Bench Planes questions: LN vs. Clifton, LV, etc.

[Perry Schmidt]

OK, I see a lot of info on planes - Lie Nielsen is great! So are Clifton. And so are Lee Valley.

But rarely do I see them talked about in context of each other. So some questions:

1) How does a Lie Nielsen compare to a Clifton?? Anyone have both?? (If I'm going to spend $300 on one good plane, what's the difference between these two? I'm quite sure I'd enjoy both, but - loaded question of the day - which one is better?)

2) I've read LN and Clifton don't need to be 'tuned up' (except for blade sharpening) when you get one. What about a Lee Valley?? Besides blade how much do you have to do to get them in excellent shape? (Lap soles, tune/flatten frogs??)

3) How does Lee Valley compare to LN/Clifton? I'd expect the later two to be better given the prices. But how much better??

And the odd-ball question: I've got a new Stanley's that I'm tuning up and getting into good shape. It really work nice after some work. I'm always curious how the Stanley knock-offs compare, given it's harder and harder to find Stanley - new or old at a good price. Anant reviews I've seen are pretty bad. But can't find any on Kunz? How do Kunz planes compare to an old Stanley? Do they need a lot of work to get in good shape, and do they stay in shape after the tuning? Are they pretty reasonable or are they to be avoided (like Anant). I don't see many people selling them, so I question their quality, but it's not based on any reviews or facts that I can find.

Thanks,

Perry

[Clint Jones]

Buy a LN if you are looking to buy a high end plane.
Kunz and Anant dont come close to any of Stanley's early planes especially the Bedrock series. Come on why would LN base all of their planes on the design of the Bedrock planes? Whatever you do dont buy Anant or Kunz for a little more you can get an older Stanley throw in a hock blade and it should work out for you.

[Mark Singer]

The Clifton's and LN's are usually based on old Stanley designs...The LV low angle series is very good! LN has some classics that are hard to beat....the 60 1/2....the 4 1/2.....the 103 low angle block...the large shoulder plane....the #9 miter plane and the 164 are all favorites.. BTW the LV medium shoulder plane is a favorite too..My older Stanleys rarely get any use these days and they are tuned and ready... I have a Clifton #4 and it is a fine plane also...

[Mark Sweigart]

Ok, here is my general understanding.

LV and LN are all ready to go (other than honing) out of the box.

I've heard of some people getting Cliftons that were not ready.

LV's main goal seems to be 1) bang for buck, and 2) improved designs. LV planes will usually have some interesting improvements to their planes compared to the traditional styles. Some people like this, some don't. Also, looks are last on their list (particularly traditional). You will not see large amounts of brass, high degree of polishing, etc. on a LV. This allows them to keep the price lower. Again, some people like this, some don't.

LN seems to want to blend functionality and beauty.

In all honesty, the biggest difference between the two on bench planes (user wise) is the handles. LN uses a traditional Stanley design, whereas LV are more upright. Again, some people like one, others want the other style.

In all, it falls into which do you prefer, and how much do you want to spend.

As for fuctionality, they are both great. Some people really love LN planes, and others LV. For these two camps I've seen 2 planes where people will cross to the other camp. 1) Many LN lovers really like the LV shoulder plane. It has many features that are missing on the LN. 2) Many LV lovers like the LN block plane. It is smaller than the LV and more comfortable for some.

Also, there are planes that one company makes, but the other doesn't. So in those cases your choice is made for you. Also, the sizes of the bench planes vary a bit between the two.

mark

[Hoa Dinh]

...You will not see large amounts of brass, high degree of polishing, etc. on a LV.
In other words, an LN is polished everywhere, an LV is polished where it counts.

...Many LV lovers like the LN block plane. It is smaller than the LV and more comfortable for some.
Agree with what LV calls "block plane."

If you like smaller block plane, check out LV's apron plane.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Perry,

My suggestion is to try to get your hands on the planes you are thinking about buying and see wich you like the feel of best. As far as function goes I think any of the high quality (LV, LN and others that cost considerably more)new planes will work very well.

I would not waste my time on the cheaper new planes for what they are asking for them. If you go to some of the recommended used tool sellers you can get an old Stanley or Miller Falls for the same money.

[Doug Shepard]

Well I'm going to get flamed and plug a bit for the Anant. I've only got their jointer and a couple of spokeshaves. I think the jointer was $90 and frankly I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything wrong with it. It does what it's supposed to do, has a flat sole, good fit/finish, and works well but it aint no LV or LN. For $90 I think it's a pretty decent deal. At the time I bought it, the LV bevel up jointer wasn't out yet, and I just couldn't swing the cost for the LN at the time. Then I decided to get the LV BU Jointer when it came out. It's significantly better than the Anant in lots of ways and I'll probably sell the Anant when I get around to it but I dont consider it a POS. Though I've got quite a few LN planes too, I can't give you a 3-way comparison among the jointers.

[Perry Schmidt]

Thank Mark! That's really what I was looking for. I can't justify a lot of good planes, so want to get one or two really nice ones. And although I'd love to use all three side by side, I can't find even two in the same place at the same time.

So you did a very nice/good comparison of the three. And (no surprise) sounds like with a few exceptions LN 'is the winner'! I was a bit surprised to hear that some Clifton's aren't ready to go out of the box. But that's why I asked - I thought they were.

Of course I have to get one more 'cheap' plane to fill in my 'line of Stanley-style planes'. Hence the Kunz question. I'll probably keep cruising E-Bay :)

Thanks -

Perry

[Pam Niedermayer]

I think LN's and LV's are about equal in effect. LN's are more traditional in appearance, LV's are more evolutionary; but I don't think you can go wrong buying either company's wares.

Note that I don't consider either of these company's planes as "the best out there." There are too many competitors making custom metal planes, infills or not, to say nothing of all the woodies being made by vendors like Clark & Williams and various Japanese blade makers.

The LN are easier to sell on ebay, often going for almost purchase price.

Pam

[Larry Rose]

I have several L-N planes and a L-V router plane along with some of their spoke shaves (yeah yeah I know, It's a terrible disease) and they all work beautifully and are a joy to look at and hold. Out of couriosity, I bought a #3 Anant. It works ok after a lot of fiddling, but not a good as older Stanleys. I would either save up for L-N or L-V ( I have no experience with Clifton) or if that is out of reach now, Get some old Stanleys and learn to tune up. FYI, the only reason I have chosen L-N bench and block planes is that they look more traditional. I'M sure L-Vs would work just as good.

[Derek Cohen]

Perry

Anything that is said is always going to be an oversimplification. In addition, there are a number of other brands of planes that will satisfy an enthusiast as much, or more, as a LN, LV or Clifton.

Of these three, the LN and LV stand out as the better constructed, if only because they are built of ductile iron. The Clifton is built of grey iron, like Stanley, which is fragile.

The quality of construction and finish on the LN and LV is the same. In some areas the LN will lead (such as the use of brass), while in others it will be the LV (their plane blades are ground to a higher specification).

The obvious association is that LN do a grand job of reproducing classic Stanley designs, and that they take these to a level of excellence. And that LV are about innovation, with a more modern interpretation and an emphasis on function over form.
Both companies produce superb planes in their price range, which is similar.

When I think of LN, I think of bevel down planes. When I think of LV, I think of bevel up planes. In these areas each rules the other. I have a fairly large range of planes from both companies. The latest addition is a LN #4 1/2 Anniversary. Superb. Then again the LV LA Jack and BU Smoother are also classic planes, among the best of the best.

So, when you are making a decision which brand to choose, you really need to be thinking about the style of plane you will enjoy using. Try them out first.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Perry Schmidt]

Perry
So, when you are making a decision which brand to choose, you really need to be thinking about the style of plane you will enjoy using. Try them out first.


Thanks Derek - that seems to be the concensis - both are very good and it's more personal preference more than anything as to which one you'll like.

I'd love to go somewhere where both are available to try. That seems to be the problem though - noone 'in town' sells LeeValley planes. I'll keep looking though.

Thx,

Perry

[Rod Wolfy]

I started out with a couple of Stanley 'contractor's grade' planes - #4 & #5 and a block plane All did poorly and I was turned off to handplane use for a couple of years.

I then came across an article on how to tune one up. I did this on the #4 & #5 and got the soles flat. I read up on sharpening and did this. They worked better than out of the box, but not by much. The block plane was hopeless. It has an adjustable throat, but the pieces were off by 1/32". Too much to flatten. I read that if I replaced the blade and chipbreaker with aftermarket ones (Hock, etc), they would work much better. The cost would have been around $70-$80. I decided to spend the money on an 'upgraded' product.

I went to a shop and looked at Clifton's. I didn't know much at the time. They looked an awful lot like the stanley - same curve to the body, etc. They were not beautiful to look at - IMO. I saw some Anants and Kunz, and they were very rough - more so than the stanley.

I ordered a LN 4.5 smoother. When I took it out, I was very impressed by how beautiful it looked. I took it to a piece of curly maple and got wispery thin shavings - Right out of the box! I took it apart and admired the clean machinings. I was hooked on handplanes. I bought their two block planes. Impressive to look at and use.

I then got a LV low angle jack. Great plane too. But IMO, not as nice to look at as the LN. I bought a couple of their spokeshaves and made a Maloof inspired Rocker with them. Great Tools! I broke one recently and spoke with Robin Lee, the owner of Lee Valley. I shipped it back and they fixed it. I was extremely impressed with their customer service. Without a doubt, the best I have received from any tool company.

If you want a cheaper one to tune up, Anant recently came out with a higher quality line - similar to the 'contractor's grade' Stanley, but they looked a little better. "Kamal" is the name. I saw that Highland Hardware is carrying them.

For the time & money, I'd go with LN or LV, though.

Rod

[Mark Sweigart]

So you did a very nice/good comparison of the three. And (no surprise) sounds like with a few exceptions LN 'is the winner'!

Actually, I prefer LV over LN. I was just trying to stay neutral in my comments to not sway you one way or the other, and just give you the pros and cons. But of course, this can change with experience and needs/desires.

There are 2 places you can try out LV planes: 1) LV store in Canada, 2) WW buddy who has one. There are no retail locations in the US (that I am aware of), and they do not use 3rd party distributors for most of their stuff to keep costs down.

Oh, and just so you know, while the LV apron plane is smaller than their typical block plane, it does NOT have an adjustable mouth, which can be a helpful feature.

mark

[Jake Helmboldt]

Perry, I will echo some of what has been said. I was at LN last month and their tools are very nice, and they adjust so nicely there is virtually no fiddling and backlash to get a nice thin shaving.

I'd like to try some of LV's stuff too. FWW had an article last year where the Clifton was the only one of these three that did not have a flat sole (and which needed to be lapped).

That said, you will find a post of mine from a couple weeks ago asking "how to justify the price" on a LN? While they are very nice, on my limited budget I can't spring for them right now (unless I go without other tools in my inventory). So I have been buying used Stanley and cleaning/tuning them up with very good results.

One way to get a better deal and get more planes is to look for auctions where the seller has listed a couple together. It seems fewer people bid because they want one or the other, not both.

I got a #4 & #5 (both pre WWII) shipped for ~$45. Both are in nice shape and required only minimal fettling. I did put a LN iron in the #4 and opened the mouth slightly to get it to fit and I can take nice thin shavings. I recently got a #7 for $35 shipped that is no beauty but which only has minimal surface rust and the jappaning isn't in great shape. But that is only cosmetic and can be cleaned up. There are plenty of good deals, but you need to be willing to spend some time and elbow grease fettling them. Some people don't want to do that. While I don't "want" to, it is the economically viable option for me, and I get to learn more about the planes in the process.

Look for auctions that show the sole of the plane and the mouth. Pitting of the sole and chipping around the mouth are things to avoid, as are cracks anywhere.

JH

[Bryan Lord]

Any of the 3 planes will give you good service. From what I 've seen, the LN and LV only need honing out of the box. My #7 Clifton needed lapping and the finish is not the equal of the other two. Good plane but #3 in asthetics/tuning.

I have a #3, #5, block plane, and scraper from LN (wouldn't trade any of them). I have 2 LV shoulder planes (indespensible tools) and the Clifton #7.

I have purchased a Stanley #4 Bedrock off ebay and 2 infills. All 3 of the planes needed tuning but now are as good as they every were (put in modern blades though). There is a guy that advertises on ebay that will do electrolysis and new japanning for $25. His work is phenomenal, especially at the price. He also makes knobs and totes. Of course the purist will complain about destroying the collectors value, but I buy tools to use. The collectors value is an issue for my heirs after I croak:D

[Steven Wilson]

I have a fair number of Clifton Bench planes (#3,#4,#5,#6,#7) that I purchased prior to a major price increase a few years ago. At that time they were significantly less expensive than the Lie Nielsen and represented a good value. So, I built my plane aresenal with Clifton bench planes and Lie Nielsen speciality planes (scraper plane, LA block, LA smoother, etc.). The LN's were very well set up out of the box and only the blades needed some honing. The Clifton's took more work with some slight tuning of the body parts (a little emery cloth here and there) and more substantial work on the blade. However, the Clifton's all tune up well and they all took less than an hour to get into fine cutting shape. Unfortunately, with a Clifton #4 only $10 less than a Lie Nielsen #4 I would chose the LN as the LN's are a better engineered plane. I would still get the Clifton 410 shoulder plane though, it's a real nice size plane that works very well.