Glue for furniture

[Merrill Herring]

I wanted to get some input on glue. I know this is fairly basic, but this forum has been great. I do mostly furniture made from solid hardwoods. I use mostly bisciut joinery with no nails or screws. I need something the is strong, and at the same time will not leave a glue residue or line in the joint, and cleans up easily. Is this asking for to much?

[Lee Schierer]

I would recommend any of the yellow carpenter type glues.

Make sure your board fit together well with out calmp pressure. If there are gaps while the boards are dry there will be visible glue lines when the glue dries. Good grain selection for adjoining pieces will minimize the glue joint visibility.

The key to a good joint is getting enough glue to do the job and not so much that clean up is a problem. A light film on one side should be sufficient. When you apply pressure otthe joint you should get pin head sized droplets as squeeze out. Any more than that is wasted and any less will lead to a poor bond.

Keep a wet cloth handy and clean up the excess glue before it sets up on the wood. When you sand the glue up take care to sand all surfaces. If you apply stain and see a glue spot, let the stain dry and resand the entire area.

[scott kinninger]

I would not recommend Tightbond II, glue creep is a problem with that stuff.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Most polyvinyl will allow some creep and thus resulting glue joint showing over time. Chair makers like epoxies 'cause it creeps less and has phenomenal shear strength.

Hyde glue is also superb for creep resistance and it's only a tad less strong than epoxy.

[Mike Henderson]

The glue most woodworkers use is the yellow PVA, of which Titebond is probably the most popular. There are other choices, such as epoxy, urea formaldehyde, and polyurethane.

Epoxy is very strong and has gap filling properties but is expensive. Can set as quick as five minutes or as long as 18+ hours, depending upon which epoxy you choose. No creep. Generally cleanup after set by scraping.

Urea formaldehyde is also strong but you have to mix it and the formaldehyde is a problem (try not to breath it). It is also slow setting so you usually need to clamp it for 12+ hours. No creep. Generally cleanup after set by scraping.

Polyurethane is strong but it foams if you use too much and it stains your hands black. It's also more expensive than PVA. Sets about as fast as PVA. Very little creep. Generally cleanup after set by scraping.

PVA is ready to go out the bottle, is relatively low cost, and is very strong. It also set quickly. Some creep. Generally cleanup after set by scraping. Can also be "lifted" off after it skins over but before it completely sets.

Some people object to PVA because of its creep, but some creep is good - it allows for some difference in seasonal wood movement of the two pieces glued together, especially if you are gluing some wood cross grain (that doesn't mean three feet of cross grain glue!).

Creep is a problem where the wood is stressed, as in laminate bending, so other glue is usually chosen for those applications.

So, what I use (and I think most other people also use), is PVA for general work (like panel glue ups), and specialty glues for specialty work.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

What Mike said in his last paragraph...

[Dennis Peacock]

I use a lot of Hide Glue and White Glue. The white glue holds just as well and does not express severe glue creep like yellow PVA. My favorite is liquid hide glue. :D

[Jim DeLaney]

...My favorite is liquid hide glue.

Mine, too, and my favorite liquid hide glue is a product called "Old Brown Glue." It's more of a semi-liquid, actually, but turns to a full liquid when it's warmed to about 80° or so. Easy to use. NNo creep. Nearly invisible glue line, assuming parts are properly fitted. Plus, it's reversable/repairable with a bit of heat and moisture applied.

Do a Google search on "Old Brown Glue" to find the (one and only) vendor for it.

[Tim Wagner]

has anyone used a glue called Gorilla Glue? I have not tried it yet, but was going to next time i need to glue something. I saw on a DIY show (forget which one) that it was good stuff, and very strong. I too always used the yellow stuff.:D

[Mike Henderson]

has anyone used a glue called Gorilla Glue? I have not tried it yet, but was going to next time i need to glue something. I saw on a DIY show (forget which one) that it was good stuff, and very strong. I too always used the yellow stuff.:D
Gorilla Glue is a brand of polyurethane glue. It's been around for quite a while and has some advantages and some disadvantages. You don't want to use too much on the joint - it'll foam on you and make a mess.

Buy a small bottle and see how you like it.

Mike

[Jesse Cloud]

First, don't worry about the glue being strong enough. All modern glues are stronger than the wood they hold together. We tested this recently, edge glued two boards with yellow glue, clamped for 20 minutes, then took a hammer and banged on the joint. In each case, the joints held and the wood broke.

Another thing you can try is finishing before glue-up. The finish will keep the glue from soaking it and it can easily be removed with a damp cloth. Tape over any surfaces that will need to absorb glue before you apply the finish.

[Ben Hobbs]

I use white or yellow glue and not the type II or III. Future repairs need to be considered. If the glue joint is irreversible, then the piece will be trashed just trying to disassembling it. I also like the off the shelf readiness.

[Carl Eyman]

I have sort of followed the fads. That is, 30 years ago I used white pva, when the yellow came out, I changed to that, then to type II and for special applications epoxy, resorcinol, and polyurethane. Last fall I had an unwelcome chance to evaluate them. all of the furniture that is shown on my oft mentioned web site (eyman.org/furniture) with the exception of the Secretary was in my son's house in New Orleans at the time of the hurricane. While flooding was not an issue half the roof was blown off and not covered at all for 3-4 weeks and not repaired for 3 months. With no heat or A/C the moisture levels must have been horrendous. Plaster came down big time. Yet none of the furniture seems to have been damaged at all. What does this prove? That it doesn't make any difference what kind you use?

The one piece I was most concerned about was the dining table. Its top has no aprons to keep it flat, but it still is flat. Of course that isn't a function of the glue used - just blind luck, I guess. The dining chairs were glued with epoxy for the most part so they were of less concern.

[Howard Acheson]

has anyone used a glue called Gorilla Glue? I have not tried it yet, but was going to next time i need to glue something. I saw on a DIY show (forget which one) that it was good stuff, and very strong. I too always used the yellow stuff.:D

First, let me say I am not a fan of the poly glues primarily because I have found no advantage to them over standard PVA glues when gluing wood to wood joints except for gluing oily, exotic woods. "Creep" is much less of a problem but there are other adhesives that are creep resistant such as plastic resin and hide glue. I'm sure there are other opinions however.

That said, like any PVA glue (white or yellow) the poly's are no stronger than the wood itself--and may be weaker if they are not used correctly. They cure by a reaction with moisture but many use too much adhesive and moisture. Excess moisture increases the reaction but shortens open time--one of their claimed benefits--and results in excessive foaming and a weaker joint. If the wood is at a moisture content of 10% or more, additional dampening is probably detrimental, not helpful. There are now PVA glues with extended open time. In fact the white PVA has virtually exactly the same open time as the poly. The yellow PVA was formulated originally to respond to woodworkers who wanted a faster setting adhesive. Strangely, some poly glues are now being marketted that have a shorter open time and faster cure because some wood workers have complained about the longer clamp time required for the original polys.

Some poly adhesives are certified to meet the ANSI Type 1 waterproof standard which means they can be used for totally submerged applications. However, for normal, non-submerged outdoor use, a type II adhesive will work as well.

While "gap filling" they fill gaps with foam which has no strength. The adhesive expands as it cures tending to force glued surfaces apart so tight clamping is required. They also require that the clamp pressure be maintained for much longer than most other adhesives.

It contains hazardous materials and should be used in a ventilated area and kept away from skin if you believe the Material Safety Data Sheet. If it gets on your hands, only time will will remove the stain.

Finally, they cost much more than other glues and IMO, do not offer many advantages over less expensive adhesives.

[glenn bradley]

Scott, wht PVA do you use instead of Titebond II? It is about all I have ever used and could be having problems that are not just my inexperience(?).

Thanks!

[Dave Richards]

I like epoxy and use if for a lot of gluing. I buy resin and hardener in gallon jugs and dispense it with pumps. I have a slow and a fast hardener so I can choose working time based upon ambient temperature. As it comes out of the jugs it has the consistency of syrup or slightly thin honey. It can be thickened with a number of different fillers to make a gap filling adhesive. Wood flour, white flour, glass microballoons and fumed silica are the fillers I use mostly. With fumed silica it can be mixed thick enough to become thixotropic. It won't sag. Epoxy doesn't like a lot of clamping pressure which can be good when clamping odd shapes. Often tape gives enough clamping pressure.

Epoxy doesn't stick to plastic so you can reuse the mixing container. Clean up with uncured epoxy is done with white vinegar. Once it starts to kick off there's a period when it is kind of rubbery and can be trimmed with a sharp knife or chisel.

If squeeze out is likely to be a problem, dry clamp the parts. Cover the joint with plastic packing tape and slit along the joint with a sharp knife. The squeeze out ends up on top of the tape and can be quickly removed.

When I use PVA glues I dry clamp the joint and rub paraffin along it. Then the squeeze outends up on top of the paraffin. I don't wipe at it. I just let it bead up and harden. After the glue has hardened a bit, it comes off quickly along with the paraffin using a cabinet scraper. No worries about glue soaking into the wood and preventing the stain or finish from soaking in.

[Bob Smalser]

Read this, Merrill:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822&highlight=glue

The Titebond PVA glues have only one good application in heirloom work, and that's edgejoining in layups of panels that'll never be under load. Otherwise it is either subject to creeping under load as long as years after the piece was made, and it's not an easily repairable glue for when those corner joints eventually break.

Plastic resin is an excellent GP joinery glue for furniture as it has the cleanest glue lines and can be repaired using epoxy, and easily-renewed hide glue remains the standard for round tenons, although some chairmakers report good longevity using thickened epoxy.

[Teri McCarter]

Gorilla Glue is worse than the expanding foam insulation in a can. I bought some cause that was what I saw the carpenter use on my kitchen cabinets in our new house. I barely used the stuff and it expanded forever. Won't use it on any parts that show ever again.

[Bob Smalser]

Gorilla Glue is worse than the expanding foam insulation in a can. I bought some cause that was what I saw the carpenter use on my kitchen cabinets in our new house. I barely used the stuff and it expanded forever. Won't use it on any parts that show ever again.

Don't throw it away.

Gorilla and Elmers poly's work fine, but they need tight fits and relatively high clamping pressures. They weren't formulated to fill gaps, the foam is misleading. Their niche is wet wood in outdoor applications. They'll make outdoor furniture out of KD-19 cedar fence boards or framing lumber where even epoxy will not.

The other good thing about them in panel layups is if you time the cure so the joint is strong but the foam still soft, you can run the panel thru the thickness planer without scraping the glue lines....a real time saver.

[Teri McCarter]

Thanks for the info! Wasn't planning to throw it out cause that stuff wasn't cheap.

[Larry Norton]

Please be very careful where you store Gorilla Glue if you have pets. Dogs seem to like the taste, but it is very hazardous to their health. When they eat it, it foams and expands just like it does with wood. I have seen pictures of dogs with huge "growths" on their bodies.

At first I thought it might not be true, but I have read more than one article about it. There were pictures of a Jack Russell Terrier that were pretty bad.

[David Rose]

Bob,

I'm a bit slow, but you are getting my attention. :eek: What would you recommend (by brand please) for an indoor general purpose furniture building glue. I think you are going to say "resourcinol". Our ACE Hardware is gone, so I will have to order whatever I get. Highland Hardware carries URAC 185 (I think it is). I am a slow worker (shelf life) but can heat my shop, so...

David

[Bob Smalser]

What would you recommend (by brand please) for an indoor general purpose furniture building glue.

I think you are going to say "resourcinol".

Highland Hardware carries URAC 185


Urea Formaldehyde Plastic Resin made by Weldwood or DAP. A brown powder mixed with water. Jamestown and Ace carry it. An inexpensive glue.

Resorcinol is a 2-part, a powder mixed with a catalyst. Ugly glueline, fussy to use and a boatbuilding, not a furniture glue. It's largely been replaced by easier-to-use epoxy except in gluing difficult woods like White Oak.

URAC 185 and Unibond are improved UF glues with gap-filling properties Weldwood or DAP doesn't have. It's a 2-part powder with catalyst. More expensive.

UF glues have long open times, excellent gluelines and don't creep. The down side is they need 70 degrees and up to 12 hours of clamping time, plus they have a 1-year shelf life. They can be easily glued over using epoxy in repairs.

[Mike Henderson]

Urea Formaldehyde Plastic Resin made by Weldwood or DAP. A brown powder mixed with water. Jamestown and Ace carry it. An inexpensive glue.

Resorcinol is a 2-part, a powder mixed with a catalyst. Ugly glueline, fussy to use and a boatbuilding, not a furniture glue. It's largely been replaced by easier-to-use epoxy except in gluing difficult woods like White Oak.

URAC 185 and Unibond are improved UF glues with gap-filling properties Weldwood or DAP doesn't have. It's a 2-part powder with catalyst. More expensive.

UF glues have long open times, excellent gluelines and don't creep. The down side is they need 70 degrees and up to 12 hours of clamping time, plus they have a 1-year shelf life. They can be easily glued over using epoxy in repairs.
Unibond is a great glue, but if you decide to try it, only buy as much as you can use in maybe six months. I don't know if it was time or storage temperature, but I had some older Unibond where the liquid catalyst became so thick I couldn't pour it from the bottle.

Mike