Shop tour # 8 Sliding Table Saw

[lou sansone]

good evening fellow ww's

I have been using the "tecnomax 315 ws " ( mini max / scmi's new beefy machines that are heavier than the older 315's ) sliding table saw for about 9 months now and really love it.

This is my 4th table saw and maybe my last;) . Previous to this I owned a 10" unisaw ( jet version that was very nice ), a Rockwell 16" RT-40 table saw ( 7.5 hp monster saw) and finally an Oliver 260 D twin 5 hp direct drive 16" table saw ( this saw has 2 - 16" blades each with their own motor - very cool indeed ) with a sliding table.

I spent a long time researching and driving all over the north east looking at saws prior to buying the tecnomax. I visited showrooms and actual cabinetmakers who make a living day in and day out with these saws. I almost bought an older martin slider, had the bank check in hand and walked away from the deal. I also almost bought a Northfield # 4 slider ( about an hour away from shaking hands ) and backed out. I also chased a wadkin pk slider for some time and finally walked away from that as well. I also looked at the "competition" from Austria which has many fine features, but in the end I chose the Italian machine for a variety of reasons. I actually spent so many hours checking out the competition that the showroom manager commented "what the heck is that guy doing ?" I am an engineer and design and build all types of machines for a living, so I have a pretty good eye for design. The tecnomax 315 ws is a pretty well designed saw for the money. One could argue that all of these machine are way over priced for what they do, but them's the facts.



For those who are new here at SMC I have provided the links to all of my other tours, which I think some might find useful as they build their shops.

Shop tour # 1 Main building
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17821

#2 Lumber storage building
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17916


#3 Monster lathe
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18192

#4 Work benches
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18204

#6A 16" Table Saw
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18645

#6B 16" Jointer
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18836

#6c Rare Radial Arm Drill press
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18970

#7A 37" timesavers wide belt sander
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19201

#7B 24" planer
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19463

#7C 36" direct drive 3000 lb band saw
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19846


Ok on with the slider photos. I have chosen to take a bunch of photos of this machine because both the Italians and the Austrians don't really show you what is under the hood in their literature for what ever reason.

stats :
9 hp - 3 phase main motor
0.75 hp - 3 phase scoring motor
8.5 foot slider with out rigger and separate miter fence
~1700 lbs
12" blade with 1" arbor hole
dove tail ways for raise / lower
Tilt via acme thread & dial indicator read-out
traditional trunnion design, not cantilevered or pillow block
full blade dust flask design
true riving knife
rack and pinion fence with removable aluminum extrusion

I build almost exclusively 18th century American furniture using solid wood for the most part. I really wondered if a slider was appropriate for that type of work. I worried that this saw would be awkward to use. Some told me of a steep learning curve. What I found is that sliders are very natural to use and the learning curve for me was about 2 weeks. I would never, never go back to a unisaw type machine. A slider is so accurate and can do things that used to be very difficult on a traditional CS with great ease. You will notice a door on my slider in some of the photos. This particular door is ~ 250 years old and is part of a restoration that I am still doing on my home. This door will end up having no square corners with I am done fitting it to the weird opening in my house. It is extremely easy to do this type of surgery on a slider and much harder and somewhat dangerous to do it on a cabinet saw. This is just one example of the versatility of the slider. I could list many others.
Please enjoy the photos and ask questions
thanks for looking
Lou

[lou sansone]

here are some detail photos
the motor and the dust collection

[lou sansone]

here are some photos showing the crosscut and the separate miter fence which is just the greatest thing for solid wood

[Mike Cutler]

One word only Lou.... SWEEEEEEEET....:cool:

[lou sansone]

just a few more for completeness

[Jay Brewer]

Very nice saw Lou, I like the new technomax saws, great shop also.

[Bruce Page]

Lou, you have one of the nicest, most complete shops that I have ever seen.
Just wondering if the 315 feels a little intimidated by all the old iron that it shares space with.

[Todd Solomon]

That looks like one sweet machine, Lou. I've been impressed how MM has continued to refine their machines- yours looks very capable.

I owned it's little brother, the SC4-WS 8-1/2', which I don't think they make any more. It had the same slider and frame as the old S315, but without the trunnion and seperate scoring motor. The S315 had a nicer crosscut fence and flip stops as well. Never the less, that SC4 was a fine machine. If they've further improved the S315 with the Technomax model, all the better.

I agree that the S315 is the best machine for the money, especially at the sale price.

I've got one of those austrian machines that you mentioned (my 3rd and also my last table saw http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon7.gif ), which is a pretty remarkable machine as well. It has been flawless for the 2-1/2 years I've owned it.

I am hopeful that Jim Becker will soon join the slider fraternity, too. Just awaiting his gloat, any minute now...

Todd

[Roy Wall]

Congats Lou!! You DA Man!!

Does the saw have a digital readout on the blade height?

[lou sansone]

That looks like one sweet machine, Lou. I've been impressed how MM has continued to refine their machines- yours looks very capable.

I owned it's little brother, the SC4-WS 8-1/2', which I don't think they make any more. It had the same slider and frame as the old S315, but without the trunnion and separate scoring motor. The S315 had a nicer crosscut fence and flip stops as well. Never the less, that SC4 was a fine machine. If they've further improved the S315 with the Technomax model, all the better.

I agree that the S315 is the best machine for the money, especially at the sale price.

I've got one of those Austrian machines that you mentioned (my 3rd and also my last table saw http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon7.gif ), which is a pretty remarkable machine as well. It has been flawless for the 2-1/2 years I've owned it.

I am hopeful that Jim Becker will soon join the slider fraternity, too. Just awaiting his gloat, any minute now...

Todd

hi Todd
The Austrian machines have some refinements that I wish the Italians had. I do think their cross cut extrusions are better than the Italian machines. This is one area that scmi should really work on. The other area that should be looked at is the slider ledge. The Austrian machines have it in the 700 series and up, but you have to go to the 400 series in the scmi line before they introduce it. I have gotten use to the t slot on the side the the slider and it is really not that big of a deal, but again, if I wanted to cover all the bases from a business standpoint, I would think about changing the slider profile to include the ledge on the 315 and larger saws. Austrian or Italian, the most dramatic improvement in sawing technology is the European slider concept.
Lou

[Tom Hamilton]

Fabulous, Lou, thanks for sharing the detailed info and pics. Tom

[Travis Porter]

Very nice Lou, and a belated congratulations on an awesome addition. A slider will hopefully one day be in my line up as well.

[Greg Hairston]

Nice Saw Lou.

I seem to like Italian myself. Maybe I will get around to posting some pics of your machines big brother.....


Greg

[Jim Becker]

Thanks, Lou...great pictorial that answers a lot of questions. I just love the "contrast" between all your machines, too...a little old...a little new...a jointer that's somewhat blue...:D :D :D

[Gary Herrmann]

Uh Lou, can I have 20 minutes in your wood shed and walk out with whatever I find for free? 'Course I probably couldn't carry all I would want, but I'm sure you've got some big ole cart or something that would make it easier for me. :D

As always, great pics. Some day maybe I'll have tools of that quality and size. I'll need a much bigger main floor shop first tho...

Thanks for posting.

[Joe Mioux]

You have a great life!

Now I know why you responded to my slider v sawstop thread the way you did. How did you decide on this saw v other comparable models?

Lou, like Bruce Page stated you have a great shop.

thanks for letting us take a peak.

Joe

[Geoff Barry]

Lou,

Forgive me if you've discussed this elsewhere, but I'd be curious about your two-week learning curve. Paul Cresti had a pretty comprehensive thread about how he used his slider for ripping, but I'm still curious about adapting "solid wood work", for lack of a better term, to a slider, which I still think of as a panel making machine.

The reason I ask is that I'm coming to the end of my first table saw, a BT3100. Now, don't get me wrong, the BT3100 is no slider. However, if you can master the dark art of taking the give out of the sliding "table", it's pretty nifty. I've gotten used to clamping jigs on the table and running things by the blade. It's been a good saw for me, but all things come to an end, and after 4 years, I've been thinking about moving up to a cabinet saw. Some of the lower end sliders might be conceivable, though. I've been building solid wood furniture as a hobby (mainly arts & crafts style so far), and my concern has been how useful a slider would be for that type of work. Obviously, you felt that it was the right move -- you mention accuracy, and the ability to do things that are difficult on a cabinet saw. I'd be interested in a little more on that latter point :)

[Jim Becker]

Geoff, one of the biggies for transition to a slider is to get comfortable with clamping a board on the wagon for the rip cut as well as rethinking things that you might have used miter slots for in the past. Further, the safety factor goes up big-time as your hands and body are nowhere near the blade and the material is securly fastened to the machine. It just takes getting used to...processes are different, not difficult...and given that we humans are creatures of habit, it's largely a matter of "re-training" yourself.

As Paul has shown (as well as Sam Blasco and his wonderful jigs and adapters) there really isn't anything you can't accomplish with these saws.

Todd hinted that I'm considering one of these machines "as we speak"...and I work almost exclusively in solid woods. (Some of the cabinetry for our addition will be an exception to that for obvious reasons) I'm convinced that the benefits are great and that was reinforced by reading the piece by Mark Duginski that Todd posted about the other day. (It's in an insert that came with Woodshop News this week, too)

[Alan Turner]

Lou,
Great new toy. What was it about the old Oliver that you did not care for? When I was putting together my wish list for the new teaching studio, it was that same Oliver which I initially wanted, but ultimately decided that for reasons of safety, I really had no choice and went with the Sawstsop.
It is the only major "new" tool at PFW.

[lou sansone]

You have a great life!

Now I know why you responded to my slider v sawstop thread the way you did. How did you decide on this saw v other comparable models?

Lou, like Bruce Page stated you have a great shop.

thanks for letting us take a peak.

Joe


hi Joe
Once I had decided on a slider, vs a cabinet saw ( you name the type ) then it was a process of looking at the available models. There are several different manufactures of sliders for one to look at. At the top is martin and altendorf. Since this was my first slider, I wanted to be cautious with money and set a limit that excluded them. My next choice was really between 2 different mfgs. ( SCMI and Felder Groupe ). There are several other good mfgs out there like griggio, panhans, casadei ( I did actually also look at a casadei because I own their 24 " planer which I think is as good as any Italian machine out there ), robland, knapp and a few others.
SCMI seemed to me to be market dominate with lots of support if need be ( there has been no need yet, but with more sophisticated saws there probably would ). Felder also makes a great saw and I was on the fence with them. In the end, when I looked at a lot of the design features and the feel of the machine, I felt more comfortable with scmi's products.

Looking back now I have no regrets on my choice. If I was processing tons of sheet stock all day long, I would definitely buy a much heavier scmi or move right over to the German or Austrian machines ( kappa series looks to be quite well designed ).

best wishes

[Jim Dunn]

Lou that is so impressive. I have to make an observation though. White clashes with all the other greens and grays in your shop.:rolleyes:
Also looks like an over arm is needed for DC. Will one work with that type of saw?

[Jim Becker]

Also looks like an over arm is needed for DC. Will one work with that type of saw?

There is a dust collection guard that attaches to the top of the riving knive for through cuts that comes with the saw. Lou doesn't have it attached in these pictures. An optional overarm arrangement is also available.

[Greg Hairston]

Lou,
I actually have the slider ledge on my saw. I was not thrilled with the T slot that my Minimax CU 350 combo had after looking at the bigger machines. It looks like your crosscut table is similar to my 350 combo. I believe my SCMI 350 and the 400 have the same slider. The big difference is the 400 has all the bells and whistles where the stock 350 is a manual machine.... However there is a newer 350 that appears to be a more economical machine than mine. Maybe they made some changes this last year. I will post some pics later to confirm we are talking apples to apples. The one thing on my 350 is that you can not adjust the crosscut table and fence for angled cuts. For this you use the miter gauge which is very very stout and capable of handleing almost any task.

My comparison of the SCMI 350 and the Felder was that the SCMI seemed to be a bit beefier than the Felder but the Felder had a lot more features (these comparisons were done at machines around the same price point. Not the Kappa 400 which would compare to the SCMI 400). Both great machines and anyone would do well to own either. You may remember when we talked on the phone you pointed out the trunion issue. That is one of the things that made me go Italian vs German. The trunion on my saw is very beefy and well designed. The Felders pin system is also well designed but has not yet passed the test of Time....

Greg

[lou sansone]

Lou,
Great new toy. What was it about the old Oliver that you did not care for? When I was putting together my wish list for the new teaching studio, it was that same Oliver which I initially wanted, but ultimately decided that for reasons of safety, I really had no choice and went with the Sawstsop.
It is the only major "new" tool at PFW.

Hi Alan

the oliver 260 D is an impressive machine to say the least. I think that the oliver 88 is probably a more useful saw ( with the sliding table ). one of the down sides of the 260 is the raise and lower action. because the blade assembly is on a massive turret, the blades rise up close to you ( leading edge of the saw ) and then lower back down on the front edge of the saw. this means that the blade's cutting point really moves around when you have the blade at various heights. this may not make sense to you, but that is the best I can explain it.
the other reason I bought the saw was for the sliding table. the stroke on it is short and it was one of the reasons that I finally realized a long slider is the only type of slider to have. a short stroke slider is only good for very limited cutting situations.
finally, because it is direct drive it is extremely smooth running, but you need to run a 16" blade on it. I have to say it was sort of like running a sawmill with that thing whizzing around.

the SS is a great saw and If I were you I would have one. But I would also think about a slider as well. you got the room in that great mill building you're in.

best wishes and I hope to take a class next spring from you
Lou

ps photos of the 260 d ...color is off

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=27701

[Gary Curtis]

Lou, I went through the same agonizing search in 2005 and ended up with General's sliding table. Though it has an outrigger, the table only comes to within 8" of the blade, so ripping is limited.

What did your machine cost? What is the total weight of the equipment?

Gary Curtis
California

[Mark Hubler]

Here is a copy of the technomax brochure for the S315 and S350 saws http://www.lekime.be/PDF/MiniMax%20S315-S350%20WS%20-%20ENG.pdf

I saw this link over at Woodnet, from a posting about sliding saws

[Jim Becker]

Gary, you can see pricing on the S315WS on the Mini Max web site (http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage_norm&product_id=50&category_id=24&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26). The weight is a little over 1600 lbs.

[Bill Simmeth]

one of the down sides of the 260 is the raise and lower action. because the blade assembly is on a massive turret, the blades rise up close to you ( leading edge of the saw ) and then lower back down on the front edge of the saw. this means that the blade's cutting point really moves around when you have the blade at various heights.
Like any new tool, this nuance of the 260D does take a little time to adapt to. However, having adapted to it, I find it to be a major advantage of the saw. When doing fine cross-cut work, I find having the blade toward the front of the saw is a real plus. Combined with the slider, it gives me a greater feeling of control over the cut and better visibility for my aging eyes. When working panels, placing the blade toward the rear of the table allows me to take advantage of the increased table area to support the piece before it encounters the blade. Finally, if I really want the blade in the center of the table I simply rotate the turret to switch from the 16" WW2 to the 12" WW2. Voilà, same blade height moved toward the table's center.

[Mark Singer]

Lou,
That is a great machine! It complements your other machines well! I have the TechnoMax elite S jointer / planer/mortiser and it is strong in all the areas...Great choice!

[glenn bradley]

Uh-oh, Jim's gone poetic on us! Very nice rig Lou and thanks for the many pics.

[lou sansone]

Like any new tool, this nuance of the 260D does take a little time to adapt to. However, having adapted to it, I find it to be a major advantage of the saw. When doing fine cross-cut work, I find having the blade toward the front of the saw is a real plus. Combined with the slider, it gives me a greater feeling of control over the cut and better visibility for my aging eyes. When working panels, placing the blade toward the rear of the table allows me to take advantage of the increased table area to support the piece before it encounters the blade. Finally, if I really want the blade in the center of the table I simply rotate the turret to switch from the 16" WW2 to the 12" WW2. Voilà, same blade height moved toward the table's center.

hi bill
the 260 is a cool saw, no question. I agree that given some more time with the saw, I would have climatized to it as well. You have one of the very best conditioned ones out there. mine had a couple birth defects and that also contributed to my trade to the tecnomax.

btw ... we are still waiting for the shop tour !

lou

[Ed Kowaski]

Such an exceptional shop, slider and all. Excellent Lou, just excellent. :)

[lou sansone]

Lou, I went through the same agonizing search in 2005 and ended up with General's sliding table. Though it has an outrigger, the table only comes to within 8" of the blade, so ripping is limited.

What did your machine cost? What is the total weight of the equipment?

Gary Curtis
California

hi gary
these can be had for ~ $8k ( not including tax and shipping ) and they weigh in at about 1600 lbs. For me the heavier the better for machines. this one is plenty heavy. Just the same, I would love to have a martin that is in the 3000 lb range. maybe someday

why don't you post some photos of the general and let us know how you like it, and why you went with it.

lou