Why not vintage jointers??? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Adam Grills

12-19-2006, 8:33 AM

Matt Moore

12-19-2006, 8:49 AM

If you do a search on "aircraft carriers" you will probably find many threads on these. Woodnet will have some threads as well. The design really has not changed for a jointer in a long time so buying new probably won't get you much "improvement". It will empty your bank quicker though. There is no dought that the per pound or per inch price will be better on the older machines.

IMHO I would not hesitate to get one. Besides, my son needs a huge runway for his toy planes.

Jim Becker

12-19-2006, 8:51 AM

Why not? There are a surprising number of 'Creekers who have vintage iron in their shops. I came close to a 12" Northfield coming out of the local community college, but the original buyer finally picked it up. (I ended up with a Euro J/P combo) Big jointers are a joy to own, so if you have the space (it sounds like you do) and the time to get it set up...go for it. Do seek advice from others about specific models, etc., so you know if you need to deal with things like Babbet bearings, etc.

Rob Will

12-19-2006, 8:57 AM

I recently purchased a 24" American Jointer. Although this particular machine is from the 1920's, it still works fine. The only real problem you have is if you need parts. Not exactly on the shelf.

Rob

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=42724

Adam Grills

12-19-2006, 9:02 AM

I know this will vary but what should I expect to pay for one?
Adam

John Bailey

12-19-2006, 9:13 AM

Adam,

You should check out the OWWM website. It will be a wealth of info, and they probably have some for sale in their classifieds.

John

Rob Will

12-19-2006, 9:15 AM

I know this will vary but what should I expect to pay for one?
Adam

I got really lucky and found one cheap (under $2K). Woodweb machinery exchange and ExFactory are where I usually look at machines. Some are on e-bay but I don't like the auction format as well. Keep an eye on pattern shops that are closing and school auctions.

Rob

Larry Fox

12-19-2006, 9:25 AM

Check out auction number 330063536256 (in completed listings) on Flea-bay. This one has been listed a few times and my inability to deal with 3-phase combined with my being too lazy to investigate/do the changeover are the only reasons this is not in my shop.

There is always 300061951755 if you are willing to do some refurb on a 12" one.

Steven Wilson

12-19-2006, 9:27 AM

Have a good gander at the OWWM site. There are some things that you'll want to look at and some "features" that you'll probably want to avoid. Unless you presently have the skill or are interested in learning I would avoid babbit bearings. I would also avoid square head jointers (like to eat hands). If the machine you're considering does not have a blade guard you may need to fabricate one (your insurance may require it). Of course, if you have the interest and skill and are willing to replace bearings and cutter heads then some of the old jointers would be great to have in a modern shop. If you're not interested in a restore and want something that's ready to go then a jointer of a more modern vintage would be more appropriate.

Pete Bradley

12-19-2006, 9:31 AM

Ex-Factory is an interesting place to look, but my humble opinion is that for older machines at least, about 1/2 of their price would be closer to the street price of a given machine.

Pete

Jim O'Dell

12-19-2006, 10:22 AM

I got lucky a couple weeks back, :rolleyes: one of our Irish Setter adoptors also fosters for us with over flow, and Bob also woodworks. He got a 6" jointer from a friend at work. Wasn't sure of the name, but started with an S. Was the friend's father's unit, and had been sitting for years after the father passed away. He gave me my choice between this unit and a 70's era Craftsman 6" jointer. I think I'm going to take the old one. He's already put new bearings in it, but had to take the blades from the Sears unit and grind down to fit as they were slightly too long. Old is good! Free is gooder!! :D :D Jim.

lou sansone

12-19-2006, 12:22 PM

I have a Newman 60 as does bill s. they are great machines from the 40's. the porter 300 is also an excellent jointer. there are a couple of different Oliver jointers worth having, Alan turner has one, and then there are the Northfield units. All of them are great machines. I personally don't like Babbitt for jointers, but for wood lathes they are fine.

Good jointers are going to run between 2 and 4 grand. you may find one for less, but I doubt it. most folks know what they are worth ( oliver and Northfield are going to be the most expensive, the oliver because it has a cult following and the Northfield because they are still in business ) . you can find old square 2 knife units from the 20's but for me, they are too old.

Here is my aircraft carrier

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18645

enjoy
Lou

Steve Jenkins

12-19-2006, 1:54 PM

Watch your local paper for auctions too. I have a 16" Oliver that was made in '49. Super machine. I picked up a 12" jointer, that was made in the 20's near as I can tell, at an auction for 75 bucks. ran great. Sold it for a good profit.

Phil Pritchard

12-19-2006, 2:54 PM

I would also avoid square head jointers (like to eat hands). If the machine you're considering does not have a blade guard you may need to fabricate one (your insurance may require it).
I'd second that, but I'd add this - modern machines run with much less of a gap between the cutter block and the table which in turn makes them safer. Many have "toothed" or serrated edges to the tables which make the machines considerably quieter. Modern (post 1970) industrials generally come with parallelogram rise and fall to the tables - which means consistent table/cutter gap - less liklihood of kickbacks. Modern machines (post 1980) generally have half decent extraction facilities (worth having IMHO). But by far the best thing about modern machines is that they generally have thin wedge-clamped cutters (which can never be thrown out) which are easier/quicker to install and set-up, are generally readily available in carbide-tipped if necessary (and at a fraction of the cost of the old "plate" cutters but best of all is that many European/Japanese style machines have a 3- or 4-cutter block which gives a much better quality of cut at the same feed speeds as older 2-cutter designs.

JayStPeter

12-19-2006, 3:02 PM

I restored/rebuilt an older 6" jointer. IMO, that size is not cost effective based on prices of new ones. With the Yorkcraft 12" under $2K and the new Grizzly 12" coming in at $1500, an older jointer would have to be a good deal (like Steves) for me to consider going that route. If you don't have machine tools and are good at that kind of work, there are some things on older machines that you will have to pay to have done. That could offset any cost savings you'd hoped for. It's amazing how much it costs just to get pulleys and handwheels. That said, it's something I would consider if the right deal fell into my lap. I would know better what to look for this time around before committing my time and money. Make sure you would wind up with something better or significantly cheaper than new.

Ken Lousignont

12-19-2006, 3:11 PM

Hello,
I have a small custom woodworking shop up in Ontario, Canada. I am looking to increase the 6" jointer with something larger 12" or 16". The price of new large machines is rediculus and even newer used. Out of my price range anyway. I have been looking at vintage jointers- very large/ heavy and ugly ducking looking but I have the space and won't be moving it around. I am looking for opinions on why not outfit my shop with one of these big dinosaurs? They are a fraction of the cost. Based on their large tables and weight, they should be easy to use and accurate once set up. Won't they? Any advise is welcome.
Adam

Have you looked at the 12" Shop Fox W1744 jointer? It's a 3hp (220v/1 phase), 850+ lbs behemoth, with a parallelogram infeed table. *Very* similar to the Delta DJ-30. Amazingly, with a little googling you can find several places selling this thing for $1650-$1700. There's one place asking $1669 with $50 shipping! This has to be best bargain out there. Not to mention, there's also an 8" Shop Fox parallelogram jointer available (with the same 3hp motor!!) for about $700-$750 (again, suspiciously similar to the Delta DJ-20). Clearly, these have to be best bargains in jointers out there! Definitely worth a look. Plus, did I mention they have a 2 year warranty? Nope, not affiliated with Shop Fox, I just enjoy bargains just like everybody else :)

Carlo Petrilli

12-19-2006, 3:39 PM

This one is on the Sawmill Creek classified section, I don't know if it has been sold yet:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=42709&highlight=jointer

Jesse Thornton

12-19-2006, 4:23 PM

Kirk Poore

12-19-2006, 5:21 PM

I have an old delta rockwell 6" jointer, and as happy as I was when I first got it, my needs have definately outgrown it. The outfeed bed slopes down ever so slightly away from the infeed bed, which can be a royal PITA, and as far as I can tell there isn't any simple way to adjust the tables to fix this. The motor bogs right down when face jointing anything like maple, and the fence is tricky to set at 90 deg because it tries to shift as the handle is tightened.
Just my experience with one machine, but I thought I'd throw that in there. I'm definately going to buy new next round.

Jesse:

There may be a couple of ways to address your outfeed bed slope. First, check to see if you have sawdust in the dovetailed ways on the outfeed side of your jointer. Over the years, you may have got some impacted in there, raising the end near the cutterhead. This will required dismantling that part of the jointer.

If the ways are clean, you may have to shim the ways to tilt the end of the table up. I've heard of people using thin brass sheet or even busted off feeler gauges for this.

Kirk

Reg Mitchell

12-19-2006, 5:38 PM

Adam,
I wil lhaev a Northfield for sale soon. It is great shape and will need no work to get you going. i HAVE A 12" Porter. Each diff joiner has its drawbacks or something that is very good or something someone don't like. For me the three toed joiners are the easyest to level. There are a few reasons I chose the Porter but thats anothe story.
But here is my Joiner
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/male_man/myrtelwoodtbltop114.jpg
now you can get one of the chi-com cheap joiners but It knocks another person out of a job. But the old stuff is built better and will out last you or your shop AND can be had at a better price
Reg

Adam Grills

12-19-2006, 7:06 PM

Reg,
Thank you for the picture. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. I took a peek at Ex-Factory and my eyes popped out:eek: Not at the machines but the prices. Do people really pay that much? It reminded me of going to a local show and shine and then driving into RM classic cars in the family van. ie. Do people really pay 70, 000 for a Dodge Challenger?- I paid $3500 for mine. Sorry just an analogy.

As I am researching I have found that concencus is square cutter heads have to be replaced with round. I don't feel that safety is an option. There is no fun in having a hobby that you can't do with out your hands/ arm/ face. I have had difficulty finding a picture of a square cutter head. Been to OWWM . Do you know where I can find one?
Adam

Kermit Hodges

12-19-2006, 7:17 PM

Picture a square block of steel with a blade clamped onto the corner that is basically a square head. I am negotiating on one right now with a square head and babbit bearings. I also have a line on a round head to go with is but it will require converting to roller bearings and I am not to crazy about modifying a turn of the century machine.

I am going to get mine in the shop, it needs a total restoration btw. Then make my choice as to what I am going to do. These old machines didn't have guards and I may just add one and run it as is. The big thing is that from what I read, square head blades have to be custom made and can run several hundred for a set of four.

Scot wolf

12-19-2006, 7:59 PM

Just checked out the Exfactory site. Do they actually sell anything at those prices????

Reg Mitchell

12-19-2006, 8:39 PM

the square heads are not to my likeing, but there are those that do like them. I payed nooooooo where near what you sill find on that site. I get lots of sites I look at for my tools. My bands saw for example I only paid 1/4 to 1/5 of what they sell for on that site.
its a monster and there are those that pay hundreds more for it.
it just takes a little patients and if you are willing to do some work on it. I am a machinest and have metal working tools also so it is not much of a probles bor me to fab. some things for tools, altho I am limited to size and if it is a casting I have to do something else.
My shop tools cost way less than a new tools and I have much better quality.
I almost stole this......
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/male_man/myrtelwoodtbltop118.jpg
Reg

Ben Grunow

12-19-2006, 8:57 PM

Great bandsaw Reg but you've got your dust gorilla upside down.

Reg Mitchell

12-19-2006, 9:35 PM

Great bandsaw Reg but you've got your dust gorilla upside down.
mmmmmm...think I was reading the instructions upside down maybe????:eek:
Reg

Charles McKinley

12-19-2006, 10:02 PM

Hi Adam,

I have a 16" Cresent that I have about $900. in . It tips the scale at about 1300 pounds. It is an early 1900's machine. It has a 4 knife round cutter head. If you have any friends that are machinist or large equipment mechanics you can probably have them pour the babbit for you when it needs done. If you keep them oiled they should last for a long time.also put shims in when you pour them and you can remove the shims one layer at a time as the bearing wears rather than having to pour new bearing.

Adam Grills

12-19-2006, 10:25 PM

Reg,
Just gotta keep it light .... Gorilla's, aren't they black. eh! ya I am Canadian. I am going to look at the Cowan. Sounds like a good adventure. I am always up for a challenge. I really apprechiate everyones help on this. I am a handy and kowledgeable guy but it is nice to have other opinions. Thank you everyone. If you have any more advise please let me know before I buy the biggest boat anchor for a canoe you have ever seen.
Adam:)

Charles McKinley

12-19-2006, 11:39 PM

Hi Adam,

Woodweb has a great classified section and machine swap section. That is where I found my joiner.

Adam Grills

12-20-2006, 6:08 AM

Is it just me or are there jointers out there that are the same body but outfitted with a different length cutter head? Table size on these old machines seem to be the same just the head is fifferent. Any comment?

Rick Lizek

12-20-2006, 8:44 AM

Not sure exactly what you mean by "those prices" but having been in the used machine trade for many years they aren't that off. It depends on the part of the country you are in and if times are on the up swing or down swing. It's a cyclical thing with auctions and new shops being set up. Also American jointers were pretty pricey in general. Beleieve it or not machines, with the imports, are actually cheaper today than they were 30 years ago and there is a lot more available by far. A 16" Oliver jointer was going for over $11,000 dollars before they closed. Also exfactory is a brokerage outfit. They just tack on a percentage. They don't even see the machine. Also consider buying from a dealer. At least you get a warranty and some tech support. Buying used isn't for everyone. Buying used means having to be ready to deal with all possible options from having motors rewound, tables reground and unavailable parts fabricated. That super deal can cost more than a new machine for the rookie.

Steve Evans

12-20-2006, 9:17 AM

Adam

Sent you a pm.

Steve

Adam Grills

12-20-2006, 8:56 PM

Just bought the 16" Cowan & Co. sight unseen pending that what he told me is true. Just need to know how much this thing weighs so I can get the right trailer. I know it will kill my utility. I flipped the leafs with my table saw and drill press. Anyone have an close estimate?
Adam

Bill Simmeth

12-20-2006, 9:06 PM

Congratulations Adam, hope it works out for you. There's a picture of a 20" Cowan on the OWWM.com site ( http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=2490 ). If yours is similar to that I'm going to guess 1800 lbs. It looks similar to the Newman 60s that Lou and I have and that's about they weigh.

Good luck!

Adam Grills

12-21-2006, 8:33 AM

The 16" is different from the 20" inthe pic. The 16 is has the tables on the slant. Adam

Bill Simmeth

12-21-2006, 8:35 AM

The 16 is has the tables on the slant. Adam
Okay, even more so. The Newman 60 is also a wedge-bed design. Still about the same volume of cast iron.

Jim Becker

12-21-2006, 9:41 AM

Adam...PICTURES! ;)

Adam Grills

12-21-2006, 11:34 AM

I am planning to make the pickup trip this weekend. Don't worry I will have lots of pictures.
Adam

Adam Grills

12-25-2006, 9:59 AM

Hi guys,
I would like to thank all of you for your info it helped alot.
I went to see the jointer yesterday and after some dickering we loaded the big beast into the trailer. Turns out most of the info the man gave me over the phone was incorrect- he just had no idea what he was talking about.
Everthing was intact and in fair order, there is no guard the fence is there. The top is going to need some cleaning up. The cutter head needs some cleaning and a new set of knifes. All adjustments for the tables need to be cleaned. I am going for a full tear down and clean up. Got a nice older 3hp single phase 1740 rpm motor that must weigh 80lbs on its own. As far as weight- I know that everyone said it would be 1200 to 1700lbs. It is heavy! but I think its more like 700-800 lbs with out motor. It was lifted with a half ton chain hoist (hoist was close to being maxed out). I can lift one end of it an inch off the ground by myself. As far as style it was not a wedge table design- it looks identical to the 20" Cowan & Co. listed in the OWWM pictures. Beds are slightly different. I will take pictures and post them in the next week or so.
So its here in the trailer just need to figure out a way to get it off. May have a neighbour lift it off with his backhoe.
Thanks again to everyone

Jim Becker

12-25-2006, 10:13 AM

Congrats on your new jointer, Adam! I'm looking forward to your pictorial (hint...hint...) of the tear-down and rebuild!

Adam Grills

12-25-2006, 3:21 PM

I took Harry (short for Dirty Harry) appart today. Surprizingly all the bolts came out just like it was new. I first took out the knifes- look like they will be salvageable. After 2 1/2hrs I had the bad boy taken appart and put back together- minus the tables as I nam going to be cleaning up the parts under the table. My wife helped me lift off the tables, strong for 105lb woman. With careful thinking I got them main body off the trailer and into the shop by myself. Unfortunately my shop rafters won't do any lifting so I had to use my brain. Looks like not much and she will be up and running. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks.
Adam

Randy Carver

12-25-2006, 7:57 PM

Do make yourself a guard. I've seen pictures of one made from Corian, I think they were on owwm.org.

Congrats on the old 'arn!

John Shuk

12-25-2006, 8:50 PM

Congrats on the purchase Adam.
Sounds like my story all over again.
I bought an old Yates American 12" picked up with a trailer. There it sat until I caught my neighbor one day.
My neighbors backhoe did the trick.
Unfortunatly my jointer sits in my garage waiting for me to have the time to actually get it where it needs to be.

Adam Grills

01-03-2007, 8:37 PM

Well here it is... Somewhat put back together. Oh and a new D4R I got as a Christmas gift.
54211

54212

54213

54214

54215

Adam Grills

01-03-2007, 8:41 PM

I have to tell you moving this thing around by myself is a real chore. Thank god for some old pipe I had kicking around. Iam working on the tables over the next couple of days and will post pics when they are on the base.
Adam54217

54218

54219

54220

Jim Becker

01-03-2007, 9:02 PM

That's going to be a beauty, Adam!

Adam Grills

01-04-2007, 12:55 PM

54255
What do you think?

Jim Becker

01-04-2007, 1:17 PM

Well...I don't think it's going to blow away in the wind! Nice machine!

Mark Marzluf

01-04-2007, 5:19 PM

I found this one listed in the paper last year... Luckily, I was the first to reply. It was a mess with layers and layers of paint when I brought it home, but I managed to strip it all down and give it a new life.

Paid $400 for the jointer and have another $150 or so in restoration.

12" J.A. Fay and Egan. 3HP Century motor that draws 5 amps when up to speed.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL96/791874/1396915/154626140.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL96/791874/1396915/156424533.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL96/791874/1396915/155971008.jpg

Adam Grills

01-04-2007, 6:37 PM

Nice machine Mark and at the right price! I am taking the tables to be surface ground tomorrow. I should have tables back the start of next week. I am mounting the motor and pulleys this weekend. Hoping to have her cutting the end of next week. Just in time to do a birdseye maple harvest table.
Adam

Mark Marzluf

01-04-2007, 7:06 PM

How far off are the tables ?? They may not need ground. I thought my outfeed table sagged by .012, but it turns out I had it sprung. A little (proper) adjustment and it relaxed to within .003.

Just currious what you're finding...

Adam Grills

01-04-2007, 10:30 PM

Here is a picture of a level on the jointer table. I have found tha both the tables are crowned in the same way end to end and side to side. The tables are only sitting on the leveling wedges they have no pressure on them. The tables were covered in very rough epoxy when I bought it so I was unable to see this problem before purchase. Turns out that I have undesclosed source that will surface grind the tables on a CNC grinder somewhere between $100 and $150 depending on set up time. Adam54305

Rob Will

01-05-2007, 12:47 AM

I found this one listed in the paper last year... Luckily, I was the first to reply. It was a mess with layers and layers of paint when I brought it home, but I managed to strip it all down and give it a new life. Paid $400 for the jointer and have another $150 or so in restoration. 12" J.A. Fay and Egan. 3HP Century motor that draws 5 amps when up to speed.

Impressive machine Mark!
Did you fabricate the aluminum blade guard?
My old jointer is missing the guard.

Rob

Bill Simmeth

01-05-2007, 6:56 AM

Impressive machine Mark!
Did you fabricate the aluminum blade guard?

Rob - Looks like a stock F&E guard from here. I have one around here somewhere in one of the ratholes. If you want it, we could work something out, but it's for a 16" -- your jointer is 24", no?

Adam - Congrats on the Cowan. That's definitely a keeper!

Mark Marzluf

01-05-2007, 12:18 PM

Thanks Rob.... My guard is indeed the original.

When I got the jointer, it actually had the original leather coupling belt on the motor shaft as well. Course, after sitting for a number of years it lasted all of 10 min in my shop. I ordered a new leather belt to keep everything original.

Steven Wilson

01-05-2007, 4:54 PM

Adam, If your looking for a guard you might want to talk to Minimax or Martin. When I bought my CU350 from Minimax I went with an optional guard for the jointer that swings out of the way instead of a spring loaded head. It would mount very easily on your jointer (tap two screw holes in the side of the outfeed table).

Adam Grills

01-05-2007, 10:06 PM

Dropped off the jointer bed today. Here are a couple of picture of the machine that is going to be doing the work. Beds will be accurate to a thou when done. 54400

54401

Adam Grills

01-08-2007, 9:28 PM

Got my tables back tonight. Just unloaded them cleaned them of oil and checked for flatness. They are less than 5 thou out in width and less than 1 thou in length. I am very happy. Oh and my knifes are sharper than I have ever seen before. Here is a picture of the tables freashly cleaned!54701