a tool I'd like to see developed

[Mark Pruitt]

I doubt that I am alone when I say I find sanding to be tedious, boring, and time-consuming. Every time I sand a bowl, I stand there wishing I could get it done more quickly and yet knowing that being less than thorough with any grit will bite me seriously when I get to a finer grit. Multiple times, I've made the anguishing discovery at 320 or 400 that there are still scratches that require dropping back to 220 or even 120. (This, of course, only lengthens an already-too-lengthy task.):mad:

I would like to see a sanding tool (power tool of course!) developed that will shorten the amount of time it takes to achieve thoroughness with any given grit. The Power-Lock discs that I am currently using in my drill are doing fairly well, but what I would really like to see is something with a random-orbit movement that will cut way back on swirl marks. This tool should accomodate various sizes of abrasives for small or large areas, and it should also accomodate tight curves in turned profiles. Additionally, it should offer a long extension to reach otherwise inaccessible areas.

Am I asking for the moon here? Is this even on anyone's radar screen? Or is this very tool already "out there" somewhere and I simply haven't found it? Knowing my luck, if it is, it's probably pneumatic and requires about three times the CFM as what I have...

I'm saying this after spending heaven-knows-how-many-hours sanding this weekend. Grrrrr......

[Dennis Peacock]

Yup and here ya go Mark.!!!!

http://grextools.com/grexusa/products.php5?id=AOS368

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark.....I have that 2" Grex....works well. I found it at Packard for $99 IIRC.

[John Hart]

For what it's worth Mark....I'm going to buy Dennis' suggestion from Amazon by the end of this week. It's $110 and I think it'll be one of my best investments yet. I went through this whole thing last year and this model was highly recommended.

[John Hart]

Mark.....I have that 2" Grex....works well. I found it at Packard for $99 IIRC.

Oh you do? Cool Ken! So....how is it in the bogging down department. and do you have a problem with speed control or bouncing or any-o-that type of stuff.


Oh yeah...what about the hook and loop.....Does it melt easily?

[Jim Becker]

Mark, wipe the piece down with mineral spirits between each grit. It will do two things for you:

1) clean off any stray grit that contributes to scratching "later" in the sanding process
2) help you identify whether or not it's actually time to move to the next finer grit

Free bonus benefit

3) helps reduce dust

I am also a proponent of power sanding...it helps a lot to not only speed up the process, but also helps avoid those nasty scratches that you can get from the edge of a piece of abrasive paper due to the rotary action combined with the turning of the lathe. Electric or pneumatic...doesn't matter. Good idea. I currently use a Souix angle drill and when it goes to the great tool graveyard, I'll probably pick up the Grex pneumatic tool as a replacement as it is less prone to the effects of dust over time.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John.........the speed adjustment works well. The only time I've had melt down on the hook and loop is when I was pushing it too hard ...too fast...but I will be buying a wave adapter for it in the future. I've been using wave paper on it and with out the rubber wave adapter the wave edges will eventually bend over and can render the paper useless on the finer grits.

[Mark Singer]

I have the Grex also....along with many other "off the beaten track tools for shaping";) ...It is a good one....no dust collection though...I have their die grinder also and run end mills and rotary rasps in it...It takes a little practice.
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000HHRL80.01-A2O31WLQ6XKZR7._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V61509112_.jpg

http://www.averyknight.co.uk/imagprod/sphericalrsaplarge.jpg

http://www.hobbytool.com/ProductImages/drillaccess/365-1tn.gif

[Bill Grumbine]

...I've made the anguishing discovery at 320 or 400 that there are still scratches that require dropping back to 220 or even 120. :mad:


Hi Mark

I don't know at what grit you start sanding, but in my shop, just about anything faceplate orientation (grain running sideways) gets sanded with 80 grit to start. I know there are all sorts of people here and everywhere else who talk about starting at higher grits like 180 and 220 and such like that. They must be better at tool control than I am. ;) But I have found that 80 grit removes tooling marks, tearout, and hard spots (my definiton of a hard spot is a ridge or abrupt change of surface direction) much faster than any other grit. Once those marks are completely gone, it is a fairly fast progression up the grits. I will utter yet another blashphemy for some now. I stop at 320 grit most of the time! :eek: So you see, I have to start sanding with coarser stuff, since I finish up right where some people like to start!

I use a Sioux drill for most sanding. When I arrive at my final grit, whether it is 220, 320, or on those rare occasions, 400, I do the final passes with a Grex random orbit sander, which has already been mentioned. Do not expect the Grex to replace your drill and rotary sanding regimen, or you will be sorely disappointed. It is not very good at heavy stock removal or shaping wood. It is good at sanding out the scratches left by any particular grit when the same grit is used with the Grex following a regular drill. I have had mine since October of 2005, and it took me a little bit of time to get used to it.

One more thing about the Grex. It likes air, and lots of it. I have a 27 gallon compressor, plus lots of reserve air in fat copper lines running around the shop, and I can get that compressor running continuously if I am doing a lot of sanding.

Good luck with your quest.

Bill

[Mark Pruitt]

Like Bill, I start at 80 also. The one thing I can say for myself is that I am consistent enough with the "80 grit gouge" that I do not have to revert back to it. 120 is my next grit for power sanding. I use 100 grit paper by hand before 120. Evidently I stop using 120 too soon, but nonetheless I spend a painful amount of time with that grit, trying to clean up the marks from 80. Maybe the Grex would solve that.

The Grex unit comes very close to what I had in mind, but its 2" diameter limits its usefulness for tight situations. As an example of what I'm talking about, consider the neck in John Hart's walnut hollow vase (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=47883) that he posted this past weekend. The Grex is incapable of reaching into that tight of a profile unless it has some attachment that I can't find.

[John Hart]

....The Grex is incapable of reaching into that tight of a profile unless it has some attachment that I can't find.

I was thinking about retrofitting my sawzall with a handy little sanding pad for those tight neck areas. ;)

[Jim King]

I Must admit I´ve heard about power sanding and did not know it was done with a power tool sanding on a turning lathe. I thought power sanding was sanding when the lathe was turning.

You all had me confused.

[Jim Becker]

Yup...that's what it is, Jim. The advantages when you can (not usable for all or part of natural edge pieces or some things with "natural interruptions" in their form) it's fast and keeps the scratch pattern totally random.

[Curt Fuller]

Hi Mark

I don't know at what grit you start sanding, but in my shop, just about anything faceplate orientation (grain running sideways) gets sanded with 80 grit to start. I know there are all sorts of people here and everywhere else who talk about starting at higher grits like 180 and 220 and such like that. They must be better at tool control than I am. ;) But I have found that 80 grit removes tooling marks, tearout, and hard spots (my definiton of a hard spot is a ridge or abrupt change of surface direction) much faster than any other grit. Once those marks are completely gone, it is a fairly fast progression up the grits. I will utter yet another blashphemy for some now. I stop at 320 grit most of the time! :eek: So you see, I have to start sanding with coarser stuff, since I finish up right where some people like to start!

Bill

I don't know anything about the GREX tool but when I read what Mr. Bill Grumbine said about his sanding requirements it was like a weight lifting off my shoulders. I've never been able to get away from starting at 80 grit on side grain bowls but knowing Mr. Bill has the same problem makes me feel a whole lot better about my self and my tool control.
I might add that I never use 400 or higher grit until I get to sanding between layers of finish.

[Jim Ketron]

Sounds like you might be using too much pressure Mark?
after you get the last of the tooling/tearout with the 80 grit sand for a bit longer with very light pressure. Helps a Bunch;)

[Gary DeWitt]

What's being missed by the tool manufacturers, IMHO, is smaller pads, like maybe 1", for tighter curves and smaller turnings. Should be quickly interchangeable with the 2 and 3" ones.
Another thing we could use, like on John's walnut turning, is some sanding rope. They make small cord for getting in tight spaces on spindles, what about various sizes of grit impregnated rope for the larger coves that are nontheless difficult to sand any other way?

[John Hart]

One thing that does work on a tight cove is those small dremel sanding drums....if you can reach it. The dremel doesn't have much weight so you have to go lightly. I would prefer a sanding rope like Gary suggests though.

[Tyler Howell]

I wonder if there is finally a use for this VS Roto-Zip thats been collceting dust for tears now:confused:

[John Hart]

I was just taking the girls to school and came up with an idea on the under-lip tight cove problem. Tyler probably sparked the idea really.

Cut a shaft out of acrylic or ebony or something else strong that can be mounted halfway inside a pen tube and sticks out to be inserted into the drill chuck or rotozip or whatever. Then turn another shaft with a ball on the end that is a slip-fit into the other end of the pen tube.

Cut a strip of adhesive-backed sandpaper...maybe a 1/4" wide and wrap the pen tube with the sandpaper in a spiral configuration.

Use it by running the lathe and holding the end with the little ball handle. The slip fit will allow the shaft to turn freely but give good control.

[Glenn Hodges]

I also hate sanding. This is my Christmas present to myself.
http://www.katools.com/guinevere.html
It might help you, especially doing hollow forms, and those endgrain problems in bowls.

[Bill Grumbine]

What's being missed by the tool manufacturers, IMHO, is smaller pads, like maybe 1", for tighter curves and smaller turnings. Should be quickly interchangeable with the 2 and 3" ones.

Somebody makes a 1" pad and sanding disks for it. I forget who now, but I bought one in Louisville last summer from Steve Worcester. Of course, I have not had opportunity to use it yet, but I will one of these days! Steve can be found over on the AAW site if you would be interested in buying one from him, and he is a great guy to deal with.

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

Sounds like you might be using too much pressure Mark?
after you get the last of the tooling/tearout with the 80 grit sand for a bit longer with very light pressure. Helps a Bunch;)

Jim makes a very good point here. Often, there is one or two grains of grit that while they may be the same size as the rest of the grit on your paper, seem to stick up further. These can leave deeper scratches than all the rest of the grit, and can be very frustrating to remove. Russ Fairfield recommends knocking off the tops (and it escapes memory how he does it) but his articles are published somewhere on the web. :rolleyes: ;)

Bill

[Jim Becker]

One thing to consider is that the smaller pads get less efficient 'cause they are turning "slower". If you look at a used 2" pad, you'll notice that most of the "action" is at the outer edge and dust/debris just collects closer to the center. A 1" pad on the same drill/driver is spining much slower at it's edge than the edge of the 2" pad.

[Reed Gray]

I haven't gotten one of the Grex sanders yet. I don't really need one, but then, what does need have to do with it? The random orbit type of sanders are not for the coarser grits. They just aren't aggressive enough. They work better for the finer finishing grits. I have several of the Sioux/Milwaukee drills and they hold up pretty well.

Like Bill, I also start with 80 grit most of the time on my bowls. Usually I can start on 120 and even 150 on the outside of the bowl, but the inside always requires more work. The proper speed of both the drill and the bowl are still a major unsolved puzzel to me. You don't want heat while sanding, bad for wood, pads, and discs. I was talking to Vince of VincesWoodNWonders who has those blue sanding discs about speed. Now usually when I was sanding, using the slow speed drill, I would keep the trigger pressed all the way down, and the lathe speed way down also (I like warped bowls). I was having some ot the hook pads melting off of the soft foam pads. Vince recomends rpm of the disc in the 600 to 700 rpm for the coarser grits, and 300 to 400 for the finer grits. Now I have a 1/4 inch thick piece of cork under the trigger to limit the speed of the drill. I have sanded out 50 or so bowls this way. I don't loose any pads or discs this way. It seems like it takes a bit longer to sand, but I am not really sure about that. If it is slower, it is a very small amount of time. With the higher speeds you do get bouncing and skipping. Vince also recomended using the firm pads for the coarser grits, up to 220 or so, then switching to the soft pads for the fine grits. I used to keep the soft pad on all the time because it conformed to the inside of the bowl better than the firm discs. Vinces firm pads have about a 1/4 inch roundover on the outside edge, and his discs are cut at 3 3/8 and 2 3/8 inch diameter so that they will wrap over the edge of the pad like the wave discs do. The rounded over edge makes the firm disc work well on the inside of the bowl. Switching to the firm pads really cut a lot of time off of the sanding. Sorry if I am sounding like a comercial here, but his stuff is the best by a long shot that I have found out there.

As far as those scratches that show up when you are ready to finish, I have a few ways of dealing with them. General rule of thumb is to sand till you think you have all the scratches from the previous grit out, then hit it one more time. When first switching to the power sanding, I would stop at 150 grit or so, and hand sand with 150 grit. This would leave a different scratch pattern and the curved scratches of the discs would show up. I don't use this step any more. Now, I will wipe the inside and outside of the bowl with my hands. The dust from the finer grits will go down into scratches from the coarser grits and highlite them. I also will turn the bowl by hand a lot while sanding as it is hard to see scratches while the bowl is spinning. Good light also helps. I did get one of those lights advertised in Woodturning Design (full sprectrum), and it is as good as taking your bowl out into the sunlight.

robo hippy

[Mark Pruitt]

Another thing we could use, like on John's walnut turning, is some sanding rope. They make small cord for getting in tight spaces on spindles, what about various sizes of grit impregnated rope for the larger coves that are nontheless difficult to sand any other way?

One thing that does work on a tight cove is those small dremel sanding drums....if you can reach it. The dremel doesn't have much weight so you have to go lightly. I would prefer a sanding rope like Gary suggests though.
I like the rope idea and the Dremel as well. I even have the snake attachment to my Dremel. I'm listening to you guys and racking my own pea-brain at the same time.....you know what? I'm thinking complex when maybe I need to think simple. Like, a piece of dowel rod wrapped with the appropriate grit and chucked into a drill. There's one big problem: the abrasive would likely wear out before accomplishing the task, so I would constantly be changing out abrasives.....unless I could get my hands on more durable stuff like sanding belts......Hmmm.....I think I might chase this rabbit.....but I'm still looking at that Grex!;)

[George Tokarev]

What's being missed by the tool manufacturers, IMHO, is smaller pads, like maybe 1", for tighter curves and smaller turnings. Should be quickly interchangeable with the 2 and 3" ones.
Another thing we could use, like on John's walnut turning, is some sanding rope. They make small cord for getting in tight spaces on spindles, what about various sizes of grit impregnated rope for the larger coves that are nontheless difficult to sand any other way?

Bad choice. Tighter curves increase the possibility of cuts across the grain. Visual acuity is a combination of resolution and contrast, and a scratch in the same direction as the grain fades, while one of the same depth across the grain shows like the proverbial thumb. Orbital sanders characteristically make 3/16 or so orbits to keep things blended into the background.

They do make 1" disks, but you have to use them with extreme caution. Only place I've found them useful is in the sanding of a mortise in natural-edge pieces which have been allowed to dry and warp freely. Sanding broad coves is done by the same method as you do in flat work, wrapping sandpaper around a dowel, even a rope or one of those rubber shapes you can buy for "detail" sanders. Broad enough coves, and the flex edge types or even your soft velcro-backed disks can be used.

Two ways of cutting down contrast and making scratches disappear. One is random orbit which makes for a lot of light scatter at the surface, other is sanding along with the flow of the wood, which blends even larger scratches into the grain. Check this issue of FWW for some neat pictures.

Then you can do some other tricks like reduce diffraction by buffing the wood, or use a satin finish which scatters and diffuses the light after it's reflected from the surface of the wood. Sort of like high molecular weight waxes, which operate on the same principle, scattering even what's reflected from a smooth, gloss surface.

Personally, I've found that taking care of the final paring passes with the gouge saves two grits minimum, and sends nothing to my nose. That's why I'll even hone my gouge if that's what it takes. Allows three grits and out, and since sanding is donkey work done after the fun and creative part is through, I'm all for it.