DC Remote Blastgate Recommendations

[Doug Shepard]

I'm at the point of my DC install project where I need to start planning out and buying the ducting and remote blast gates. I don't need a remote power switch for turning the DC on, but my blast gates will be overhead in the garage rafters and won't be easily reached so I need to be able to switch them remotely. I also don't need the type (like RoboGate?) that switch when a machine is powered up. Any recommendations on what brands or models I should be looking at? Don't mind spending what I need to, but would like to avoid paying for features that I dont need or want.

TIA

[Jim Becker]

Doug, if there is any way you can get the gates below the ceiling level to where you can reach them, even if on "tippy toes", it's going to be a lot more convenient...and less costly. And build your gates if you have the time...they will have less duct diameter limitation than the commercial units.

[M Toupin]

Doug,

If cost is a factor or you enjoy tinkering, here's an effective solution by Jeffrey Makiel. Looks like it would fit between the rafters nicely.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23591&highlight=automatic+blast+gate

Mike

[David Duke]

I'm with Jim on this one, I believe that I would try and get the gates below ceiling level especially if your using flex duct from the gate to the machine.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Robogate??? I googled this and found zip for woodworking applications.

[David Duke]

Robogate??? I googled this and found zip for woodworking applications.

Think he was probably talking about the Ecogate. http://www.ecogate.com/

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Doug, I built this contraption for a blast gate on my saw that is kinda hard to get to, its just some 1/4" x 3/4" steel and a cheap air cylinder from ebay. The most expensive part was the air switch, about $20.

53174

53175

[Jim Becker]

Jay, that's a pretty kewel setup. 'Looks very similar to the pneumatic clamps that Kreg uses on their "super duper" pocket hole setups.

[john tomljenovic]

I do have the ecogate setup, but for opposite reasons. my connections are on the floor under the outfeed/assembly table. I have a manifold down there that feeds the tablesaw, router table and jointer.

anyway I am pretty happy with it. the bonus is the controller unit that runs the gates doubles as the contactor for the dust collecter. and has remote capabillities (mine is just a pull chain in the middle of the shop) to start the unit up for the other manual gates. there are a few things that annoy me though.

the 4 inch gates are built kinda of on the cheap side. all plasticey and such. thier larger gates are metal and appear rugged. but the chinzy gates so far have held up to my abuse.

the vibration sensors originally supplied with the system "package" are useless. they sense when a machine is on by vibration from the motor and whatnot to trigger the apropiate gate. only they don't always do that and are slow to respond when the do. I hate them. the company provides a proper tordoil coil that senses current used by the motor and I plan on updating to that very soon. I wish ecogate would offer tordoils in thier starter package but they don't. so expect to spend an additional $150 for the system to work as expected.

despite that I would still buy it again. I don't know how I would do it otherwise.

[Doug Shepard]

Thanks folks. Yup - I did mean Ecogate. Sorry. Not sure how I managed to mangle that into Robogate. I looked at their stuff briefly and think that all (??) their setups are the automatic type that switch the right gate open depending on which machine you turn on. Since I'm dealing with a mobile base shop and wont have dedicated power hookups to each machine, that system didn't seem very practical - or at least economical since I wouldn't be using the majority of it's features.

Haven't totally decided on metal vs PVC ducting but will be using 6" at least in the rafters and probably below the rafters for a couple drops as well. The portions below the rafters will need to be removable with quick connects of some sort and I'll try to use duct drops rather than all flex hose drops as much as I can. Here's the vague plans I'm currently toying with:
One branch to the far side of the shop to the drill press with a 4" drop from the rafters down.
One branch to the middle of the shop where the 12" disc/6x48" sander combo usually resides - probably 4" from the rafters down as well.
Two drops (probably 6" from rafters down) on the side of the shop that has tools wheeled into it while working. The 2 machine hookup could be any combination of PM66, MM16, Performax 16-32, Router Table, 6" Jointer, or Benchtop Planer. On the odd occasion where hooking up 3 machines at once would be more convenient I can always use a Y on one of the below-rafter portions with manual blastgates to make the switch.

Keeping the duct runs as high as possible in the rafters until the last minute is high on my priority list. I know that makes regular gates unreachable and drives my costs up, but I need to share the space with other things stored in the rafters. I'm was thinking that the best place for the remote gates to go is shortly after the Y-splits? Or can I get away with manual gates at the drop ends near the machines? Am I going to lose CFM if I have suction going through the full length of all 4 braches (and only one of them open)? I'm going to take a closer looks at Jeff Makiels pdf file. The setup he had on the other SMC thread looked pretty interesting. Not sure how much time I want to devote to a DIY vs. off-the-shelf solution though.
Thought I'd focus on the gate questions first as I think that's going to dictate some of my ducting decisions later.

[Jim O'Dell]

Doug, do you need the drops to come off to pull a vehicle in? I did this in my shop because I want to pull my 3/4 ton van in in bad weather, and it won't fit in the regular garage...too tall. I incorporated the blast gate into a quick disconnect. The blast gate is after the elbow down, so I don't have the blastgate up in the rafters. (My main trunk is up above the rafters.)
Bill Pentz says to use metal ducting if it will be hidden up above the ceiling, for fire safety sake. I built a tunnel open at the bottom for mine since I already had the PVC on hand. I have the two halves of the blast gate held together by bolts and T-nuts that when taken out, the blast gate separates, I take the sliding part out, and the whole down tube is on rollers to move out of the way. I can still reach the blast gate to operate it in normal mode with out even tip toeing to reach. The set up wil be harder to undo at the TS! The flex hose I have is a very tight fit on the S&D PVC. Jim

[Mitchell Andrus]

Ecogate - OK, that's what I've got. Five or six years. I'm with John T. on this setup - it's just barely a dependable tool. I've got close to $2,000.00 into mine (8 gates, toroids on everything 'cause the vibration sensors are hit/miss, 220V relay for a 5hp collector... ka-ching)

It always knows when a gate needs to open, sometimes misses when to close one so I'm turning the whole she-bang on and off to reset. They really should have built a reset button into the controls.

I'd mount all of your gates someplace accessible whether manual or automatic. They can get stuck, and you'll want to visually check to see what's open/closed.

[Jim Becker]

Am I going to lose CFM if I have suction going through the full length of all 4 braches (and only one of them open)?

Doug..."suction" isn't what dust collection is about. It's about moving air. A closed drop has no air flow in it and isn't all that material to another drop that may be in use. (Minor exceptions including insuring that branching doesn't create a "sink hole" for material...keeping branches horizontal when possible helps with that, for example, and when you have leaky branches that bring air from where it's not helping to move dust and chips) For that reason, most folks put the gates where they are most easily or practically accessible. Keep in mind that if you use the automatic gates and they are located "up there", any issues you have will require you to be in two places to troubleshoot. I still feel you will be better served by putting your gates below the ceiling where they are reachable, even with a small stool, and even if they are mechanized.

[David Duke]

Ecogate - OK, that's what I've got. Five or six years. I'm with John T. on this setup - it's just barely a dependable tool.

Doug, don't want to steal your thread just trying to possibly help the others with the Ecogate system. When I first put my system in, all metal duct work with short flex from the gate to machine I was have a little trouble with the gates not wanting to open/close. I was and still am using the vibration sensors. I solved the opening problem by placing the sensors directly on the motor and adjusting the sensitivity level on the "green box". Come to find out the two machines I was having trouble closing I had somehow lost my ground connection from the D/C to machine, I corrected this and haven't had any problems since.

[Mitchell Andrus]

When I first had problems with machine detection, I was advised by the good folks at Ecogate to try running the low voltage in coax cable. This helped somewhat. It's all running on 'radio' signals. A pulse is sent and returned - very prone to disturbances from outside sources.

Pretty fragile way to design something, if you ask me, but it's better than opening and closing gates by hand. I counted 60 times in one long day.

[Todd Crow]

Doug,

I built these blast gates for my dust collection system. They are operated by a 120V air solenoid that I hooked up to the switch of the machines. I used some cheap electric plugs to connect the machines to the gate electric system, so I can disconnect them easily. You could just hook a switch on the wall if you didn't want to connect them to the machines.

Automatic Gate (http://www.crowsnest.us/images/blast_gate2.jpg)

I made a pdf file that has instructions on building the gates. It is available here:

http://www.crowsnest.us/woodshop/woodworking_projects/woodshop_projects.htm

Todd

[Steven DeMars]

Any reason everyone locates the gates near or attached to the machines. Would they work if all your blast gates were together near the dust collector in a row like a manifold ?

Just thinking . . . .

Steve

[John Bush]

I've had good luck with the Ecogate system so far and would recommend it as an expensive convenience. I automated all my gates that are a bit out of reach and it really makes the milling process much more enjoyable. I had to replace two of the small motors but the CS was excellent and the system has been flawless since. Good luck, and happy Holidays!!! JCB.

[David Duke]

Any reason everyone locates the gates near or attached to the machines. Would they work if all your blast gates were together near the dust collector in a row like a manifold ?

Just thinking . . . .

Steve

Steve, if they were set up as a manifold an individual line would have to ran to each machine instead of running a main trunk line and branching off. This would get expensive if you have very far to run.

[Jim O'Dell]

Plus a big manifold would probably be ineffecient, robbing you of some CFM. I see some people use a big box with 5 pipes in from machines, and 1 pipe out to the collector. If you've got enough power to spare, it would be fine. But why give that away? Jim.

[Robert Mahon]

Todd,
Where in S. A. were you?
For what reason?

[Doug Shepard]

OK - Jim & Jim (and anyone else that questioned my sanity). It's starting to sink in that I need to reconsider where to locate the blastgates.


Doug, do you need the drops to come off to pull a vehicle in? I did this in my shop because I want to pull my 3/4 ton van in in bad weather, and it won't fit in the regular garage...too tall. I incorporated the blast gate into a quick disconnect. The blast gate is after the elbow down, so I don't have the blastgate up in the rafters. (My main trunk is up above the rafters.)
Bill Pentz says to use metal ducting if it will be hidden up above the ceiling, for fire safety sake. I built a tunnel open at the bottom for mine since I already had the PVC on hand. I have the two halves of the blast gate held together by bolts and T-nuts that when taken out, the blast gate separates, I take the sliding part out, and the whole down tube is on rollers to move out of the way. I can still reach the blast gate to operate it in normal mode with out even tip toeing to reach. The set up wil be harder to undo at the TS! The flex hose I have is a very tight fit on the S&D PVC. Jim

Yep - Need to park a vehicle in the shop. No ceiling here though - it's open rafters, but I'm leaning toward metal anyway. If so, I'm probably going to go with the Nordfab stuff just for the drops and quick connects but less pricey stuff for the main lines. Still haven't ruled out going with PVC though. Got any pics or a link to pics showing the Down-Tube-On-Rollers and the gate setup? This sounds like something I might want to investigate.

Assuming for a moment I still decide to go with remote (but relocated) gates, is Ecogate the only ones that make 6" remote gates? I spent some time Googling yesterday and the only Non-Ecogate remotes I found were all 4". Couldn't find any 6" except for the Ecogate units, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough yet. And if Ecogates are the only 6" ones, can you use their gates with other controllers? Just trying to explore all the options.

Icidently - I posted more ClearVue album pics of the install starting with the last pic on the 3rd page here: http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/Dougs-Mini-CV1400?page=3
Everything inside the DC closet in now DONE:) except for what needs to be done to hook up ducting and possibly electric for blastgate controller wiring. Followed Mr. O'Dell's lead and decided to suspend the bin lid for bin emptying.

[Jim O'Dell]

Thers are a couple pictures here, though not very detailed. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=14427&page=3&highlight=coolmeadow
Post 69 picture 4 shows the blast gate hanging, but no tube on the down side. The top half of the gate has eye bolts screwed partially into a T-nut that is recessed into the bottom side of that top half. The bottom half of the gate just has holes in it, and they also thread up into the same T-nut. I used barrel adjusters ( I think that's what they're called) to hang the gate from the rafters.
Post 83 , last picture, shows a very dark picture of the TS down tube. You might be able to make out the cradle with the 2 wheels on it going toward the backside of theTS. The horizontal duct at the floor is strapped to the cradle with 2 bungee cords. I can tilt the tube back toward me which engages the rollers on the floor, and wheel it where I need to go. Kind of the opposite of the Mini Max johnson bar set up. It works pretty good. If you need better pictures, let me know. It might be Tues evening before I can take them...On the way to Oklahoma here in a few minutes.
If you are going to leave the ceilings open, PVC will be fine. If you use metal, be sure to use gloves when assembling. I used metal for my exhaust. One adjustable elbow and one wye, and I cut my hands up a LOT. Made me glad I used PVC on the rest of it!
Let me know If I can take some better pictures for you! Jim.

[Doug Shepard]

OK - I'm officially confused again. A trip to Bill Pentz' site found the following, which makes me think my original idea of putting the gates up by the Y's was what I should do ??
You close the airflow to a machine with a blast gate. There are many different types of blast gates including many that can be opened automatically through electric motors, air pressure, and even hydraulics. The best place to put your blast gates is next to the wyes off your main line up high. The more open pipe or hose you leave exposed between the main run and the blast gate, the more resistance it causes. Also, if that pipe fills too much, opening the gate will cause all that material in the down drop to slam into the impeller potentially ruining motor bearings and even breaking impellers. It then goes into the filters potentially poking holes and greatly reducing filter life by requiring far more cleanings.
From http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Ducting.cfm#DuctingComponents

[Todd Crow]

Robert,

I was stationed outside of Riyadh when I was in the Air Force for four months.

Todd


Todd,
Where in S. A. were you?
For what reason?

[Travis Porter]

What size/type collector do you have?

You could make the gates stick right below the ceiling and use a stick/rod to open and close it.

[Ted Christiansen]

Doug,

This blast gate design might work for you since it uses strings to open and close. Note: this isn't my design, I found it on the Internet in May 2005. I should have saved the URL of the site, but only saved the image URL. When I make the switch from 4" flexible hose to 6" S&D PVC I plan to use this gate design.

Ted

[Jim O'Dell]

Ted, I like it! Nice and simple, yet effective and easy to use! Jim.

[Fred Voorhees]

Doug, I built mine from plans from SMC member Terry Hatfield and I swear by them. That is, of course, if you can get your gates below cieling level. I tried to get over to Terry's website, but it looks as if it is down. You may try to get a hold of him to see if you can get the specs on them. Very easy and inexpensive to build and very effective.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Ted,
That's very clever. The only downside is that the damper must be in the overhead versus along the wall. However, I'm sure one can figure something out for a wall application also.
-Jeff :)

[Doug Shepard]

Doug,

This blast gate design might work for you since it uses strings to open and close.

Ted

That looks pretty promising. Is there supposed to be text in that file too? I dont have Word on my home PC so WordPad is opening the file. All I get is the pic in the file. I could probably work out the details from the pic, but instructions wouldn't hurt either.

[Ted Christiansen]

Doug,

Sorry, I dont have any more details. It isn't my design, I found it on the Internet in May 2005 and saved in a Powerpoint file for future use. When I switch from flexible 4" hose to 6" S&D PVC I plan to use this gate design.

Ted