Phyllis Meyer How about a laser update

[Keith Outten]

Phyllis,

How about an update on your laser engraver problems. As I recall you received parts to install. How is your engraver doing now?

.

[Joe Pelonio]

Don't ask, Keith. . . let's just say it's not over yet. Maybe pm her.

[Phyllis Meyer]

Hi Everyone!

I have a running laser, and will fill everyone in on all the facts and I am waiting for some "experts" to guide this so all of us can make informed decisions when it comes to buying lasers, warranty info., technical support...This forum is a wonderful support and also being monitored by the laser manufacturers! I will be honest and explain the situation if anyone would like! I will only post when I feel it will be helpful. At the moment we are dealing with the fact that we have spent a lot of money, worked very hard to build this business this year, obtained some excellent clients in the last two months, and couldn't deliver the products on time resulting in loosing a major client, and looking like fools when we did deliver to the rest because of the laser being down! We also compensated for the late delivery (because we believe in taking care of our customers)!

I realize you all don't have all the facts but to make a long story short right now, we are learning some tough lessons in the business world! We did rely on this one laser (the normal number a new business starts with), that we paid a lot of money for and we have had 2 breakdowns (of the same problem). We were told that perhaps we should have purchased another laser and spare parts at the time of purchasing our brand new laser! How many of you would have purchased if you were told that from day one? Would you have also known which parts to ask for at the time of your purchase? To be fair to Epilog, they have made good on shipping the parts overnight and us being able to be up and running! They keep reminding me that they have done what they say they would do! The communication along the way has been the most frustrating! They did not test the original parts that we replaced a month ago, so they are not clear on the true problem. It appears to be the reader head, (2 breakdowns same problem within a month concerns us)!

No-one can help in regards to us loosing clients (that we desparately need), I know it is not anyone's fault, it is just an awful feeling to promise to deliver a product and then not be able to make good on that promise! We were told that we should not worry about the laser not running properly and not to do the "what if it goes down again" routine. Would any of you feel good about that? We are positive people, but something is not right here and we are not laser technicians! If we were a few years into this business I think the customers would be a bit more understanding, this is an 8 month old operation that we have put our heart and soul into (oh yeah the $$$$ also)! Any suggestions would be most helpful, we do appreciate this forum and the hard-working folks that purchased lasers because they believed that laser engraving has a market! I did praise Epilog on last month's situation, (check out one of the posts I did and Epilog's message). For all of you considering which laser...please understand the warranty, tech support, when breakdowns happen...and ask questions! We were also told that our expectations were a bit high with the purchase of our laser! How high are yours when you spend the amount of money it takes for a laser and everything else that goes along with starting a business?

Sincerely,

Ron & Phyllis Meyer

[Keith Outten]

Phyllis,

I'm sorry you have experienced so many problems and it seems the timing is as bad as it could get. I own an Epilog Legend 35 watt machine, mine has been reasonably reliable with only two out of warrenty hardware problems. Neither failure came when I was in a high production mode so I didn't experience any loss of customers or late delieveries. Epilog was quick to diagnose my problems and get parts to me, faster than I could install and test my machine as I was in the middle of a very large CNC job at the time.

I wonder if we could setup a cooperative system that would be helpful in these kinds of situations? Basically a list of those who have resources available and would be willing to share equipment time in an emergency. This would be especially helpful when there is another engraver located within a reasonable driving distance.

If I had to purchase two engravers just to have some assurance that I would be able to meet my deadlines I would dump my engraving business and stick with CNC routing, which is more profitable anyway. I have found that the two machines complement each other very well and often combine routing and engraving in the same project. If my engraver became unreliable I would have to reconsider the dual machine kinds of projects.

Keep your chin up and keep us posted on your progress and by all means let me know if I can be of assistance with any projects. I have plenty of machine hours available on my laser these days, my shop work is primarrily CNC routing and Dye-Sublimation right now.

.

[Bruce Volden]

Phyllis,

I'm sorry you have experienced so many problems and it seems the timing is as bad as it could get. I own an Epilog Legend 35 watt machine, mine has been reasonably reliable with only two out of warrenty hardware problems. Neither failure came when I was in a high production mode so I didn't experience any loss of customers or late delieveries. Epilog was quick to diagnose my problems and get parts to me, faster than I could install and test my machine as I was in the middle of a very large CNC job at the time.

I wonder if we could setup a cooperative system that would be helpful in these kinds of situations? Basically a list of those who have resources available and would be willing to share equipment time in an emergency. This would be especially helpful when there is another engraver located within a reasonable driving distance.

If I had to purchase two engravers just to have some assurance that I would be able to meet my deadlines I would dump my engraving business and stick with CNC routing, which is more profitable anyway. I have found that the two machines complement each other very well and often combine routing and engraving in the same project. If my engraver became unreliable I would have to reconsider the dual machine kinds of projects.

Keep your chin up and keep us posted on your progress and by all means let me know if I can be of assistance with any projects. I have plenty of machine hours available on my laser these days, my shop work is primarrily CNC routing and Dye-Sublimation right now.

.



That is a EXCELLENT idea Keith!! Anyone joining the co-op would be doing the work at the quoted cost of the degraded co.?? There is not much worse than losing customers. I nominate you to "set things up" beings it is your idea:) I ended up with 3 laser systems to "keep up" with production, my 2 largest customers have since moved on to other ventures (retirement) so I have these 3 paid for systems mainly collecting dust. But, personally, I like being NOT busy:D :D :D If I can be of assistance let me know.


Bruce

[Ken Garlock]

First off, the only thing I know about operating a laser is using the little pen light laser for teasing my cats.:o I think your experiences go beyond the physical laser machine.

It seems to me that you are paying big dollars for inferior products. Basically, the equipment you buy does not meet or exceed your expectations. BTW, a quality product is a product that meets or exceeds the customers expectations; something that I had drilled into me head at Texas Instruments Inc.

The manufacturer should have a stated lifetime for their components in hours of actual usage, not calendar days sitting in your shop. Even my Scag lawn mower has an hours elapse meter monitoring the motor, and maintenance schedules are based on that meter. Consider that auto manufacturers have a miles of usage guarantee on new cars. Why shouldn't you have a like guarantee on your investment.

Are there user conferences, if so bring up life expectancy at these conferences. From what I have read, replacing a laser tube is an expensive thing. As such, the users should demand a guarantee of X hours beam-on usage as a selling point. Since there is more than one laser manufacturer, it seems that there should be some competition for customers among them.

Remember, a salesman's song and dance does not put one dollar in your pocket. Let them know what you expect. In the long run they will have a better product, hence more sales, and you will be happier.

You are the customer, make sure the manufacturer understands that.:mad:

In the simplest form, everyone of us is either a customer or a supplier in every dialog. Unfortunately, that appears to be a foreign concept to our politicians.:rolleyes:

Like I said at the top, I don't know the workings of your machines, but I do know that you have made significant investments and are not getting your monies worth.

[Ed Newbold]

That is a EXCELLENT idea Keith!! Anyone joining the co-op would be doing the work at the quoted cost of the degraded co.?? There is not much worse than losing customers. I nominate you to "set things up" beings it is your idea:) I ended up with 3 laser systems to "keep up" with production, my 2 largest customers have since moved on to other ventures (retirement) so I have these 3 paid for systems mainly collecting dust. But, personally, I like being NOT busy:D :D :D If I can be of assistance let me know. BruceI'll second that idea! I think the co-op thing would be a boon to all when stuff hits the fan, like equipment failures, or in my case, since I only have 1 machine right now, huge orders that swamp me with work.

Let's go for it!

Thanks,

[Keith Outten]

Ed,

Let me give this some thought. We already have a Laser Engravers and CNC routing list that would serve as a Master list for Co-Op Members. We just need to add another field to the list to identify those who are participating.

Possibly we could coordinate bulk buys of material purchases, software upgrades and share volumn discounts. It's worth some thought.

Anyone else have ideas? Interest?

By the way i am way behind publishing an update to our engravers and CNC list. I will try to get everyone added to the list this weekend and post the new web page update. Sorry for the delay, I have been working on the new SMC portal page and of course our fund drive for the last few weeks. We will have a link on the new portal page and I hope to add a link to everyone's web pages when the new portal page is online. We average 547,000 hits per day so the list should get lots of exposure....I told you folks that I had plans for our Engravers and CNC List :)

Phyllis, we haven't forgotten you....is there anything we can do to help you out right now?

[Keith Outten]

First off, the only thing I know about operating a laser is using the little pen light laser for teasing my cats.:o I think your experiences go beyond the physical laser machine.

It seems to me that you are paying big dollars for inferior products. Basically, the equipment you buy does not meet or exceed your expectations. BTW, a quality product is a product that meets or exceeds the customers expectations; something that I had drilled into me head at Texas Instruments Inc.

The manufacturer should have a stated lifetime for their components in hours of actual usage, not calendar days sitting in your shop. Even my Scag lawn mower has an hours elapse meter monitoring the motor, and maintenance schedules are based on that meter. Consider that auto manufacturers have a miles of usage guarantee on new cars. Why shouldn't you have a like guarantee on your investment.

Are there user conferences, if so bring up life expectancy at these conferences. From what I have read, replacing a laser tube is an expensive thing. As such, the users should demand a guarantee of X hours beam-on usage as a selling point. Since there is more than one laser manufacturer, it seems that there should be some competition for customers among them.

Remember, a salesman's song and dance does not put one dollar in your pocket. Let them know what you expect. In the long run they will have a better product, hence more sales, and you will be happier.

You are the customer, make sure the manufacturer understands that.:mad:

In the simplest form, everyone of us is either a customer or a supplier in every dialog. Unfortunately, that appears to be a foreign concept to our politicians.:rolleyes:

Like I said at the top, I don't know the workings of your machines, but I do know that you have made significant investments and are not getting your monies worth.

Ken,

Your right on the money with your observation. I asked Epilog about adding an hour meter to their machines, I got the impression they didn't like the idea.The warranty on a car is based on time/mileage I see no reason why an hour meter couldn't be driven by the laser tube and record laser time. Most pay as much for their Laser Engravers as they do automobiles and I would never purchase another car with a 12 month warranty again or with low mileage coverage.

.

[Bob Keyes]

I fear this may be the door for our Chinese friends to enter the market. I have a Chinese 60 watt laser that is really nice. The software is really great. It is TRUE that there is no service and no training. You are pretty much on your own, but you only pay $5,000 or so for what our folks are selling for close to $20,000. I don't think it will take them long to figure out where the soft spot is and explore it. If they can put an operating machine on the floor for $5,000, just a few more bucks will set up the supplier network they need to compete.

I hate to see this happen, but it is unavoidable I fear.

[Phyllis Meyer]

Hi Everyone!

Thanks Keith, and all who have offered advice, help...from the bottom of my heart I thank you! Our machine is running right now and we are filling our orders. I truly love the idea of a network (already suggested that to Epilog this morning), and they say they can't give out their customer's names. I understand that, but I will work on my own to find all laser engravers in the State of Wisconsin! It probably starts here! This is a good lesson to learn, we are learning every day! I am over-whelmed by the folks that have offered their machines! I will write more later, off to deliver some items! Have a great day!

Sincerely,
Phyllis:)

[Mike Null]

Keith:

Coincidentally, I had just sent Phyllis a PM one minute after yours posted suggesting she find a local competitor and work out an arrangement. I also volunteered to help out if logistics permitted.

So as soon as you figure out a way to do this I think I'd be interested in participating.

I guess this is an appropriate time to suggest a forum within the laser forum to deal with manufacturer issues. From what I can gather buyers are somewhat timid with these manufacturers and they shouldn't be. There are two mfrs who seem to be having more problems than the others. A forum where these problems could be documented and kept on file might serve to assist new buyers in the decison making process and might make the manufacturers more responsive.

[Mike Shauer]

Ken: You are right on. Seems like far to many manufacturers want to take your money but want little responsibility for the poor design of their machines.

Keith: Count me in! I will help out anyway I can with however needs it. Also with the bulk buying/ shared volume discount thing.

Now that said I due live in Canada but I am just an hour away from Sumas WA. where I keep a postal Box.
Cheers, Mike

[Keith Outten]

Keith:

Coincidentally, I had just sent Phyllis a PM one minute after yours posted suggesting she find a local competitor and work out an arrangement. I also volunteered to help out if logistics permitted.

So as soon as you figure out a way to do this I think I'd be interested in participating.

I guess this is an appropriate time to suggest a forum within the laser forum to deal with manufacturer issues. From what I can gather buyers are somewhat timid with these manufacturers and they shouldn't be. There are two mfrs who seem to be having more problems than the others. A forum where these problems could be documented and kept on file might serve to assist new buyers in the decison making process and might make the manufacturers more responsive.

Mike,

I will be discussing this with Aaron Koehl this weekend, Aaron could create a database that is html accessible that we could use to document hardware problems. The search function here is also an option and does work well when the proper keywords are included in messages. I'll let you know.

.

[Bill Cunningham]

Ken,

Your right on the money with your observation. I asked Epilog about adding an hour meter to their machines, I got the impression they didn't like the idea.The warranty on a car is based on time/mileage I see no reason why an hour meter couldn't be driven by the laser tube and record laser time. Most pay as much for their Laser Engravers as they do automobiles and I would never purchase another car with a 12 month warranty again or with low mileage coverage.

.

What I find hard to beleive, is that function is not in there 'now'... The display on the Epilog already tell you how long each job takes, and even the cheapest of laser 'printers' keep track of the page count.. If the job time is displayed, why is it not 'accumulated' in a novram or something.. I 'personally' think there is a code that can be entered from a diagnostic tool of somekind (maybe even the front panel in a keyin combination) that 'will' give you the accumalated time.. If it's not in there, 'someplace' then I personally feel the designer was an idiot...

[Joe Pelonio]

Now that said I due live in Canada but I am just an hour away from Sumas WA. where I keep a postal Box.
Cheers, Mike
Mike, does everyone in BC have a postal box in Sumas? I have sold a couple ofo things on E-Bay that have been Canadians with Sumas addresses.

Keith,
Some of us here in WA have been doing this in an informal way. I've given jobs to another member when I was down, and sent a customer to another member when I was too busy to handle it. There have also been seversal "false alarms" when I had people ready to help out if needed. It really is comforting to know that there are others to help keep a good customer in times of equipment failure or just a huge workload. I'm all in favor of the co-op idea.

[Aaron Koehl]

Sounds like a good idea to organize some threads. I'd prefer a sub-forum under this one, however, so we can still have all the editing facilities and such built in to the software here.

[Mike Shauer]

Morning Joe, Good to see you are almost running again. We missed that storm this time, I had the generator ready but only lost power for an hour or so.

Now the postal box thing, there are so many company's that will not ship to Canada that it almost a necessity. Amazon is one that I buy things from that won't ship here and the prices are sometimes half what I have to pay.

The customs thing is really quite easy, give them the receipt, pay 7% PST & 6% gst and your off. Haven't pay duty on anything in quite a while. That said if you try without a receipt CDN customs will turn you back untill you find one.

Cheers, Mike

[Keith Outten]

Aaron,

We need to sit down and discuss the Co-Op idea at great length.

.

[Patrick Cooley]

Keith, all,
I love the ideas.
When I started my business, my 1st customer was/is a high volume manufacturer. I knew I couldn't afford 2 lasers, but I made a deal with another laser shop about an hour away to cover me if anything would happen to my machine. I then made sure my jigs I built would fit in their machine. I have yet to take them up on the offer, but I have been close a couple of times.
As I'm in seach for my next laser, a database of peoples problems would be extreamly helpfull.
Happy Holidays and thanks to everyone for making this forum so GREAT!
My only wish is that I had more time to contribute.
Thanks again.
Pat.

[John Esberg]

Here's my 2 cents,

I'm certainly interested in the Co-Op idea. I'd really like to see what we could do with this concept. In my area I don't have much advertised competition, which is nice but it also means I don't have much help for backup either.

NOTE FOR KEITH OR ANYONE WHO CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN:

We need a product/service rating system. I'm begging. Please help us bring it here. No one has set up a system for this to help us out in our shopping and resources. Something that could be accessed by all would be perfect, but rated by registered users to keep it clean would be best. We could use this not only to keep a good list of who's having problems with thier lasers,but also for anything else that is usable for us.

DAK

[Keith Outten]

John,

The Co-Op and rating system are two separate services. Both are a very high priority but I am working on the portal page right now as it is important as well.

So many projects so little time :)

Anyone else have some time to take on a project?

.

[Ray Mighells]

Count me in for the Co-op idea my machine and I can be pretty much at your service when the need arises. I'm heading South and West in a couple weeks and will probably be gone until next April.. by the time I get back you'll probably have it up and running, but count me in for when I return.

[Bob Tate]

Keith, if you need help, I have time. Please let me know what I can do to help.

[Keith Outten]

Bob,

We need to establish the parameters for our database to document laser hardware problems. In all fairness we would need everyone to register even if they have never experianced any problems, this way the percentages are accurate. Each parameter would represent a database field so it will take some thought to establish a set of fields that will allow us to document problems. There can be a general comments field but most should be very detailed based on accurate keywords like "CO2 Tube Failure" or "Power Supply Failure", etc.

If you have web design experiance I could use some help with the new portal page.

.

[Bob Tate]

Hi again, sorry, no web design experience. If I can help in any other way I will be glad to do so. If you need to establish a collection point for the data, I could do that. Let me know if there is anything else you want me to do.
Bob

[Rob Bosworth]

In theory the Co-Op page could be very useful. In practice, very few forums work that way. Look back through the files on this forum. If someone has an ax to grind against one company, they tend to heap stuff (replaced word) on that company, representative, product at every opportunity. So in essence, flaming from a valued forum member/ participant or stuffhead (again substituted word) is really only a one sided representation of that particular problem.

I am trying to think of an instance that won't make someone start to FLAME me. (Oh that's right, I'm in sales, I'll just make one up.)

A customer calls in on a Saturday morning and leaves a message that their machine is dead. They turn the switch on and nothing happens. They have a bunch of product to run over the weekend because they are working a regular job during the week. Let's say I don't get the message until Monday morning, not because I am avoiding helping a customer, but because I happen to have a life that weekend. (OK, since I am making this up anyway, let's say I actually got away for the weekend, somehwere warm, somehwere exotic. Snap out of it!) So this customer who is in distress does not get a call back. They turn to this trusted and reliable forum and ask for advice. Of course the advice given by all of our members is very helpful, except for the two or three "quality" members who do not like me, or the particular system this machine owner purchased. So of course they have to stir the pot and say things like "You should have bought this Zercom Machine because I bought one, and have never had any problems with it. And it cost $ 4.95 to buy, and you paid WAY TOO MUCH for that piece of junk that Bosworth pawned off on you! By Monday morning, the customer with a problem with their machine, is in a panic and has to go back to their other job. Now it is Monday night before I get a chance to talk to them. Try this. Try that. Click this, click that. Open up this panel and tell me if this light is on...... So on Tuesday I send out a new power supply to this owner. They get it on Wednesday, but won't have time to install it untill 11:30 at night. Message the next day - I put in the power supply, and still nothing. This goes on for two weeks. Parts being flown all over the place. My local Pac N Mail guy is starting to dream of putting in a pool. In the mean time, the flames are getting higher. I no longer log onto this forum because the heat is so intense. Finally, I say let's start over. Let's start at the beginning. Do you have power at the wall outlet. I don't know. Plug something into that outlet and see if it works. It does. Good, now let's check the power going into the machine. Wait a minute, it doesn't look like the plug was plugged in. Let's plug it in and see if this makes a difference. HEY IT'S WORKING. Click.

Do you think anyone will ever go on a Forum and admit that they had been down for two weeks, and had bad mouthed and had listened to bad mouthing of one of the most wonderful people in the whole world, because they unplugged the machine so they could plug in the vacuum. Then when they were done vacuuming, they unplugged the vacuum and forgot to plug the machine back into the outlet. They just pushed the machine back into position, and made my life miserable and very expensive with shipping charges. If they bothered to ,mention anything more on the forum, it would be to quote Emily Lattela, "Never mind."

I really like these kinds of stories. As usual, I come out as the hero:D

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

[Phyllis Meyer]

Hi Bob,

Please check your personal messages! We believe that more good will come out of our situation to help others that would ever go through this! We did have everything plugged in (in case anyone was wondering...Ha, Ha). The Co-Op suggestions, and the ideas for new laser buyers looking to compare Quality, Tech Support, Warranties, Parts Shipping, Sales, and of course the good old problems being solved in a respectful manner! Lessons are being learned, and being accountable for the lasers being sold is what it's all about!

Thanks to all who are checking on the laser update...

Sincerely,

Phyllis Meyer:)

[Joe Pelonio]

One key thing with the coop idea is location and timing. When I was down I sent work to someone that was within a short drive, and could have sent it to someone with more time available but that person had no local material supplier so it would have required shipping both ways and there was not enough time for that. Let's face it, when we need help the most is a sudden failure while already struggling to meet a deadline. I would like to say though that there has been great cooperation already among members helping each other to get work done in my experience.

[Keith Outten]

Rob,

Your still new around here but you might notice that we don't have Members flaming other Members here.

I think we can put something together that has valuable information that most would find an excellent reference resource...not just complaints. Our goal isn't to make any manufacturer or individual look bad, that would be immature and wouldn't serve any purpose. Factual data that engravers can use to make an informed decision is worthwhile and certainly more valuable than a sales brochure.

.

[John Esberg]

Rob,

You are correct in saying that a few people "flaming" against a company is a bad thing. I don't think any of us want to see that come into play here. It's really very surprising that we don't have such frequent issues on this forum as I've found in other places.

This is a great reason for having a "rating" / "reporting" system here for us users. Statistically 2 or 3 people covering a subject is not always very accurate. On the other hand, 10 to 100 people rating a product/service would be highly accurate.

Till later,

DAK

[John Esberg]

Keith,

I've got to ask, what would you need done to get the problem/rating system up and running?

DAK

[Dave Fifield]

Great ideas Keith. The laser manufacturers will improve their support and product features much faster to meet our needs and wants if we do this right.

I've built a few websites in my time - mostly using WYSIWYG editors - so just wondering if I'd be qualified to help you with the task at hand? Here's a little bit of off topic personal trumpet blowing history - I coded and put up my first website in late 1992 (for National Semiconductor Corp.) - as I recall, it was the 93rd website on the web. I put it up just about the time that the first Yahoo! web directory came up (Yahoo! was just a single webpage of all the websites it knew about in the world at that time - no need for a search engine!). If only I'd followed my gut instinct and gotten out of semiconductors and into web search engines at that time.........(shakes head and weeps into his drink)..... :(

BTW, even though I'm not a full time professional laser user, I'd be willing to help out any fellow SMC'er (local or otherwise) who runs into a problem with production schedules etc.

:Dave F.

[Brent Vander Weil]

I am all for a Co-Op

I am in a sort of fortunate position at the moment as I do not depend on my laser for a primary sorce of income... yet... I would like it to, but I am kind of a big chicken as far as diving in head first.. I bought my laser by cashing out a retirement account that was sitting idle and would net me about $200 after I was old enough to retire (age 39 now)... so I convinced my wife that I figured I could probably make more money then that account would yield if I bought a laser now and started growing my business slowly while I was still working full time as a computer/network tech... I have to admit... laser is a lot more fun that computer teching... I am just not sure I could maintain the income level that I currently have doing just laser... I have tried doing some research on the income potential, but have stopped short of posting a direct request here (until later in this post)... but the concept of a co-op arrangement has definately turned my head and has my attention... if the costs dropped and the market is solid who knows where things could go.

and if anyone would care to privately share there income stats I would really appreciate the info and keep it in strict confidence... I may be going at this thing all sideways and backwards... but I figure this is the place to gain perspective and direction...

Thanks for letting me ramble and I do appreciate the forum very much.

Brent

[Keith Outten]

Keith,

I've got to ask, what would you need done to get the problem/rating system up and running?

DAK

John,

Hardware rating system
To establish the parameters for our database to document laser hardware problems. In all fairness we would need everyone to register even if they have never experienced any problems, this way the percentages are accurate. Each parameter would represent a database field so it will take some thought to establish a set of fields that will allow us to document problems. There can be a general comments field but most should be very detailed based on accurate keywords like "CO2 Tube Failure" or "Power Supply Failure", etc. We would need to design a web page form that would be filled out by anyone who wishes to report a problem or condition that would feed an SQL database.

SMC Portal Web Page
For the new SMC Portal (Main) web page I need someone to do the design, graphics and html work for the portal itself. I have started the page and have most of the vBulletin links done but this is just scratching the surface. This page will be the new SMC index with links to everything including our laser engraving and CNC routing list, list of suppliers, Co-Op Program, etc.

The Co-OP Program
Aaron Koehl and I need to sit down and discuss this one in detail to see what resources we have and the best means of implementing them would be. As soon as we have a rough outline I will be asking for comments/assistance for this project.

.

[Roy Brewer]

I really like these kinds of stories. As usual, I come out as the hero:D

Rob,

Very well done!

[Rob Bosworth]

Brent, I'll share another little story about all the cashola that can be made with one of these machines. Last week, I was behind on getting a machine to a customer. It was niggling little thing after another. Talk to Tech Support, order parts, wait for parts, install parts, not fix the problem, talk to Tech Support, order parts,........................ And it is taking way too long. So I offered to run some product for this very patient customer on a different machine. He said he 21 anodized aluminum plates that he needed to have by Monday morning, and it would take the pressure off. So he sent me the plates, and e-mailed me the files. 10 to 8 in the morning on Friday, the FedEx man dropped the plates off. No problem. I would read my e-mails, write a few snappy responses to a few forums, and wander out to the shop and run his parts. Oh yea, I forgot that I had to wheel another machine into the shop and get it running. So I worked all day to get these 21 pieces made. Had to do a little speeding to get to Pac N Mail before they closed on Friday night. Each piece took about 10 minutes each to run. So say I charged $1 per minute for engraving, I would have made $210 for a full day's work. Doesn't sound like enough, OK, so say I charge $2 per minute for engraving, I made $420 for a full day of engraving. In truth, I made $0 per minute for the engraving, and I made $0 for the day and luckily I didn't get a speeding ticket on my way to Pac N Mail. Actually, it was kinda fun doing something really different. I usually spend my days trying to make these machines work. It always amazes me how much work it is for me to do an engraving job. So I always have a little more respect for you guys who do engraving for a living.

And it shows me that I am better off leaving the engraving to you professionals.:D

[Keith Outten]

Rob,

Can I assume that you work for ACCESS Business Solutions? If so you receive an hourly rate or salary to compensate you for your time. Even if your company sells engravers you are compensated by the sale somehow.

When someone who runs a laser engraver for a living has a machine that isn't working their income drops to $0.00 and they are not earning any money to pay the $20,000 for the machine that probably paid your salary. Add to that they may be losing customers that they spent money to advertise, market and time to establish a relationship...and the clock is not your friend.

If this happens very infrequently and is short in time span it is tolerable. If you have a new machine and have had to endure several hardware problems you have a lemon and it needs to be replaced. Should the laser manufacturer agree to pay me $65.00 per hour to work on the machine they sold me it would help...or send a tech to my place of business and fix the dang thing. If I purchase a new truck for my business and it breaks down I don't expect the dealer to send me the parts and a manual so I can crawl under the hood and fix it myself.

Get Parts, Install Parts...imagine the poor end user that has to do the same with little knowledge, and tech support on the phone trying to help, it makes for a very stressful day, week or month. I hate to be told that "We are going to have to send you more parts to install". This means two more days down and even then it may not solve the problem. Add to that someone says "We need your credit card number before we can ship the parts to you", a slap in the face when you just dropped 20 grand for a machine that doesn't work.

ARG!


.

[Uma Duffy]

I'd be interested in a co-op for buying purposes and a database of problems sorted by machine/manufacturer. Our first problem with our Epilog laser surfaced within days of receipt and the second malfunction within days of warranty expiration. We will definitely need a second laser as the business grows.... but what brand that will be may be contingent on the results of this survey. This site has proven itself to be our most valuable online resource. Thanks to everyone who participates and so generously shares their wisdom and problems!

[Rob Bosworth]

Dear Keith,

We own this company, ACCESS Business Solutions, Inc. I do not get paid unless we make money. I did not make any money on Friday! 0. No Dollars. And I paid for Fed Ex Next Day Priority Service. So I made less than $0.

Why would your experiences with a broken machine be any different than my experience with a broken machine? Why would your experience be any different than anyone elses experience with a broken machine?

We too pay for machines. Our business is buying and selling used laser engraving machines. If I spend a day engraving, I do not make any money, and I lose time away from fixing more machines and selling those machines.

The point of my previous post was that my hat is off to those who are professional engravers.

[Paul Perkinson]

I am extremely interested in the whole idea. It would be great to help each other out when we can. I feel I've already gotten so much from this forum that I'll never be able to repay. Couple of thoughts...we should really nail down in advance (to the extent possible) what a member that is suffering from equipment breakdown is expected to pay a fellow member for their work. I think most of us would be willing to help at a rate that would not have us losing money, but still allow the person in trouble to meet their schedule and hopefully still make some profit. It's just that the rates in different areas seem to be quite a bit different so it would be good to address that in advance if possible.

Something that I think would help every single one of us pretty much every day is the whole co-op idea concerning materials. If we were truly able to take advantage of the buying scale the members of this forum bring to the table...well, let's just say it might be a really good thing - for quality also. Problem is that it takes administration and a "central point" or points.

Lastly, there are some of us that have the 4' x 8' format lasers and can therefore help out when orders come in for projects that exceed the capabilities of the cabinet machines. It would be really great if we could have already established rates or guidelines in place so everyone could feel comfortable bidding on projects beyond their equipment's physical capabilities. This could also be of use to someone who has an 18" x 24" needing someone with a 24"x24" capability.

I realize there are many issues to overcome with this, but how great it would be if we could pull it off.

[Joe Pelonio]

Dear Keith,

We own this company, ACCESS Business Solutions, Inc. I do not get paid unless we make money. I did not make any money on Friday! 0. No Dollars. And I paid for Fed Ex Next Day Priority Service. So I made less than $0.

Why would your experiences with a broken machine be any different than my experience with a broken machine? Why would your experience be any different than anyone elses experience with a broken machine?

We too pay for machines. Our business is buying and selling used laser engraving machines. If I spend a day engraving, I do not make any money, and I lose time away from fixing more machines and selling those machines.

The point of my previous post was that my hat is off to those who are professional engravers.
It sounds like you did that job as a goodwill gesture to help one of your customers, that sort of thing is unusual and certainly nice to hear.

I think the difference though is that my laser may go down in the middle of a $6,000 job and have a deadline because the products are wholesale for a customer to sell at a trade show on a certain date. I can not only lose that $6,000, but also the materials that I have paid for, and my customer loses close to double that amount in sales. Then I may lose the customer to future orders. Since I also do signs I still have revenue coming in without the laser but many people depend on it for all of their income.
One day with no profit is no big deal, as long as you can make it up by doing more the next day or on the weekend, but losing a good customer because of equipment failures can be a serious financial blow.

[Keith Outten]

Dear Keith,

We own this company, ACCESS Business Solutions, Inc. I do not get paid unless we make money. I did not make any money on Friday! 0. No Dollars. And I paid for Fed Ex Next Day Priority Service. So I made less than $0.

Why would your experiences with a broken machine be any different than my experience with a broken machine? Why would your experience be any different than anyone elses experience with a broken machine?

We too pay for machines. Our business is buying and selling used laser engraving machines. If I spend a day engraving, I do not make any money, and I lose time away from fixing more machines and selling those machines.

The point of my previous post was that my hat is off to those who are professional engravers.

Sorry Rob, I didn't mean to pick on you specifically AND I haven't lost any customers or missed a delivery date yet so I wasn't speaking about myself specifically. I do receive lots of Private Messages and emails from people who do have serious problems asking if I can help. I feel their pain and I know it could happen to me but I have been fortunate. I have been able to help a few of our Members here at SawMill Creek and I am glad to do what I can.

I believe we can organize our efforts to help each other in many ways. Data tracking of hardware problems and of machines that have a proven track record are just a couple of things. Bulk purchasing of materials can be a major cost savings. Collectively I expect we would represent a major purchasing organization so deep discounts would be easy to establish but would be offset by shipping fees. Paul mentioned equipment capability some have that might be an asset to many. I would rather outsource a job to someone like Paul and receive a small fee than lose the job to another competitor. Basically it would be a large group of small sub-contractors and it makes sense to me.

I have purchased tools and materials from Members in our Classifieds Forum here and felt secure buying from a Member of The Creek when i might not have under other circumstances. The point is that long term relationships are already part of our Community, I see no reason why these relationships couldn't expand to business, marketing, sales and purchasing when the opportunity presents itself.

:)

[Rob Bosworth]

I think we are straying from the original topic. But .............

Hey Joe, I disagree with your assesment. Why would your losing money be any different than my losing money. From a selfish standpoint, I think my losing money is more important to me than your loss of money. I could go into all kinds of reasons on how my losing money effects me more than your losing money, but when it comes right down to it, losing money sucks.

[Phyllis Meyer]

Thanks for everyone's input! I have learned so much just from the posts! A newbie here still amazed by the generosity of all of you and the expertise you provide to us new folks! I believe there will be great changes in the problem solving areas, (from the laser manufacturers), and more knowledge to us as laser users, and also with the co-op possibilities!
Have a great day from a laser gal in the Northwoods (hoping the Packers beat the Vikings tonight and go on to have that spot in the playoffs...I am a dreamer):) :D !!

Sincerely, Phyllis

[Brent Vander Weil]

Oh Phyllis... Packers??? Being Vikings fan since I was old enough to know what football was (and enduring all of the heartache that goes along with it...) that hurts... But you do have a reason to be a Packers fan, so I'll cut you some slack :-)

I hope all does work out for you.. and I do believe this forum can allow us all to find many resources that are of value to us all...

and personally I bought my laser from Rob and had an issue just a couple days after I got it... Rob and Rob Jr. were AWSOME.. and after the three of us could not locate the problem THEY found a rep at Epilog for me to work with...

This (among many other advantages) is the kind of thing we can organize and share in a co-op environment.

Turns out.. IF one of those itty bitty magnets in the plexi lid falls out... the laser acts like the tube crashed :-) only it was the laser thinking the top was open :-) I located the magnet in side the laser and glued it back into is hole... I have been engraving w/o a hiccup since.

The Creek has been the most valuable tool to date... and that reminds me I need to send another donation off to Kieth to keep things rolling...

Ya'll take care and Happy Holidays.