Brush on Deft lacquer vs spray lacquer???

[Paul Engle]

John's post brings up the question to me is the brush on deft vs spray lacquer any different? Have never used either but hear tell the lacquer supposed to put " on " the shine. What kind of brush would one use to get the best finish, and how many coats to get there, sand in between with what grit and would one buff with or with out polish / caranuba or bees or say Minwax finish wax? phew that took for ever.....:eek:

[Dennis Peacock]

Paul,

Even though Deft "says" it's a brushing lacquer? Don't do it. It's really a "spraying" lacquer. I've tried and I've put down at least 10 gallons of lacquer in the recent 2 years. If you want a brushing lacquer you'll need to thin it AND add retarder. The key is to ALWAYS keep a wet edge on subsequent brush passes and you should NEVER back brush with lacquer. It dries so fast....Brushing on lacquer require "flowing it on" which means heavily loading your brush and moving it fairly slow to prevent air bubbles getting in the finish (like in polyurethane).

In short? You can brush it...it just needs to be thinned and add in the retarder to help keep it wet long enough. It's all about "chemistry" and just the "right mix". :)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Paul I started using Deft brushing lacquer on my turnings a month or so ago with good results. I bought an all purpose, natural hair brush (cheapest one) at the local HD. I took a jelly jar with a screw-on lid and punched a hole through the lid. I sized the hole to fit the handle of the brush. I poured Deft brushing lacquer in the jar. I friction the lacquer on....I cover the bed of my lathe with a paper towel....brush on the lacquer at a low speed and then turn the speed up to the fastest for about a minute or so. Then I friction it in with a paper towel. On pens and bottle stoppers I've been frictioning in 3 or 4 coats. I've been very pleased with the results.

I know a lot of Creeker turners spray lacquer too!

[Dennis Peacock]

Oh...forgot what forum section I was in. Lacquer and turning.....yea....that's the right section. Yea....but you still need to keep a wet edge when brushing on the lathe as well. :o :)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Paul........I've had to add thinner occasionally to the Deft in the jar. I don't sand between coats but the frictioning smooths out any ridges in the finish. The heat caused by the frictioning cause the lacquer to dry quite quickly. I follow it immediately with a Beal buffing.

I just did a cocobolo pen yesterday that the finish is stunning.

[Earl Reid]

I have been using Deft for about 50 yrs, amost all of it in the spray cans. I had very poor results with trying to brush it on. I have aways had a fairly small workshop and using the spray cans is handy for me. I've must used over 1000 cans over years.

Earl

[David Walser]

but I'm going to. Lacquer is a very forgiving finish. It is self-leveling, which means that brush marks should automatically disapear IF you put on a heavy enough coat. The balance you try to achieve is heavy enough to level without being so heavy that it runs. On flat work, that's not a hard balance to achieve. On turnings, it can be. I used to work in the finish department of a furniture mill and sprayed and brushed a lot of lacquer. Our rule of thumb was to put on several light coats if we were spraying. (With a spray gun it's too easy to pool the finish if you don't put on a light coat.) When brushing, we put on a much heavier coat.

On turnings, my usual practice is to put it on heavy with a brush and then wipe of the "excess" to avoid any runs. That's not because of the nature of the finish but because of the shape of the peice. If it were flat a heavy coat would work just fine.

[Paul Engle]

Ok thanks guys, I ordered hog hair brush and will try both ways... spray and brush with retarded and thinner. I have frictioned on tung and wipe poly before and like its results, so I understand that process. Just waiting for it to dry was making me impatient. :eek:

[John Hart]

There's another quality to spraying lacquer, other than the obvious aromatic and hallucinogenic properties....


....ummm.....sorry...I forgot what I was going to say.:o



....oh yeah....time between coats. Sure, it takes 3 or 4 coats of the stuff, before you have a glass-like finish....but those 3 or 4 coats are done in 2 hours. I like to hit the peice with coarse steel wool between coats too. The light coat....to me....is imperative to prevent sagging, and gives added depth.

[Karl Card]

I also do not understand why you would need to sand between coats with lacquer. With each new coat it actually blends in with the previous coat as to still form one thicker coat.

i am speaking for the oil based lacquer. I have not used the water based deft lacquer yet.

[John Hart]

Karl...that's a very good question. I think I have an answer, but I'm open to debate.

It is true that lacquer has the great capacity to blend with the previous coat, but it also seemed to me, that if I was uneven in my coating...even to a small degree, then the later coats would cause excessive weight in certain spots and tend to sag. Then I would end up having to start all over.

When a light buffing with steel wool, I was able to acheive the evenness I needed, and it would also dull the finish so I could see better where the unevenness was.

Since 2006 when that was written, I admit that I don't feel the need to brush it up as often as I used to. So maybe I'm just getting better at my distribution.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I also do not understand why you would need to sand between coats with lacquer. With each new coat it actually blends in with the previous coat as to still form one thicker coat. "

It's true that lacquer, being essentially it's own solvent, will "cut into" the previous coat. But if that previous coat is not smooth, neither will the next one be. When applying a buildup of light coats, the first couple will "fuzz up" due to the very slight grain raising effect and the fact that these coats stiffen the wood fibers. These fibers need to be "cut off" and sanding is the way to accomplish that. After you have built up a very smooth surface, you may get away with less or no sanding but you are pretty much counting on these coats flowing out perfectly with absolutely no dust, however fine it may be, settling into the wet finish. Unless you are shooting lacquer in a climate controlled "clean room", this is very unlikely to be the case. So even the final coats need to be at least rubbed out if you want the best possible finish.

Class dismissed....

[John Keeton]

And, my guess is that Double D has used a ton of lacquer!!!

I have been playing with a lot of different finishes since starting this turning thing. Most of my turnings are domestic wood species, except for the finials and stems on some. And, for the most part, I start with BLO and shellac as I like the warmth. The shellac also does on well, and I can get rid of those fuzzies David mentioned. It seems to make a good base for the lacquer. Doing that, I have found I can lay down 4-5 coats of brush on, sand it level with 400, then 600, buff with 0000, and then spray on a few coats to get a little more build. Sand again with 600, and triple buff. I get a nice flat and smooth finish with that approach.

But, keep in mind that my experience consists of about 6 months!:eek: Never touched lacquer in the flat work I did.

[Barry Elder]

May I suggest going to Wood Central and scroll down to Russ's Corner and read all his info on using lacquer, brush-on and spray can. A wealth of information!

[Allen Neighbors]

I started spraying lacquer in about 1980 or 90, I think. It is true, that Lacquer melts Lacquer. That means that when you spray a coat of lacquer on a piece that has previously been sprayed, it will melt into the previous coating. Now, I'm talking about spraying a coat over a piece that was previously sprayed within the last couple of hours or so... it will work on a piece that was sprayed last night, even, but if the lacquer has had several days, or years, to cure, you need to light sand it first, to give the lacquer some better "tooth", to cling to, because it doesn't melt in quite as much.
A friend of mine, who had been in the business of furniture repair for about 40 or so years, taught me a lot of the little idiosyncrasies of Lacquer... like how much Retarder and thinner to use, and never having to clean my spray gun. :D
Water-white, Pre-catalyzed, High Gloss, Nitrocellulose Lacquer is the best that I've ever used. Bar none.
That said, I've never tried the Deft Brush-on. It could just be the cat's meow. When my source quit selling what I wanted, I went elsewhere.... the word "Brush" just scared me off. :eek:

[Mark Levitski]

In my quest for the best overall finish for my turnings, which include bowls and hollow forms mostly, and for what works best for art shows (read rain) and especially what sells best, I have temporarily arrived at wiping varnish. I have recently liked the Waterlox Original the best. I will not monkey with lacquer anymore. Waterlox gives me both the protection and the grain/figure enhancements, as well as the flexibility for building the gloss. I actually find that one coat wiped (yes, I said wiped--it's a really simple finish to apply) is enough for close to an "in the wood" finish (sells better for me) with more protection. I've had too many errant raindrops make extra work for me with some other concoctions. On another note, I've switched any wax I use to Rennaisance for similar reasons. With the Waterlox I might not even need to apply any wax, although I still buff after the finish has cured. Wow, it's really working well for me.

[John Keeton]

Mark, I have never used Waterlox, though it gets rave reviews in the flat world. It does, however, have a short shelf life. I don't know how much production you have, but does that ever present a problem for you? And, how do you deal with that?

[Mark Levitski]

Yes, John, the shelf life requires some management. But it isn't as bad as I have read about. It solidifies quickly if you put some in a smaller container, but the rest of the can takes a lot longer. Some suggest the Bloxygen or collapsible containers or even marbles added as you take the liquid out. Haven't needed to do any of that yet.

Between my wife's rustic branch and twig furniture and my turnings we are needing to produce a lot and have been gravitating to using Waterlox as the go-to finish. We like an in the wood finish and dislike the plastic, heavily-glossed look (so do our customers). Since only one-coat of the original Waterlox is plenty to accomplish this, we don't go through a lot of it. Because it is an easy wipe on and offers good protection from the dreaded watermarks at shows, and because it leaves a finish that we like, I am for now enamoured of it until a better thing comes along.

By the way, we deal with a gummy, hardened Waterlox can by tossing it and opening a new one. One of the "consumables" like sandpaper and such that get factored into the price of our work.

[Karl Card]

Concerning my comment earlier in the thread about sanding lacquer, I should have been more thorough.

What I was getting at is that say you are doing a pen or small turning.
I actually do not use a brush, I dip my finished turnings into the lacquer.
Let them dry for 2 hours and dip again. I usually do this 3 or 4 times just depending on how the piece is looking etc.

After it cures I use steel wool on it to get it perfect and then us a little triple EEE and it comes out silky smooth and clear as glass...

But I will say this, I have found out the weather conditions have to be good to before it will cure properly and harden. I am also still going to change to precat laq as soon as the funds are right to get a descent spray gun and get filter/vent setup to run fumes outside.

[Cody Armstrong]

I know this thread is ancient but thought I'd post the question here.

I've got a project that I'm finishing with Deft brush on semi-gloss. I'd prefer a satin finish rather then a gloss. Since I live in the "Bermuda Triangle":rolleyes: Satin finish in brush on Deft is not carried by a store close to me.
Is it ok to spray the final coat/s with the satin finish Deft from a spray can? On parts of the project there are three coats of brush on applied already.
I assume the spray would be fine over the brushed but not sure about the semi-gloss/satin.

[Fred Belknap]

Cody I'm no expert but I think you will be ok putting the spray can lacquer over brush on. You will probably have to do some sanding to get a smooth finish or at least steel wool. I have been experimenting with a chepo spray gun and it seems to work better than a spray can. I get a finish that looks and feels like an orange peel with the rattle can. I am experimenting using automotive clear coat on some bowls and it seems to do a great job and levels out nice even with my rustic set up, like doors open fans going. The automotive clear coat is crystal clear and has low oder. At $26 quart it is kind of expensive. I have thinned brush on lacquer with acetone and it looks good to. Around here about the only kind of lacquer you can get is brush on and rattle can. I get the clear coat at auto supply store but have found that Tractor Supply has it a lot cheaper. Will have to check that out.

[Richard Coers]

Brush on Deft already has the retarder in it. Don't know about their rattle can.

[robert baccus]

Started spraying lacquer in 1957 on cars and wood. First a thought---The comment about precat lacquer--easily the best I've tried. Goes on straight up, no thinning(maybe retarder in high humidity) and it is clear--no yellow.. One coat is equal to 5-6 coats of nitro. or rattlecan. 2 coats will be plenty for wetsanding/compounding/wax. Waterbased lacquer is a play on words--it isn't even close. Oil under lac. is fine for popping the color. Heavy bodied sanding sealer is made for undercoating lac.---seals and acts as a filler for pores and sands like chalk. Saves 4-5 coats of shellac or lacquer to fill pores. Shellac has been made obsolete by good sanding sealers for lacquer work. A rattle can of retarder, SS, and lacquer in the shop is great for repairs. Retarder is necessary for any serious lacquer work for preventing fogging and helping flowout. Deft and other bigbox store brands are only so-so quality. Mowhawk and Behlen are great brands as are others. Mowhawk makes the only good thick SS I can find and I have tried many brands.. Also precatalyzed lacquer keeps crosslinking (much like epoxy) after drying for days and produces a superhard finish. It is actually hard to wetsand after several days drying. Best thing about a gun is being able adjust the mix for conditions. Using nitrocellse lac. it usually takes only 1 wetsanding between start and finish spraying to knock back orangepeel. Wet sanding with slightly soapy water and a 200-400 grit sponge will flatten the laquer quickly. Then maybe compound/wax ect. Enough about lac.--been doing it all day. Being lazy I do 95% of my spraying, sanding, compounding and waxing on the lathe. This seems to prevent runs to a degree. Hope this helps some.

[robert baccus]

OBTW--overspraying with semigloss if they are both lacquers is fine. A fine scotchbrite pad and wax probably looks better and easier. For anyone using a gun Behlen sells flattner by the quart so you can adjust the gloss to your liking by mixing into your lacquer.

[Cody Armstrong]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'll definitely do a test piece first. Just wanted some opinions. When the project is finished I'll post some pics in the Woodworking Projects section. :)