dovetails - for a beginner

[Howie French]

Well its about time I learn to cut dovetails without the aid of my router.
Any saw recommendations for a beginner ? Also,what else would you recommend ? specific chisels ? (I have a few). I do have a marking guage.
what about a layout tool/Jig ?

any suggestions would be appreciated.

Howie

[Mark Singer]

Either a western saw this or a Japanese saw....I switch off . a set of decent well sharpened chisels. A good marking knife.....this can be a carving knife. I use a bevel gauge to set to mark the angles. It is very easy to make a dovetail marker..Sawing accurately and accurate scribing are the key ingredients;)

[Owen Gregg]

Hi Howie,

I had a very similar question not too long ago and got some great responses. It's the thread titled, "Hand cut dovetails" in this forum.

[James Mittlefehldt]

For a discussion of all you ever really want to know about dovetails but were afraid to ask, see Ian KIrby's book The COmplete Dovetail, which should be avaialbel pretty much at any on line book source and it is reasonably priced.

After digesting that, be prepared to change your methods as you watch others, I think that right now my method is a mixture of stuff from several sources but I started with Ian Kirby.

Besides he does tails first which is correct of course. Looks about for any disagreement LOL.

[Jim Becker]

For marking, you can use a commercial product, such as those sold by Lee Valley or make something with some scrap wood. I started with the latter and bought the former for convenience. Both work fine.

The saw needs to be a rip format; western (push cut) or Japanese (pull cut). I chose a western format saw (Adria), but many folks really like the Japanese style saws...and find them easy to cut with. Starting the cut is always the hardest part of the process and when you read the tests/reviews of different saws like what was recently published in FW, that's something that is part of the evaluation. Some folks have shown me some very nice "vintage" saws that they found for a a very nice cost and had them sharpend up.

Chisels...what matters most is sharp. Those with edges that are beveled a little sharper can get into the corners better, but most basic chisels will work fine. I ruined my cheaper Stanley's a long time ago when I unknowingly tried to sharpen them on a grinder, so I bought some Ashley Iles chisels from ToolsForWorkingWood.com about a year and a half ago when I started playing with cutting things by hand.

One other thing...pencils are nice, but a real scribing tool is better for accuracy. Build or buy, use it for the real line and only use the pencil to highlight. Much better results in my short experience...

But the bottom line is that you just need to do it.

[Don Bullock]

...
Chisels...what matters most is sharp. Those with edges that are beveled a little sharper can get into the corners better, but most basic chisels will work fine. I ruined my cheaper Stanley's a long time ago when I unknowingly tried to sharpen them on a grinder, so I bought some Ashley Iles chisels from ToolsForWorkingWood.com about a year and a half ago when I started playing with cutting things by hand.



Jim,
Do you have any recommendations as to which would be a good starter set for me? Thanks.

[Clint Jones]

Howie,
This link may help.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/c/dchaynie/howto/dovetails/hand_cut_dovetails.htm

[James Carmichael]

The ol Marples blue chips from Lowes are a good starter set for about $20, though I believe they're now labeled "Irwin" and the handles may not be blue any longer. This is a set of 4 from 1/4 - 1" widths. For dovetails, I would fill in with a 1/8 and 3/8 also.

Sharpening will be the key.

[Billy Chambless]

The ol Marples blue chips from Lowes are a good starter set for about $20, though I believe they're now labeled "Irwin" and the handles may not be blue any longer. This is a set of 4 from 1/4 - 1" widths. For dovetails, I would fill in with a 1/8 and 3/8 also.

Sharpening will be the key.

I've been trying to figure out if the Marples/Irwin "Pro Touch" that HD carries are basically the Blue Chip with different handles. Instead of the solid plastic Blue Chip handles, these have a rubber grip overlaid onto the plastic.

The fact that this is even an issue for me might be a hint to the quality of my current chisels.

;)

[Chuck Nickerson]

schools of thought for cutting dovetails you choose to follow. Frank Klauz's 'measure nothing', Roger Cosman's 'measure a little', or Andy Rae's 'measure, measure, measure' approach.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Chuck, you mean someone measures more things than Cosmo? No lo credo! :)

Pam

[Eddie Darby]

Any saw recommendations for a beginner ? Also,what else would you recommend ?
any suggestions would be appreciated.
Howie

If I were just starting out learning to cut dovetails by hand, and I wanted them to do the very best I could, then I would check-out Rob Cosman's web-page.

http://www.robcosman.ca/

I've seen him take a raw beginner, and have them cut professional looking dovetails in no time flat. His approach is well thought out and concise, so you don't spend all day doing one dovetail. Since he talks about specific tool requirements, and how they are set-up, as well as how they perform, as being key to getting great results, I would hold off on buying the tools until I saw the DVD, most specifically the saw.

I've seen him several times at the woodshows doing demo's and I am always amazed at the work he produces. The shows get to be a lot of the same old stuff 'year after year', but I always am glad to see Rob Cosman doing his demo 'year after year'.

Rob Cosman also offers dovetail classes sometimes as well, and can be seen once in a while at Lie-Nielsen headquarters in Maine doing demos. At the woodshows he offers a dovetail package that includes the DVD's and tools, at a show sale price.

I would say that trying to do dovetails with the wrong tools, is a sure fire way to produce bad results. The better the tool, the better the job......but you have to know how to do the job!

I hope this helps.

[Jim Becker]

Do you have any recommendations as to which would be a good starter set for me? Thanks.

Othere here are better experts than I. I chose to invest in the Ashley Iles 6 pc set...they are two to three times more than the Marples mentioned but I was ready to move up to some nice tools. I also tried the Hirsh, but found the handles on the AI chisels more comfortable...for me.

[Mark Singer]

Another very important thing is light. To clearly see the scribe lines a halogen light on a stand is very important. The beam is directional and from an angle place the knife scribe in shadow allowing it to be seen. Once it is seen it is easier to saw on the "waste" side. Confidence comes with practice...I really enjoy working at a high level of concentration doing detailed work....it leaves the rest of the world behind and I can get very focused. You really should not be interrupted, or you will be removing pins from the pin board and tails from the tail board. :confused: ...It happens. I think fine joinery is rewarding in many ways and when I show Ryan or someone how....and they make a nice looking joint,,,,you see this look...."I did that?" That is a good feeling! See lamp link below..

http://oemsite.com/ebay/110dt.jpg

[Pam Niedermayer]

Jim,
Do you have any recommendations as to which would be a good starter set for me? Thanks.

I strongly recommend that you don't get a set, as you only need one or two, especially to start, maybe 3/8" (9-10mm) and, if you'll do tiny dovetails, maybe 1/4" (6mm). This way, you can blow the whole wad on a couple of really decent chisels, such as the Japanese Shinogi and/or very thin (http://www.japanesetools.com/tools/tasai_chisels/push.php ), which are perfect for dovetails.

Pam

[Mark Singer]

On the tail board you will only need smaller chisels to make the pin sockets...When you make the tail sockets on the pin board...you need a longer chisel to span between pins....so you really need a variety. If you try to make several cuts along the same line with a narrow chisel the line will be a bit jagged...so a 1/2" and 3/4" are needed as well..IMHO

[Don Bullock]

Thank you all for your advice on chisels. You all have been very helpful.

[Hank Knight]

Howie, I agree with Pam and Mark. Don't spend a lot of money on a whole set of chisels, especially if you need to buy a saw. IMHO, the saw is the key to hand cut dovetails. Buy a good one and learn to use it. You can get along with two or three chisels at first. What size depends on the kind of work you do. You don't need a chisel wider than the widest tail you're likely to cut. I find that I use three sizes most often: 1/2", 1/4" and 1/8" (for cleaning out tight corners on half blinds). Larger work might call for a larger chisel. A 3/4" would be a good next addititon, but add them as you need them. You can buy several really nice chisels, like Ashley Iles or some of the Japanese ones, for what you'd pay for a whole set of lesser chisels, and adding one or two at a time later won't break the bank.

Then, look for a good dovetail saw. I really like the Lie-Nielsen one, but I recently bought a Japanese rip dozuki from Misugi Designs that I like a lot too. You don't need to get hung up on what style saw to buy - Western or Japanese. Both work well and both require getting used to. Pick one and go with it. Just buy a good one, whatever you pick. Oh, and you'll need a marking guage. There are many out there and most will serve you well for dovetails.

Good luck and have fun.

Hank

[Jerry White]

I ruined my cheaper Stanley's a long time ago when I unknowingly tried to sharpen them on a grinder, so I bought some Ashley Iles chisels from ToolsForWorkingWood.com about a year and a half ago when I started playing with cutting things by hand.



Jim,

I would like to ask for clarification on this part. Are you saying that in the sharpening process, chisel bevels should not be set on a grinder and honed on a stone? I may be reading something into this you did not intend, but seek your enlightenment.

Thanks,

Jerry

[Jim Becker]

Jerry, I ruined them because I basically heated them up with the grinder and turned the edges in to "rubber". These things are not made of HHS...the metal formulations don't like heat. Back then, I didn't know any better. This is not saying you can't use the grinder as a tool for CAREFUL reshaping if necessary, but one must be really, really, really careful to go slow with a light touch and not let the metal get hot. But a grinder isn't the right tool to do general chisel sharpening and honing. There are any number of other methods that are better and safer. Also note that low-speed, wet grinders can have a little more utility in this space, but they are not "finish" sharping tools for most folks...they don't get the edge sharp enough by themselves.

[Jerry White]

OK, Jim. NOW, I understand what you were saying. Thanks for the elaboration! :)