23-2006, 9:05 PM

John, Paul Cresti is in Skillman NJ, but he's not posting online at the present time. He has the S35...one of the "big" MM saws, but had the S315 WS previous to that. (non Technomax version) John Renzetti is an SMC member and is located west of Philadelphia near Longwood Gardens. He's got a very nice Felder setup in his shop.

I'm in Bucks County PA outside of Doyletown and New Hope. I'm in process of aquiring a Technomax S315WS, but it is not in my shop yet...so much to do before that happens.

There are likely quite a few MM and Felder machines in NJ and the surrounding area...ask on their respective Yahoo groups as well as to the companies for references you can visit. Felder's east cost office is near Willmington DE, too, which isn't all that far to drive if you want to visit the show-room. I believe that both vendors will be at the Edison show in March, too.

Bill Grumbine

12-23-2006, 9:21 PM

I believe that both vendors will be at the Edison show in March, too.

I was talking to Sam Blasco the other day and he said he will be there, so I am assuming Mini Max will be too. :D So, a new saw, eh Jim?

Bill

John Renzetti

12-24-2006, 9:47 AM

hi, Haven't had much time to post lately, but then my friend Jim Becker mentioned my name...
Whether the MM CU300, Felder, etc has pillow block bearings or cast trunnions is really not that important.( A lot of this is sales gottchas.) I know that the Format Kappa 40 I use has the pillow block arrangement while the K700 that Todd uses has a single cast trunnion and the Kappa 450 has the double cast trunnion. It's just a system, the size and manufacturing process are probably more important. When I flew helicopters in Vietnam, the rotor system used lubricated pillow blocks. When I heard that my new Kappa 40 had this system, my reaction was, "that's good, that system was good enough for that high stress area in a rotor system so it must be good enough for a saw assembly."
Go look at all the machines, they're all good for what they were designed to do. I'm out in Chadds Ford, PA. You're welcome to stop by.
take care,
John

Ed Kowaski

12-24-2006, 12:41 PM

I have had the SC4 WS and the S315 in my shop. The pillow block/trunnion is a non issue BUT the way the scoring blade moves on the SC4 could be an issue. As you tilt the blades to 45 the scoring blade on the SC4 raises considerably and the height adjustment screw dissappears.

Jim, :) :) :)

Mark Hubler

01-05-2007, 12:13 PM

I found a picture of a pillow block, in the Owners' Manual for a Grizzly G0558 Sliding Table Saw. The saw pivot is bolted to the underside of the top, via a block with a half circle cut in it (part 275 in the picture). I looked at a Hammer C31 and a Minimax CU 300, and both had similair methods of attachment.