group make/buy plane iron & wooden plane contest anyone?

[Steve Dewey]

Being very frustrated trying to flatten a couple old Stanley planes to get them in shape, I thought I either need to buy a new LN or LV or try a making a woodie. I just finished reading Finck's book & am eager to start. After paying $40 for a hock blade at lee valley, I thought, there has to be a cheaper way for folks wanting to try these out.

I read a post here about a member who's club made their own irons. I'm proposing we do the same here at SMC to let folks experiment with building their own planes.

I'm willing to buy the raw material & handle distribution. Anybody here have the ability to machine the stock (cut to length & rough bevel) and/or heat treat in exchange for a few free plane irons? I'd propose we do 1/4 thick O1 steel (less expensive) in a couple widths w/o chipbreakers to keep it simple and maybe even some necked down versions for dado or moulding planes.

I'm thinking 3/4 & 1-1/4, (necked down for dado / moulding plane) 1-1/2, 1-3/4 and 2" straight widths. Raw materials would range from $3 to $6 per iron (assuming 5" length). Full costs to be calculated before project begins.

Assuming folks are intereted in the group make/buy, I figure it's only appropriate that we have a competition to see who's plane is best. Simple rules - 2 catagories - Rookie plane makers (never done one before) & everybody else. Multipal prizes per catagory - most exotic wood, funkiest shape, best shavings completely handmade (no electrons expended) etc. (looking for suggestions here)

Entries judged by an "impartial" panel. Winners to get bragging rights and maybe a plaque of some kind.

So, what do y'all think? what size(s) would you be interested in?

Regards

[Zahid Naqvi]

Steve, I went through the same cycle not too long ago. I have made several woodies, you may find pictures of some here in SMC. Count me in as a participant, but I can't do any machining to save my life. I know there are outfits which can do heat treatment for a fee, but they require a significant sized order to even entertain an offer.
Some fellow at woodcentral started a similar thread a while back. He got a lot of replies, I indicated my participation as well but I never heard back from him. So I don't know what came out of that initiative.

[Lars Thomas]

I'd be interesting in purchasing, but can't help with machining. Lars

[John Goodridge]

I have been planning to try to my hand at plane making. Mainly pontificating and reading so far. How to handle the heat treatment has been a question. I contacted one place local to me (Fort Worth, TX) and they said that they would do small batches. He said the minimum cost for O1 was $85 + a 10% energy surcharge. I do not know how much steel could be done for that minimum batch. My more recent thoughts were to give the heat treatment a shot on my own; but if we can get a group together to reduce the cost, that sounds cool.

I would be interested in participating. Maybe it would blast me from the reading phase to actually doing phase. I do not have access to real equipment for the machining. My plans were to use a hacksaw, grinder and files. I can aid in that more primitive manner.

As for sizes, I would suggest some small sizes as well (1/4" and 1/2"), for plow planes.

[John Schreiber]

I would be interested in a group heat treat for 01 steel if such a thing ever occurred. I've been meaning to make some carving blades, but the heat treating has me scared. For what I'm doing, a hardness on the high side for woodworking of around 60-62 is what I'm hoping for.

[Larry Gelder]

Find a knifemaker and send the blades out when he/she is getting the knive-blades treated.

If you're interested, I'll ask a knifemaker friend if he's willing and how much it'll cost.

[Michael Fross]

My shortlist of projects includes making a wooden smoother. If it's not too much, I'm in. Actually, I'm probably in for 2 or 3....

Michael

[Steve Dewey]

I have a wire e.d.m. at work and have had the same dream for the last few months. Maybe I could arange something here.

Seems a little overkill. If I remember correctly you can work the steel with conventional machines (mill lathe etc.) so long as you do it before heat treat. Might require carbide tooling?

So this brings up another question - should we even bother roughing a bevel? Personally I'd be cleaning it up on a wet grinder (tormek) - I'd think if you used a slow speed grinder w/ friable wheel & were careful not to overheat it, we could grind our own bevels from straight cut blanks. I'll do some homework...

Seems that small pottery kilns can be adapted for our purpose (and can be bought used for about the same as a new lie nielson bench) - I'm keeping my eye out for one. Perhaps I could "fill the gap" - offer small lot services for a modest price (to recoup the capital investment)

[Andrew Homan]

I just got some irons from a similar project. A College of the Redwoods grad put out the offer to have a batch of irons heat-treated, since at a certain volume it made sense to get a bunch of people in on it and save money. People sent him irons that they cut, or he cut them (I had him do this for me). He used Starrett 01, and I got 4 irons, each 1/4" thick x 1 3/4" wide, for a total, including shipping, of about $7 each, so the savings were really substantial. These were professionally heat-treated. I'm going to build some planes this winter with a friend.
-Andy

[Zahid Naqvi]

Looks like if Andrew can convince his friend to join SMC we'll be in good shape.;)

[Chuck Saunders]

Count me in. You would probably want a starter bevel just to keep from grinding a lot of hardened steel. I would think that cutting the bevel with a n abrasive chopsaw would work quite well and be quick. I can help cut if need be.
Chuck

[Michael Fross]

Count me in. You would probably want a starter bevel just to keep from grinding a lot of hardened steel. I would think that cutting the bevel with a n abrasive chopsaw would work quite well and be quick. I can help cut if need be.
Chuck

I agree. A rough bevel would be very good, and fairly easy to grind prior to head treating. Not having a grinder (although this might be an excuse to pick one up), it would take a long time to create one on the waterstones! :rolleyes:

Actually, a slow speed grinder would be on my "grinders to buy" list prior to a normal one.

Michael

[Bob Hallowell]

I would be in for a blade or 3 myself!!

Bob

[Mike Swindell]

I'm surprised no one has looked at the knife making forums for heat treating. There are lots of knifemakers using a propane/MAPP powered forge using an old Freon tank and fire brick.

http://ronreil.abana.org/minifor1.shtml

http://webpages.charter.net/smith975/sirjames/forge/forge.htm

http://www.hybridburners.com/#Burners

http://www.geocities.com/zoellerforge/miniforge.html

Find an A/C shop that has surplus tanks laying around, fire brick can be had in many places. I think the forge sites sell the fireproof wool for lining the tanks or there's always that famous auction site.

[Steve Dewey]

Those forges would certainly do the job, although probably need a bit more skill to operate than an electric oven... Also seems difficult to treat more than 1 blade at a time.

I posted a question on the home shop machinist board. Feedback so far is that O1 is workable with normal tooling (bandsaw, hacksaw, or even file) - ie carbide not required before heat treating. As far as the heat treat, the recommendation was to heat it with a propane torch and quench in a bucket of hydraulic oil. Probably wouldn't be able to heat the entire blade at the same time, but only the first 1" of the cuting edge is what we care about. I'm waiting for an answer if using an abrasive chop saw has any detrimental effects (due to the heat).

A trial run may be in order. Maybe I'll buy a length of stock, chop it up, rough the bevel, treat them with a torch & temper in my wife's oven (maybe I should buy a yard sale toaster oven for that job:D ) I'd be happy to mail some samples out for evaluation. Is 1 1/2" a good "trial size"?

[Chuck Saunders]

Steve,
The chopsaw would not be a problem because the heating period is brief and the heat treatment process brings the steel up to high temperature just like you would to anneal (make soft). It is the quench (cooling) that makes it hard, followed by the temper (reheating) that makes it tough.
Chuck

[Rick Lizek]

Woodcraft was selling the Hock Cryo blades for $40. Seems to me that's a reasonable price. Comsidering all the research and perfecting of the product I don't think the Hock blades are out of line on price. These kinds of do it yourself things to save money can actually cost more in the ling run. I make tools and machines for our shop and there's times they want me to make something because they think I can make it cheaper. Soemtimes I can but not always. Often the real reason to make something is becuase you want to as a learning experience. The money saving thing is often a myth.

With many tools it's typically much cheaper in the long run to buy from a manufacturer. Many folks don't realize it but there are more machines and handtools being produced than there were thirty years ago and beleieve it or not they are for the most part cheaper than they were thirty years ago, at least in machine tools.

Pre-hardened stock is available in standard widths and the holes can be cut by EDM (Electro Discharge Machine). There's even plenty of Cryo treatment places around. There's many ways to do this. I'd be posting it on the knife forums or machinist forums as they would be more in the know of such things.

[Steve Dewey]

...Often the real reason to make something is becuase you want to as a learning experience. The money saving thing is often a myth.

With many tools it's typically much cheaper in the long run to buy from a manufacturer. Many folks don't realize it but there are more machines and handtools being produced than there were thirty years ago and beleieve it or not they are for the most part cheaper than they were thirty years ago, at least in machine tools.....

I certainly don't disagree with this statement and actually have a hock blade on order from Lee Valley (should be here tomorrow:D ). For my own situation, in the interest of marital bliss - it is easier for me to spend a couple hours in the shop making something myself than it is to get the accountant to sign off on an expensive tool. I try to only go before "review board" if I absolutely need something because I don't hav ethe capability or because an upgrade will greatly improve my productivity (less shop time, more family time). Especially this project which even I consider a hobby on top of a hobby. If I were to factor my labor in, I'd be ahead to buy a plane (iron or woodie) from one of the better vendors than doing it myself. I'd also be ahead to have bought a LV or LN bench plane than spend the 4 hours I did flattening an old Stanley from ebay.

To sum up my Long winded response, the goal is to get 4 irons for $40 so I can enjoy the learning experience of building a hand plane 4 times. Sure the blade isn't going to be as good as the Hock blade, but should perform well enough for me to try making & using different handplanes. If I come up with a "keeper" and our DIY blades don't hold up, maybe then upgrade to a better iron...

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not an expert but from what I've read about heat treating steel, it appears that good control over temperature is critical to achieving optimum results. The old blacksmiths did it by eye but it took a lot of training and experiments to learn - and then it was not consistent. Without instrumentation or experience it will be difficult to achieve close to optimum results.

I would bite the bullet and get a professional heat treater to do the whole bunch at one time.

Mike

[Michael Fross]

I would bite the bullet and get a professional heat treater to do the whole bunch at one time.

Mike
I agree Mike. If we get enough folks interested, it's going to be very reasonable.

That being said, I've read Larson's book "Tool Making for Woodworkers" and it's really interesting stuff.

Michael

[Larry Williams]

... The old blacksmiths did it by eye but it took a lot of training and experiments to learn - and then it was not consistent. Without instrumentation or experience it will be difficult to achieve close to optimum results....
Mike
Give me a little time. I'm working on getting an article on the web that'll greatly simplify this and make accuracy easy. One possible issue is that I plan to put it on our web site. I don't know if I can post a link to an informatin page on a commercial site.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Welcome Larry Williams. I was really sorry you couldn't make it to Marlboro MA because of the snowstorm for the L-N event a couple of weeks ago. You are correct that you can't post a link to your website since it is both yours and a commercial one. In the interest of getting the information out to folks though, if you PM or email me with the link, I will post it when you are ready. That will keep us in compliance with the Terms of Service of SMC.

For those of you who don't know Larry, he is one of the owners of Clark & Williams Planemakers in Eureka Springs Arkansas. They produce some of the finest accurate reproductions of 18th century planes available anywhere. I have been fortunate to own one of his 55 degree smoothers for a few years now and it performs flawlessly. Larry is also an well known expert on antique hand tools, a teacher of planemaking, and a very experienced woodworker. This year he was honored by being named an Arkansas State Living Treasure.

[Steve Dewey]

Larry, after checking out your website (google the information Dave posted to find it) I'm honored that my thread was your first post here at SMC. From what I can tell from the writeups & pix, your work looks to be outstanding. Looking forward to your future contributions.

Regards,

[Blaine Harrison]

I've (failed at making) made one wooden plane. It was a class taught by Tod Hurley. The class included hardening the steel using MAPP gas and quenching in peanut oil. It was pretty cool (pun intended) to do. We did grind out a rough bevel on a grinding wheel before heating/quenching, but it was really quite easy and quick. The last step was to be done at home, which was to heat the blade to 350° F for about an hour to get the final hardness of RC 58-62 (I think those were the parameters).

Blaine

[Andrew Homan]

I'm responding to the point about saving money when making blades being a myth. The blades that I got -- coming out to $7 including shipping -- are of a simplicity not available in Hock's line of products. These are not slotted for chipbreakers and of course do not include a chipbreaker or chipbreaker screw. They are 1/4" thick, beveled at 45 degrees (this was done to save time), and heat-treated by the same heat-treater used by Hock. The guy who did this for me makes planes for his own use with no chipbreaker.

I also have a Hock blade/chipbreaker combo for use in making a Krenov plane.

The design of the plane will of course vary based on whether a chipbreaker is used.

I'm not sure how many irons were in the total batch, but the total cost of the heat-treating must have been reasonable. I'd be interested in making some blades for grooves and mouldings. There currently are no commercially available blades for making these styles of wooden planes.
-Andy
P.S. am really happy to see Larry posting on this forum -- hello!

[Zahid Naqvi]

Larry, wow! good to have you amongst us.
My impression was that we were going to get together a bunch of guys who want to get plane baldes (probably multiple each). Once we are done with shaping, boring holes, grinding primary bevels etc. we will send it to a guy who will get it professionally heat treated by a manufacturer.

So why is there so much concern about propper heat treating, we are not the ones doing it. Or did I miss something along the way.

[Michael Fross]

By the ways, what width's is everyone thinking? My first plane will be a smoother, I'm thinking about 2 inchs or perhaps 1 3/4.

We'll probably need to agree on one or two sizes. I'm pretty open, however.

Michael

[Mike Swindell]

The composition of O1 tool steel, which is the ideal steel for plane provides a fool proof method when the steel obtains the right color - it becomes non magnetic. Once your hunk of steel becomes non magnetic, quench it in peanut oil, grind your bevel and harden in your toaster oven.

Regarding chipbreakers, the jury is still out. Steve Knight, Clark and Williams and others do not use a chip breaker in their designs. As long as you have a very tight mouth or adjustable mouth no chipbreaker is required.

Here's two planes I made without chipbreakers and adjustable mouths, they work quite well. I stole the design of the wedge tension from the Aussie, whose name I can't recall. The irons were made by a member from another forum for $25 ea. he heat heatreated in his back yard forge.

[Mike Swindell]

Hock tools has a good web page on heat treating, http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.htm

[Tom Cooney]

Making woodies is a blast. I've made a few using hock double irons and some with a single blade. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=29422

I made the single blades by hacksawing O1 blanks smoothing the edges with a file and rough grinding the bevels...it's a lot easier to remove the metal at the annealed stage. A propane torch, vice grips, heat glove, some fire brick and old motor oil for quenching sufficed to handle the heat treating. I used the toaster oven (please don't tell the Mrs.) and a the oven thermometer to temper. All in all a fun activity and not hard at all.

I really want to start building some simple molding profiles starting with some hollows and rounds.

[John Schreiber]

For me the reason I don't want to get into heat treating is that it's just one step too many from what I'm originally trying to do.

I do woodworking, so I use steel tools.

I use steel tools, so I have to be able to sharpen steel.

I want tools that aren't quite standard, so I have to be able to shape steel.

To make that shaped steel into a tool which will hold an edge, I need to make an oven of some kind which will include insulation, a heat source, temperature gauge, a way to control temperature changes over time, then I need a warm oil bath to quench and an oven with accurate temperature control to temper.

Next, I'll be making my own fire bricks, trying to create my own propane and crushing fresh peanuts to make peanut oil.

I've got to cut it off somewhere and it seems to me that the skills and knowledge for heat treating are so different from woodworking that I will cut it off there. Other people may want to cut it off at different places, and they may have different needs, but that's what works for me.

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Now a question: When you buy the blank O1 steel from Starrett or another source, is it in an annealed state or do you need to anneal it before you start working it?

[Dave Anderson NH]

John, Almost every source I know of for the tool steels like O-1, A2, W-1, etc sell the steel in a soft (fully annealed) state. This includes Starrett, MSC, and McMaster-Carr, all great sources for the hobbiest. The High Speed Steels like M2 are usually sold fully hardened however.

For those of you who want to do your own heat treating of O-1, I strongly suggest you forget using motor oil if the work will be done in the house. The issue is one of domestic peace. The smoke it gives off smells awful and will certainly gain you a rapid response from your spouse or significant other. Use either peanut oil or walnut oil which still smoke a bit, but have much more palatable aromas. If you use these, you can do the annealing after the hardening in the kitchen oven on an old pie plate without causing domestic problems. I still however do mine after Sue's gone to bed at night.... I'm not too bright, but I'm not completely stupid.

[Mike Swindell]

For me the reason I don't want to get into heat treating is that it's just one step too many from what I'm originally trying to do.

I do woodworking, so I use steel tools.

I use steel tools, so I have to be able to sharpen steel.

I want tools that aren't quite standard, so I have to be able to shape steel.

To make that shaped steel into a tool which will hold an edge, I need to make an oven of some kind which will include insulation, a heat source, temperature gauge, a way to control temperature changes over time, then I need a warm oil bath to quench and an oven with accurate temperature control to temper.

Next, I'll be making my own fire bricks, trying to create my own propane and crushing fresh peanuts to make peanut oil.

I've got to cut it off somewhere and it seems to me that the skills and knowledge for heat treating are so different from woodworking that I will cut it off there. Other people may want to cut it off at different places, and they may have different needs, but that's what works for me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now a question: When you buy the blank O1 steel from Starrett or another source, is it in an annealed state or do you need to anneal it before you start working it?

You're certainly taking the effort of making tools to the extreme. If you couldn't go buy lumber for your next project, you'd have to buy a chain saw, cut the tree down, mill the lumber, wait two years to air dry and then mill to a usable dimension.

Making tools is not that much removed. Have you looked at any site about backyard heatreating ? For under $200 bucks you'd have a pretty cool little forge and make all the tools you'll ever need including knives that will be better than most any store bought brands.

A heat sorce is a Mapp tank from the BORG, temperature gauge not needed or you can use temp sticks whcih melt at the right temperature. Insulating wool - ebay or knife supply houses, fire brick, the BORG. A toaster oven or your own oven for hardening.

Ron Hock will make you anything you desire at reasonable cost form either O1 or A2.